Factcheck.org on Obama's mailer

[NastyRiffraff]

An Obama mailer stretches the differences between the candidates on health care. Specifically:

* It touts measures included in Obama's plan to help low-income individuals buy insurance but fails to mention that Clinton would provide similar financial assistance.

* It says Obama's plan would save the average family $2,500 per year – an estimate provided by experts at the campaign's request – but doesn't say that Clinton estimates hers will save $2,200 per year.

* It also neglects to point out that Clinton's plan isn't the only one that would have an enforcement mechanism for those who failed to purchase insurance. Obama's plan, which would require that children be insured, would need one as well, though it would affect fewer persons.

The Clinton campaign objected to the mailer on grounds that its image of a middle-class white couple is reminiscent of the "Harry and Louise" TV spots that the health insurance industry used to attack the 1993 Clinton health care plan. We see the resemblance, but fail to see the relevancy.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/harry_louise_again.html

It goes on to say that the mailer leaves out a lot of context and misleads those who are not familiar with Hillary's health care plan. It leaves out information on cost-cutting measures and low-income help in Clinton's plan that are similar to Obama's own.

You may agree or disagree with factcheck.org, but historically they've been non-partisan and fair in their analyses.

[still_one]

1. Fine, I'll take your word for it, and Hillary's mailers on Barrack's choice position also misled

However, I don't care what anyone says, I will whole heartedly support WHOEVER the Democratic nominee is

[avrdream]

2. This FACTUAL thread was dropping to page 2 rapidly.

While the vile, gloating, arrogant threads keep bouncing to the top.

What the hell is wrong with this place? Never mind, don't answer.

Thanks for trying to get the facts into DU.

[NastyRiffraff]

3. I figured that would happen...

..but still, I had to try.

[truedelphi]

5. thank you for the attempt.

[sandnsea]

4. Tax cuts are not similar to sliding scale premiums

And Obama is not responsible for promoting Hillary's health plan.

Which goes to show you how fair factcheck.org is - they aren't, whether it's partisan or just eitist stupidity that seems to go with the journalistic terrain.

[truedelphi]

6. thank you for that.

Most middle income Americans are hardly able to keep up with their bills.

Since Hill's plan asks that they also purchase Health Insurance, and then wait it out for the tax rebate or tax cut at the beginning of the next fiscal year - well, it is a nasty business.

Now I don't think she means it meanly - it is just that she came from an upper income family and she just doesn't understand the struggle taht most Americans face.

One reason that I might vote for Obama is because he is so directly tied into the citizenry of Black America - where the middle class gains are relatively new ones and where people will be in his face to help him understand what is needed by Middle America.

Hillary and her circle of wonks are not tied into Middle America at all.

[beachmom]

8. They weren't fair to John Kerry in 2004, that's for sure.

They said he was lying when he said Bush would try to privatize social security.

:eyes:

[karynnj]

27. They also were wrong in challanging the number of bills he passed

largely because they counted only those where he was listed as the first sponsor - maybe because the Thomas system lists 1 sponsor with all other names as co-sponsor. (So, for instance, there were McCain/Kerry veterans bills that McCain's book said were written by the "lawyerly" Kerry were not counted.) (this analysis also ignored amendments added by voice vote or in committee creating the bill.)

[totodeinhere]

7. Factcheck.org on Clinton's mailer.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4734123&mesg_id=4734123

[goodgd_yall]

22. I looked at factcheck's comments on both

Isn't this just your usual campaign shenanigans? One candidate distorts the plan of the opposing candidate and it's up to the voter to research to find out what's true? I support Hillary, but I don't see the big deal about Obama's mailer. They are both giving out misinformation about each other.

[Occam Bandage]

9. That's actually quite favorable to Obama's position.

Its biggest complaints are that Obama says what's good about his plan without mentioning that Clinton's is almost as good, and that he doesn't mention that he requires an enforcement mechanism for children--and neither of those are lies or distortions, but rather are what is expected in advertising. You can hardly blame Obama's campaign for not praising Clinton in their mailers, or for not running attack ads against himself.

And as for the Harry and Louise complaint? "We fail to see the relevancy (of Clinton's complaint)" is not exactly scathing of Obama.

[Alhena]

10. The real issue today is temperment to be president ... these little issues ...

will always arise in a campaign or a presidency. The question is whether the candidate/president responds in a reasoned manner or whether he/she flies off the handle.

Hillary did the latter today, and it wasn't exactly presidential.

[DUyellow]

11. So obama needs to send out mailers about the good things in Clintin's plan? That is stupid.

you are saying that he isn't pointing out things that Hillary's plan does. So he is supposed to campahin for Hillary now?

He does not say Hillary's plan doesn't do it, he says his plan does.

