Winning at any cost is noting poll results that show a majority of a voting bloc are homophobes...

[IndianaJones]

and subsequently putting a man on stage to appeal to that bigotry.

See this poll (Sep '07)

http://www.winthrop.edu/news/releases/winthropetvseptpoll.htm

See this man on stage the next month (despite outcry from an oppressed minority group):

[Occam Bandage]

1. Nobody in SC--or anywhere in the non-Internet world--actually gave a shit about McClurkin,

any more than they gave a shit about any one of the other gospel singers who put on a pro-Obama concert.

[UALRBSofL]

5. Actually GLBT's are very informed

And we do question people in the spotlight that take issue with us and call us names. No offense to Obama but it's an issue to us.

[Occam Bandage]

9. Indeed we are. And it isn't an issue in the real-world LGBT community.

[Ediacara]

12. I don't know what "real-world LGBT community" you know about...

but everyone I know knows about this.

[Occam Bandage]

14. "Everyone I know" is perhaps one of the worst arguments for anything, given the self-selection

of social networks. I could say, truthfully, that I know far more LGBT who are voting for Obama over Clinton--but that's meaningless.

[Ediacara]

17. I'm afraid you invoked "people you know" first

by claiming that "real world" gays are ignorant of what went on. I can only assume you know this via "people you know" since a) no polling exists on this and b) any polling that would exist would be in the realm of push-polling.

So ya, pot meet kettle.

[Occam Bandage]

19. Er, actually, no. I'm referring to:

1. The large number of LGBT papers and magazines I read.
2. The non-coverage the concert got in South Carolina (even the "bigot" side didn't care)
3. The opinion polling which has been done, in which both Clinton and Obama are seen as generally favorable on gay issues, in which LGBT voters are overwhelmingly voting on non-LGBT issues, in which Clinton's advantage comes solely from her longer record, and in which opposition is primarily attributed to lack of support for gay marriage.
4. The lack of mainstream media coverage of the affair.

[Ediacara]

23. Move the goalposts much?

You claimed gays didn't care, not gay magazines. All of your other points are completely irrelevant to the question at hand. So unless you have polling specifically addressing gays, Obama, and Donnie McClurkin, you're invoking "people you know" as the basis for the argument.

[Not Me]

16. Whose real world are you living in.

I am still waiting for an apology from Obama.
Not an explanation. An apology...as in, I am sorry, I was wrong.

[avrdream]

38. You'll be waiting a LONG time for that apology.

He knew he sold us out when he said "we got what we wanted" out of the anti-gay Gospel tour.

Republican tactics again - excite the homophobes to come out and vote against the perceived pro-gay candidate. It is going to get used against Obama in the GE if he is the nominee. This will become a John Kerry flip-flop: BO says one thing but does another in his support for the GLBT community.

[Ediacara]

6. So that means it doesn't matter that he employs bigots as spokesmen?

I'm really trying hard to find how this makes Obama a-ok.

[QC]

15. Whatever he does is OK, by definition. n/t

[Independent-Voter]

7. This it true.

Very,very few folks had heard or cared about that dipshit.

[cboy4]

26. Yea, and it's clear you don't give a shit about the

feelings of gay people to so casually dismiss this incident instead of asking why this is such as sore subject.

You should be ashamed of yourself for throwing gay people under the bus, especially if you're a minority.

[UALRBSofL]

2. IndianaJones

If Obama is the nominee I hope his supporters as well as Hillary supporters work on him to be more involved in GLBT issues and try to get him to change policy. If we could make it an issue in the GE maybe he will respond.

[Occam Bandage]

10. Both of them are, on the issues, identical--and are, realistically, as progressive

as we could hope for at the moment. I'd love to see him in support of gay marriage, but we're probably going to have to pass civil unions first, and get middle America used to that first.

[SoFlaJet]

3. just another example of scumbag politics

by a desperate campaign that is shocked to find they are going to lose an election they had all but locked up. So when does Hillary and Bill come out and support John McCain?

[Straight Shooter]

4. I don't know if a majority are homophobes or if they think GLBTs are unworthy sinners.

But it's very obvious by now that a majority don't care if they're exploited negatively or not. :(

Hope! Change! Unity!

[NMMNG]

35. People who think GLBTs are "unworthy sinners"

are homophobes.

Those who don't care if they're exploited negatively are scum.

[NJSecularist]

8. He disassociated himself from McClurkin months ago

Give it up, Hillbots. :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

You've beaten this horse to death, now just let it die.

