Whose fault was it that Obama's name wasn't on the Michigan delegate list?

[aquarius dawning]

Poll question: Whose fault was it that Obama's name wasn't on the Michigan delegate list?

[Bill McBlueState]

1. I don't blame Dean personally

But that's the closest answer to "the national party." Rules designed to give Iowa and New Hampshire special privileges are silly.

[Captain Hilts]

10. It's best to have small states go first because it helps less wealthy candidates compete with front-

runners.

But Calif, FL, and MI get ripped off on the current schedule.

They need to start a lottery, as the NBA draft does, to permit two of the Big Five go earlier.

[aquarius dawning]

41. And that is the staus quo that BO is supposed to be against. Where was he that day?

[gateley]

2. Fault? Did he do something wrong by aligning with most of the other candidates

by making a statement in support of the DNC ruling? Did he do something wrong in showing solidarity with his fellow candidates?

Did he do something to be faulted FOR?

[hayu_lol]

6. Obama, due to his inexperience and personal stupidity...

took his own name off the Michigan ballot. HE WAS NOT REQUIRED TO DO SO. His choice--a bad choice--and a choice that may be indicative of his future choices.

Obama did it all by his little self in order to pander to Iowa/NH.

How many more threads will show up on this topic.

The buck on this one starts and ends with Obama.

[MannyGoldstein]

11. Obama's An Idiot - What A Dumbass Rube

Playing by the rules is for LOSERS.

:sarcasm:

In any case, it's irrelevant, as all of the candidates agreed that MI primary had no meaning.

[aquarius dawning]

14. He disenfranchised millions so he could support the status quo.

[MannyGoldstein]

18. So Putting Bush In Jail Would Be "Disenfranchising" Him?

Yikes! What happened to that "don't do the crime if you can't do the time" stuff?

[aquarius dawning]

24. I don't see how that argument even remotely fits into this discussion.

[MannyGoldstein]

29. Crime Begets Punishment

Isn't that the idea?

[gateley]

22. You guys (Hillary supporters) may be right, but on this I favor Obama because

of his doing what he felt was right in standing with the other candidates. It makes me think more highly of him as a person, and less of Hillary in that her move seemed calculating.

And again, just for the record - I'm not an Obama supporter, so this is truly an objective reaction.

[aquarius dawning]

25. he supported the status quo and violated the constitutional rights of millions in doing so

he was wrong and Hillary was right and it shows just what kind of agent of change he really is.

[gateley]

All I was doing was stating my objective reaction. Thanks for your input,

but honestly, at this point, nothing EITHER side says can sway me. It's up to me and me alone.

Best of luck to you and Hillary!

[aquarius dawning]

7. Seems to me the "anti-establishment" candidate was pretty quick to align with the establishment

and in so doing probably disenfranchised millions of voters. I'd say that's pretty fucking wrong.

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. MOST? Clinton, Kucinich, Gravel and Dodd were all on the ballot.

Obama, Biden, Edwards and Richardson were not. They CHOSE to remove their names. They didn't have to.

[aquarius dawning]

3. Michigan Democrat's fault? But Hillary's name wasn't taken off of the list.

That argument doesn't work.

[SKKY]

4. MI and FL shouldn't have cut off their noses to spite their face...

...it's not BO's fault, or JE's fault that they played by the rules? :shrug:

[bellasgrams]

17. BO didn't have to take his name off the ballot, he did that himself.

The only thing the candidates agreed to was not to campaign which BO did anyway in FL

[SKKY]

47. One nationally run add on cable television is hardly campaigning...

[MadBadger]

5. Thought you were going to win this vote, didnt you aquarius?

[janetblond]

8. HOW did Hillary's name get on there?

I thought they they BOTH agreed .. to the SAME arrangement in Michigan.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. Easy. Obama removed his name from the ballot. Hillary, Kucinich, Gravel and Dodd DID NOT remove

their names, so Hillary isn't the only Democrat who chose not to disenfranchise Michigan voters.

[MadBadger]

16. DK tried to, but couldnt.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. Why couldn't he? n/t

[aquarius dawning]

I guess he didn't try as hard as Obama.

[bellasgrams]

19. BO took his name off on his own, bad move. He didn't have to.

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. It was Obama's fault.. He CHOSE to remove his name. No one held a gun to his head

to make him do so. His choice, his loss. Stupid move on his part.

The candidates were told they could not campaign in MI. No one did. They were NOT told to remove their names from the ballot.

[cd3dem]

36. "Right on day one!" --a good example of his decision making skills...

[aquarius dawning]

12. I wouldn't expect Obama voters to vote honestly about this

or anything else for that matter but we are going to talk about this. Obama took his name off the list. That was a mistake on his part and; furthermore, it shows how quick he was to support the establishment by maintaining the Iowa/NH status quo. It shows poor judgment on his part and casts serious doubts upon his message of change. It shows that Hillary was smarter and is not necessarily the agent of the status quo that she has been mde out to be.

