Straight people really shouldn't be telling gay people whom to support in this election

[ruggerson]

If you want to listen to us, that's great.

But the vast majority of you don't understand the history of DOMA or DADT, you do not know the political circumstances surrounding them, nor do you have any in depth knowledge of how they have impacted our lives.

Instead, you use them as a transparent political talking point against the Clintons when you want to talk down to the fags and dykes at DU.

There are gay and lesbian Hillary supporters here and gay and lesbian Obama supporters.

If you want to ask US why we support one candidate over another, that's great. Maybe you'll actually learn something.

But don't shove your facile internet research into our faces and then proceed to tell us which candidate is better for us.

And we know, you have a gay brother, sister, best friend - all well and good.

But, you're not living a Jim Crow existence in this country, we are.

Listen to us and hear what we have to say about it. Just as whites wouldn't presume to tell blacks about the black experience and non-jews wouldn't presume to tell jews about the jewish experience, you shouldn't be telling us what to think or feel about these two candidates.

There are tons and tons of well loved straight allies and family on this board. They NEVER start threads telling gay people what to feel. Take your cue from them.

Shut up, for once in your lives, and just sit back and listen.

[boston bean]

1. I would never tell anyone who to vote for, I might tell them they're an idiot for who they're voting

for, but never ever tell them who to vote for.

:P

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[avrdream]

12. Look, we get sick of it, okay?

Some would argue that African Americans are also "sick of it" and that is why they are voting in such huge numbers for BO. I don't know their pain, I'm not black. But I understand being absolutely fed up with being sold out by politicians.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Oh I'm sick of it too.

But I'm not going to pretend that there's any candidate better than the other on this issue. That would be dishonest and, IMO, exploitative.

[freefall]

35. You don't have to be black or gay or lesbian to be fed up with being

sold out by politicians. You only have to be human.

Peace,

freefall

[avrdream]

46. Very true.

[readmoreoften]

77. What? Gay people tell straight people who to vote for? We tell them who REALLY represents their

interests?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

[littlebit]

3. Exactly!!

Great post

[NMMNG]

4. Thank you, thank you, 1,000,000 times, thank you

[Capn Sunshine]

5. Totally agree

I never thought sexual orientation was a voting bloc.

[MonkeyFunk]

6. Thanks

k&r

[IndianaJones]

7. can I at least tell you what to be offended by? nt.

[ruggerson]

57. well of course

that, too

[Bonobo]

8. Nice thread. Soon to join Jew's "Don't tell us who to vote for" and Latina's "Don't tell us either!"

Give us a break.

"Time to shut up and listen."

Nice.

[stevenleser]

30. Yes, ridiculous ...

... there are some people of each discriminated against group who insist on thinking that theirs is the worst discrimination ever experienced by anyone and no one else could possibly understand and thus the rules that apply to everyone else and even other discriminated against classes do not apply to them.

As someone who has been discriminated against and called eipthets for multiple reasons (Part African American, Hispanic and Jewish), I can honestly say that it doesnt feel particularly better or worse depending upon which part of my heritage is being attacked. I doubt if I was gay and one of the epithets used against me included that part of who I was that it would feel any different.

I realize that we are in the middle of a heated election season and the OP and others in the GLBT community have experienced disgusting bigotry all of their lives as well and the OP is probably mad about something in particular that someone said to him recently, but the demands in the OP are not rational.

[NMMNG]

43. Question for you.

As someone who has been discriminated against and called eipthets for multiple reasons (Part African American, Hispanic and Jewish), I can honestly say that it doesnt feel particularly better or worse depending upon which part of my heritage is being attacked.


Are you legally denied any of your Civil/Human Rights because you are AA, Hispanic or Jewish?

[stevenleser]

45. Yes.

Or did you never hear of DWB/DWH? Let me ask you a question in return. Did you have all of the family on one side wiped out because you are gay? Do people look at you and immediately know you are a minority?

[NMMNG]

51. I'll ask you again more explicitly.

Are there laws that prevent you from fully exercising your Human and Civil Rights, or a lack of laws to support your Human and Civil Rights.

I'm not referring to jackasses who discriminate against people in violation against existing legislation. That happens to every minority.


And don't even go there with the "you can remain in the closet if you want to in order to avoid discrimination" crap.

[stevenleser]

59. You dont need an answer from me.

You are determined to pigeonhole me and this argument, but it isnt about what you are trying to make it about. Since what you are asking is in effect, a boolean answer, why dont you just tell me what you would answer if I said 'Yes' and what you would aay if I answered 'No'.

The reality is, since the discrimination against every group is different, every group can do what you just did. Yes, you experience X but do you experience Y or Z? That was the point I was trying to make with my responses to you.

[NMMNG]

62. The point I'm trying to make is very simple

LGBT people are still legally denied many of the Civil and Human Rights afforded to every other group in America. I am not talking discrimination, I am talking Civil and Human Rights. You have them. We don't.

[stevenleser]

76. And, circling back...

how does that justify the OP telling us to shut up and not make arguments to GLBT people on behalf of our candidates?

Queue the Jeopardy music...

[NMMNG]

79. Here is someone who got it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4595601&mesg_id=4596271

Since you obviously don't.

Make a case for your candidate if you want. That's what campaigning is all about. But that's where it ends.


We are the ones who don't have many of the Civil and Human Rights that you do. We are the ones who are dealing with the problems unique to our lives. Therefore you have no right to preach to us about what we should or should not consider homophobic/bi phobic/transphobic. You have no right to demand we should take your word for things WRT LGBT issues when you spew talking points from some Website or hit-piece off a Blog, etc. You don't get to have the last word on what is or isn't going to make life better/worse for us--that's our decision.

[stevenleser]

84. No, YOU dont get it...

On a political website that is for discussing politics, no less, the OP, who isnt a moderator here, is telling us what we can and cannot say and to whom. That is offensive on its face, but then what he is attempting to stop is those of us who are in favor of a particular candidate from making arguments about that candidate to a particular minority. The 'best' argument someone has come up in the OPs defense is that the particular minority experiences some types of discrimination that is unique to them. To which I responded with the obvious, every minority group experiences types of discrimination that are unique. But lets not miss the point.

Dont tell people to shut up and dont tell them what they can say and to whom. If Skinner and other mods choose to do so, that is their business.

[NMMNG]

88. I'm not telling you what you can or cannot say

You can say whatever the hell you want. But don't get pissy when we don't like what you have to say, which is what far to many of you are doing here. You can cram your candidate down our throats all you want but you cannot make us believe or accept. You are not LGBT so you will never know what it is like. Ever.

And now I'm done with you for you obviously don't care, nor do you want to.

[stevenleser]

126. The OP is absolutely trying to tell us what to say. I think that is the whole point of the OP

... and that is what I find so offensive.

[ruggerson]

83. Feel free to do whatever you want

but know that a straight person lecturing US about the dynamics of issues pertaining to gays and lesbians is absurd, ignorant and patronizing. All at the same time.

[stevenleser]

85. And know that someone who is not a mod on a political website

trying to inappropriately censor other people in their political discussion is exponentially more absurd, ignorant and patronizing.

[ruggerson]

90. Your point is specious

The OP must quite clear to you by now, as four or five people have broken it down for you, yet you keep ignoring the central point of the OP and focus, instead, on the idiotic assertion that it is about censorship. Which leads me to believe that you are just spinning around, engaging in sophistry so as to not address the argument.

[NMMNG]

94. Look at the source

There are a number of his kind here and we've been battling them for how long? I've put him on Ignore already as it's obvious he's not interested in discussion but rather division and animosity. You either bow down to them or suffer the consequences, as far as they're concerned. I adamantly refuse.

[BlackVelvet04]

102. Oh please.......

you sound like a rebellious child.

[stevenleser]

106. And, whats your point? Here is an illustration of how silly this thread is...

In this thread---> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4593703&mesg_id=4599024 a member of the GLBT community asked us why she should continue to support a women's right to choose when her rights are comparatively unaddressed. My link above is to my response.

Consider that in contrast to what the OP in THIS thread is saying that our opinions (as straight people) are not even welcome. Then various responders here made all of these assumptions about me for no good reason other than the fact that I find one DUers attempts to silence another's opinions offensive. In fact, if anyone here cared at all to find out a little more about me before making these assumptions, you would find out that:

1. I worked with one of the founding members of the National Stonewall Democrats to help start the first Triangle Democratic Club in Pinellas County Florida

2. As a lower tier political journalist, I have written several articles arguing for equal rights for the GLBT community, like this one---> http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_steven_l_060606_bush_and_rove_wag_th.htm

3. When I was employed at PricewaterhouseCoopers, I was one of, if not the first straight person to join the employee GLBT advocate organization and offered it my enthusiastic support from day one.

So you will all perhaps better understand now that I am very offended when people tell me that I cannot advocate my chosen candidate to a group of which while I am not exactly a member, it is one that I viscerally identify with.

[Midlodemocrat]

250. Great post, ruggerson.

:thumbsup:

Some people will NEVER get it.

[LostinVA]

113. No, you aren't

Your rights are trampled upon via DWB, BUT YOU HAVE THE RIGHTS THAT ARE BEING TRAMPLED UPON.

[stevenleser]

116. OK, I'll discuss this even though it is not related to the OP... you absolutely have these rights...

To wit:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

------------------------------------------------

It does not matter what any government says, the rights you have are unalienable.

But, as I said, none of this has anything to do with the idea that someone thinks that one minority here has the right to say to the rest of the DU population that we cannot advocate ideas or candidates to them.

[ruggerson]

140. Where did anyone say you cannot advocate your ideas?

The OP says one should not fling DOMA and DADT and ENDA around when one don't have any idea what one's talking about. There are few heterosexuals here who fully understand the dynamics of these issues, and their history, well enough to be credibly using them as talking points. You seem to have replaced the word "shouldn't" in the OP with "cannot" and then have proceeded to mindlessly rail against your own manufactured, mistaken distortion of what the OP states.

[stevenleser]

149. Distortion? I read what you wrote several times before deciding to respond.

And these were your closing paragraphs:


Listen to us and hear what we have to say about it. Just as whites wouldn't presume to tell blacks about the black experience and non-jews wouldn't presume to tell jews about the jewish experience, you shouldn't be telling us what to think or feel about these two candidates.

There are tons and tons of well loved straight allies and family on this board. They NEVER start threads telling gay people what to feel. Take your cue from them.

Shut up, for once in your lives, and just sit back and listen.

---------------------------------------------------------------

You mentioned DOMA DADT and the other issues much earlier on in the post and they did not seem to be modifiers to your ending information.

If I took this the wrong way, I sincerely apologize, but given your above response to me, that is not the message the OP conveighs.

