"Obama's brochures to voters sound like they've been written by the health insurance industry

[anamandujano]

and the Republicans, talking about how we can't possibly get to universal health care."

"My opponent has given up the fight before we've ever started," she told a gathering of Democrats at a party fundraiser outside Akron.

Sock it to 'em baby!

lots more--
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080216/ap_on_el_pr/clinton

[LulaMay]

1. He speaks like a conservative on these issues. I'm convinced he's not a true liberal.

[anamandujano]

5. Got to wonder how the people supporting him are going to feel

when he puts his plans in place.

Won't Kennedy be embarrassed? Will he speak up or just go find another protege?

[readmoreoften]

21. I almost hope he's elected to see the Democratic voters wake the hell up.

But, then again, it just might get bamboozled again. We're not that difficult to manipulate, so it seems.

[lligrd]

24. We Can't Be Much More Bamboozled Than

we've already been by Clinton.

[readmoreoften]

30. Uh, yeah we can. If is Obama is even the same as Clinton we've been bamboozled more.

Because he will have lied on top of being a triangulator. And he is. Both candidates are bad but he is worse because he's pretending to be something else.

[lligrd]

32. BS, How Much Worse Can He Do Than

allowing for the illegal invasion and occupation of a country, quashing of our rights and ruination of our economy like Hillary already has.

[readmoreoften]

33. And how is Obama not also accountable? Is he also NOT a US Senator? He has made no stand.

I am highly critical of Clinton, but your frothing at the mouth over her is ridiculous. What about Pelosi, Reid, Obama... the WHOLE DAMN CONGRESS? Obama has said unequivocably that he AGREES WITH PRE-EMPTIVE UNILATERAL STRIKES. He simply disagrees with the TARGET of those strikes. It is DISINGENUOUS to boo hoo about Clinton when you are actively campaigning for and failing to hold Obama accountable for his own ideas--ideas that will be put into action is he becomes president.

How much worse? How about a unilateral pre-emptive strike on Pakistan? Bombs detonating in a heretofore ALLIED nation, a so-called democracy. What kind of trust will this engender in the Middle East? And if you think that Clinton is hands down responsible for the ruination of our economy than you're just a moron looking for an easy excuse.

Will Obama stop illegal spying? Is he doing it now?
Will Obama pull all our troops out of Iraq? Is he even advocating for it now?
Will Obama fix the economy? With what magic powers?

The economy isn't even broken, it's just slanted towards making the rich richer. The rich have no national allegiance. Their nation is capital. Clinton and Obama are both their champions.

Criticize Clinton, fine. But if you fail to criticize Obama as well then you are an irrational, lazy voter looking for a quick fix to complicated problems.

[rodeodance]

44. have you read this----good questions in this article.

Forum Name General Discussion: Primaries
Topic subject Obama's first coming
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4540643#4540643
4540643, Obama's first coming
Posted by rodeodance on Mon Feb-11-08 04:55 PM




I think this Oz author raises some valid questions that we should all critically think about.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23182456-28737,00.html

Obama's first coming

Washington correspondent Geoff Elliott | February 09, 2008

IT was early 1994 when Nelson Mandela gave a speech in a slum outside Cape Town and spoke in grand terms of a new beginning and how when he was elected president every household would have a washing machine.