[nomorewhopper]

13. The reason we have laws to guide the elections is so that we can avoid nightmare scenarios like this

the michigan dems should have known better than to try to go against the law.

once that starts, it opens up a can of worms that can not/will not go away.

[aquarius dawning]

20. Wrong The constitution of the United States grants the states the right to regulate their elections.

Howard Dean and Barack Obama supported a policy that was unconstitutional in that it violated the states right to regulate and conduct their elections and it disenfranchised millions of people in the process. He was as wrong as the day is long. Hillary, on the other hand, went against the establishment and recognized Michigan's constitutional right to conduct their elections however they see fit.

[PassingFair]

49. Great! Why didn't all the states just vote in OCTOBER, with JUST HILLARY

on the ballot!

Then it would have been ALL OVER by now, just the
way you and the DLC would have PREFERRED IT!

Just have every state do exactly what they want.
No party rules.

Why even HAVE a party.

Just call it the DLC, CORONATE your candidate and
CARRY ON!

Sorry to let the ELECTORATE get in the way.

Sorry to let the voters have a say.

Sorry you didn't get to FRONT-LOAD the primaries
the way it was planned.

Sorry.

:sarcasm:

[aquarius dawning]

52. Most Americans agree that a 1 day national primary would be better. The staus quo disagrees however

"Sorry to let the ELECTORATE get in the way."
The electorate isn't limited to the people who vote for and send money to Obama.

"Sorry to let the voters have a say."
Tell that to the Michigan voters clown.

"Just have every state do exactly what they want. No party rules."
PARTY RULES DO NOT TRUMP THE U.S. CONSTITUTION! NOTHING DOES!!

[PassingFair]

55. I AM a Michigan voter, CLOWN!

And I DON'T agree that a 1 day national primary
would be better. Do you have a link for your
assertion that "most Americans do"?

What does the US Constitution have to do
with the Democratic Primary?

The DNC determines the PARTY RULES.

[WillyT]

21. BINGO !!!

Exactly!!!

:kick:

[Iceburg]

54. Honesty is not a card Obama supporters like to play.

[yourguide]

64. So you are standing up for...

Michigan because they decided to try and screw Iowa and NH? Really? Wake up!

[lligrd]

23. I Think It Was A Wise Decision

It makes it nearly impossible to count Michigan's delegates short of holding a fair election.

[aquarius dawning]

30. yeah, a decision that violates the constitutional rights of millions is so wise

Those poll taxes and literacy tests were pretty wise back in the day too, huh?

[lligrd]

38. Michigan Made That Decision

not Obama.

[aquarius dawning]

44. Michigan voters exercised their constitutional rights . Obama violated them

[lligrd]

48. Obama Violated Nothing

Michigan was told that if they changed their primary date they would not be counted. They did it anyway. Blame goes to Michigan, sorry. Perhaps Michigan voters should do something about those that were responsible.

[aquarius dawning]

53. HE IS ATTEMPTING TO DISENFRANCHISE VOTERS!

:grr:

[lligrd]

56. Repeating The Same Lie Will Not Make It True nt

[Rageneau]

28. A smart leader prepares for EVERY eventual. Hillary is smart. BO isn't.

A big part of making a decision between these two candidates HAS to be "How shrewd is this person?"

Shrewdness is double-plus-good in a national leader. It doesn't infer deviousness, but rather better preparation to lead and a finer grasp of reality.

I want a shrewd president, prepared to lead, with a finer grasp of reality. So I support HRC.

[golddigger]

34. Yep, Obama and Axlerod are kicking each other in the ass for this one.

[high density]

35. Finer grasp of reality?

The reality is that MI and FL delegates will not be seated at the convention because the states broke the rules. Any shrewd person would lick their wounds and try to win other races.

[AtomicKitten]

31. Going back on her word is one of the many reasons she is unfit to be president.

Hillary Goes Back on Her Word
By David Knowles
http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/01/29/hillary-goes-back-on-her-word/

New Hampshire's Union Leader is calling Hillary Clinton out for what it sees a string of lies:

Courting voters in Iowa and New Hampshire, last August Sen. Hillary Clinton signed a pledge not to "campaign or participate" in the Michigan or Florida Democratic primaries. She participated in both primaries and is campaigning in Florida. Which proves, again, that Hillary Clinton is a liar.

Clinton kept her name on the Michigan ballot when others removed theirs, she campaigned this past weekend in Florida, and she is pushing to seat Michigan and Florida delegates at the Democratic National Convention. The party stripped those states of delegates for moving up their primary dates...

...Clinton coldly and knowingly lied to New New Hampshire and Iowa. Her promise was not a vague statement. It was a signed pledge with a clear and unequivocal meaning.