[ruggerson]

226. The key word is listen

the OP is advising people not to pretend that they understand the complexity of gay issues better than gay people themselves do. That's it. In a nutshell. I don't know Israeli/Palestinian issues better than someone who experiences them, who lives in Gaza, for example - and it would be highly presumptuous and a bit disingenuous of me to pretend that I do. Perhaps the title of the OP is a bit attention grabbing - a better one might have been "Straight people really shouldn't be lecturing gay people about gay issues." But since the intent of the lecturing is really to advocate for a specific candidate, I think we're parsing here; the intent of the OP is obviously quite clear to most.

[stevenleser]

264. You realize that if we extend this a bit further...

if "straight people" cannot "lecture" gay people about gay issues than none of the candidates would be able to talk about gay issues.

When I was attempting to start the first ever Triangle Democratic Club in Pinellas county, Florida, I was asked to attend a service at a local Unitarian church that had a large GLBT component of its congregation and talk to them about the new club and its goals. Should I have assumed that my talking about issues concerning the GLBT community was not welcome?

When I campaigned for Gore/Lieberman in 2000, I went to the Suncoast resort in Pinellas, which was a resort that catered to the GLBT community. It sadly has been bought out and made into condos or some such thing. But I went there, staffed a table and discussed with anyone who came by how Gore intended to deal with GLBT issues and asked them if they would work for the campaign or at least to vote for Gore. Was I a bad person for doing so?

I happen to be very well versed in GLBT issues and very concerned about them. I've educated myself quite well about them because I care. But according to you, my usefulness on that score is limited to shutting up and listening. Are you getting how insulting that is?

[Jamastiene]

174. Find the law that says DWB/DWH is illegal. I CHALLENGE you to find a law like that anywhere in this

country. You won't find it, because it is not there. There are special laws made to discriminate against GLBT people though. Y'all seem to think we are asking for "special" rights, but don't mind making "special" laws just to keep us from having rights. Don't even get me started. Welcome to ignore. I've had it with the homophobes on here. From now on, I'm putting you in the haters category if you spew shit like that. What an insult.

[hfojvt]

49. not at all, I think you both misread the OP

it's not about not telling gays who to vote for, it's about straight people claiming that they understand GLBT issues better than GLBT people themselves.

It makes perfect sense to me, that unless I have spent years researching these issues (and why would I without a vested interest?) that it would be the height of hubris to claim to understand them better than people who do have a vested interest in them. I cannot read a few books and then claim to understand Jewish, GLBT, black, hispanic, or whatever issues better than people in those groups themselves do. If I try it is quite likely I will make a jacka$$ out of myself. But it won't be the first time.

However, if GLBT people are voting based on economic or working class issues, then I can certainly speak to that. There I can claim a membership as well as some research and education.

[ruggerson]

61. Exactly, thank you

I thought I was fairly clear, guess not.

[Straight Shooter]

65. Your words were clear, to those who can read them without filters. n/t

[stevenleser]

66. I dont think that those are fair assumptions...

since most people are not political at all and never do research on political topics, you cannot make the assumption that they know more about a candidates position on their minority class than someone who isnt part of that class who is very involved politically.

Even if one knows more than the other, that still does not preclude either from making one or more good arguments on a given point.

[readmoreoften]

81. No, you can tell them where your candidate stands on their issues. But that's it.

But if a significant minority population is "turned off" to your candidate because of an act or an attitude, then you have no right to school them in what "really matters" about their political situation.

All else is arrogance.

[stevenleser]

111. Ah, a reasoned response. Lets explore that a little further...

- No, you can tell them where your candidate stands on their issues. But that's it.

So, you are saying that I should offer no opinion and just copy and paste their issues page... on a political discussion forum. That makes sense to you?

-But if a significant minority population is "turned off" to your candidate because of an act or an attitude, then you have no right to school them in what "really matters" about their political situation. All else is arrogance.

So, you are saying that on a political discussion forum, where heated issues are discussed and debated, that all of a sudden, advocating my candidate to any minority is now forbidden or at least considered very poor taste if a 'signifiant...population' of that minority might be turned off to that candidate because of an act or attitude of that candidate. I have no RIGHT to try to inform or persuade them (you used the word 'school' but that is really what that means).

Now, as one person already pointed out, most of us do not have immediately self identifying information on our posts. So, it would be very difficult on an ongoing basis to find out and track whether a majority of any minority is upset about any given candidate for any reason. If we combine that with the fact that the very point of us being here is to engage each other and debate the issues and support of candidates, this entire OP and its line of reasoning is out of place and inappropriate.

[readmoreoften]

82. You've made some excellent points. Cheers. /nt

[Jamastiene]

173. Well, the same rules don't apply to us, because we don't fucking have any rights.

I'll vote for who I want to vote for. I will NOT have that right taken away because of someone like you who has no compassion.

[stevenleser]

265. Let me get this straight...

You are taking my objection to someone telling me to shut up as an attempt to disenfranchise you?

[readmoreoften]

78. You go around telling Latinas that you know better than they do about their interests?

The OP is about how arrogant you are in thinking you know the issues of minorities better than the minorities themselves. If you can't grasp that then you're a fool.

[smalll]

194. "Jew's"??? "Latina's"??? - I'm hitting alert!

You're clearly a paid shill for the apostrophe companies.
Just say no to Big Apostrophe!

[hiaasenrocks]

9. I don't think anyone should telling anyone else how to vote

on issues that they don't know much about. I would never tell a gay person how to vote because I don't know much about the issues and it's not something on my radar. Again, I don't think anyone should tell anyone how to vote. And for the record, can we assume that you will give the same admonishment to gay people advising straight people on how they should vote, based on gay issues? (That happened to me in another thread.)

I do find it funny, though, that you're telling people not to tell you something and you end your post with "shut up and listen." That's a strange way to begin a dialog but perhaps you will have some takers.

[geek tragedy]

10. I agree. Do YOU agree that

straight Clinton supporters should stop using Donnie McDumbass as a political football, as opposed to GLBT folks who have every right to express their hurt over that?

[Sapphocrat]

11. Beautiful, as always.

K&R

[katty]

13. great post

[angie_love]

14. I don't know whos done that and I never have but told any gay person they should choose one over the

other. I'm sure both candidates support gay rights.

[terrya]

16. This post just went to the Greatest Page, ruggerson. Thanks.

Great post. Again. Thank you.

[HooptieWagon]

17. How are we supposed to know

who's gay and who's straight? Hell most of the time I don't even know if a poster is a man or a woman.

[stevenleser]

41. And it doesnt matter. The whole premise of the OP is ridiculous...

... its disappointing to see people jump on the bandwagon here.

[maddiejoan]

18. Thanks, ruggerson

well said

[boppers]

19. Hear hear. n\t.

[EffieBlack]

20. Nice. Thanks.

[stevenleser]

21. Sorry, doesnt wash...

... it is the nature of politics for people to tell others for whom they think they should vote. I'll go farther than that, its essential that people do that. When I have decided to support a candidate, I absolutely will tell people of various backgrounds why I think they should vote for that candidate and why, and if possible I will tailor that explanation to their background.

The ironic thing is that as I have canvassed for various candidates, I have had people ask me, "Why should I as a Black man/Black woman/Poor Person/Latino etc..." vote for your candidate. And, yes, I have had members of the GLBT community do that too and I tell them what I think. I'm sorry if you think that being gay means that I cant do that for people like you, but I will continue to do so.

[incapsulated]

22. Meh, they tell me what to think as a woman and call me a

"Paleo-feminist", "confused and irrelevant".

Really, there is very little introspection or, haha, sensitivity here.

[mculator]

23. ok can I ask? please vote for hillary.

[hulklogan]

24. Thank you!

I hope the militant straights around here read this post.

(Not every straight person on DU is a militant straight :pals:)

[NMMNG]

91. Sadly they have

And they're all here telling us what to do, as usual. :eyes:

[cbayer]

25. I am a straight person who wants to know.

So I am not sure of what to make of this. I am just seeing the same mudslinging going on in the LGBT community as the rest of gd:p.

I made a direct and honest request earlier and got no response:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4593703

I would really appreciate an honest discourse on the positions of both the candidates, but that is just not what I am seeing here.

[Sapphocrat]

40. You've gotten no response yet, because...

...as I said, I want to sit back a while and see where the thread goes (mainly so I don't "taint" its natural evolution, whatever that may be):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4593703&mesg_id=4594261

Have faith! Have HOPE! :D

[cbayer]

44. No problem. thanks for responding. I am very hopeful, but faith fading fast. nt.

[dbackjon]

26. K&R - beautiful post

[TomInTib]

27. As I am sure that you would agree, the opposite should apply as well.

Hell, I wouldn't presume that I have the right or the knowledge to tell anyone who they should support.

[Fovea]

28. Self Delete

Because this was not really worth responding to.

[theHandpuppet]

29. A big ol' K&R!!!!!!

Thanks, ruggerson!

:kick:

[totodeinhere]

31. It's the nature of a campaign to try to get people to vote for your candidate.

I don't know if you consider campaigning the equivalent of "telling people how to vote." So let me ask, is it OK for a straight person who supports Obama to campaign for him among GLBT's, or are we supposed to have no dialog with GLBT's about the campaign?

[maddiejoan]

33. I have no problems with someone "telling me how to vote"

I have problems with people telling me things like "Get over it" or "your outrage is false"

[stevenleser]

34. Yes, I dont think the OP really thought about this at all...

... the whole idea of campaigning for a candidate is telling people for whom to vote.

[ruggerson]

39. Big difference between wanting a dialogue with the intent to listen and HEAR

versus telling people why they should think one way over another, armed with glib, incorrect talking points.

[totodeinhere]

47. Every political campaign includes "glib, incorrect talking points."

[mondo joe]

87. "Dialog" implies LISTENING. Something that has been lacking in the arguments against what

many GLBT people are saying.

[smoogatz]

32. Well said.

Although you're wrong about one thing: there are plenty of white people on DU who have no problem telling black people who to vote for. There's plenty of condescension to go around. My personal view is that we've all pretty much made up our minds by now, which means that 99% of gdp is just futile wankery. Apparently we like it that way.

[theHandpuppet]

36. BECAUSE THIS IS OUR REALITY

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-...


Oxnard student declared brain dead

By Catherine Saillant and Gregory W. Griggs, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
February 14, 2008
An Oxnard junior high student who was shot in the head by a classmate earlier this week was declared brain dead Wednesday, and the 14-year-old male suspect now faces a first-degree murder charge, authorities said.

<SNIPPING>.

