Levin and Nelson: No Revotes

[babylonsister]

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_stump/archive/2008/02/13/levin-and-nelson-no-revotes.aspx

Levin and Nelson: No Revotes

Very interesting Roll Call story this morning: It seems the senior Democratic senators from Michigan and Florida oppose against any do-over votes in their states.

Sens. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) and Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) dismissed the possibility in interviews on Tuesday. Levin and Nelson said caucuses would effectively void the primaries in each of their states, and are pushing to have their delegates receive full voting power at the convention.

“You can’t undo an election with a caucus, especially one where 1.75 million Florida Democrats voted,” said Nelson, who filed an unsuccessful lawsuit last year seeking to overturn the national party’s decision to strip Florida of its delegates.

Levin had similar thoughts. “It would not be practical or fair to hold a caucus,” Levin said. “You’ve got 600,000 people who voted. You can’t just throw out the votes of 600,000 people.” Levin said the state will appeal to have its delegates restored by the party convention’s credentials committee this summer....

Asked about the fact that Clinton appeared on the Michigan ballot and Obama did not, Levin noted that it was Obama’s choice to withdraw his name.

“I was disappointed that he did,” Levin said.

:wtf:

Throw in NAACP chairman Julian Bond's recent statement to this effect, and Hillary is starting to gather some support for seating FL and MI that can't be completely laughed off, politically, however you may feel about the merits.

more...

[HeraldSquare212]

1. Hillary doesn't do well in caucuses - therefore, it's impossible to hold them. nt

[riskpeace]

8. Almost 2 million FL Democratic voters

on a Primary Day with a property tax amendment on the ballot.
Those 2 million voters should be heard.

[HeraldSquare212]

10. They need to take that up with their representatives,

who disenfranchised them.

[riskpeace]

15. The FL legislature moved the primary

And the FL legislature is overwhelmingly Republican. Notice how the FL Republican Governor has set himself up for VP consideration by endorsing McCain and giving him momentum into Super Tuesday.

I live in Bay County, FL and the closest Democratic legislator is probably 100 miles away in Tallahassee. So I do not really buy into your argument that nearly 2 million Democratic voters should be ignored because the GOP-led legislature moved up the primary.

[HeraldSquare212]

20. I recall the vote being 115-1, right?

Didn't Dems support it, too? Even if they didn't, do you think the Republicans should be allowed to set primary dates for the Democratic party? Isn't that supposed to be a decision of the Democratic party?

[riskpeace]

23. You're right the Dems were stupid

at the state and national level.
I think there's no need to have a caucus because 2 million Democrats already voted

[HeraldSquare212]

29. You voted for your representatives and then they voted.

That's democracy.

[riskpeace]

44. 2 million Democrats voted

Nearly 1 million voted for Senator Clinton.
That's democracy.
We'll see what happens with the delegates.

[PassingFair]

49. They voted to take away our vote.

That's DEMOCRACY?

[HeraldSquare212]

50. You can vote them out next election.

[PassingFair]

54. They hope we will forget in the meantime.

And we usually do.

Hillary is finding out that we don't ALWAYS
forget ...

[theboss]

16. They were heard...on the property tax amdendment

So...good times.

[riskpeace]

17. I appreciate your thoughtful reply

That is a counter-productive attitude to take towards voters in a swing state that Dems need to win in November.
I would imagine the GOP-led legislature contemplated this possible outcome when they moved the primary.

[theboss]

30. So, the DNC screwed up

You want to reward Hillary for being Machiavellian following a local screw-up.

[PermanentRevolution]

31. I'm sure they did

I'm sure the GOPers in our state legislature were rolling in the aisles at the thought of the democratic primary not counting.

BUT... it still changes nothing, in my eyes.

I KNEW, going into the primary, that it wouldn't count. We'd been told for WEEKS that it was meaningless. I'm certainly not going to stay home in Nov, regardless of whether or not our delegates get seated. I had ZERO EXPECTATION, going into the polls, that my vote in the primary would mean anything. I won't feel disenfranchised if the delegates are kept out, because I knew from the start that my vote was worthless due to a power squabble between the DNC and the state legislature. I DO feel disenfranchised by the original actions taken by the legislature and the DNC. I'm pissed that we got into this whole situation pointlessly, but I'm sure as hell not going to advocate our delegates getting seated now. The DNC made its choice and it needs to stick to it and face the consequences, whatever they may be. Same goes for our legislature. Hopefully this issue will finally put an end to the ridiculously over-hyped nature of Iowa and New Hampshire and get some states that actually represent the majority of the country into pole position in the primaries, but even if it doesn't, it's way too late to change the rules for THIS primary now. I voted in a meaningless primary, knowing it was meaningless. If that suddenly turns into a crucial delegate allotment, I'll be pissed beyond words, because that wasn't the deal.

