Let's all put our grownup pants on: ALL CANDIDATES SMEAR, LIE, CHEAT.

[Phillycat]

This is national politics, people! None of these candidates would be where he/she is today if he/she wasn't willing to do just about anything to get elected. Lord, you'd think mudslinging was just invented for this campaign judging by the righteous indignation around here.

I have a Hillary avatar because I think she's the better policy wonk and she'll hold up better under the scrutiny of a national campaign. I have no illusions that she's a better person or more "pure" or filled with idealism or compassion than any other candidate. If I was an Obama supporter, I'd feel exactly the same way. Even winning a LOCAL election often requires actions which are "morally flexible", let's say. Imagine what you have to do/ignore/overlook/get your minions to do to be on the national political stage.

They are POLITICIANS. They are TRYING TO GET ELECTED. Can we PLEASE stop holding up one candidate as holier than thou and painting the other as worse than Hitler, and instead talk about, you know, actual issues and stuff?

:banghead:

[sandnsea]

1. NO THEY DO NOT

John Kerry. Ron Wyden. John Edwards. Dennis Kucinich.

You show me where they smeared lied or cheated to win an election. Your argument is the argument of Republican losers like Tom Delay. It needs to end.

[NashVegas]

2. Bwa-ha-ha

Kucinich?

Wake up and smell the fertilizer.

[UALRBSofL]

4. Hillary runs a very clean campaign

If you look at the Obama thread referencing about 25 dirty tricks then you get the message.

[Political Heretic]

15. Hate to break it to you, sport

But that thread is in response to an identical thread about the hillary campaign referencing and linking to all the same stuff.

I don't agree with either thread that the things listed are fairly called lying and cheating. It's just political hardball - both BOTH SIDES DO IT.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4598698

[Phillycat]

20. Neither of them has run a clean campaign, but one is no worse than the other.

I repeat, this is national politics. This is what happens. I don't understand where all the shock and outrage is coming from, and how much it detracts from real discussions of policy and fitness for the position.

[Umbram]

34. Some people find it very difficult

to be introspective enough to look at things objectively, as it requires identifying one's own bias and compensating for it.

It's a healthy exercise to engage in.

Anyone who says either Obama or Hillary haven't attacked each other is clearly fooling themselves.

[Political Heretic]

5. I don't think anyone has truly cheated or lied. But going negative and "spining" facts

to put them in the best possible light for your campaign, or to put your opponent in the worst possible light is a normal, and frankly necessary part of politics that everyone - including Kerry, Wyden, Edwards (my first choice)and Kucinich engage in.

Politics is a blood sport. Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[sandnsea]

7. Election manipulation is not just "spinning" facts

No matter how many ways you turn it, what they've done in this election is beyond the pale.

[Political Heretic]

9. Oh please. What a bunch of hooey.

[sandnsea]

17. That's an argument

:eyes:

It started in Iowa with their lies about students voting and hasn't stopped since. And now they're willing to steal the election with the superdelegates. They're disgusting. There's no way to honestly defend it.

[Political Heretic]

24. "They" aren't doing anything.

The Democratic Party is to blame, and they are attempting to win within a system that is broken.

Of course, Obama is the one saying that the superdelegates should go with whoever has the majority and the Clinton campaign are the ones saying that superdelgates should back her even against the will of the people. So there's a clear choice for me, there.

[sandnsea]

30. How is that?

The Party isn't to blame for her attempts to intimidate students away from voting in Iowa. The Party isn't to blame for the law suit in Nevada, or the fliers that told people nothing is illegal if nobody challenges them. The Party isn't to blame for her pretending the MI & FL elections were legitimate. The Party isn't to blame for any of this. SHE is. Why would you give someone a pass for all of that?

[Political Heretic]

49. Because:

The Iowa issue is a matter of debate.

The lawsuit in Nevada was lame but not illegal.

I don't know about the fliers.

The party is to blame for the entire MI & FL mess, and its too much of a mess to act like Hillary's attempts to get those delegates seated (which I oppose) is some sort of illegitimate tactic.

The party is also to blame for the entire system of superdelegates which is disgusting.

My support of Obama for President does not require me to "hate" or smear or demean or twist and distort all the actions of the other candidate to manipulative depict them as evil incarnate.

Politics is a dirty business, and no one runs a successful national campaign without getting their hands dirty. I think Hillary's done more of it, because I think she is more of a political tactician. And where I support some of Obama's maneuvering, I easily oppose Hillary's in most cases because I usually tend to disagree with her reasoning.