... several students at the south Oxnard campus said King and his alleged assailant had a falling out stemming from King's sexual orientation.

"He would come to school in high-heeled boots, makeup, jewelry and painted nails -- the whole thing," said Michael Sweeney, 13, an eighth-grader. "That was freaking the guys out."

Student Juan Sandoval, 14, said he shared a fourth-period algebra class with the suspect, whom he described as a calm, smart student who played on the basketball team. "I didn't think he was that kind of kid," Sandoval said. "I guess you never know. He made a big mistake."

[stevenleser]

37. Yes, this has never happened to Blacks or Jews or anyone else...

... most of us would not be here on DU if we did not wholeheartedly support equal rights for all, so stop talking to us as if we dont.

[NMMNG]

53. Do you have people here on DU

claiming bigotry towards Blacks, Jews or anybody else is excusable because it's their "religious belief" or "that's how they were raised"?

[stevenleser]

60. Do you have people here on DU

claiming bigotry towards anyone in the GLBT community becase it is their religious belief or how they were raised? I think any such people should be Tombstoned.

[DURHAM D]

63. I am hoping that will soon be your fate -

on the other hand I guess being ignorant is your "choice", perhaps your only choice.

Everyone is being too nice to you.

[stevenleser]

74. Ignorant about what, pray tell me. And for what do you think I should be Tombstoned?

Or is censorship for no particular reason a hobby of yours? If there is something that deserves Tombstoning...

[NMMNG]

64. The people who *openly* state that they themselves are homophobes

get tombstoned (though others fly under the radar for a long while with innuendo, little barbs and other sly tactics). Those who excuse the bigotry of others in the name of "deeply held religious beliefs" or "just another opinion" don't, as it's not their own bigotry.

[theHandpuppet]

72. So on what basis do you think candidates justify...

... their belief that marriage should be reserved for heterosexual couples?

[stevenleser]

75. I don't really care on what they think they are justifying it...

... I think they are wrong and that it is an obvious equal protection issue. The GLBT community should be allowed to marry and be just as miserable as the rest of us.

[Der Blaue Engel]

285. Every day n/t

[readmoreoften]

92. What is this "THIS" you're talking about? You need to step back and check yourself.

What has "never happened to Blacks and Jews"?

Do you know that there are Black and Jewish LGBT people? Do you know that there are Black and Jewish LGBT on DU? Are you assuming that what is happening to LGBT people is "new" or "recent" or the "next group of people for good straight white people to liberate"? We've existed as long as humanity has existed and we've put up with shit in the US for as long as anyone else. We were systematically put to death, mutilated, and institutionalized throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. We were subject to legal dress codes throughout the mid and even later 20th century which--regularly--left us at the mercy of cops who beat and raped us. Our struggles have run parallel and intertwined with all other struggles for justice since the goddamned French Revolution.

It's not about supporting equal rights--or saying that you do. You support equal rights? What do you want a cookie? It doesn't make you a a good person. It's simply the only reasonable position to have. Just because a straight/white/male believes in equal rights doesn't mean that he gets to have a superior, condescending, and arrogant attitude towards LGBT/non-white/non-male populations. You don't get to run the show. You don't tell us what we ought to be doing. We're not here to make you realize how enlightened you are. You shut up and learn from us.

I have NO RIGHT to tell an African-American what their "real" political needs are, which outrages are "acceptable", and which outrages are "false" and what they ought to "get over." They know better than I do. I can help and be an ally to their community, but I cannot dictate to their community what should be important to them in my white-ass opinion. I can shut up and listen. Same with straights.

[NMMNG]

96. You go, girl

:applause:

[stevenleser]

108. LOL, way to reward pontification completely unrelated to what I was saying

...but if that makes you feel better...

[stevenleser]

107. There is nothing in your response that remotely relates to what I was saying, so...

no response is necessary beyond that.

[Bluenorthwest]

129. I have to say it...

readmore, you are the greatest.

[Jamastiene]

183. I wish I could nominate individual posts.

I'd so Recommend your post here. :thumbsup:

[Bluebear]

232. Look upthread. Someone told us "white gays" not to compare ourselves to blacks,

[nonconformist]

38. This straight woman is giving you a big hearty K & R! Well said! nt

[LostinVA]

115. Nonconformist ROCKS on GLBT issues!

I our many straight allies on here: Midlo, MrsG, Maddy, MarrahG, et al. And, a special shout out to our straight guys: Tyler Durden, Flvegan, Starbucks Anarchist, Fred Scuttle, et al. I wish I could fit you all in here!

[nonconformist]

145. Thanks so much!

That means a great deal to me. :hug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

288. I got a shout-out!

:hi:

[Reterr]

42. k&r.eom

[no name no slogan]

48. Let's quit pretending HRC is the GLBT savior then, too

Neither Obama OR Clinton have a stellar record on GLBT issues. Neither are in favor of full marriage rights. Hillary wants to repeal DOMA now, but where was she when it was being passed?

Yes, Obama hired that jackass McClurkin to campaign for him. That was despicable. But Hillary has also pandered to the right, and made statements saying that marriage is a man and woman.

Instead of puffing up Hillary and destroying Obama, we should be DEMANDING that ALL our candidates take a stand for equal rights for EVERYONE, and not just settle for the evil of two lessers.

Until we ALL do that, we continue to get what we deserve (IOW: same shit, different day).

[eridani]

99. Bingo. Too bad Kucinich isn't on stage to bring it up n/t

[readmoreoften]

103. I don't like either of them. I'm just PARTICULARLY skeptical about Obama. /nt

[donheld]

105. Exactly

:applause: I wish everybody would stop trying to bully people into voting for their candidate. Gay, Straight, Black, White, Male, Female, Cat, Dog. Just tell us why your candidate is "the one" and move on.

[Bread and Circus]

50. I've listened and all I hear is MCLURKIN1!!!1!!1!!!!! about 5,000,000,000 times...

then I get the GLBT community thought and word police coming down on my because my cultural use of a word is different from theirs.

Well, I talked it all over with my wife and I understand it better now and she made we aware of the animosity between the GLBT and the AA communities which I wasn't aware of before. I won't call it racism on your part but I no longer want to be part of what I consider a lot of ugliness and hatred between two communities.

I no longer want to listen to people telling me exactly how I can think and how I am supposed to use words. Alas, about 3 dozen people are now on ignore and you will be too.

If you want people to listen to your challenges then treat them with some human decency.

Every one of my political votes has been Democratic from age 18 until now. I've only given money to Democratic candidates and causes. If a referendum was on my state for Gay marriage I'd be the first to do my part to vote in favor of it.

But I no longer want to hear from the GLBT community on DU or talk to it. You act like a pack of attack dogs, striking in unison.

Bye.

[Psyop Samurai]

67. You may not be hearing from the entire GLBT community, B&C...

...and your frustration is noted by this 50 year old GWM.

I have mostly avoided GLBT-related topics on DU, as I generally find the atmosphere to be overheated and counterproductive. By the time I discover a topic, they've already fought the war and buried the dead, and there's not much room for any kind of sense of proportion. It distresses me, but to be honest, I have more important fish to fry.

[Straight Shooter]

69. This diatribe from someone who considers Edwards a "twinkie" and "not a man."

:eyes:

[Sapphocrat]

95. Now, that's unity for ya.

"But I no longer want to hear from the GLBT community on DU or talk to it. You act like a pack of attack dogs, striking in unison."

Because you don't LIKE what you're hearing. Because you don't like the fact that you can't browbeat us into submission. Because your fragile little bubble of cognitive dissonance is about to burst.

"But I no longer want to hear from the GLBT community on DU or talk to it. You act like a pack of attack dogs, striking in unison."

Holy crap. I guess all it took was pushing you so far before you really admitted to what you've been feeling all along. Thank God you finally showed your true colors.

Hey, Obama supporters: Do you still wonder why so many HRC supporters question this "unity" bullshit? Or why so many LGBTs trust you as far as we could throw a house?

This is why.

[Prism]

133. A handful of posters does not a community make

The truth of the matter is that the gay community is not one monolithic group of uniform opinion - although many of the McClukinites would have everyone believe an entire host of ridiculous things.

There are some around these parts who believe they alone are the arbiters of gay opinion. You see an awful lot of the royal "we" come into use during this stuff. Some seem to think that because they are gay, they have the right to lecture straight people without criticism. But sexual orientation is not a shield nor a sword. It does not immunize someone from being told their opinion is incorrect. It does not grant them preternatual exemption from being told their reasons for feeling one way or another may be illogical.

If you read the dozens of threads in all of this, you see one line of argument crop up over and over and over again.

"You can't tell me I'm wrong! I'm gay!"

And that's basically it. "I'm gay, you're not, therefore you have no right to tell me that maybe I'm wrong in my opinions."

This is the darker side of identity politics, the idea that by virtue of being who you are, you are automatically assigned Solomnic wisdom in determining what situations and incidents are important and which are not. Which opinions are acceptable, and which are not. And most insidiously, which attitudes, opinions, and criticisms are homophobic and which are not.

That's another line of attack we've seen in all of this. "I'm gay, therefore if I say it's homophobic, it's homophobic." There doesn't have to be a solid logic or a firm foundation of facts to the accusation of homophobia. No, the poster merely needs to "feel" that it's homophobic, and by virtue of their orientation, they believe they have the power to unilaterally declare that this or that person is a bigot. They then use that self-assigned power to browbeat straights into agreeing with them or at least shutting up. Because they know that most well-meaning straights supportive of our community can be shut up by even the threat of four or five gay people intimating they're a bigoted homophobe.

Fortunately, this breed of self-righteous gay is mostly limited to the political sphere. You don't seem them much in the real world. I cannot think of a single friend or former boyfriend who has ever been infused with the Divine Shield of Critical Immunity that many gays in these threads seem to be armed with. In the real world, most of us gays are human and make errors and mistakes in our opinions on gay issues. In the real world, most of us gays accept criticism, entertain arguments, and have not weaponized our sexuality as a bludgeon to censor others.

The only thing I want as a gay man in this country is to be treated exactly the same as every other human being. Equality means telling me I'm being stupid, or wrong, or ridiculous, or illogical when it's warranted - the same as you would any other person. People should not be afraid to express their opinions to me. If someone is censoring themselves in their opinion with me merely by virtue of my sexuality, then they are not treating me equally.

Equality means taking the good and the bad in life. I don't think many of these posters want equality. They want special treatment in the realm of political debate. Well, they don't have a right to that. They have to stand and fall on their arguments, not their orientation.

And I would say that well-meaning straights who cheer on this attitude in order to prove their gay-friendly bona fides are doing more harm than good. It's condescending and patronizing for straight people to pat gays on the head and tell us "You can do whatever you want, dear. I'm with you!" No, damnit. If I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. That's treating me equally. That's treating me like an adult. That's treating me like an American citizen.

