Xerox lost it for her - here are MY thoughts.

[Prefer]

THe Xerox comment was disingenuous and showed her in the a bad light of a pathetic attack.

That's not the kind of politics I care to support.

Sorry Hillary, you looked great, you are a great speaker (even easier to follow than Obama), but your take bad advice, you have the wrong people working for you. We know what we're going to get - big party machine politics from veteran professionals. Very little hope of escaping fro mthe status quo - you are the status quo.

At least with vague promises of hope and change we have a chance to do something progressive. I don;t need for Obiggity to have all the answers. All I need for him to do is be an effective uniter and organizer and that is what he has proven himself to be.

[suston96]

1. Really? Vague promises? How about just talking about accomplishments.....?

Like this on Chris Matthews.....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/19/chris-matthews-humiliates_n_87493.html

Texas State Senator Kirk Watson (D-TX) learned a lesson in preparedness Tuesday night when he was humiliated on MSNBC. Watson was on to talk about his support of Senator Obama alongside Representative Stephanie Tubbs (D-OH), who backs Senator Clinton. Watson has endorsed Obama and writes glowingly of all the things Obama will do for the country, if elected.

But he was unable to answer Chris Matthews most basic demand: "Name some of his legislative accomplishments... name any..." A fantastically awkward mix of dead air, stuttering, laughter and repetition ensued, as Watson could not name a single one. Matthews laid off part way through, it seems at the demand of his producers, but came back around to lay a final blow at the end.

Obama's oratory is in the revival tent category and nearly always lacks detail and substance. But hey, it works, so who am I to argue with 21st Century Elmer Gantry revivalism.

[npincus]

3. Kirk Watson is not the candidate, and his ignorance should not

reflect poorly on the candidate. He certainly embarrassed himself, but unfair to stretch his ignorance of his own candidate's resume to the candidate himself.

[bellasgrams]

5. BO reflects poorly on himself but his minions are blinded by

the stardust. He has made nasty remarks about Clinton and gets a pass, she nor anyone else dare defend her. He stutters and stammers, shouts out his slogans and everyone goes ga-ga. A pathetic candidate for the Democratic Party. When the c--- starts coming out about him his supporters will still refuse to believe it. Oh well, it's only our country and our & our children's lives at stake.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. Bullpuckey. The average Clinton supporter couldn't rattle off a list of her legislation either

Tweety was being a dick to the guy. Olbermann riffed him for it later that night, saying that Tweety probably couldn't name any major legislation passed through the US Senate either.

I have never heard a candidate's surrogate asked about that. Ever. Did you notice that Tweety never asked Stephanie Tubbs-Jones the same thing about Clinton, even though they appeared in the same segment?

[suston96]

30. Uh, the "average" Clinton supporter is not a state senator from Texas surrogating for the candidate.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

32. Don't know many state legislators do you?

They're no smarter or better than you or I and they're busy enough with their own offices, to be expected to follow Congressional proceedings closely.

[suston96]

33. Nah! I only know who my congressman is, Rick Renzi. Don't know much about him...nt

[redqueen]

27. Hilarious.

:rofl:

[PATRICK]

2. A kinder way of looking at this

is to say the politics of negativity does not come easy or skilled to Democrats. Nor is is long rewarded.
Nearly everyone tries it when absolutely necessary, then backs away. That it is feeble, unskillful, outrageous or otherwise has the actual negative of showing political weakness two-fold. One in having to risk such an attack in the first place and two, in doing it badly or provoking more damage than it was worth.

The purpose of negativity is actually not to pulp an adversary but to trigger a media scrutiny or some counter to the rival's momentum. Even a scurrilous attack that loses one support might be "worth" it if it accomplishes that main goal. Even if unforgiven, the tactic earns political respect. But it was weak, didn't work, burnishes the rival's teflon and is only another nail in the coffin. Looking back on some more graceful faltering candidacies(the less chance you have, the more grace comes naturally) one can always see some leanings to try negativity during the last stage. Taking perhaps a cynical look at the whole thing, what she did is not so much outrageous as hopeless and should be forgotten fairly quickly as it deserves. She came into this campaign with strangling fixities she did not weigh heavily enough and soon enough in her favor. The shifting ballast capsized her ship and better now than November because this test shows indeed how vulnerable and poorly defended it was. She, as a person, has performed remarkably well apart from the unfair advantages and disadvantages piled upon her.

