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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:05 PM
Original message
A Challenge to Clark Supporters
Can we make a special effort to be civil with the supporters of Howard Dean? And can we give credit to his grassroots movement for accomplishing extraordinary things in this campaign?

I am not at all surprised that most Dean backers believe Dean is the man who can beat Bush, because they, along with their candidate, have already accomplished the seemingly impossible. They have taken the relatively obscure former Governor of a small New England State and propelled him into a formidable front runner and commanding force in the National Democratic Party. Why wouldn't they believe that they have a chance to carry Dean to victory over Bush in November? I'm not sure that they are wrong either. I just believe that the National electorate and Democratic Primary voters are not all of that analogous, and I believe Wes Clark is both the Democrat most likely to win the General Election, and the best man for the job. So I disagree with Dean supporters, but I have more in common with them than there are differences.

Two candidates have taken most of the heat in flame wars and attack threads, Dean and Clark. That makes those of us who support both men quick to get irritated. I think most Dean supporters will agree that Wesley Clark has run a clean campaign, and that he has generally (if not exclusively) stuck to the high road. I think some Dean supporters will even agree that most of the shots taken in the competition between Dean and Clark for the nomination have been taken by Dean against Clark, though they may not agree that they were "unfair".

So here is my basic point. Wesley Clark has tried hard to stick to the high road in his campaign, shouldn't we do the same in supporting him? It is part of what makes Wes Clark stand out as a candidate. We shouldn't be engaged in anything on his behalf that might deny him some of the fruits of that positive and disciplined effort. I would hold ourselves to a higher standard, his standard if at all possible.

This is more than just another appeal for goodwill between Democrats. This has a bearing on the race for the nomination. I believe, at this stage, that there is only one man, Wesley Clark, who is positioned to really unite most of the party behind him while winning the nomination. I don't think Dean can, though he may well win anyway. I know Kerry, Gephardt, and Lieberman would all, to varying degrees, have great difficulty winning the active loyalty of a great many Dean supporters. Other than Clark, of course, no one else has any real chance of securing the nomination (in my opinion). Dean's grass roots supporters are a powerful and wonderful force. Either by backing Dean as their chosen candidate, or another Democrat if Dean loses, they can and would make a huge difference in determining the outcome of November's Election.

The fact that Clark has NOT typically alienated Dean supporters is significant, and a real asset to him as a potential nominee. Yes there are some who seem to detest Clark in Deans camp, but they are a small, though vocal, minority. Clark has "earned his stripes" as a man most in the Dean camp could work for, through the tone of his campaign, the stands he has taken on issues, and by demonstrating that he too understands the importance of a grass roots movement, and is capable of working closely with one.

Unity can not be imposed on the Democratic Party, not this year anyway. Feelings are running strong. We can count on each others votes but not much else. For Clark to win the nomination, more and more people will need to see Clark as the man who can pull the party together this year, and to a large extent, that means appealing to those who support Dean. Not by heavy handed efforts to "convert them", but by giving them the respect that they have well earned through a remarkable campaign. I think we need to follow Clark's lead in this regard.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. MOST of us do.
There are a FEW very, VERY vocal hotheads and idiots in BOTH camps; the fact remains that the vast majority of Dean AND Clark supporters are civil people. :hi:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. I applaud this post!
:hi:
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PatGund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. Excuse me??
Quite frankly, that's what I've BEEN doing all along. I think a lot of supporters on both sides are as well. There's only a few loud-mouths in the various camps that seem to be enjoying taking pot shots at either Dean, or Clark, or whoever.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. You hit the nail squarely on the head
It's a VERY few loudmouths in each camp who, unfortunately, post prolifically. The vast majority of supporters on both sides are quite civil.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. I didn't say we haven't been respectful, did I?
I certainly didn't say you haven't been. So why bother with this post, you seem to ask? Because things are still heating up. Because it is easy to get swept up into angry exchanges. Because it is important, that's all. It doesn't hurt to think this through again from time to time. I agree with you about most supporters of both Clark and Dean. Lately though I just get the feeling that taking the time to say a few justifiably kind words to the folks over in Dean's camp can be worth the effort.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. They are free
Edited on Wed Dec-31-03 06:11 PM by mmonk
to support Dean. I don't attack them nor try to convert them, but I respond to attacks against Clark from some of them that may feel my response is an attack. I like Dean. I like Clark better. And whatever happens in the primaries, we all need to be united in winning the general election.
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LyndaG Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. I agree with ya
I'm really sick of all the infighting. Sooo destructive and self-indulgent.
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Democrats unite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. Very well put.
eom
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. I absolutely agree
That's been my MO from the beginning. Excellent post Rinaldo. We are not at war against anyone else in the Democratic party. I am very much against attacking other candidates, it makes us that much weaker for the general election, every time it's done. We shouldn't be doing the republican's job for them.