That's what most gays want. Unfortunately, many of them aren't posting on this political board a hundred times a day. I'm sorry that my community is being represented so harshly and disproportionately, but it's the internets. What can ya do.

[Laughing Mirror]

136. Beautiful post!

Beautiful, because it is true.

Thank you.

[Bread and Circus]

151. Thank you for this.... in real life I've had nothing but positive experiences

with my gay friends, relatives, and patients. We are all the same deep down and I think all we really thirst for is love and common respect.

Your post was eloquent and touched my heart. I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate it and find in it the common truth.

For what it's worth, I take the negative talk on this board with a grain of salt. Outside this realm my feelings for the gay community are still of appreciation, respect, and warmth. I stand shoulder to shoulder with you on matters of equality and legal rights.

:grouphug:

[Prism]

259. It's important to remember . . .

. . . that our causes are more common than not. Especially in an election where demographics or pandered to, it's easy for anyone, myself included, to be nudged into that "My issues vs Your issues" mentality. Once it takes hold, it can be very difficult to move beyond it.

I'm sorry you got boxed about the ears with accusations of homophobia when you made a very innocent comment. It was wrong.

[Egnever]

175. Its posts like this that bring me back to this place over and over

You have to wade through a lot of mud to find em sometimes but the payoff is sweet.

Thanks for that it was well said.

[ruggerson]

231. A couple of points

This OP is not about McClurkin. You've bought into the intentional misdirection of the poster you've responded to, instead of addressing the central points in the body of the OP.

I've been critical of Obama for a number of things. I haven't posted many OP's about McClurkin, since it occurred (though I've responded in a number of threads), but I do not begrudge those who do still post about it, because their point of view is just as valid as your own.

You interpet the gist of the argument to be: "I'm gay, you're not, therefore you have no right to tell me that maybe I'm wrong in my opinions."

Where in the OP does it say that anyone doesn't have the "right" to tell anyone else they are wrong in their opinions? Of course they have the right. I suggest they "shouldn't" be telling gay people what to think about specifically gay issues, because it's arrogant, patronizing and transparent candidate advocacy masquerading as genuine concern about gay rights. Is there a difference between telling someone they "shouldn't" do something and telling someone they "have no right" to do something? I think after some thought you might admit that the difference isn't even subtle, it's glaring.

I admit that the words "shut up" bring about visceral reactions in some. But that sentence is really far more about the word "listen." As in, really try to hear people instead of tossing out a partisan bomb in response to everything with which one disagrees.

Furthermore, my post isn't even remotely about identity politics. It's about being honest about one's intent and being truthful about the extent of one's familiarity with a specific set of concerns.

You are doing the very thing to which your post objects. You generalize about the OP (I'm assuming, because you're writing it in this thread), mischaracterize its intent and then proceed to proclaim its illegitimacy, using your mistaken generalizations as a weapon to proclaim it as an example of self serving identity politics. A tactic which is, gently, pretty darn dishonest.

I think many of us welcome debate. What I do not welcome is intellectual dishonesty. Arming oneself with quickly researched internet talking points about various gay rights issues with the intent to agitate in defense of a candidate whose motives are being legitimately questioned is glib partisanship badly gussied up as serious debate.

Gay people, as you note, are not monolithic. I, for one, welcome serious debate about many issues and have never been quick to assign bigoted motives to a sparring partner, unless confronted with evident, angry prejudice.

You rail against what you perceive as the politicized, assumptive "we" of message board politics. But then you immediately proceed, in your last sentence, to pronounce "That's what most gays want."

You set up a red herring to knock down, and then immediately transform yourself into that to which you would demean.

[Prism]

258. It was a general reply

And given there are/were several dozen McClurkin threads, this one seemed as good a place as any to post it. So points about my post not being related to the OP are fair, because responding specifically wasn't my intention. As B&C had come in for some pretty unfair treatment, I wanted to say a few things about the whole tone of how this topic has played out, but I didn't really feel it required yet another thread on a worn out subject.

There has been a lot of ugliness from a dozen or so very vocal LGBT posters on this McClurkin issue. Including accusations of homophobia where none is in evidence, exhortations that if someone isn't gay they have no right to disagree or form an independent opinion on gay issues, that disagreement on the McClurkin issue is automatically indicative that the poster doesn't care about gay issues, that if someone doesn't think McClurkin is as big a deal as the poster does it's because they're somehow ok with the ex-gay movement. Then there's a host of victimology where there seems to be a game of "Who's suffered the most?! For their opinion is most valid." Sorry, don't subscribe to it, and as a gay man I've experienced plenty of suffering. It is not a contest.

Then there's the tone. You know, fighting for our equality is not necessarily synonymous with shouting. Sometimes fighting means being smart, picking battles, finding the best approach to each individual you're addressing, having the wisdom to know when fighting means shouting and when fighting means listening and understanding.

Like Clinton, some people decided to turn up the heat without shedding any light. It's counter-productive to our cause. No one listens when you walk up to them and scream in their face. They just want the person to go away. That's human nature. Even I was sitting here lurking/reading after awhile and thinking "If I am completely sick and tired of these posts and their tone and the attempt to browbeat people into agreement, I cannot imagine what sympathetic straights must think about it."

It is important to remember that we do share in the same cause, even if our approaches may differ.

But if you're getting nowhere with a lot of straight posters, as I've seen many of the people I'm referencing imply, maybe the assumption shouldn't automatically be "Obviously straights don't understand our issues." Maybe the first question to ask is "Am I framing or communicating my message in the most persuasive manner, or am I turning people off?"

This McClurkin stuff? I see a lot of our potential allies being turned off. Not because they don't care, but because they don't like being smacked around for not agreeing 100% with some vocal posters. And when that becomes the case, who's cause is being advanced? Not ours.

[stevenleser]

270. This and your post before it was simply wonderful.

In particular:

"That's another line of attack we've seen in all of this. "I'm gay, therefore if I say it's homophobic, it's homophobic." There doesn't have to be a solid logic or a firm foundation of facts to the accusation of homophobia. No, the poster merely needs to "feel" that it's homophobic, and by virtue of their orientation, they believe they have the power to unilaterally declare that this or that person is a bigot. They then use that self-assigned power to browbeat straights into agreeing with them or at least shutting up. Because they know that most well-meaning straights supportive of our community can be shut up by even the threat of four or five gay people intimating they're a bigoted homophobe."

Thank you, thank you, thank you for getting it!

[hulklogan]

52. A big thank you for attracting all of the people I need to put on my ignore list

like moths to a flame. :applause:

How come so many straight people are feeling grouchy around here today?

[NMMNG]

54. Cognitive dissonance?

[Bucky]

55. "Shut up, for once in your lives, and just sit back and listen."

I don't know who you're angry at, but it sure as hell ain't Barack Obama.

[ruggerson]

56. If you think this was about Barack Obama

or you think I'm angry, you didn't even begin to get the OP.

[mmonk]

58. Who is telling you who to vote for?

You also might want to try another tack than you have been using. We don't claim to be perfect or know what it's like to be you. But that doesn't mean we don't support your cause (at least the majority I would think here at DU).

[sueragingroz]

68. K & R /nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

70. Does that mean that gay people should not telling straight people whom to support in this election?

:shrug:

[stevenleser]

109. Yes, and we can keep going...

non-union should not be telling union, blacks, whites, latinos, asians, wealthy, poor, middle class, etc. We'll get to the point where no one is allowed to advocate their candidate to anyone. That is why this thread is silly.

[Iceburg]

71. Kick for the kidz/nt

[LittleClarkie]

73. In turn, I hope not to be told I'm a homophobe by who I'm supporting

Hasn't happened yet... I don't think... but I would hope it wouldn't. Don't judge how I feel about certain issues by who I support. I might be supporting someone DESPITE certain issues.

[Bluenorthwest]

135. Then maybe

Maybe you will let your candidate know that you are supporting in spite of these issues? That is all I have been asking my Obama backing friends. Just tell the campaign that you do not like the baiting stuff, and are voting for Obama not because of in, but in spite of it.
Please do that. It is an easy email to send. If more of the candidate's supporters would take that pro-active approach, we would not still be talking about this.
Thanks for thinking about it.

[bullwinkle428]

80. Another K&R from a straight person that tries to listen...

:thumbsup:

[mondo joe]

86. Valentine's Day K&R for you Ruggerson. It's pretty fucking tired to have these fucktards who never

thought more than 5 minutes about GLTB issues try to tell me who's in my best interest.

[psychmommy]

89. off topic

i have a problem when white gays try to equate their situation w/black peoples struggles. i don't have the same issue with black gays doing it though. in my opinion if a white gay decided to play straight then their issues are gone. but, an african american (gay or straight) will always have the issues. it is not the same. i am in no way negating the struggle of the homosexual in american. i remember what it was like in the 80's w/the aids epidemic and how ugly people were to homosexuals. i realize your struggle but, it is not like mine. mine is not like the struggle of the jew. the jewish struggle is not like that of the native american. but, all of these groups continue to struggle in america. we should each respect each others struggles but-your blues ain't like mine.

[LostinVA]

118. I'm so fucking tired of this garbage on here -- "my human rights are more important than yours"

Tell me, please, how the hell can two men or two woman "pass" as a married couple? And, why should anyone have to "pass"? WTF???? You are aware than many blacks abandoned their pasts and families to "pass" as white, and how horrible that is?

Grow up and learn some empathy.

[psychmommy]

164. it is not that i don't have empathy

my point is that what you go through is not even close to what a black gay goes through. not even close to what black people go through. your civil rights are important and i respect your struggle but, you have no clue what blacks have been through and are still experiencing today. it is not the same.

[mondo joe]

170. And you have no idea what gays go through.

But if you want to get up on your cross, go right ahead.

[psychmommy]

177. i don't need a cross

it is obvious what blacks go through. i know a little about what gays go through. therefore i can respect their struggle. the same isn't returned so i speak my mind. 2 separate struggles, they don't compare. but they both exist. black gays have to deal w/both.

[mondo joe]

178. Then get off it. You know shit about what it is to be gay - you already proved that when

you mistakenly identified "passing" as a good thing.

If being gay is so much easier ask yourself why gay teens are so prone to suicide.

[psychmommy]

186. again you miss my point

it is not the same. because you are white you are still a part of the "majority", gay or not. blacks are the minority and we continue to be oppressed. it is 2 different struggles. i don't negate yours. but, they are not comparable. i never said in my original statement that being gay was easy. but, what you go through is not the same as what i go through.