[Ediacara]

11. He "disassociated" himself ONLY after using him to attract bigots

Obama had a chance to disassociate himself from McClurkin a week before the event when he got a barrage of press and pressure. He didn't. Instead of disassociation, he promoted McClurkin to the event's emcee, allowed him freedom to spew hate, then afterwards issued a wishy-washy "I disagree blah blah blah" statement.

Disassociate my ass... He used McClurkin in a calculated effort to attract bigots, then tossed him to the side when the job was finished.

[Iceburg]

13. While Obama was parading McClurkin cures around the country

Hillary was addressing the GLBT on their home turf

See Hillary's letter to the GLBT at Our Chart

[ieoeja]

18. What happened to your anger at Clinton last May?

While McClurkin and the Clintons go back much further than that, they were still working together as late as May 1997. When Obama stole Donnie from the Clinton camp a few weeks later, it was seen as somewhat of a coup ... until they learned about his ex-gay ministry.

I suspect the Clintons had no more knowledge of McClurkin's ex-gay ministry than did Obama. They just got lucky that Obama stole him away before it became a widely known issue. Otherwise they would be the ones having to disavow themselves from McClurkin again and again and again and again and again and....

[Umbram]

20. Put your facts away

they can't help you here.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. Get it right or don't bother

Donnie used to be 'just a singer' and did sing for Clinton and Oprah too. Then came the gay bashing statements on 700 Club and all around and his book and all of that.
Obama did not 'steal' Donnie from the Clintons, in fact Donnie McClurkin has been a Bush backer for many years, and sang a weepy eyed version of 'Stand' for and to George W Bush on national live television at the 2004 Republican Convention. McClurkin's praise of GW Bush is well recorded and goes way beyond a vote.
When the Clintons got sung to by Donnie, he was not 'out' as an ex-gay and had never made any such statements. So yes, they did not know about them as they were still in the future. Obama hired the guy to MC events, and to speak on Obama's behalf, after the book, the varioius press bashes and after the GOP Convention apperance.
Just so you know, I'm not a big Hillary fan, and if it were not for this I might be an Obama choir memeber. I have yet to vote. Your candidate has thus far refused to so much as say that when Donnie spoke against my family he was doing so against Obama's wishes.

You do not have your facts in line.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. 1997

The Obama events took place in 2007, a decade later. 1997 was before McClurkin's book and his open gay bashing. Back then, I listened to Donnie too, he's a very good singer. After the book and the 700 Club and singing for Bush at GOP Con 2004, anyone who was unaware of Donnie's stance was willfully unaware. That means Obama.
Now I have yet to vote and may skip or may vote for Hillary or who knows. But unless he is clear and apologetic, no Primary Obama vote from me.

[ieoeja]

29. 2007. I transcribed that wrong.

Sorry for the mistake. Those pictures are from 2007, not 1997 as I poster earlier. So apparently both Obama and Clinton were willfully unaware.

Or maybe they just weren't paying that much attention? Obama hired Donnie McClurkin on the recommendation of a famous R&B artist. He had apparently never heard of the guy and vetted no further than the fact that he was a Clinton associate willing to take a gig for Obama.

I first heard of the man when this controversy erupted.

Aside from Obama, how many politicians do you know argue forcibly in favor of gay rights in front of anti-gay audiences, atheism in front of anti-atheist audiences, or women's rights in front of anti-abortion audiences? This is the big reason I support Obama. When he speaks in front of such groups and is questioned on the subject, he argues for us instead of changing the subject.

[miceelf]

39. ???

Bill's hair was that white in 1997? did you look at the photos?

[blm]

21. Or undermining 2000 and 2004 nominees and sabotaging Ohio Dem voters?

With continuous backstabbing:
http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354

With 3wk book tour to defend Bush:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

With calls to WH to sabotage Ohio voters:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward

[mkultra]

22. Dont assume religion means bigotry

I'm very spiritual but i do not support oppression based on orientation.


I know that obama doesn't because i heard it in his speeches. If he did, i would kick him to the curb in an instant.
I dont know anything about this McClurkin guy but if he is a bigot, i would hope that the Obama campaign is not asking him to speak for them.

[cboy4]

27. Well of course McClurkin spokle for the Obama campaign.

That's why they allowed him to perform for a campaign event.

Let me help you learn a little bit more about McClurkin.