[COFoothills]

4. It certainly went over like a lead balloon

But overall I thought the debate was pretty much a draw. Which is a win for Obama since she really needed to make a big victory.

But yeah, she blew it with that line. But scored some good points elsewhere. Pretty much even as I saw it.

[Independent-Voter]

8. I agree

[BklynChick]

6. it also highlighted their generational differences... who xeroxes anymore?

[book_worm]

7. I've been watching the news and listening to Air America and

the thing is both did fine, and I think marginally HRC is the better debator, but many people said that they like Obama because he looks presidential and is unflappable and unlike HRC he didn't go on a negative attack. That xerox moment doomed her, I think.

[AlertLurker]

9. He is clearly "the Xerox Candidate."

Hope. Change. Integrity. BullShit.

There isn't a single idea that he has that he hasn't stolen. His message, his campaign theme, his campaign motto and almost all of his positions are simply watered-down versions of real Progressives' positions.

[Prefer]

13. thats silly

"Hope. Change. Integrity. BullShit.
There isn't a single idea that he has that he hasn't stolen."

hat - are you suggesting that the ideas of hope and change are supposed to be some new original creation?

All a politician amounts to is a mascot, and icon to bring people together. Obama has a broad vision and appeals widely and it brings him success. As a politician he is a success. Of course his platform draws on past themes and ideas. Everyone's does.

I think you are expecting too much in the wrong areas.

[AlertLurker]

17. Obama has NOTHING he didn't steal from someone else.

If it were someone else stealing content with a different message, theme and vision, it would not be so bad.

Obama's message, theme, vision and motto of Hope/Change/Integrity (Yes We Can!)are reduced to so much ridiculous BULLSHIT when you realize that he stole it all, unaltered, from Dennis Kucinich:



Bear in mind, every time you see the word "(Response)" during this speech, what you hear from the WHOLE audience is "YES WE CAN!"


"We are the party of Lyndon Johnson and the Great Society. We are the party of John F. Kennedy and the New Frontier. We are the party of FDR and the New Deal. We are the party of the people. We are the party whose president faced a broken nation--a nation of people without jobs, without homes, without health care, without retirement security--and he exhorted our people to have courage. Seventy years ago, FDR stood before a fearful nation and said, We have nothing to fear but fear itself. And he ignited a nation to reaching its promise and that brought almost a hundred new Democrats into the House. It enabled a sweeping mandate to bring deep, transformational change to our social, our political, and our economic structures.

It remade a government of the people and for the people. That kind of change is needed today. We can empower a new beginning.

Democrats, I remind you that we have nothing to fear but fear itself. We need a new faith in America and in ourselves. Faith that we can change the present condition; faith that we can change the outcome; faith that we can regain the confidence, the optimism, the whole world has identified with America; faith that it is the Democratic party that can once again lead the way to a better day, to a better America, to a better world.

Democrats, Democrats can move this country forward from a condition where of 8 million people out of work to a full employment economy with a living wage for all. If you believe our party can do that, let us tell this nation yes we can. (scattered response "Yes we can.").

...

Democrats can move this country forward from 40 million people without health insurance to a single payer system which provides quality health care for all. Do you believe we can do that? (Response).

Yes we can. Si se puede.

Democrats can move this country forward from underfunded schools, underpaid teachers, and undereducated youths to making education our top funding priority and providing free college education for all. Do you believe we can do that? (Response).

Democrats can move this country forward from a condition where our air, our water and our land is now being ruined by multinational corporate interests; where we can demonstrate that environmental protection is our path to sustaining the life of the planet. Do you believe we can do this as a party? (Response).