For example, I hate the superdelegate system, and of both the candidates Hillary's campaign is the one getting quoted in the Boston Globe saying they don't care if the majority of the delegates of the people pick Obama, they will push for superdelegates at any cost. I can't call doing that "criminal" or other hyperbolic language, but I viscerally oppose it and it only reinforces my low opinion of the Clinton campaign.

[sandnsea]

53. Ethics are ethics

You don't have any. Ignore.

[Political Heretic]

55. Thank god.

Means I don't have to deal with your tired old crap anymore.

[karynnj]

48. Putting things in the worst light or making the case that you were better

is NORMAL - and is not the lies and smears that Rove's campaigns had. HRC is nowhere near Rove on that - but there have been some things that happened that shouldn't have. I am appalled that people in her campaign are testing whether people will accept a win due to more superdelegates.

[Occam Bandage]

6. I'd take issue with DK (and quite possibly Edwards), but then again DK wasn't actually in it to win.

[hfojvt]

23. smearing and lying are often judgement calls

What is a cheap shot and what isn't? Most candidates are gonna say bad things about their opponents. Most of the opponents are gonna try and charactarize those bad things as "unfair" or "inaccurate" or "dishonest" attacks. It's probably hard to run a successful campaign at the Congressional level without getting very close to crossing the line.

And "close" is gonna be "well over the line" in some people's eyes. Just like no team can win the superbowl without having a hard-hitting defense that roughs up the other team's quarterback and wide receivers, no candidate can win the super-election without having a hard-hitting media team. Fans of one side are always gonna call "unnecessary roughness" against the other side and defend/overlook the same behaviour on their own side. As a purist, I sorta cringe when my team pretends to catch a pass and then tries to hurry with another play before the challenge flag can be thrown.

Tom Delay's argument is kinda different. Every boxer may fight hard, but not every boxer bites his opponent's ear off or hits below the belt. Just because nobody is perfect does not mean everybody's a scumbag.

[sandnsea]

32. Insinuating Obama was a drug dealer

doesn't take a lot of "judgment" to figure that one out. Or the Muslim and Hussein comments from Kerrey. Her campaign has been disgusting.

[Political Heretic]

3. Hear hear! Janesez, telling the truth has united the Blue and the Grey! :P

I couldn't agree more. Well, I said I couldn't agree more, but I guess in my mind I really am not including literal lying or cheating.

I don't think you are either.

All candidates "spin" the facts to paint themselves in the best possible light and/or paint their opponents in the worst possible light. All candidates go negative at times in their run. They have to. It's the way the game works. Politics is a blood sport.

I assumed what you meant was that people who are faking outrage about the fact that the candidates spin to present themselves in the most positive interpretation possible or their opponent in the most negative light possible need to grow up. There have been few things on either side that are fairly characterized as pure lies. There has been few things on either side that can be fairly characterized as cheating - so far. But there's a lot of political tactics and spin and slick messaging..... because this is POLITICS.

It aint a game for the faint of heart.

[LostinVA]

8. And, because of where you're from, you KNOW what dirty campaigns are like

I grew up about 35 minutes away... so, I do, too.

The campaign IRL is not that bad. The campaign on here is worse than a Philly-Jersey election season.

[Political Heretic]

10. lol, now that I agree with. The DU campaign is ugly, dirty, cheating, lying and devisive.

Which is not the same as the actual campaign.

[Phillycat]

13. Seriously. The last mayoral election in Philly was so much uglier

than this could ever hope to be. And that had NOTHIN' on the Rizzo years, heh. If you only went on DU, you'd think they were clawing each other's eyes out.

[LostinVA]

27. I grew up in South Jersey -- I know me some Rizzo

What a crazy mutha. The best EVER was when he ordered a firebombing on his own city. I'm not defending the leaders of MOVE in any way, but how brilliant is it to firebomb a city block???

Did you watch "American Dreams" when it was on a few years ago? They used to crack on Rizzo the cop.

[Phillycat]

35. For the past few years, I lived about 5 blocks from where that happened.

It's a much nicer neighborhood now. :D

I'll miss West Philly. My husband and I moved to the 'burbs after we got married, and we do love it, but I miss the city a little - and I even still work here every day. Something about it gets under your skin...

I didn't watch American Dreams, but my mom loved it, and mentioned how they captured that era in that particular spot perfectly.

[LostinVA]

38. I remember watching the news footage and thinking

"I'm really not surprised Rizzo would do that."

[DS1]

11. You must be some sort of BamaHillbotHoundOmite kool-aid encrusted McCainAcon

[Phillycat]

14. I'm having that needlepointed on a pillow.

[Political Heretic]

18. lol!!