He's a wonderful man. :sarcasm:



Views on homosexuality

Although he identified as gay for several years, McClurkin states that he is now an ex-gay.<6> In his book Eternal Victim, Eternal Victor McClurkin wrote that homosexuality is a spiritual issue and thus one can be delivered from it by God;

"The abnormal use of my sexuality continued until I came to realize that I was broken and that homosexuality was not God's intention... for my masculinity."<7>

He then describes himself as going through a process by which he became "a saved and sanctified man". McClurkin has stated that homosexuality is a curse.<4>
Political involvement

McClurkin's listing as a headlining performer for Senator Barack Obama's 2008 Presidential campaign has stirred controversy because of his views on homosexuality.<8><9>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnie_McClurkin

[mkultra]

32. huh, well hes a retard

I do not think obama shares his views on everything, especially not this.
I have my views on homosexuality that probably differ from yours but, in the end, they don't really matter.

[cboy4]

34. Of course your views matter. This is a discussion board where

people trade ideas and learn.

If there's anything you're unsure about, I'd be happy to try to answer your question(s).

[jackson_dem]

28. He is a bigot. It is like if Hillary had Fred Phelps give a speech at a rally

[mkultra]

33. thats seems a bit of an exageration

i think fred phelps would have to agree with at least a couple of her views before she would let him speak.

I know that the head of NOW spoke for Hillary. I think she has said some pretty stupid things.

Not that shes a good comparison to McClurikin either.

[ieoeja]

30. You are correct.

Obama had never heard of McClurkin. McClurkin was recommended by an R&B artist. They learned McClurkin had shared a stage with Bill Clinton in May of last year and decided to hire him without vetting any further.

When Obama found out about McClurkin's ex-gay ministry, he should have fired him regardless of the inconvenience.

On the other hand, Obama does go in front of anti-gay/atheist/abortion audiences and argue forcibly for gay/atheist/abortion rights. I don't know any other politician who does that. So the failure to fire McClurkin would seem to be less about cowardice than about inconveniences like having to refund tickets, getting a new headliner for that one evening, etc.

[NMMNG]

36. That's not what McClurkin said.

McClurkin said during the concert that he had been introduced to Obama by Oprah Winfrey.

Of course then Obama's favorite gospel singer shits all over gay people to the cheers of thousands. Yay. :eyes:


And Bill Clinton just happened to be at the same event with McClurkin--it was Andrew Young's 75th birthday party. Don't try to pretend it was some Bill Clinton/Donnie McClurkin love fest. But I'm not surprised with your disingenuous attempt to pretend it was. Read this if you need details.

[Maat]

31. It was a terrible thing to do; HOWEVER,

as a former Kucinich supporter, I had to weigh the factors, and I weighed them VERY CAREFULLY.

This PFLAGer has always fought for GLBT-rights; it is a very important effort in my life.

I cannot vote for "a hawk," however, who gets positively gleeful on stage as she talks about bombing innocent civilians as she's going after 'terrorists.' This is illegal and immoral invasion, and she knows it. So is preemptive war. She NEVER has mentioned (to my knowledge) the phrases "imminent harm" and "habeas corpus." Obama has. The first phrase keeps one from invading countries illegally in preemptive war, and the second refers to restoration of rights humans have enjoyed for several hundred years.


I respectfully disagree that this is a valid reason for putting hundreds of civilians in danger via bombing and preemptive war, via voting for Hillary.

[RoadRage]

37. Obama has much more to lose then gain by bringing up McClurkin..

If you hate him for McClurkin, is him saying 6 months later "I'm Sorry" going to get you to flip from Clinton to Obama? NO... you're going to say "Well, to late buddy" or "You're just saying that to get my vote, you really don't mean it at all". If you've decided to make this your reason for not supporting him, an "I'm sorry" isn't going to mean jack-shit.

If Obama WERE to apologize, this would bring attention to a subject that he doesn't want on EITHER SIDE of the fence. Sorry folks - but he needs the support of some people in the south who are Anti-Gay bigots. Deal with it. Those people normally vote republican, but they're considering voting for Obama. Not because they think he'll suddenly vote the other way on gay issues as they may like - but they're ignooring the gay issue and voting for him for some other reason. Obama is going to continue to push for GLBT issues, but why adviertise it at piss off his anti-gay voters?

So there.. McClurkin will stand as it is, and as it should. You can hate him for it.. but at the end of the day, if elected - he's going to stand up for you as much or more then HRC will. Even if you don't vote for him. So THAT is when he'll be apologizing to you.. when he pushes for Civil Unions, continues to push for stronger Hate Crime legislation, etc. He's not going to SAY he's sorry.. he's going to show you.

I think i'd take the later.