Yes we can. Si se puede.


---------------------------------------------
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dnc0203/kucin022203spt.html
Rep.11:46 AM 2/22/2008 Dennis J. Kucinich
Democratic National Committee Winter Meeting
Washington, DC
February 22, 2003

I might just have to post this on every Obama thread today.

[Prefer]

19. So all of those ideas are Dennis Kucinich's and no one else right?

Because your entire premise rests on the assertion that there should be a "real" candidate whose words are all original, and none of the ideas of catch phrases should be thought of or used by anyone else preceding them.

So are you willing to stand by the notion that all of those were authored by and belong exclusively to Dennis Kucinich? Please answer with yes or no.

[AlertLurker]

20. There SHOULD be a real candidate. It ain't Obama.

Obviously, you are having comprehension issues. Here's my main point, though:

If you are running a campaign on INTEGRITY, on HOPE, on NEW IDEAS and on CHANGE, it's pretty hypocritical to do it with a 100% recycled campaign of stolen BULLSHIT. Perhaps he's running as the "Green" candidate?

P.S. I think the "Fear Itself" came from FDR, and I'm pretty sure that the "Great Sociey" came from Johnson, but since Kucinich actually attributes to BOTH presidents in the speech, it's pretty childishly beside the point, though, don't you think?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. 100%?

It was 2 lines, given to him by one of his advisors.

:shrug:

[Prefer]

29. There is definitely a "100% recycled campaign of stolen BULLSHIT"

but it's not one of the candidates', it's one of their supporters... :eyes:

[DS1]

16. FAAAAAKE!

:hi:

[GOTV]

21. I don't care if a candidate steals ideas, as long as he/she steals the good ideas....

... that's all that matters to me - will they bring good ideas into the white house?

[redqueen]

28. Heh... I remember when you used to expend all this energy trashing Edwards.

Guess you had to find another target for your spew.

:eyes:

[MoonRiver]

11. I agreed with her.

Obamaman is an invented political caricature, full of sound and bluster, but with very little substance below the surface, reminiscent of the Wizard of Oz.

[Colobo]

12. You sound angry and condescending towards fellow Dems

who happen to support Obama.

[MoonRiver]

18. I was referring to Obama, not his supporters.

To me, he is the penultimate snake oil salesman. Lots of people fall for this type of con. History is replete with examples.

[XemaSab]

22. Do you know what the word penultimate means?

:shrug:

[Prefer]

14. Yeah, right...

where as other politicians have a lot of "substance"?
Puh-Leez...

[Vinca]

15. I bet when she said "Xerox" candidate there were some people

there who didn't have a clue what she was talking about. She might as well have said "mimeographed."

[GOTV]

24. Haha! Mimeograph? Brilliant! n/t

[AJH032]

23. yeah, right

I'm sure you were totally set to vote for her before the Xerox comment, right? :eyes:

It's a word, people. Xerox. There, now I said it too. I cannot believe people would base their vote on something so stupid.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Yeah, I wonder how much they worked on that line.

I can imagine all the multi-million dollar advisers sitting around a conference table watching soap operas and trying to think of the one hail-mary line they can use to finally turn the tide around.

So then one lackey in the back raises his hand and says...



"How about... change you can Xerox."

Change you can Xerox! Holy shit! That's brilliant!

I was also wondering... Did she now the instant that she used it that she was getting booed? Or did she wrap up the debate, go home, get in the shower, have a warm glass of milk, crawl into bed and THEN realize she'd gotten booed after her big line?

So I re-watched it, and right in the middle of the boos for a half second you see her recoil in shock. Oh yeah... she knew it then.

[AtomicKitten]

31. I was rather surprised to see her continue to dip into the well of nastiness.

I thought she was smarter than that. But, the truth is, it is important for Americans to see exactly what Barack is talking about with regard to the bitter divisions and resultant nastiness in this country.

Enough!