[LadyVT]

12. factcheck.org on Harry and Louise ad:

Factcheck.org 2/4/08: “We agree that there is a resemblance between the photo on the Obama mailer and the TV spots. In those ads actors portraying a white, middle-class couple expressed grave concerns about how the Clinton administration's health care plan would affect them. The ads were part of a $17 million campaign by the insurance industry that was widely credited – rightly or wrongly – with contributing to the defeat of the Clinton plan, and the ads still anger many advocates of broader government efforts to provide health insurance.”

[Occam Bandage]

13. "We see the resemblance, but fail to see the relevancy."

[grantcart]

16. lol why didn't you put the actual concluding sentence of this paragraph in

But so far as we can see, Obama's choice of images in his mailer has nothing whatever to do with the accuracy of the claims it makes, or the accuracy of what "Harry and Louise" said, for that matter.

[ncdem1975]

14. so...

Senator Clinton should send out her own mailer touting the plans of her health care plan. Why would Obama spend a lot of money to say the things his plan would do, but at the same time promote that her plan would do the same. According to your post, Obama's statements about his health plan was accurate. It's just that Sen. Clinton also has a similar plan. If so, Clinton can send out a mailer and talk about her plan. Or, point those things out at the debate. Obama doesn't have an obligation to spend money touting the similarities between their plans. It sounds like Obama's mailer highlighted his plan and then highlighted differences. Now, if the highlighted differences were inaccurate, then I can see an issue.

To put it differently, I'm going for a promotion along with one of my coworkers. There's no way in the world I'm going into the interview talking about how we're the same. Rather, if the question is asked, I'll point out our differences in a way that favors me, but is still accurate. Why campaign for the other person?

[DemGa]

15. This looks an awful lot like the old politics -- what Repukes do

Looks like Obama is a Sham attacking a Democrat this way.

[Bluerthanblue]

19. guess you missed Hillary's NH mailers-

She is a hypocrite for being so incensed at mailings that were less misleading than her own.

Her rage is mis-placed. She has good reason to be angry and frustrated. She doesn't have reason to dump it all on Obama or the mailings.

She has NO right to accuse Obama of "carl rove tactics"- (unless that is where SHE got her idea)

And lost any hope of being seen as credible when she resorted to her twisted call of "Shame on YOU Obama".

She isn't Obama's parent- or 'master'.

peace~

[DemGa]

21. Sorry those are Karl Rove tactics

This is true regardless of what you believe Hillary may have, or not done.

Obama's actions stand alone -- He "says" he is not the "old politics" and yet uses this tactic.

That makes Obama the hypocrite -- a sham.

[Bluerthanblue]

25. no, I disagree- she can't blow her top in 'righteous indignation'

when someone is doing something very similar- (except that Obama's mailings didn't list any false information) to what she has used consistently in this campaign.

And her pretending to have any ground on which to stand and cry "Shame on you" is not only ridiculous, it only shows that she cannot control her temper. Something that has been my own personal issue about her to begin with, and which was only re-inforced by her actions today.

As of right now- I hope like hell I'm never put in the position to vote for her- But if and when that day were to come, I would hope to have enough self-control to do what I know has to be done, no matter how uncomfortable it would make me.

I don't care to put myself or anyone in the hands of people who have anger management problems. I've been there too many times in my life.

Even when Obama was angry with Hillary- he has never behaved this way, acting like a verbally abusive angry parent out to shame their un-ruly offspring.:shrug:

I feel sad for her- but that doesn't excuse her issues, or her behaviour.


peace~

[Andy823]

17. How long have these flyers been out?

I heard that they have been out for some time now, and she knew about them during the last debate, yet never mentioned them. If this is true, the why didn't she address this issue in the debates?

[casus belli]

30. About a month. n/t

[Windex]

18. what about this group?

WhiteHouse.com

It claims to be non-partisan website. They gave a lie detector test to a man who claimed years ago he had sex and did drugs with Obama. The results should be back Monday.

[sueragingroz]

20. Thanks for that.

For me a picture is worth 1000 words:

Check out this link:

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-clinton24feb24,0,3494226.story

[Political Heretic]

23. Kick for fact checks. ~ Obama supporter.

:kick:

I'm not afraid of the truth. Not afraid to try to find facts. Not afraid to concede mistakes from our guy, though with this situation I'm not ready to say that yet.

I'd also like to point out that many of Clintons characterizations of Obama's health care proposals have also really stretched the truth.... not going to call it lies, but it like Obama's it really "spins" the information in a certain way.

[NastyRiffraff]

26. Thank you.

You're one of the good guys here. I wanted to post a non-biased source about this mess.

[Johnny__Motown]

24. Thanks for the Pro Obama post., "stretches truth" is not a lie and "fail to see the relevancy" in

reference to the health care mailer.

Seems like you are making our points for us.



And Hillary's reaction today was clearly uncalled for and Un-Presidential

[AtomicKitten]

28. It focuses on mandates, a relevant, truthful issue.

It isn't Obama's responsibility to tout her programs. He is drawing a distinction, and that distinction is mandates. She needs to put on her big girl panties and deal.

[ErnestoG]

29. So nowhere does the mailer lie. Thanks.