[TexasObserver]

12. Please stop excusing the rotten conduct of Team Hillary the past 7 weeks.

She's run a despicable campaign, all the things that make politics smell like an overflowing toilet.

[Political Heretic]

19. Please - she's run a political campaign. On par with my guys.

Get off the high horse and embrace reality.

[TexasObserver]

31. No she hasn't. She's run a terrible campaign by any standard. And we are not "your guys."

You're not good with political analysis. You might want to stick with whatever it is you do.

Now stumble to some other thread and make another of your famously idiotic posts.

[Political Heretic]

42. What I "do" is political analysis.

[sandnsea]

33. You're not an Obama supporter

Don't even pretend.

[Political Heretic]

43. lol, basic thread search dispells that lie.

[Phillycat]

44. Goodness gracious, apparently if you don't think your candidate

is JESUS CHRIST ON HIGH, you're not a real supporter. God forbid you be realistic about it all.

Wow.

[Political Heretic]

50. I know, its sad. But obviously tensions are running really, really high so I forgive.

I was an edwards supporter first, but I have come to sincerely believe that Obama is the right person at the right place and the right time to be President of the United States. I've never donated to a political campaign before this year, because I've never had a candidate I truly believed in. I had strong policy disagreements with Clinton, but voted for him. No offense, but voting for Gore was before his conversion into a progressive activist, and I saw nothing that really impressed me - but voted for him. I thought, with all due respect, that Kerry was the worst choice of our choices to be nominee, but I voted for him.

This year, right or wrong, I believe in this man, I have read all of his policy proposals and I support them, and I believe in his character, leadership and vision. This is the first time that I really, truly want a guy I can vote for to be President.

[Phillycat]

51. I, too, was an Edwards supporter.

Look at us, a Clinton supporter and an Obama supporter, having a rational discussion. Will this cause the space-time continuum in GD: P to form a rift? :D

[Political Heretic]

52. It's all due to your graphic.

Hammertime! :rofl:

Hammer brings the world together! He is a peace maker.

[Phillycat]

54. Blessed are the MC's, for they shall rule the Game in Heaven....beeyotch!

[UALRBSofL]

21. TexasObserver you are totally mixed up

Your projecting on to Hillary the things Obama is doing.

[Political Heretic]

25. It isn't either/or

[DS1]

26. No! It's your candidate who sucks

Impossible!

Black and white, one and zero, on or off


NO MIDDLE GROUND!

[Johnny__Motown]

16. Not Equally, it is a matter of degree.Choosing the lesser evil is... well.. LESS EVIL

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

22. Not Mine

I'm kidding. I've been reading some of the "evidence" against both of the candidates. Apparently Michelle Obama was "race baiting" because she said that black voters would eventually warm up to Obama. And Hillary is race-baiting because she spoke to black voters.

That's not Smearing, Lying or Cheating. It's a political campaign.

I think it's becase these two candidates are so close (both philosophically and in the polls) that the slightest perceived infraction is treated as though it were a capital offense. You'll notice that there is VERY little substantive discussion around here. Just charges and counter-charges.

[hfojvt]

29. there's only one way to really find substantive discussion

Just look at the icon.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

41. She's a Righteous Babe...

And I hope she gets better soon.

And just in case your're lurking, Elizabeth, I meant "Righteous Babe" in only the most respectful terms!

But if you ever get tired of John, call me. Seriously...

[cboy4]

28. Every time I attempt to explain why I think it's ridiculous

to treat politicians like rock stars, I get pissed on by people who say I'm negative and jealous.

Oh well.

But I agree with your premise.

[xultar]

36. I agree. I've started so many posts tryng to say why the candiate/rock star

idol, messiah thing is nuts also. I get so angry and frustrated I can never post it myself.

That's why I've cut my posts down to a minimum.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

37. You're just saying that because your candidate IS worse than Hitler.

:hide:

OK - maybe not worse than Hitler. But certainly worse than Pol Pot. And Neil Diamond. Put together.

:hug:

[Phillycat]

39. Neil Diamond? HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!!!

:cry:

:D

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

40. You are free...

...to replace Neil Diamond with Barry Manilow or Steely Dan for the purposes of this comparison.

[LSK]

45. yes but Dennis Kucinich walks on water while curing the blind

[XemaSab]

46. I saw him steal a sandwich from an old lady once.

:popcprn:

[Phillycat]

47. ...french-kisses lepers and has bluebirds braid his hair every morning...