[mondo joe]

188. Of course they are comparable. They can be compared.

They're not THE SAME. Never said they were.

But if it's so important to you to believe that no one is as persecuted as you, keep on believing it. But don't expect others to play along.

[racaulk]

138. Well, I'm a "white gay."

Sure, I could "play straight." I could go out right now and marry a woman that I don't love and will never be attracted to. I could "force" myself to have sex with her and eventually have children with her (which, incidentally, would absolutely thrill my parents, as I'm an only child). I could live in the shell of a happy, perfect, heterosexual life, at least from the outside looking in.

But would that mean that "the issues are then gone?" HELL FUCKING NO! The issues might be gone to someone like you, or to someone else who might prefer that I'm not gay. The issues might be gone to someone who would rather not address the issues, because it would be easier for them not to do so. But the issues would not be gone.

The result would be that I would have just taken that external homophobia and internalized it. That would be the only difference.

Not to mention that I would have forced myself, my wife, my children, the rest of my family, my friends, my coworkers, and countless others around me to live a lie. What kind of life is that, and how fair is that to me or to anyone else?

It's true that African Americans can't change themselves to avoid being the targets of bigotry, but the same is true for GLBT persons. For you to suggest otherwise truly shows your ignorance.

As to your comment "your blues ain't like mine," on its face, that is true. The struggles of the African American communities and the GLBT community are not exactly the same. But the struggles of those oppressed communities (and many others) come from the same source: bigots in power who try to deny equality and freedom to others and try to justify their bigotry behind the shield of their religious faith.

The struggles aren't the same, but they are similar.

[psychmommy]

163. i understand your point

thank you for acknowledging mine. racism is institutional-you don't get pulled over driving while gay. when you do get pulled over your not removed from car for an automatic search. people aren't clutching their purses when you enter the elevator or pass them on the street. you weren't told that you should apply to the state college because you aren't harvard material. there are bigots that hate you when they realize you are gay. but, they hate me because of the color of my skin.
i do not mean to belittle your struggle, but you have no clue what it is like to be black in america.
the images on tv and the newspaper-you'd think that only black people commit crime. i get followed around the store no matter how i am dressed. read some of the crap that is said here on du. i will be more sensitive to the gay struggle but, please don't compare.

[NMMNG]

196. You want to play "Who has the biggest problems"?

when you do get pulled over your not removed from car for an automatic search. people aren't clutching their purses when you enter the elevator or pass them on the street. you weren't told that you should apply to the state college because you aren't harvard material. there are bigots that hate you when they realize you are gay. but, they hate me because of the color of my skin.
i do not mean to belittle your struggle, but you have no clue what it is like to be black in america.
the images on tv and the newspaper-you'd think that only black people commit crime. i get followed around the store no matter how i am dressed. read some of the crap that is said here on du. i will be more sensitive to the gay struggle but, please don't compare.

Do you sit in church and have the pastor/reverend/priest call you vile names from the pulpit (and hear the congregation murmur in agreement?
Do you have entire "Christian" Websites dedicated to demonizing you and your loved ones in the most horrific ways possible?
Are you routinely likened to pedophiles, murderers, zoophiliacs, necrophiliacs and more by clergy and RRRW hatemongers?
Are you denied your Human and Civil Rights, such as marriage (and all the 1000+ federal benefits that come with it), equal employment opportunities, equal housing opportunities , federal hate-crimes protection and the like?



We could go on all night but I think you'd never be satisfied. Your problems will always be bigger than anybody else's because you just want to see it that way.

[Creideiki]

252. Wait

You're given equal standing in your church? Mine told me that I would be excommunicated if I so much as attempted to take Communion. I was welcome to attend and give them money, but not share in any sacrament. Because of this, a good deal of my family has left that church for a similar one, but I'm left wandering. And have been told in no uncertain terms that I gave up my right to even simple funeral rites. Above and beyond the anti-gay sermons and covert and overt snears toward me.

[NMMNG]

268. Pssst.

I'm an atheist, so I don't actually go to church. :evilgrin:

I was illustrating a point to Ms. "Nobody has it worse than I do". ;-)

[Creideiki]

269. Yeah, I know...

but our lovely Miss Better Blues Than Yours might not realize that this is a regular occurrence.

[NMMNG]

275. She likely does

But thinks that if we'd just "play straight" we'd have nothing to worry about. :eyes:

Some people are quite clueless and hurtful.

[LostinVA]

239. Actually, you do get pulled over (or worse) for driving while gay

My wife used to have a rainbow sticker on her old Jeep. I would not let her drive in certain parts of VA, because the chance of a hate crime against her. How is that any different than DWB?

And it is illegal to discriminate against black people. It happens, but it's illegal. In most places, it's perfectly legal to fire someone for being gay, evict someone for being gay, etc.

[NMMNG]

276. That's her own fault, of course

If she wouldn't cram her lifestyle down people's throats by having that sticker on her Jeep people wouldn't know she was gay. :sarcasm:

[Chovexani]

144. Well I'm glad you're so charitable towards us black GLBTs

How fucking generous of you to allow us to express our suffering, milady.

It takes a massive amount of cluelessness to think that asinine post wasn't "negating the struggle of the homosexual in american". People are STILL ugly to us. You, for instance.

Get your shift key fixed and stop calling us "homosexuals" like we're bacteria in a petri dish.

[psychmommy]

162. no ugliness intended.

not negating your struggle. you have triple struggle-gay, woman, black. your experience and your struggles aren't the same as your white gay sisters and brothers. i didn't realize homosexual was an insult. i didn't mean to come off hateful, but i am entitled my opinion. it is not that white gays can't express their struggles but, don't compare it to mine. i can't change my behavior and fade into the background whenever i want-i will stand out because i am black.

[LostinVA]

241. It's quite obvious what you're trying to do

This imaginary wedge you're trying to create doesn't exist, because most gay DUers get along, even if we disagree sometimes.

And how the hell am I supposed to "fade into the background?" I'm married to another woman.

[mondo joe]

147. Pretty fucking stupid post.

"In my opinion if a white gay decided to play straight then their issues are gone."

You're pretty fucking wrong there.

[psychmommy]

157. my opinion

not asking for your agreement. stating my thoughts. your blues ain't like mine.

[mondo joe]

161. Your opinion is uninformed.

If you think passing for straight for a moment, or a longer period, eliminates gays' problems you are sorely deluded.

[psychmommy]

167. my opinion is mine.

i know that people do it in the work place for example all of the time. they remain single or have a beard so that they can move up the ladder. there's no beard for blackness. it is the first thing that people see. they don't see my straightness or my degrees. so it can eliminate roadblocks that can't be so easily eliminated by blacks. i think that when i hear white gays speak of the civil rights movement for blacks it sounds like it is over for us. like that is how it used to be. but if that is how you think then you are the deluded one my friend.

[mondo joe]

168. You keep thinking "passing" is a positive. It's not. It's a different problem.

All civil rights inequities are a problem as well.

[psychmommy]

182. you miss my point

you may pass if you choose, that is your choice. we don't have that choice. the hate you receive when people realize you're gay is automatic when they see me. i can't pass. nor would i. no one should have their rights stepped on i agree. but, you can't equate your civil rights struggle with ours. they are not equal. they both exist. they both are a problem but, they are not the same.

[mondo joe]

184. No. I understood - but you still don't. "Passing" - whether you want to or not - is a BAD thing.

The different struggles are, obviously, different.

But one is not greater than the other.

[psychmommy]

198. thank you

that is my issue. they are not comparable and it irks me when white gays speak as if they are. my blues ain't like yours. regardless of sexual orientation you are still a part of the "majority". you can still access whatever doors that opens. i cannot because i am part of the minority in this country. black gays have a double hit.

[mondo joe]

199. You're still so wrong. I'll leave you with the words of Coretta Scott King to think about.

"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."

[NMMNG]

205. There is also Bayard Rustin

"The barometer of where one is on human rights questions is no longer the black community, it's the gay community. Because it is the community which is most easily mistreated."

[Sapphocrat]

207. Jinx! LOL n/t

[Sapphocrat]

206. I love that quote.

Here's another one:

"The barometer of where one is on human rights questions is no longer the black community, it's the gay community. Because it is the community which is most easily mistreated."

-- Bayard Rustin (1912-1987), MLK's right-hand man and '63 March on Washington organizer

[psychmommy]

216. i don't seek to dehumanize you

a phobia is a fear. i don't fear you. in the converse, you as the "majority" have sought to dehumanize me. i respect coretta but, alot of folks did not jump on her bandwagon because we consider it 2 separate issues. one not comparable to the other.

[mondo joe]

218. Enough of your homophobia and hate. NT

[LostinVA]

243. So you think it's perfectly fine for white gays to be miserable and "pass?"

Not to mention, lots of gay people can't pass as straight. You convienently gloss over that.

[NMMNG]

152. Pardon me?

in my opinion if a white gay decided to play straight then their issues are gone.

Do you even realize how hideously false, hateful and offensive that statement was?

[psychmommy]

156. NO

IT IS MY OPINION. NO HATE INTENDED. JUST MY OPINION.

[NMMNG]

160. I see

Just so you know.

1. Typing in all caps is considered yelling. It's not very polite and puts people off.
2. Though you may not have intended any hate, the opinion you expressed was very hateful. Gay/lesbian people cannot turn off their sexual orientation and "live as straight" no matter what you may believe. To do so would be to deny everything they are and cause great emotional/psychological/spiritual harm. Nor would all of their problems "magically disappear". They'd still be gay/lesbian and the bigotry towards them would still exist. Could you imagine how you'd feel if someone told you you should wear special makeup to make you appear white and therefore all of your problems would magically disappear?

Please stop blaming LGBT people for the hatred others heap upon them.

[psychmommy]

165. not blaming the victim

sometimes i don't pay attention to the caps thing i apologize. when people see me, they see black. all of the stereotypes kick in. they don't necessarily see gay the first thing they see you. make up is just now starting to be made for black women. so yeah for decades advertisers have been telling me what is beauty. black women going blonde. that is part of the brain washing. i don't blame gay people for other people's bigotry. i just ask that you respect that what you go through isn't the same. your struggle is real and it is deep too because of the biblical stuff but it is not the same.

[NMMNG]

169. Who is saying it's the same? I never did.

I'm just calling you on your bigoted BS assumption that we can "play it straight" and our problems will magically disappear. That's one of the biggest lies around. It preys upon the assumption that there is some mythical "straight" look/behavior that is acceptable, that any behavior or look considered gay is unacceptable and undesirable (and therefore should be avoided). People who are then gay or just suspected of being gay (even if they aren't) because of how they look/act are harmed because of that assumption.

