OMG!! Thomas Jefferson plagiarized the Declaration of Independence!!!!

[Viking12]

Virginia Declaration of Rights by George Mason:

That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

The Declaration of Independence by Thomas Jefferson:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


I won't even talk about how he lifted from the Oath of Abjuration or Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence

[PresidentObama]

1. Let's swiftboat Thomas Jefferson.

:evilgrin:

[Occam Bandage]

11. See post #9.

[roguevalley]

14. they were close and George Mason is enormously underpraised.

[JVS]

21. That slave-raping douchebag has it coming

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Obama plagiarized Obama.

His grammy award-winning "The Audacity of Hope: Book on Tape" is frighteningly similar to the book "The Audacity of Hope," by Barack Obama.

Why do the Obamite cultists support thievery?

[PresidentObama]

5. Did you know MLK had a dream?

I'm pretty sure he stole that.

I had a dream too.

And I have a million others friends who have as well.

This has been paid for by the Dreamers United For Truth.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. "promised land" is copyrighted by the authors of the Bible.

Goddamn thief.

[PresidentObama]

8. I suggest God should sue.

[Occam Bandage]

3. Oh, come on. Mason totally plagiarized that

from Locke's "no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions"

[Fovea]

12. Beat me to it

Darn.

[Guaranteed]

4. Yup. John Adams told him to use "self-evident."

He had some other crappy kind of "truth" in there before.

[XemaSab]

20. Changed from "f***in' obvious"

after great fundie protest. :P

[Barack_America]

6. Can we posthumously impeach him?

I think that is called for in this case. We must have a zero-tolerance policy on being inspired by the words and ideas of others.

:sarcasm:

[MADem]

9. He also raped his child-slave, fathered slaves, and didn't free his own fucking kids.

The guy was no saint. Plagiarizing is the LEAST of his worries, particularly when he wouldn't give "all men"--specifically, his own fucking KIDS--their freedom.

What a fellah! Let's hold him up as a paragon!!! A child rapist!

:eyes:

I see this thread has been brought to us by the Two Wrongs Make a Right Club.....

[AnneD]

15. Considering that the life expectancy

was long...folks tended to marry young and have kids young. Thirteen was a marriageable age then and still is in many places in the world.

Since Sally's first child was at the age of 22-that is far from 'child rape'. What happened before her actually giving birth is pure speculation on everyones part. The fact that she (Sally) was Jefferson's wife's half sister, learned French and was basically free while in France adds to the thought that she was content to remain where she was and she had a high position in plantation society.

Later in life she was 'given her time'(freedom for all intent and purpose-a retirement)-and still lived at Monticello and Charleston as she wished. DNA test have been inconclusive and there could have been other Jefferson relatives DNA other than Jefferson himself. Such was plantation society I think, as is any closed society

Think twice before you heap such ugly scorn and accusations on some one that may be innocent and unable to defend himself. While not approving of slavery-I think Jefferson struck as best a balance as he could in his time. I think -if I had to draw the lot of slavery-I would be hard pressed to do better than Monticello. The sugar cane plantations in Louisiana were far more notorious.

[MADem]

16. So, raping your slaves "young" was "cool" then? Because of 'life expectancy?'

There's no speculation involved.

When you are a slave, what you don't have is a CHOICE.

Miss Hemings had NO CHOICE. And she certainly didn't "marry." She was PROPERTY.

She wasn't given her freedom by randy old Tom, either. That "given her time" bullshit happened after Tom croaked, and it was a device that enabled people to basically keep slaves that had been freed: http://www.monticello.org/plantation/lives/sallyhemings.html

Sally Hemings was never officially freed by Thomas Jefferson. It seems most likely that Jefferson's daughter Martha Randolph gave Sally "her time," a form of unofficial freedom that would enable her to remain in Virginia (the laws at that time required freed slaves to leave the state within a year). Madison Hemings reported that his mother lived in Charlottesville with him and his brother Eston until her death in 1835.<7>

Gee, how SWELL!!


What a LUCKY SLAVE she was! The product of a RAPE by the piggy brother of Jefferson's wife! And oh, she learned FRENCH!! Why, that slave should have been GRATEFUL for being able to take orders from Massah in TWO languages!

That disgusting "Jefferson in Paris" film is an effort to mitigate brutal history, and I am amazed at how many people actually suck up that bullshit like it is honey water.

And for you to give me the "Happy Slaves" argument that "Monticello was better than SOME" is like saying that Abu Ghraib was "better" than the Hanoi Hilton or Buchenwald.

Slavery is horrific, and there actually were people, believe it or not, who lived contemporaneously with Jefferson who felt that way. It wasn't all Happy Times Down On The Plantation. Of course, Jefferson had a massive plantation, and he managed without any trouble to tamp down any inclinations toward liberty and justice for all when they impacted his bottom line.

I'm simply stunned at your sick attempt to mitigate that which is plainly indefensible.

[AnneD]

22. Once again....

Sally Hemming was fertile and very capable of bearing children at any time after menstruation. And yet, she did not bear any children until she was 22. And then she bore 6 I believe. She was not infertile. If she could bear children at 22 she could bear children at anytime after menarche (9 on up to 14 - 16)

On what do you base this 'child rape' allegation. Is there a historical document I am unaware of? There is certainly no record of her giving birth to children before the age of 22. A few historical tid bits and a bit of anatomy about the human reproductive system seem to point out that there was a low likelihood of 'child rape' and to make those allegation against anyone is slanderous and unless you have proof-libelous.