There's no excuse for what Clinton is doing. This crass attempt to out-maneuver her opponents will come back to haunt her. And scheduling a "victory party" in a state where you've pledged you wouldn't campaign--in an attempt to make it look as though you beat your rivals even though they kept their promises and didn't set foot in Florida-- is beyond the pale.

[aquarius dawning]

33. How dare she not disenfranchise Michigan voters like Obama did!!!

How dare she side on the side of the constitution and the people over the side of the DNC! She's so obviously the establishment candidate!

[AtomicKitten]

37. And a signed agreement means nothing to those content with "by any means necessary."

Disenfranchisement is trying to include an already discredited election where all candidates weren't on the ballot and when they were not allowed to campaign, Hillary hoping to skate on name recognition alone. Many voters didn't show up knowing these contests were already - by the agreement of the DNC and all the candidates - including Princess Buttercup - discredited and deemed not counting from the get-go.

No worries. The Democratic Party will fight back en masse if ClintonCo tries to press this bullshit, your cloying cheesy unscrupulous support for their tactics aside. Best of luck passing that turd.

[aquarius dawning]

39. He stood along along side the status quo and supported disenfranchising voters

you can't spin it any other way.

[AtomicKitten]

43. they both signed the same agreement, the very same agreement she is trying to break

Obama has honor and dignity. Hillary Clinton not so much.

[aquarius dawning]

50. They both agreed not to campaign in Michigan. They didn't agree to to take their names off the list

I think the people who are disenfranchising voters are the ones stealing this particular election. That would be Obama and Co. And, for what it's worth, I'm not hearing much support for BO here in Ohio. I'm hearing a lot of voices saying "no you can't".

[PeaceNikki]

51. And again. If there's no campaign, the candidate most likely to win Michigan is Hillary Clinton.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/09/michigan.primary/index.html

CNN's Senior Political Analyst Bill Schneider suggested the Democrats who withdrew may have calculated that it was simply in their best political interest to do so.

"If there's no campaign, the candidate most likely to win Michigan is Hillary Clinton," Schneider said. "Her Democratic rivals don't want a Clinton victory in Michigan to count. They want Iowa and New Hampshire, where they have a better chance of stopping Clinton, to count more."

[yourguide]

65. Wake up!

Yes, the people who disenfranchised the voters...IE Michigan state democratic leaders and the Florida state dem leaders...are the ones who are responsible.

Hillary-bot, wake up and look at what is fair.

Is it fair that MI and FL tried to screw IO & and MI? Nope

They were warned by the DNC and they still moved up their primaries.

Then 3 of the 4 major dem candidates chose to support the Dem party by removing their names from the MI ballot...playing by rules of fairness yet again.

One chose to keep her name on the ballot for obviously selfish reasons.

Now, lets see...1 of the 4 major candidates names were on the ballot and no one was allowed to campaign there. The one name on the ballot agreed that the delegates wouldnt count and now wants to change the rules.

Not her fault or obama's fault - not deans fault - it's the MI and FL Dem leaders fault.

You are completely batty aquarius.

[aquarius dawning]

69. Obama and his supporters are the most vocal voices seeking to keep FLA & MI votes from counting

Therefore, they are the ones seeking to disenfranchise voters regardless of their rationales and; furthermore, I am 101% certain that if the situation were reversed, there would be an uprising in America led by Barack Obama and his followers.

[yourguide]

70. you are insane...did you even LOOK at my other posts?

I am all for a revote. What about the people who didnt vote thinking their votes wouldnt count?

The rules were laid out ahead of time, the leaders in those states decided to either screw IO & NH or screw their own voters - their own fault. Many here are advocating a FAIR solution to this. The only solution that would be UNFAIR to any candidate would be counting the votes as is. No one was allowed to campaign in those states and in Michigan 3 of the 4 front runners werent on the ballot.

Lunatic Hillbot.

[aquarius dawning]

72. It all gets back to point of the post. It is Obama's fault that his name wasn't on the ballot

Why should anyone/everyone else be punished for his stupidty? There are no revotes in a Democracy I'm afraid. As far as I know, there has never been one for any reason in this country and, IMO, such a precedent should not be set. You can insult me all you want but that doesn't change the dynamics of this situation. BO fucked up big time by taking his name off of the ballot.

[yourguide]

73. well then my friend...

the original rules stand and the delegates should not count - period. Florida and Michigan should either be punished for their stupidity or make it a fair vote, as is REQUIRED in a democracy.

HC screwed up by leaving her name ON the ballot. She showed concern for herself. The other 3 front runners did the right thing showing support for the party.

Just because your candidate did the wrong thing and could possibly benefit from that, dont make it into something it's not.

You Hillbots are all alike, and are turning off people who MIGHT vote for your candidate if she wins the primaries.