Homophobia and the resultant harm will not just disappear if we ignore it or "act straight". Our lack of and need for equal rights will not just disappear if we "act straight". And we will never experience the love we need and deserve if we "act straight". Is that what you think we deserve?


Your blues ain't the same as mine. Don't belittle the hell LGBTs go through as if you have the first clue what it's like to experience it You obviously don't know shit about it.

[psychmommy]

180. i have my own hell

i don't belittle what you go through. we all look through our own prism and see the world that way. the point is that you can act straight whenever you choose to. you may never choose to and that is your choice. black people don't have that choice. that is not an option. people will always perceive our blackness first, with all of the stereotypes and hatred that go along with it. i am not invalidating what you go through. but, when i walk in the store-i get followed. they don't follow you because you're gay. they don't pull over your car because you're gay. what we go through is different. what black gays go through is compounded, they are black and gay. 2 different struggles-there is no comparison.

[mondo joe]

181. Firstly, not all gays can "pass". Secondly, it's a terrible burden - not a blessing. It results

in more gay people living in isolation and pain.

There are different challenges, but you're the one out to try to win the prize for the most persecuted. But you don't understand what you're talking about.

[NMMNG]

185. The day you will understand

Is the day you accept that my lesbian identity is equivalent to your black identity. I cannot "act straight" any more than you can "act white". Being lesbian is not just what I do with my genitals. It is not a behavior. It is who and what I am.


If you cannot accept that then you obviously have an issue with LGBTs.

[psychmommy]

192. i have no issue w/gays

but it is not equivalent. you are attracted to women. i may not necessarily know that when i see you. but, you know i am black when you see me. why is it so hard for you to accept the black struggle. you must have issues with blacks.

[mondo joe]

195. If you think gay people are not identified, you need to explain all the gay bashing

from school age kids well into adulthood.

You are really being so fucking stupid, I wish you could see it yourself.

Try to take a minute to think of what is LOST by people who can pass. Take a minutes to think about the number of GLBT kids who try to commit suicide.

[psychmommy]

201. this is so funny

i have attacked no one. but, i have been called names. i acknowledge that gays don't have it easy.
my problem is that white gays don't acknowledge the plight of blacks in this country and try to equate it and you can't. our civil rights struggle is daily. it is not in the past. i am not saying that you guys don't struggle but they are not comparable.

[mondo joe]

202. You're full of shit.

"white gays don't acknowledge the plight of blacks in this country"

Bullshit.

"and try to equate it and you can't. our civil rights struggle is daily."

More bullshit.

Have fun up on your cross.

[Jamastiene]

255. Talk about a broad brush.

Don't you just love how this person claims all white gay people are racist despite the fact that they cannot possibly know every white gay person in this country? I alerted them for that one. I call bullshit too. I urge you and others who see it to alert it as well. That post is against the rules. Maybe if enough of us keep trying, some of this homophobic and racist tripe will start to get deleted.

[Jamastiene]

254. I'm surprised you can pick that brush up at all. It must be awfully heavy

as fucking broad as it is.

"my problem is that white gays don't acknowledge the plight of blacks in this country and try to equate it and you can't."

First off, you need to come down off your cross and admit that every minority in this country has it hard. Next, you need to stop and think about the divisiveness of your argument. You claim to be gay, but you have no respect for GLBT people if you are so willing to broadbrush us all as racists.

Oh, wait a minute, you only broad brushed white gays. You sure seem to hate all gay white people. As if espousing one form of bigotry at a time isn't bad enough, you had to go and make a Combo Bigotry. What next, a Super Size Combo Bigotry. Maybe, it is you who is the racist. Racism is not limited to one race, you know? Maybe it wouldn't hurt you to make an educational visit to the Southern Poverty Law Center's Tolerance.org site to learn just how divisive and self serving your attitude is.

[Sapphocrat]

197. You would know *I* am gay from one look.

And you are SO out of line trying to attack another DUer with that lame "you must have issues with blacks" bullshit, just because you know you're in the wrong, and you have no graceful way out.

Why don't you just admit you think gay people don't deserve all the rights and legal protections you -- as a straight woman -- already have?

Right after you apologize to BuffyTheFundySlayer for your baseless, crude attempt to smear her character.

[psychmommy]

214. but it is ok to attack me

part of the problem in america is that we can't even have these convo's without people attacking each other. we have to speak openly about race and sexual orientation without jumping all over each other. i said to buffy exactly what she said to me. there appears to be no problem with smearing my character. i am entitled to my opinion. it opened up discussion. can we have it without the nastiness? can we acknowledge our differences without screaming each other down.

[mondo joe]

215. You're not attacked. Your homophobia is pointed out.

If you don't like it, ditch the homophobia.

[LostinVA]

244. Oh come on, Sapph -- you know we could just girl it up and pass

It'd be easy as pie. It'd probably make us happier, too.

:eyes:

[NMMNG]

200. I accept the black struggle just fine and have no issues with blacks

But you seem to be unable to accept the LGBT struggle because you think we could avoid it by "pretending not to be gay". You completely dismiss who and what we are by defining us solely by a function of our genitals.

You want me to what--live either alone or with a man so I can pretend I'm straight? Never experience love or affection? Live my life as a complete lie? Who the hell do you think you are? I am astounded and sickened at your utter audacity.

[psychmommy]

204. you miss my point

the point is that gay or not you are still are part of the "majority" in this country-with whatever rights and privileges that comes with. i will always be part of the minority-with all of the oppression that comes with it. i don't care if you choose to pass or not. you can we can't. that is the issue. you don't get pulled over driving while gay. you don't get followed in the store because you're gay. i don't care who you love or who you live with. talk to some black people and really listen to what they go through. not comparable.

[mondo joe]

208. What good is being part of the majority when you're 13 and living on the streets because

you're gay?

Or when you're 12 and looking for a way to kill yourself because you're gay?

Or when your partner is in the hospital dying but you can't see him because you're a gay couple?

How about when you're fired because you're gay? Or denied housing?

[psychmommy]

227. i wouldn't know.

i will never be part of the majority. i respect that gays don't have it easy. i acknowledge that gay people have their own struggle. it appears to me that my struggle doesn't matter to you guys. because i am straight life is easy. perhaps it is for white straight people.

[mondo joe]

228. You ARE the majority. You have the legal rights I don't have. Get over your straight privelege.

[NMMNG]

209. I am a lesbian atheist

I'm hardly part of the majority in this country. Or, as someone so kindly pointed out here on DU the other night, "Gays aren't exactly representative of America".


Stop playing the my problems are worse than yours game. You don't seem to understand a thing except your own experience.

Here's a little http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwji7g_VK0U">video that shows how "easy" some people who were LGBT, LGBT friendly, or merely suspected of being LGBT have had it here in America.

[psychmommy]

225. i don't negate your struggle

yours ain't like mine. they are not comparable. you don't seem to understand beyond your experience. i am here to discuss-not attack or belittle. thanks for the vid, i'll watch in the am.

[NMMNG]

213. I get your point just fine

I haven't spent the last several decades in a vacuum. You just choose not to get mine. Being gay is not a choice. Passing is not a choice. And I am through with the "your troubles are worse than mine" game because you choose not to see what you don't want to see.

[psychmommy]

221. you are entitled to your opinion

i am entitled to mine. your blues ain't like mine. you have yours-i have mine and they are not comparable.

[mondo joe]

222. You're entitled to your homophobic opinion, with your full legal rights.

No one said you weren't.

[Sapphocrat]

217. No, YOU are the MAJORITY.

YOU have full EQUAL RIGHTS.

YOU get fired because you're black, YOU have the full weight of the law behind you. I do not.

YOU get evicted because you're black, YOU have the full weight of the law behind you. I do not.

YOU get mistreated because you're black, YOU can sue for discrimination. I cannot.

YOU can get married. I cannot.

YOU never have to worry about anyone taking your children away because being black makes you "an unfit parent."

YOU have ALL the rights I do NOT.

YOU are STRAIGHT.

YOU are the MAJORITY.

[psychmommy]

219. you are entitled to your opinion

i disagree. you have your struggle and i have mine. they are not comparable.

[mondo joe]

220. You have full legal equality. I don't. It's not comparable. NT

[Sapphocrat]

224. Yeah, I know.

My struggle isn't as important as yours.

And if Matthew Shepard had just kept his homosexuality to himself, nobody would have tied him to a fence and beaten him to death. Guess he was asking for it, since all he had to do with "act straight." :sarcasm:

It does not surprise me that you did not address a single thing I said above directly. You know I'm right, and you can't bring yourself to admit it.

You whine about "respect" when you have ZERO respect for every gay person who has tried to reach you in this thread. ZERO.

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. I am done with you.

[LostinVA]

246. That is not an opinion -- that is a LEGAL FACT

[Starbucks Anarchist]

289. If you keep digging, you'll end up under a bridge.

[LostinVA]

245. As a black straight woman, you have all the legal rights and protections as a white straight woman

Gay people do not have those same rights.

I'm not saying there's no racism, but you're just being willfully ignorant to pretend you don't have the same legal rights.

[Lex]

203. are you kicked out of your own family for being black, or given no support

by your parents and siblings in your relationships because you are black? Or whispered about or ridiculed by your family because you are black?

Does your church tell you that God hates you because you are black?

Are you told you can't get married because you are black?

Not adopt kids?

[psychmommy]

210. no and neither were any of my gay relatives.

no my church doesn't teach me that God hates anyone. i am not negating your struggle but, yours ain't like mine. is not comparable to mine. black gays have both of the struggles. do you understand. what you say convinces me that you do not respect my struggle as a black person. that you are a part of the institutional racism that i deal with daily.

[mondo joe]

211. But those things happen to gay people every day. You have zero clue what gay people live with.

YOU are a part of the homophobia we deal with.

[Solon]

253. Well, your opinion is hateful...just an FYI. n/t

[noamnety]

263. This would be a good time for you to be quiet and listen

because nobody is arguing whether or not that is your opinion. They are telling you that your opinion was formed from a place of ignorance.

Yes, one can pass as straight. My cousin passed as straight. And when I say "passed" - I mean that literally. Only he and his mother knew he was gay and dying of AIDS. He made her promise not to tell his step-father. And so she did not have the support of her husband as she watched her son die over the course of a few years.

Oppression of each group is unique, and it is the same. If you are black, you do not have to shamefully hide that from your parents and family. You do not have to decide if you will come out to them, you do not have to worry about whether your own parents will disown you if they find out you are black. You are born into a support system that understands what that is.