People took him literally. A few months later he became South Africa's first black president. That's when clerks in department stores in Cape Town had to turn people away demanding their free washer and dryer.
.......
How does a cult figure, in the eyes of some something akin to a messiah, make the transition to a political frontrunner - president even - where disappointment will soon crush what seemed to be a journey to a promised land?
Looking into the faces of a more than 16,000-strong crowd in a basketball stadium in Hartford, Connecticut this week, the Mandela magic I'd seen before was there too. Black and white, and the youth; they appeared in a state close to rapture watching Obama speak. Here and there one could see women crying and the some men wiping away tears too.
.......
In the US today there are echoes of that Rainbow Revolution. Through the media and on the streets people are getting a bit giddy over Obama. In this man they are projecting a new course - one that he says he will lead - where the US buries the culture wars, charts a new course in bipartisan politics and heralds a new dawn for America. ......
........
And therein lays the danger for Obama. The Obama shuttle has made it into orbit but at some point he's going to have to land this thing back on Earth.
.........
But the danger remains for Obama in managing the cult-like fervour. Obviously, he's no messiah and lofty expectations of his supporters is something that Obama is also acutely aware of. In stockmarket parlance, Obama's share price is soaring on expected future earnings. Clinton, 20 years in the public eye, is like the industrial conglomerate: steady share price and reliable dividends. Think of Obama as Google and Clinton as General Electric.
.............
"We can do this," he told ecstatic supporters on Tuesday night. "It will not be easy. It will require struggle and sacrifice. There will setbacks and we will make mistakes."
But then Obama, in the next sentence, in attempt to appeal to more voters out there, didn't even mention the Democratic Party but instead his "movement" saying: "I want to speak directly to all those Americans who have yet to join this movement but still hunger for change: we need you. We need you to stand with us, and work with us, and help us prove that together, ordinary people can still do extraordinary things".
.........
In his Super Tuesday speech Obama said "we are the ones we've been waiting for", attempting to make the case the time was now to get some "change" in Washington: a post-partisan world where politicians reach across the aisle for the common good. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different," he said. "It's different not because of me. It's different because of you."
.......
"Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause - other than an amorphous desire for change - the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is."
I hear that too in the voices of Obama's staff constantly, themselves referring to this "cult of Obama".
"Even if he doesn't go all the way, and I'm not being defeatist, I'm so thrilled to be a part of this and see the size of the crowds turning out," one staffer tells me.
.........
. He may well build an unstoppable momentum. And then the giddiness might evaporate and be replaced with something else. In marketing they call it post-purchase disappointment. If he gets the Democratic Party's nomination another test begins anew: how to turn the narrative which is all about striving for what is possible, to one where people are suddenly asking how are you actually going to do it?

[rodeodance]

38. shuttter...

[rodeodance]

42. This article asks some real good questions---:

Forum Name General Discussion: Primaries
Topic subject Obama's first coming
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4540643#4540643
4540643, Obama's first coming
Posted by rodeodance on Mon Feb-11-08 04:55 PM




I think this Oz author raises some valid questions that we should all critically think about.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23182456-28737,00.html

Obama's first coming

Washington correspondent Geoff Elliott | February 09, 2008

IT was early 1994 when Nelson Mandela gave a speech in a slum outside Cape Town and spoke in grand terms of a new beginning and how when he was elected president every household would have a washing machine.

People took him literally. A few months later he became South Africa's first black president. That's when clerks in department stores in Cape Town had to turn people away demanding their free washer and dryer.
.......
How does a cult figure, in the eyes of some something akin to a messiah, make the transition to a political frontrunner - president even - where disappointment will soon crush what seemed to be a journey to a promised land?
Looking into the faces of a more than 16,000-strong crowd in a basketball stadium in Hartford, Connecticut this week, the Mandela magic I'd seen before was there too. Black and white, and the youth; they appeared in a state close to rapture watching Obama speak. Here and there one could see women crying and the some men wiping away tears too.
.......
In the US today there are echoes of that Rainbow Revolution. Through the media and on the streets people are getting a bit giddy over Obama. In this man they are projecting a new course - one that he says he will lead - where the US buries the culture wars, charts a new course in bipartisan politics and heralds a new dawn for America. ......
........
And therein lays the danger for Obama. The Obama shuttle has made it into orbit but at some point he's going to have to land this thing back on Earth.
.........
But the danger remains for Obama in managing the cult-like fervour. Obviously, he's no messiah and lofty expectations of his supporters is something that Obama is also acutely aware of. In stockmarket parlance, Obama's share price is soaring on expected future earnings. Clinton, 20 years in the public eye, is like the industrial conglomerate: steady share price and reliable dividends. Think of Obama as Google and Clinton as General Electric.
.............
"We can do this," he told ecstatic supporters on Tuesday night. "It will not be easy. It will require struggle and sacrifice. There will setbacks and we will make mistakes."
But then Obama, in the next sentence, in attempt to appeal to more voters out there, didn't even mention the Democratic Party but instead his "movement" saying: "I want to speak directly to all those Americans who have yet to join this movement but still hunger for change: we need you. We need you to stand with us, and work with us, and help us prove that together, ordinary people can still do extraordinary things".
.........
In his Super Tuesday speech Obama said "we are the ones we've been waiting for", attempting to make the case the time was now to get some "change" in Washington: a post-partisan world where politicians reach across the aisle for the common good. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different," he said. "It's different not because of me. It's different because of you."
.......
"Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause - other than an amorphous desire for change - the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is."
I hear that too in the voices of Obama's staff constantly, themselves referring to this "cult of Obama".
"Even if he doesn't go all the way, and I'm not being defeatist, I'm so thrilled to be a part of this and see the size of the crowds turning out," one staffer tells me.
.........
. He may well build an unstoppable momentum. And then the giddiness might evaporate and be replaced with something else. In marketing they call it post-purchase disappointment. If he gets the Democratic Party's nomination another test begins anew: how to turn the narrative which is all about striving for what is possible, to one where people are suddenly asking how are you actually going to do it?