EVERYONE who voted should have known full well that our votes were meaningless. As such, none of us have any standing to claim we were hard-done. Rail all you want against the DNC and the state legislature. I'll join you. But it's just plain wrong for the DNC to try and weasel out of their actions now that it's become clear that these are potentially tie-breaking delegates. I hope our delegates DO turn out to be the crucial factor in deciding the contest, and I hope they're not allowed in. And I hope that causes such a huge blowback that nobody who was in a position to get us into this mess is still there in 4 years. I hope everyone involved ends up out of a job. THEN, I'll feel better about this whole ridiculous pile of shit.

Seating our delegates now, after stripping our primary of any value? That's just trying to sweep the whole mess under the carpet and pretend it never happened.

No thanks.

[goodgd_yall]

41. Not to worry

If the delegates are seated and it puts Hillary ahead in delegates, the Obama camp will feel that they're the victims. It will be a mess that Florida and the DNC will not want to repeat no matter how it goes.

[riskpeace]

45. I agree with you.

At the same time, you voted and had the chance to express your preference, and so did two million other Democratic voters. I would not have a problem with delegates being awarded based on the results. But we'll see what happens with the DNC Rules Committee. You're right, it is definitely a bad situation.

[LakeSamish706]

2. Piss on that... They had better not think about seating them without...

some sort of do over... Lisa Caputo made that same statement a day or so ago on CNN with Wolff Blitzer and he told her it was wrong as well.

[still_one]

47. If Hillary wins the nomination because of that without a do over they WILL lose the GE

I will NEVER vote for ANYONE who wins that way

[DJ13]

3. Dear Mr. Levin and Mr. Nelson

Go F yourselves and your assumptions you have a right to get Clinton the nomination with your refusal to actually hold fair elections, where voters would know ahead of time that their votes would finally count.

[GarbagemanLB]

4. Want a way to ensure GOP victory in November? Seat them.

[oasis]

40. Hillary won't have any "Jellyfish Dems" working for her general election campaign,

so don't worry.:smoke:

[Coexist]

5. Nelson's pride is at stake, he pushed early voting hard, sued and lost

when he did - he can't go back now.

This won't surprise Floridians.

[Jane Austin]

32. I have two good friends in Florida,

smart, politically savvy professional women.

They can't stand "Beel" Nelson.

Just can't stand him.

[hell-bent]

55. I live in central Florida

and I, and my neighbors just love Nelson. BTW, we saw no Clinton ads but numerous Obama TV ads,eh. Why did he break his pledge?

[Jane Austin]

59. What really secured the Florida vote for Clinton

was the implication, every time she said anything, was that Florida voters mattered only to her and not to the other Dems.

What a surprise that they voted for her, since she said she was going to work for them to be seated.

So Bill Nelson isn't too conservative for you and you like his votes for Supreme Court?

[AtomicKitten]

6. So much for democracy, eh? Feh.

Jeez, some Dems are starting to sound like the Rs in Florida circa 2000 trying to shut down/manipulate the democratic process.

[KittyWampus]

7. then both states can suffer at the hands of their corrupt party leaders.

[Mme. Defarge]

9. The old

"heads I win, tails you lose" gambit.

[David Zephyr]

11. Edwards, Obama, Biden, Dodd, Kucinich, Gravel all played by the rules that Hillary broke.

Cheating is un-American.

[AtomicKitten]

12. what's worse is Democrats defending it

[GarbagemanLB]

13. Agreed.

[Pathwalker]

19. Dodd and Kucinich's name were on the ballot in Michigan, AND

Kucinich campaigned here. So much for your theory.

[babylonsister]

24. The DNC stripped the states of delegates, not any candidates. To renege

on that now would be criminal imo.


DNC Punishes Michigan For Early Primary Date

By Michael D. Shear
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 2, 2007; Page A06

Democratic National Committee members voted yesterday to strip Michigan of its delegates to next year's national convention, making it the second state to be punished so severely for holding a primary election earlier than the national party allows.

Leaders of both major political parties have tried to enforce a calendar in which only a few states are allowed to hold their voting early. But several states, including Michigan and Florida, have bucked those rules, hoping to gain more influence over the nominating process by voting when the race is still wide open.

Michigan Democratic Party committee member Debbie Dingell, left, and chairman Mark Brewer, listen to a vote of the Democratic National Committee Rules and Bylaws Committee as their case for moving up the Michigan primary to Jan. 15, 2008 is rejected, at the DNC fall meeting in Vienna, Va., Saturday, Dec. 1, 2007. Democratic leaders voted to strip Michigan of all its delegates to the national convention next year as punishment for scheduling an early presidential primary in violation of party rules.(AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite)
Michigan Democratic Party committee member Debbie Dingell, left, and chairman Mark Brewer, listen to a vote of the Democratic National Committee Rules and Bylaws Committee as their case for moving up the Michigan primary to Jan. 15, 2008 is rejected, at the DNC fall meeting in Vienna, Va., Saturday, Dec. 1, 2007. Democratic leaders voted to strip Michigan of all its delegates to the national convention next year as punishment for scheduling an early presidential primary in violation of party rules.(AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite) (J. Scott Applewhite - AP)

In August, the Democratic National Committee responded by stripping Florida of its convention delegates after the state scheduled its primary for Jan. 29. Yesterday in Vienna, the DNC's rules and bylaws committee issued the same penalty to Michigan for its Jan. 15 primary date.