So this idea that passing as straight is a blessing, you should understand that invisible identities are a blessing and a curse, they can be shut off, yes, and I wish sometimes I could shut off being female so I can experience what it's like to be out for a walk without being female, so I do understand what you are saying there. I've entered more or less into invisible zone now (over 40), but yes, there was a time where I would get harassed not even walking down the street, but also driving while female. I get that.

But when your identity is hidden, it also means you have to go through the decision/filter process continually to make sure you don't use the wrong pronoun or bring a date to an office party or put a photo of your partner on your desk, or walk in public together so you don't risk getting beaten up or fired or harassed. Lining a double life like a cia agent, even around your family, is not a blessing. So that's maybe the trade off, where you can't turn off blackness in public, you can at least return to the family that raised you and know you will be accepted for who you are (as much as any family does that).

So. Every minority's oppression is unique, but also it is the same because they all grow from one system, which is why we ought to be learning from each group and listening to them, if we want to work together to dismantle that system. It's why gay people can't ignore women's rights, and why women can't ignore gay rights, and why the lot of us can't ignore the struggles of POC.

People are trying to tell you about their experiences of being gay, in a thread about being gay, and you've come into it with your hands over your ears yelling that YOUR EXPERIENCES ARE UNIQUE AND ARE NOT BEING RESPECTED.

Respect these people enough to listen to them in a discussion they have created about their issues.

[racaulk]

273. I really wish I could recommend this reply.

You have summed up perfectly what so many of us are angered, hurt, and offended by the "you can pass if you want to" argument, and you did so in a very respectful manner. Thank you, lwfern!

:pals:

[Sapphocrat]

166. !!!

"in my opinion if a white gay decided to play straight then their issues are gone."

How would you like it if I told you all your issues would be gone if only you would bleach your skin?

[mondo joe]

179. Thoughtless people often mistake "passing" as a benefit rather than another problem,

resulting in more isolation and pain.

Of course they also reveal their thoughtlessness by assuming we can actually pass.

[Sapphocrat]

191. If we wanted to pass in the first place, of course.

I believe I understand the origin of such thinking: It is the inability (or unwillingness) to accept the fact that our gayness is as integral to our very identity as anyone's skin color or ethnicity -- not to mention the culture that has evolved from it (being African-American, or Italian-American, or gay-American) -- is to them.

I think if you could really force the truth out of someone who thinks that way, they'd have to admit that they truly believe that being gay is a choice.

And then, of course, there's always the idea that who you are equates with what you do.

"Of course our church welcomes homosexuals! As long as you're celibate, that is..."

[Jamastiene]

172. What fucking planet are you from?

I'll tell you what. Pretend to be gay for a week. Then see if pretending just makes all the nasty comments, possible beatings/shootings, and bashing go away. It never goes away. It's not the same thing to be black as it is to be gay, but trust me, you can't just turn it off if you are gay. A person is who they are and there is no turning it off. Something about your post just screams troll to me. I call 'em like I see 'em. Anytime someone comes in talking about "homosexual" this and "homosexual" that and basically says we have no struggle, I think FReeper. You need to get with the program.

[Lex]

190. Do you suggest that Jews should "decide to" pass as Gentile?

Bingo, their "issues" are gone, then, right?


How freakin' clueless and offensive can one post get.

[mondo joe]

193. I wonder if people who think we're better off because we can "pass" think Anne Frank was lucky

because she could hide in an attic.

It's a majorly fucked up thing.

[Bluebear]

230. Thanks for your solidarity with all of us "white gays"

:puke:

[NMMNG]

238. Nobody knows the trouble she's seen

Nobody knows but Jesus.

Get back in your closet now, you hear?

[LostinVA]

247. Shut up, Buffy

Your blues ain't mine.

[Bluebear]

261. Lordy, Lordy. nt

[Midlodemocrat]

249. I think you left off a letter in your user name.

Shouldn't it be psychomommy? You give those of us who are actually psych professionals a bad rap.

And, your posts is homophobic.

[LostinVA]

260. Shut up, Midlo

Why don't you just go and pass as a straight white woman? Oh, wait you are a straight white woman. Damn. You're the enemy, and I never knew it.

[Ayesha]

262. Passing is a choice for you too

You could get up every day and cover yourself in white make-up. Straighten your hair (or wear a wig) etc. You could pass, at least from a distance. So why not decide to do so?

I'm sure you're extremely offended by what I just said. To disguise yourself as white would be physically uncomfortable and emotionally excruciating. You would have to live a lie and completely hide your true self. That's exactly what you're suggesting that gay people do, and it's just as offensive to us.

[rasputin1952]

93. Call me Old Fashioned, but no one should be "telling" anyone...

how to vote. People should be putting their ideas out there, and if they are more valid than others, it might sway someone's vote.

No person, no group, no entity at all, should be "telling" any other person, group or entity how to vote. Not only is it rude, it is counterproductive.

I only ask that people vote for what they see as best for the country...:D

And it isn't McCain...:evilgrin:

[Clintonista2]

97. K&R!

[Neecy]

98. Here's another suggestion....

Gay people shouldn't tell other gay people who to support. The 50 daily McClurkin threads and the attendant garment rending is getting a little tiresome. There are pros and cons for each candidate when it comes to our issues and we should respect that we all come to our own decisions and conclusions.

[Mister Ed]

100. K&R.

Listening here...

[Baconfoot]

101. Don't excuse peoples ignorance.They should know e.g.the DM affair's import without being told by you

Straight people should have been, and I believe were, posting about that as soon as it happened.
And the reason is that we can have a dialog without having a shared experience because we share our experiences with each other.

[PetraPooh]

104. On the other hand, I feel perfectly agreeable to telling poor Repubs

why they should reconsider their choices. Why shouldn't straight people point out things that gays may not seem to know or grasp; just as we do (or at least I do) with repubs who make less that $50K, that don't see that their party is forcing them into deeper poverty while enriching the rich? I am not telling anyone who to vote for and I haven't participated in posting reasons one way or another. I am nonetheless questioning the reasonability of your OP request.

[Apollo11]

110. Here on DU, there is no way of knowing who is straight and who is not.

Just sayin' :eyes:

[Occam Bandage]

121. I can't count the number of times I've gotten into the McClurkin debate, only to be told

that I, as a straight person, obviously have no idea what I'm talking about. Because, you know, if you don't buy the manufactured outrage there's *no way* you can be LGBT.

[Prism]

134. It is silly

Most of my responses to these threads tend to begin and end with self-identification as a gay male. Otherwise I risk an "I'm gay, you're not, STFU!" response, which is endemic to the entire "argument" being made about this stuff.

Ah well. At least I've not gotten "If you don't agree with me, it's because you're self-loathing" - even though I'm sure that's coming down the pipe. I've already seen that whiffle bat of gay discourse being used to smack some of our fellow gays around.

It's tragic.

[Jamastiene]

176. If you are straight, you are NOT GLBT, by definition.

You need to walk a mile in someone's shoes before you claim to know anything about an issue.

[Jersey Devil]

112. Are you saying straight people have no right to have opinions on gay issues?

I'm having trouble understanding your post. No matter what anyone tells you about who you should vote for you have your own mind and should be able to accept or reject what others may believe. What is the threat if straight people tell you who to vote for? Wouldn't stifling straight expressions of their opinions be a limitation of free expression and is that what gays would really want?

If gays are ever to achieve equal rights you need straight people to understand and help. I think most straight people do exactly what you are suggesting - keep relatively quiet and listen so that they can better understand the issues and problems you face. At least that is what I try to do.

But to suggest that straight people have no business forming or expressing opinions on gay political issues because they haven't walked your walk is absurd.

[stevenleser]

114. That was my take too...

and I find it completely unacceptable.

[LostinVA]

119. Straight people have no right to tell GLBT people certain things

ie their opinions are wrong, etc. on some issues. Just like I would NEVER tell a black person to "get over" certain things, and why I get pissed if a man tells me "Oh lighten up, I called her 'bitch' as a joke." Fuck that. I've had this garbage thrown at me my whole entire adult life.

[Occam Bandage]

122. If you think Obama is a homophobe, your opinion is wrong. If you think HRC

has better policies for LGBT people, your opinion is wrong. If you think anyone who is not a member of the netroots gives a shit about McClurkin, your opinion is wrong. Saying that is not at all the same as saying that your opinion to support Hillary is wrong, or that your opinion that Hillary is a better candidate is wrong, or that your personal feelings on McClurkin are wrong. It would be nice if you could distinguish between what the OP is whining about and what is actually happening.

Oh, and I'm not straight, so I'm allowed to tell you that.

[stevenleser]

123. That is not what the OP said...

... I would never tell you to 'get over' something related to your class/gender/orientation/race. I might say that candidate A did something wrong here but did do B and C which are good.

But even if some ignoramuses choose to say 'Get over it'. What is the remedy? Should they be censored? Arent there enough decent people here to respond to them and tell them that their response is crass (as in fact I find the OP opinion here crass). Do we need someone to tell other people not to talk to them about issues?

[Jersey Devil]

124. How can an "opinion" be "wrong"?

If someone's conclusion is "wrong", don't you think it would be a much better approach to try to convince them that the facts upon which they are basing their conclusions are wrong and to try to set them straight (no pun intended) on the facts rather than to tell them to shut up and mind their own business as you are suggesting? Do you want straight people to understand gay issues or do you just want to piss them off because you resent the way you've been treated?

[LostinVA]

130. Of course an opinion can be wrong

[NMMNG]

150. You have every right to your opinions

You have every right to express them.

What we're tired of is people believing they know better than us what is good/right for us because they read something on a Website, heard it in a speech, have a LGBT friend/neighbor/relative, have done some "grassroots work for the LGBT community" or whatever. As actual LGBT people we are the ones best equipped to decide what is good and right for ourselves. Other people do not get to make those decisions for us.

I would think that you would appreciate the same courtesy for yourself.

[Occam Bandage]

117. Dude, don't bogart that cross.

:nopity:

Nobody is telling you what to feel. This is a political discussion board. If you don't like being disagreed with, then stop hiding behind your orientation and defend your decision. Straight people are indeed allowed to defend their candidate from spurious charges, just as gay people are.

[stevenleser]

120. Thank you and the other folks getting involved and saying this...

the premise in the OP is terrible and needs to be challenged.

[theboss]

125. I tell everyone who to vote for

Pretty much because I think I'm smarter than everyone I meet.

Don't feel special.