[democrat2thecore]

31. 100% ADA rating, "Most Liberal Senator" - what more do you want? -nt

[OzarkDem]

34. His health care plan is not liberal

and that says a great deal about his approach and how he would govern.

His health care plan is the most conservative one out there of all the Dems, both in this race and in Congress.

[Bitwit1234]

2. He had two health care lobbyist on his campaign staff.

I think when they were found out he let them go.

[lligrd]

3. Both Of Their Health Care Plans Suck

Single payer is the only way to go. Insurance companies are only interested in making a profit.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

7. Hillary's plan forces everyone to buy insurance - ins cos will love that

Neither have the solution we need, but at least Obama's is a start.

The states will have to do legislation on their own, and once repugs see that
the US can't keep jobs and have private insurance, they will be in favor of
Universal Health Care.

[lligrd]

9. I Agree. We Sure Don't Need More Laws Forcing People

to buy things they don't think they can afford. And mandatory anything doesn't feel like freedom to me.

[OzarkDem]

41. Like Social Security? Are you against that, too?

You guys look like Harry & Louise posting here.

[rodeodance]

56. yeah--lets just pay for those who are selfish -those who do not to buy insurance

even if they can afford it but end up with huge bills they can't pay.

got it!

[anamandujano]

13. Where to start with this post, whew!

The idea that Repukes are ever going to be in favor of universal is, well, cut down on the cool-aid dear.

Everyone is going to have insurance on Hillary's plan. That means that they will have care when they need it. She is the one who made a start years ago and she is continuing her effort. Baby steps, to be sure, in dealing with the entrenched insurance companies and big pharma, something to build on, and build on she will.

The people who are happy with the coverage they have now will not have to change anything. The best guess is they will want to change when they see the deal they can get. Prices will go down on everything. There will be leverage with all the big guys because of the huge group, the whole country.

She is offering the same plan that the pampered out of touch congress critters get. If you think anyone is going to pass on that, straighten out your thinking cap.

People who are struggling to pay for an inferior plan, a plan that might bump them if they happen to get sick, or have an accountant decide whether they can get care will have a better option. They, as well as everyone else who can't afford it, will either pay a very small percentage of their pay or have a subsidy if they can't afford anything.

The only way it will work is if everyone is in.

Obama's plan will allow things to continue as they are, which is a steady slide downhill. That equals NO CHANGE.

She mentioned all of this in her "boring" town hall. All issues, all the time. If you cared to listen you would know all this.

[lligrd]

19. What I "Know" Is That Her Fix Will Kill Any Attempt At

single payer which is the only fair health care system. If you cared to do the research and think it out for yourself instead of listening to town hall meetings you would probably come to the same conclusion.

[anamandujano]

25. If you have some information to back up your assertion, spill.

Why would her "fix" "kill" "any" "attempt" at single payer? Nobody is even considering making that attempt as of even date so how did you reach this conclusion?