I do not doubt that the Jefferson, Carr, and Hemming families are united in ways that we can only suppose. But to accuse someone of 'child rape' without evidence and in light of the facts we do have is...well slanderous. Thomas Jefferson is dead and cannot defend himself of the accusation. You are accusing him of raping his beloved wife's half sister when she was a child. I do not know of his brothers character, but he seemed to try to do as best he could by Sally. If he had a relationship with Sally-even if it was with the best intentions-to have it openly would have invited problem-which could have had devastating and deadly consequences.

And about Sally's children-2 died in infancy. Two ran and blended into white society and Jefferson did minimal effort to pursue them giving rise to the thought of many that they had been freed. If they were freed at the time-they could not remain in Virginia due to the laws at the time. The last 2 were freed upon Jefferson's death AND most importantly were allowed to remain in Virginia because Jefferson had crafted legislation that overturned the rule that freed slave could not remain in Virgina. Thus as best he could, when he could, all of Sally's children were freed. Sally went to Mary(her half niece) and as I mentioned-she was given 'her time', in the care of family. She had no duties other than what she wished to do, where ever she wish. Yes, she could have been freed and at 55 been set out into the world-but I am sure Martha kept her half aunt out of a familial obligation as opposed to a business arrangement. I don't have access to Martha's paperwork but I am sure she was aware of Sally's lineage.

These seem hardly the acts of a 'child rapist'. Yes, Thomas Jefferson may have been randy, he was known to be charming, and he had every plantation owner watching out for him when he was around there wives....but frankly, and I am not saying anything negative about Sally, but Jefferson was a charming man and I don't think his attentions were force on any female, slave or not.

Oh, and by the way Sally was paid while in France-she was suppose to take care of Jefferson's daughter but as Abigale Adams duly noted-Sally was the one that seemed to be needing to be cared for. Let's see, we are in Paris, we have money, we are free to move about and we learn French....but we still stay. That sound like a perfect chance to leave...if your life is so horrible that is.

Of course slavery is not good-but I think you are using the wrong paint brush here.

[MADem]

23. What, blame the SLAVE for getting "lucky" and not getting knocked up sooner???

Jesus, you're INCREDIBLE. There's no nice way to put this--I'm sickened by your justifications.

I am not saying anything negative about Sally, but Jefferson was a charming man and I don't think his attentions were force on any female, slave or not.



:wtf:

Ahhh, he "didn't force himself" on any women? Like slaves have a choice?

It doesn't matter if the woman was FIFTY. Eighty. A hundred and TEN.

She had NO fucking choice. She was a SLAVE.

But do go on, create "romance" where there was none, and options where none existed.

Christ, that's the most delusional, "justifying" line of horseshit I have ever read. EVER.

And gee--because the slave "was paid in France" that makes it OK too?

LISTEN to yourself.

LISTEN to what you are saying.

You are MITIGATING the behavior of a man who OWNED HUMANS.

I cannot believe I am reading this shit on a board ostensibly populated by Democrats. I honestly thought we were the "Human Rights" party. Apparently, when it comes to female slaves and the 'droit de signeur,' I am profoundly mistaken.

Slavery, my dear, is more than "not good" -- it is a dehumanizing, vicious, offensive, hideous, and INEXCUSABLE act, the SHAME of our history, and anyone who can participate in it or pardon it is missing a key human quality, no matter how "kindly" they might appear to be in other areas. The guy will always be "tainted" with that slaveowning, slave abusing label, and his failure to free them upon his death, leaving that to his heirs, makes it even worse.

I've got the right paint, and the right brush. You're the one who's slopping fantasy all over the canvas. I'm simply appalled.

[AnneD]

24. We will just have to...

respect agree to disagree. I can't speak of Jefferson's brothers, but I think the allegations of child rape in reguard to Thomas Jefferson are hyperbole based on emotion-with little attention to details such human anatomy.

I agree that slavery is not a good thing. But in reguard to a man's character, I prefer to look at the the fruit before I judge the nature of the tree.

[InsultComicDog]

10. Cultist Jeffersonistas

[Tatiana]

17. ***COFFEE SPEW***

:rofl:

[Bitwit1234]

13. Oh oh oh oh he owns the dictionary not....

Are we lowly Americans even allowed to speak, we might offend the great man.

[tishaLA]

18. I tried to make this point this morning, unsuccessfully....

that our contemporary ideas about "plagiarism" are fairly recent constructs. In the early republic, imitation was something that was lauded...and something that people did throughout their education. For example, young men (not especially young women) were taught to memorize speeches by Greeks and Romans; poetry was written in slavishly exact heroic couplets in the style of Pope and Dryden. The idea of repetition and adherence to form was itself considered "revolutionary."

The larger point, of course, is that it is impossible to say what is "plagiarism" and what is not because the meaning of the term is so amorphous. Was it "plagiarism" when Kathy Acker took large portions of Dickens when she wrote her novel "Great Expectations"? Or when Jefferson took large passages from French and Scottish Common Sense philosophers?

[Obama4prezz]

19. The difference: Thomas Jefferson did not admit he should have credited Mason n/t