[Irishonly]

127. Great Post

[xchrom]

128. recommend -- i find some of the responses to this thread both fascinating and horrifying.

it always seems beyond the grasp of people to realize the history and depth of discrimination against lgbtq folk -- it has been a discrimination in just about every society and every culture through a very, very long time.

it's very hard to explain to straights that the process of realizing -- identifying that we are lgbtq people ISOLATES us from our families -- if we come out -- we come out alone.

we don't come out into a family or group immediately -- we come out standing all by ourselves -- and we are miraculously fortunate that today we can more easily find others who are like us.

when abuse or killings or discrimination happens to us -- it happens to us and we are ALONE.

no straight person can understand that -- no racial minority group -- can understand what that is.

it's how -- even here at DU people can so easily play down the concerns or consider silly the concerns of lgbtq people -- if you are straight, no matter your colour -- you have the benefit of belonging -- of having something to fall back on the lgbtq people are still deprived of.

there others here more eloquent than i am who can explain this better than i can -- and i hope they do --

[stevenleser]

131. No one is playing that down. You are addressing something completely non related to the OP.

The OP says shut up and do not try to engage us on debates on who the best candidate is. That is with what I have an issue.

[xchrom]

171. oh i've seen what you have a fuckin issue with

and it's pretty fuckin ugly.

[stevenleser]

272. So why dont you explain it to me, because I have no idea what you are talking about...

these people do get what I am saying, by the way. Perhaps you should read THEIR posts:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4595601&mesg_id=4603388

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4595601&mesg_id=4601708

[crawfish]

132. Don't tell me who I can and can't tell whom to vote for this election!

Wait...what?

[awnobles]

137. Us and Them

Creating sub-groups of citizens is a time honoured method of supression. Don't play into the divide and conquer Republican technique of manipulation. Love everybody.

[racaulk]

139. I totally agree, and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Dark]

233. Welcome to DU!

And I must say, personally, I love my straight friends. But there are a couple of them who seem to think they know more about being gay than I do.

And that really irks me. Please, I love y'all, but don't pretend you know what it's like to be gay any more than I'd pretend to know what it's like to be straight.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

141. k & r

[IronLionZion]

142. No one should be telling anyone who to support , or who to oppose.

yet there is plenty of that going on here. The negative voices are louder and more numerous.

Yes, no one should tell YOU what to think. But I'm always interested in listening to your experiences or letting me know why you support a particular candidate without bashing the other one (but not why I should feel the same way). I've got to hand it to you, our GLBT friends don't tell us straights what to think or feel.

Excellent post. Thank you for not bashing anyone specifically.

[apocalypsehow]

143. All of which boils down to: "if you disagree with me, you don't have a right to express an opinion"

No thanks. :thumbsdown:

[AtomicKitten]

146. I'm still trying to figure out why you think anyone cares how you vote.

[ruggerson]

153. Hit a little close to home, eh?

[AtomicKitten]

159. Not at all. I didn't read it because I respect you but don't agree with you on this issue.

You are a person to me. An entity. I like you. But we just don't see eye to eye on this. I get the basic premise but I think the reaction at this late date is bordering on hysterical and entirely misses the point you were trying to make. And that I think is raising the stock of the GLBT community in America. What transpired, what you are kvetching over still, did not rise to the level you are treating this. It was isolated and the attempted negotiation rebuffed. So, there it is.

I just wondered why you, why anybody feels another person needs to persuade them how to vote. That's couch potato politics. If this issue continues to be a malignancy in your life, you know the remedy. If you truly believe the LGBT community will get a better shake with Clinton than Obama, you know the remedy.

I just don't get why you treat your vote as a manipulative tool as opposed to an amazing opportunity to decide the big picture future of the planet.

I would encourage you to take a deep breath and reflect, and I'll leave what you do in the voting booth up to you. I have every confidence you will vote the way you want to vote, and I wouldn't want it any other way.

[Jamastiene]

189. You say you disagree but you didn't even read it?

:wtf:

[AtomicKitten]

229. No, I wondered why he thought others cared how he votes

which is the original premise in the title of this piece ... what he and I disagree on is longstanding and the fuel for the sustained outrage - the McClurkin incident.

In fact, I wonder why anyone here thinks how they vote matters to anyone else. We are not a herd, although some seem to have that inclination.

[ruggerson]

256. The OP isn't about McClurkin

or even Obama. It's about some straight people presuming to lecture gay people about issues that many gay people, by necessity, know infinitely more about than those lecturing them do.

[Jamastiene]

187. That's whole entire point.

The GLBT community are reaching a point where we are tired of being told to vote for people who claim to represent our interests and sell us down the road at every opportunity. Real progressives are getting ready to jump ship. The GLBT community are not the only ones who have had it.

[L0oniX]

148. I'm Dutch so don't tell me who to vote for.

:sarcasm:

[Political Heretic]

154. Anymore than gay people should be telling straight people?

:shrug:

[mondo joe]

155. IMO, more accurately: Straight people have no business lecturing GLBT people on which candidate they

should support based on GLBT issues.

A lot of people who never gave a shit about GLBT issues are coming out of the cracks on GD:P to lecture us on our own issues.

[Seabiscuit]

280. Who are these people? Granted there has been a lot of ugliness in here this winter,

and more than a few tombstoned freepers have been responsible for stirring up some of the shit, but I am somewhat shocked that there are actually straight people on DU lecturing GLBT people on which candidate they should support. That's disgusting. Perhaps I don't see it because the nastiness here this winter has caused me to put over 200 assholes on "ignore".

[Hill_YesWeWill]

158. I uh agree, I can't believe this is actually a problem, I must have

missed those threads!

Well, those posters are not real democrats, I mean, even if they're completely convinced they are, they aren't.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

212. why should you be any different?

People are telling women, minorities, blue collar workers, and yes even gays whom they should vote for..

Its called politics and if you hate it that much maybe you should not be in the primaries forum.
..

[LostinVA]

248. Somebody get your magic underwear in a bunch?

[CreekDog]

223. Anybody can tell anybody anything. Nobody has to do what they are told.

That's the deal in America. :pals:

[ErnestoG]

234. This election is about more than Gay vs Straight.

It's about bigger issues. Get over yourselves and get some perspective.

[hulklogan]

284. Get over yourselves, you silly gays

Being second-class citizens in your own country is great! All you need is some perspective, and you'll enjoy paying more taxes than married straights, being shot in the head at school, and having to provide fifteen different documents to prove that you have been committed to your wife or husband (aka domestic partner) for fifteen years.

:silly: :sarcasm:

[NMMNG]

290. But if you'd just crawl back in your closet where you belong,

and stop acting gay, your problems would magically disappear. Poof!

Do you ever feel like you're in a really bad episode of The Twilight Zone?

[hulklogan]

291. It's like "The Twilight Zone" mixed with "Groundhog Day"

I find myself hearing the same outlandish arguments from the same people day after day after day.

Act straight and you won't have problems
Nobody cares about GLBT people anyway
You're going to lose us the election
Wait until after the election or until after we deal with other more important issues like X, Y, and Z
Anyone who is tired of being a second-class citizen should just shut up and be glad they don't live in Iran
You need to reach out to the people who want to shoot you in the head at school
Separate but Equal is the same as full equality

It's the militant straight mantra!

[NMMNG]

292. You know, you're right

I wonder if there's some special handbook they get all of those trite arguments from--sort of like an apologetics for straight supremacists.

[TheWraith]

235. Actually, in completely misrepresenting the history of DOMA, I have to wonder

What makes you think you're qualified to tell everybody else who to vote for, straight people included, as you do repeatedly and with enthusiasm

[Skittles]

236. you want I should kick some straight ass, ruggerson?

you know I'd do it for y'all, my sweets

[ruggerson]

257. I think we got it under control, skittles

but if you need the favor returned, just give a shout.

[NMMatt]

237. Vote for whomever you want, but have the courtesy to return the favor...

i.e. by quit claiming that straight people are somehow insufficiently concerned about gays if they vote for one of two nearly identical candidates on the issues.

[LordshipLadyship]

240. As a straight person..

The only thing I feel justified in saying to gays is Which person running has enough intelligence to allow two adults who love one another and wish to commit to one another with all the rights inherit that straights now enjoy, thereby standing up for them to marry? Which person is free to practice their own faith but will not force their belief or morality on other human beings? Which person understands that you don't need a faith or a church or a law to treat another person in a common sense fashion, that being decent?

In other words I'd speak to you and other gays, lesbians and transgenders the same way I'd advise someone who happened to be straight. Vote with your head, your conscience. Any other human being. Don't give in an inch.

Now I will most happily shut up (smile) (although in my case I've had the pleasure to know some lesbians and gays and have seen in a small way what their lives are like in this world full of morons so I know the hell that it can be to be "different"

Take care and thanks for what you said.

[Thepricebreaker]

242. Why should anyone "tell you" - if you don't make up your own mind - you shouldnt be voting. n/t

[Kahuna]

251. I agree. That's why I don't.

;)

[ErnestoG]

266. You wont get far with "shut up and listen".

Democrats are about dialogue. Save the shut up talk for your friends in the GOP.

[stevenleser]

267. Yes, that really set me off.

"Shut up and listen" has no place on a Democratic forum.

[Creideiki]

271. Then how about asking questions honestly and listening?

Rather than telling GLBT types that don't agree with you that our concerns aren't warranted or even better that we shouldn't be concerned about our rights because we can always "choose" something different.

[ErnestoG]

279. How about seeing this election as more than just GLBT issues?

Because that's what it is. There is much MUCH more at stake here

[hulklogan]

282. All issues are GLBT issues. n./t

[ErnestoG]

283. GLBT are Americans. We are Americans. We have MANY issues to tackle

And they don't all revolve around GLBT. Sorry.

[hulklogan]

286. Are you GLBT?

Didn't think so.

[Creideiki]

294. Please, then, vote in your own self-interest

I'll do the same.

[ruggerson]

287. You're making the erroneous assumption

that if gay people discuss gay issues in the context of a national presidential campaign, that must be the only issues they are concerned about. Gays are not monolithic. Some decide for whom to vote based on solely gay related concerns, some do not. It's disturbing that you think that all march in lockstep. Do you vote based solely on the candidate's positions on angry little children?

[Seabiscuit]

274. Is "DODT" DUese for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"? And if that's the case,

what does "DOMA" stand for?

Sorry, but I abhore such acronyms.

[stevenleser]

277. DOMA = Defense of Marriage Amendment

Yes, DADT = Don't ask, Don't Tell, and the policy actually is supposed to call for "Dont Investigate" but that isnt part of the acronym and it isnt followed anyway, so...

[Seabiscuit]

278. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :O)

[Creideiki]

293. Actually...

Defense of Marriage Act.

There's no amendment (federal, at least), yet.

[tekisui]

281. Right on the mark!

Thanks for posting. It is similar to men trying to control women through abortion laws. I don't have a uterus, I don't get a say. I am not gay, I have no place to say.