A few details will be fine with me.

[lligrd]

26. Once The PRIVATE Insurance Companies Are Handling

all of our health care, don't you think it will be even harder to wrestle it away from them than it is now? Have you thought this out at all?

[anamandujano]

28. I can see you've studied the issue intensely.

:eyes:

No business should take its customers for granted. They will all be competing for a piece of the pie.

Because of the huge group of people involved, the whole population of the country, the terms will be set by us. Prices will be negotiated down.

It doesn't make any sense to keep arguing with you since you just talk with zip behind it.

[lligrd]

29. Oh, Just Like The News Media That Murdoch Owns

I wonder why he supports Hillary. Or the choices we get with cable companies? One of us has been dipping into the Koolaid a bit too often.

[OzarkDem]

45. I've done the research

and Clinton's plan is the best one available to get us into single payer.

If you want to abandon that prospect by voting for Obama, go ahead. I hope you enjoy being uninsured.

Try reading it for yourself

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

[OzarkDem]

43. Obama's plan will throw an anchor on the current system

and cause it to sink much faster.

[Hippo_Tron]

50. How do we determine who can afford it?

Do we know the financial circumstances of all $300 million people in this country.

And once we have determined that, just how many people are going to be eligible for that subsidy once Congress waters the plan down and tells Clinton that they refuse to spend the money to subsidize health care for all of the people that she wants to.

And how is she going to enforce mandates?

[OzarkDem]

54. A Dem president w/ a Dem Congress can get it passed

particularly Clinton, because health care reform has long been a priority for her.

Income indexing is not difficult to do. Clinton will fix Medicaid to allow more low income people to qualify. Medicaid indexing is based on the Federal Poverty Level guidelines

(Scroll down to see the table) Most states cover people up to 150% of FPL, some higher

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/08poverty.shtml

As for people buying health insurance, the government health insurance plan will probably be about one third less than private insurance, since its less expensive to administer and doesn't have to produce a profit for shareholders.

Clinton will determine who gets a tax credit and how much based on income as a percentage above federal poverty guideline levels.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

Also - Clinton will ensure that premiums never exceed a percentage of individual or family income.

[Hippo_Tron]

55. You didn't answer the question about enforcing mandates

And "Clinton really really wants it, it's personal for her" isn't a good enough reason to make me believe that we can beat the GOP and the health care industry on this.

There's almost no chance that congress won't water down whatever subsidies or price controls that she proposes. That means that you will be mandating coverage for people that can't really afford it.

[OzarkDem]

57. They can afford it

Because Clinton's plan:

broadens Medicaid coverage to fill the gaps for truly low income people to become eligible; a lot of low income people should qualify for Medicaid now, but don't because they don't have dependent children


offers a government health care plan that will be cheaper than private insurance


provides tax credits to help people pay premiums


limits premium payments to a percentage of income

[rodeodance]

53. Yes, the larger the pool the better.

[OzarkDem]

39. Obama's is a "poison pill"plan

Its inherently flawed and will cause the program to collapse within a year or two because of high costs. Obama's plan also has no cap on private insurance premiums.

It will set back the effort to get real health care reform by years.

[OzarkDem]

35. Clinton's plan, like Edwards, will get us to single payer

It forces private insurance companies to compete w/ a government based health insurance program - made available to businesses and individuals.

[PurityOfEssence]

4. His wife makes over $300K a year working in the current medical biz

Don't expect too much boat rocking.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

6. Hillary isn't offering universal health care, neither are - she just penalizes you if you don't pay

Its going to take a 50 state effort to get medicare for all, or universal health care.

Obama and Clinton have insurance plans, not universal health care.

Worse, Clinton's plan forces you to buy the insurance, and will attach your wages if you
don't buy it.

That is "Mitt Care".

Congress won't pass anything that forces individuals to mail their paycheck to an insurance company.

Force is the key word here.

[OzarkDem]

47. Clinton's plan offers a choice between govt and private plans

Individuals and employers can choose a government based health care plan like Medicare. If your income is low, it offers tax credits to help pay for it.