I think Clark is the best candidate. If he get's the nomination we'll all be better off in my opinion. However, if Dean wins the nomination I will immediately become an ardent Dean supporter. I would hope that the Dean supporters would behave the same way if Clark were to be nominated.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
9. Is all this effort to be "civil" really worth it?
No matter which Democrat you support, when the nominee is chosen the Republicans are going to kick, scratch, play dirty tricks and run the dirtiest campaign ever seen before. It seems to me the Dem candidates and their supporters would be better off learning how to field the fire now because when the real war comes they'll be better equipped to deal with it.

All this "civil" baloney on this BBS is just that - While I agree no one ought to be calling other posters names, giving opposing candidates a hot foot is reality. Some of the stuff I read in here reminds me of the Mad Hatter's Tea Party - it's just not real.

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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. Happy New Year to all (and check my signature tag)
****
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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
12. Ok Tom. You and Clark are uplifting individuals.
Thanks for a great post.

It's almost 2004...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Democrats unite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. It's comments like that, that start the heat.
Kidding or not.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I guess
that wasn't as gentle as I thought.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. No, you were gentle
It was good humor, but it is impossible to predict what might deflect a thread down a dark and story path.
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Come on
That was funny :)
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5thGenDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Very good
I've worked hard these last ten days or so to be civil (if, I hope, persistent) in presenting both my support of Clark and such information as I can provide (such as re: the Dean brochure the other night) in a straight-forward manner.
I'm tired of the infighting, too. I admire what Dean has done with his campaign model. He and his supporters showed us all a new way to contend with the monies Dopey can raise -- it's the template (or should be) for every Dem candidate.
I also think that just about any of the Democratic contenders can take Dopey to the curb next November. And I know I will vote for Dean if he's the nominee (Andy the Right Wing Republican FORCED that confession out of me last night).
Now, I don't know if I'm taking anybody off my encyclopaedic "ignore" list quite yet. I figure if I can't read 'em, I can't fight with 'em, either. I'm sometimes too quick to look for a slight where none was intended. That proves I'm imperfect, which is a fine thing to know.
John
Finally, I can't shake the optimistic thought that 2004 is going to be better for me personally and, on balance, for ALL of us here at DU. I hope so, anyhow.
Happy New Year to all Democrats and to people of good will everywhere. Especially to those of you who can still read this.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. It is a challenge...
I agree, and generally try not to inflame. But its hard to hold back with some of the attacks thrown at Clark that are quite despicable. Then too our guy is running what may be the cleanest political campaign in years (decades?). Heck thats one of the reasons I can stomache getting into politics this year. Politics was always such a cynical game, but Clark is different. So you want to call the other candidates when they hit below the belt.

Anyways, I think your right we need to follow the example of our great candidate.

cheers to all Clark supporters :toast:
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name not needed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. I can be civil
Anyways i prefer intellectually kicking the shit out of rethugs.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
19. I have made it a personal rule not to post attacks on other candidates...
Dean is my second choice after Clark so I certainly don't want to see him torn down. The juvenile, middle-schoolish bashing of other Democrats is pathetic behavior for adults.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. The Democratic Party is "Family"
When I get together with my extended family around the holidays, I find that there is a wide variety in opinions on which candidate would have the best chance to beat Bush in 2004. My cousin, an old union carpenter, favors Gephardt. My nephew, a young computer expert, gets energy from the Dean campaign. My teen-aged sons love Rev. Sharpton, and say that "he is telling it like it is!" My brother-in-law is impressed with Edwards; I support Wesley Clark.
We can have heated debate. But when push comes to shove, we know that the single most important factor will unify us in the end: we have a common enemy -- the Bush Administration.
My late father used to say that the strength of the republican party was that they always stuck together. We need to do the same thing today. If you are a democrat, oppose Bush, and are active, you are my brothers and sisters. You do not want my boys or nephews sent to the Middle East to kill or die for Halliburton. I do not want your family to suffer that same fate.
Keep the image of the extended human family in mind. We have a relative that is greedy, cowardly, and violent. As a family, we need to let him know he doesn't rule the roost.These personality-disordered relatives try to divide and conquer the extended family. Don't fall for it!
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-03 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
24. I agree with Tom
Up to the point somebody starts kicking us and we have to kick back. I think that's fair. ;)
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