[hayu_lol]

45. AtomicK...Oy, such an article...

Unfortunately, Hillary did play by the rules in both Michigan and Florida. She campaigned in NEITHER state. She, and the rest of the candidates were NOT REQUIRED to remove their names from the ballot. What part of that do you NOT understand? It really is pretty simple.

Michigan was holding an election. Hillary and the rest are/were running for the Presidency. Why would any person remove their name from the ballot? If you are not on the ballot, you can't receive votes.

St. Dennis even broke the rule against campaigning in Michigan.

Obama/Edwards, in removing their name from that ballot when it was unnecessary to do so contributed to their own defeat. They made this dicision from inexperience and stupidity.

It was not the State of Michigan that did this evil deed...it was the Democratic Party of Michigan.

No one in Florida campaigned or held press conferences except Obama with his national ad buy and his association with a press clique.

No candidate could pull their names off the ballot without, following Florida's election laws, withdrawing from the presidential race. That is why Obama remained on the ballot in Florida.

Such pandering for incompetence. Obama simply screwed up in Michigan.

[AtomicKitten]

46. Democrats aren't nearly as stupid as some of you are banking on.

The DNC has a signed agreement with all the candidates regarding the disposition of Michigan and Florida and that is their contests would be discredited if they moved them up. They did move them up. They were discredited and do not count, as per the signed agreement.

Mr. Ickes has a cadre of attorneys waiting in the wings for the 5th quarter. I invite ClintonCo to sue, just like they did by proxy in Iowa and New Hamsphire to suppress the student vote, and by proxy in Nevada to suppress the union vote at the casinos.

It will summarily put an end to ClintonCo. Amen.

[aquarius dawning]

57. If it goes to the supreme court, they will rule in favor of the constitution

which means they will have to rule in favor of seating the delegates. The DNC does not have the power or authority to overrule the US constitution or to disenfranchise an entire state. Furthermore, the candidates agreed not to campaign but never agreed to take names off of any ballots. Hillary's case in this matter is legitimate and strong. What's more, any eventual win by BO in this election will be no more legitimate than either of GWBs if he gets there by violating the constitutional rights of Michigan and Florida voters.

[AtomicKitten]

58. they will rule in favor of the signed contract

Know how I know that? Bill Nelson (FL) already sued and lost.

Oooops.

[aquarius dawning]

59. There was nothing in the contract that stated anyone had to take their names off the ballot

I don't see how that will favor the BigO.

[provis99]

32. what a push poll

The correct answer is, the states of Florida and Michigan are to blame for the loss of Democratic delegates. They agreed to abide by the DNC rules, selected a primary date that the DNC agreed with, and then decided later to change the dates of the primary, thus breaking the agreement they initially had. If they didn't like the dates, they never should have agreed to them in the first place.

[Madam Mossfern]

40. It was Hillary's fault

It's always Hillary's fault.

Do I really need to use a sarcasm smiley here?

[PeaceNikki]

42. It very well may have BENEFITED him to remove his name.

It was a calculated decision.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/09/michigan.primary/index.html

The Biden campaign criticized Clinton and Dodd for not taking their names off the ballot.

"The Dodd and Clinton campaigns have chosen to hedge their bets, thereby throwing this process into further disarray," Biden campaign manager Navarro said. "In doing so, they have abandoned Democrats in Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina."

CNN's Senior Political Analyst Bill Schneider suggested the Democrats who withdrew may have calculated that it was simply in their best political interest to do so.

"If there's no campaign, the candidate most likely to win Michigan is Hillary Clinton," Schneider said. "Her Democratic rivals don't want a Clinton victory in Michigan to count. They want Iowa and New Hampshire, where they have a better chance of stopping Clinton, to count more."

It was an unneccesary step - an "extention to their pledge" to the DNC that snubbed the voters there.

[route66left]

60. Obama made a real big mistake on this one!

[Occam Bandage]

61. I love when push polls don't go the way the OP intended.

[aquarius dawning]

62. You assume too much. nt

[Occam Bandage]

63. As do you.

[yourguide]

66. Side note

Your sig photo makes me laugh, a knock off of the shepherd fairy lithos in my sig...and another knock off. Shepherd Fairy does an incredible couple of Obama lithos, a very popular and established artist....my guess is someone in the Clinton camp photoshopped yours trying to make her seem hip.

Right.

[stillcool]

67. I understand all to well...

about breaking rules, and then defending the rule breakers. It's how our government seems to work these days, so why should we expect any Democrat to be different?

[aquarius dawning]

68. Voting is breaking the rules? In what country are you living in?

:wtf:

[stillcool]

74. I'm living in the country...

where the Michigan and Florida State Democratic Party's broke the rules. :wtf: country are you living in?

[jackson_dem]

71. Who took it off? Will Obama blame others for his White House mistakes too?