Buying into a government health care plan will automatically cost about 1/3 less than private insurance.

Mitt's plan made everyone buy private insurance, that's why it failed.

[smalll]

8. You go girl!

Texas and Ohio are do-or-die. And by God, Our Girl won't let the great Democratic Party get hijacked by some little hopped-up crypto-ceasarist Axelrod puppet who's more than happy enought to throw boomers, feminists and blue-collars under the bus as long as he gets to ride into the Oval Office on hip hype and empty rhetoric.

The Democratic Party's nominee will NOT be chosen by Republicans, "independents" and iPodded kids who've never even voted before, as long as She has anything to do with it!

They Shall Not Pass!

[Straight Shooter]

11. I love your sig pic.

Who says women aren't courageous leaders!

Dolores Ibárruri's (also known as La Pasionaria) famous battlecry appeal for the defense of the Second Spanish Republic.

19 July 1936

Workers! Farmers! Anti-fascists! Spanish Patriots! Confronted with the fascist military uprising, all must rise to their feet, to defend the Republic, to defend the people's freedoms as well as their achievements towards democracy!

Through the statements by the government and the Popular Front (parties), the people understand the graveness of the moment. In Morroco, as well as in the Canary Islands, the workers are battling, united with the forces still loyal to the Republic, against the uprising militants and fascists.

Under the battlecry 'Fascism shall not pass; the hangmen of October shall not pass!' workers and farmers from all Spanish provinces are joining in the struggle against the enemies of the Republic that have arisen in arms. Communists, Socialists, Anarchists and Republican Democrats, soldiers and (other) forces remaining loyal to the Republic combined have inflicted the first defeats upon the fascist foe, who drag through the mud the very same honourable military tradition that they have boasted to possess so many times. The whole country cringes in indignation at these heartless barbarians that would hurl our democratic Spain back down into an abyss of terror and death. However, THEY SHALL NOT PASS! For all of Spain presents itself for battle. In Madrid, the people are out in the streets in support of the Government and encouraging its decision and fighting spirit so that it shall reach its conclusion in the smashing of the militant and fascist insurrection.

Young men, prepare for combat! Women, heroic women of the people! Recall the heroism of the women of Asturias of 1934 and struggle alongside the men in order to defend the lives and freedom of your sons, overshadowed by the fascist menace!

Soldiers, sons of the nation! Stay true to the Republican State and fight side by side with the workers, with the forces of the Popular Front, with your parents, your siblings and comrades! Fight for the Spain of February the 16th, fight for the Republic and help them to victory! Workers of all stripes! The government supplies us with arms that we may save Spain and its people from the horror and shame that a victory for the bloody hangmen of October would mean.

Let no one hesitate! All stand ready for action. All workers, all antifascists must now look upon each other as brothers in arms.

Peoples of Catalonia, Basque Country and Galicia! All Spaniards! Defend our democratic Republic and consolidate the victory achieved by our people on the 16th of February.

The Communist Party calls you to arms. We especially call upon you, workers, farmers, intellectuals to assume your positions in the fight to finally smash the enemies of the Republic and of the popular liberties. Long live the Popular Front! Long live the union of all anti-fascists! Long live the Republic of the people! The Fascists shall not pass! THEY SHALL NOT PASS!

The bitter taste of defeat has long since passed, the battlecry of "No Pasaran" will remain forever sweet.

[smalll]

12. Very nice.

Didn't Franco tried to portray himself as a post-partisan unifier, as the wave of the future? Sure, the Republic had its issues (the Stalinist/Trotskyist infighting for one thing) but the Republic's imperfections did not make Francoism either desirable or inevitable.

On to Texas and Ohio!

[CTLawGuy]

10. right

no way the health insurance industry would want to force people to give them money.

They REALLY hate hillary's plan to force people to give them money. They want as little money as possible.

[eridani]

14. Clinton is in bed with them too

Who wants to be forced to pay to subsidize private insurance?

[Johnny__Motown]

15. Didn't she start fighting this 14 years ago? How can she say "before we've even started"?

[anamandujano]

17. They put $300 million into savaging her efforts and assassinating her character.

If Obama gets more money, maybe he'll get together a moving image of the Harry and Louise brochure he sent out. Actually those old ads are probably on Youtube now.

The big guys managed to keep the start line at zero.

In the years that have passed, people are realizing they were sold a bill of goods and the crisis has worsened. They are ripe and ready to support her efforts now. They know she means business and will get as much as possible, then add and refine as the people's power over the big entrenched companies grows. That's something truly inevitable.

Obama's plan is status quo. I still can't believe Kennedy signed off on it. Maybe he didn't get around to reading it.

[lligrd]

20. She Suicided Her Character When She Voted For The IWR nt

[anamandujano]

27. Why don't we just mosey on over to barackobama.com for a little edumacation.

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/08/01/the_war_we_need_to_win.php

In ending the war, we must act with more wisdom than we started it. That is why my plan would maintain sufficient forces in the region to target al Qaeda within Iraq. But we must recognize that al Qaeda is not the primary source of violence in Iraq, and has little support -- not from Shia and Kurds who al Qaeda has targeted, or Sunni tribes hostile to foreigners. On the contrary, al Qaeda's appeal within Iraq is enhanced by our troop presence.

Ending the war will help isolate al Qaeda and give Iraqis the incentive and opportunity to take them out. It will also allow us to direct badly needed resources to Afghanistan. Our troops have fought valiantly there, but Iraq has deprived them of the support they need—and deserve. As a result, parts of Afghanistan are falling into the hands of the Taliban, and a mix of terrorism, drugs, and corruption threatens to overwhelm the country.

As President, I would deploy at least two additional brigades to Afghanistan to re-enforce our counter-terrorism operations and support NATO's efforts against the Taliban. As we step up our commitment, our European friends must do the same, and without the burdensome restrictions that have hampered NATO's efforts. We must also put more of an Afghan face on security by improving the training and equipping of the Afghan Army and Police, and including Afghan soldiers in U.S. and NATO operations.

Eternal war, just like McCain.

[rodeodance]

46. I knew he was going negitive whan he put out Harry and Louise!! and he did and has

[OzarkDem]

49. Obama is opposed to ANY health care reform

the way he has campaigned against Clinton's plan shows he's willing to sabotage ANY effort to reform health care. He's using GOP talking points that will even kill chances of his meager little plan from getting passed.

[rodeodance]

58. yes that I do think also.

[anamandujano]

59. His endless war will be the excuse for bowing out of everything he

may have promised. I frankly don't see any promises except hope, inspiration and change.

We will hope more longingly for health care, we will be inspired to live without hope for any improvement in our lives and we will change the battleground of our war from Iraq to Pakistan.

Thanks for helping me out on this Ozark and rodeo.

[jackson_dem]

16. Catch this msm Edwardsing of Hillary

Notice that in the past year the media NEVER mention Obama is also a millionaire lawyer who went to prep school, Columbia, and Harvard Law?

-snip-

Clinton is working hard to project herself as a champion of workers who, as she said, is from the middle class. But though she grew up in a middle-class family in Illinois, she also attended elite East Coast colleges, became a lawyer, was the nation's first lady, is now a senator and has enough wealth that she could lend her campaign $5 million.

[rodeodance]

48. yeah, now i get the picture.

[OzarkDem]

51. How did Obama get to be a millionaire at such an early age?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Skwmom]

18. Gingrich said Clinton adopted the Republican plan for healthcare.

[lligrd]

22. Exactly, Privatized Health Care Is Her Plan

How long before she decides to force people to buy retirement plans due to Social Security's insolvency?

[jackson_dem]

37. Same with St. Obama

[OzarkDem]

52. That's a load of BS

Her plan offers a choice between private plans and a new government insurance plan like Medicare.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

You're either willfully ignorant or lying. Which is it?

[jackson_dem]

40. Did she have Heritage Foundation experts contribute to her plan like someone else?

[Iceburg]

23. And his environmental record looks like it was dictated by the nuclear industry/nt

[rodeodance]

36. Whow HOOOO Hillary---good for you. Fight back. He is gone Neg long time ago