Its action means none of Michigan's 156 delegates will be allowed to participate when the Democratic party meets in Denver next summer to pick a presidential nominee.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/01/AR2007120100722.html

[Pathwalker]

28. Not news to me. I just get tired of people saying they

weren't on the ballot when they were. Kucinich also campaigned here, that is also a fact that is ignored in the PUNISH these states threads. I don't see how repeating those lies which are known to Michigan voters helps advance the truth, that's all.

[lisa58]

14. Weren't these the states that REALLY didn't count

[IDemo]

18. So Carl and Bill won't mind if Diebold spots McCain with an additional 2 million votes in the GE?

Absent a full, fair re-caucus or primary election, what they are pushing amounts to nothing less than another form of election theft.

[hayu_lol]

21. The people of Florida and Michigan voted...

their votes need to be counted and their delegates seated.

In the end, they probably will be.

[IDemo]

25. Sorry, but their votes were cast in an invalid election, and everyone understood that

If a U.N. official were to monitor an election in a Third World country where several candidates did not appear on the ballot, would you be fighting for those votes as well?

[goodgd_yall]

35. That doesn't apply to Florida

But I do think the Michigan vote is problematic because of the non-appearance of Obama and Edwards' names.

[stillcool]

22. Isn't this between the

Democratic National Committee and those who broke the rules?

[oviedodem]

26. What a surprise. I believe Nelson and Levin are Hillary supporters and

they know what will happen with a caucus and maybe even a primary at this stage.

[cottonseed]

27. Those states are "Spoiled".

Not spoiled in the sense of a spouse believing she's due the presidency, spoiled in the sense that voters in these states had been told their votes did not matter, not to bother to come out. Just as spoiled ballots can't be counted, unfortunately, the results from these states shouldn't be as well.

[goodgd_yall]

37. But voters did come out to vote

My view is that the proportion of people staying home who would have voted for Obama is equal to the proportion of people staying home who would have voted for Hillary, so the votes would be fair.

Michigan is another matter.

[goodgd_yall]

33. Florida votes should count

But I don't know about Michigan. How do you assign the uncommitted votes. I am pissed off that Edwards and Obama withdrew their names; it complicates how to deal with the Michigan delegates in a way that is fair.

As for the argument that Florida votes shouldn't count because voters didn't believe their votes would count, I don't see how that would benefit one candidate over another. As many potential Obama supporters would have stayed away as Hillary supporters if they didn't think their vote would matter. So I think the Florida delegates should be counted.

[Johnny__Motown]

34. Clinton Cronies.... no surprise

I want a re-vote

I don't want my vote counted if I had to break the rules to make it count.

[totodeinhere]

36. This might all be academic.

Even if Michigan and Florida are seated, that might not pick up enough delegates for Hillary under the proportional allocation system to make any difference in the final outcome.

[goodgd_yall]

38. But if it would make a difference

they need to be considered.

[RiverStone]

39. Those delegates get seated - it would be a huge...

...clusterfuck for the party.

Lets hope Obama's continued momentum makes this discussion moot.

[UALRBSofL]

52. The Florida chapter of the RNC

Has been sending out thousands of flyer's to democrats stating how disenfranchised the voters are and that the voters and the Florida Democratic Party were duped by the DNC/Dean trying to keep voters out in november.

[stahbrett]

42. There are only a couple of options that make sense:

First, it doesn't look like there will be any additional elections/caucuses.

Second, the elections already held were advertised as meaningless - it's like having an NFL pre-season game, and then in the 4th quarter have the NFL decide that the game counts now.

So, that leaves the following:

1) Split the delegates 50/50 between the two remaining contestants with an actual chance of getting to 2,025.

2) Split the delegates proportionally based on the delegate count going into the convention - so if Obama has 52% he'd get that amount from MI and FL.

[still_one]

51. Interesting proposition, both which won't be accepted

Spliting the delegates is the same as not counting the votes

and proportionally split the delegates going into the Convention does not accurately truely represent the wishes of the MI and FL voters

Only two ways that I will accept:

1. Either don't seat the delegates
2. redo the election

[stahbrett]

53. I understand where you're coming from

Splitting the delegates really is similar to not counting the votes, which is why it's a good option (in my opinion). So split them 50/50 to take away any advantage, while still giving MI and FL a voice at the convention. Of course it's possible, but not likely at this point, that by adding 50% of MI and FL to the delegate totals, one of them will reach 2,025, but MI and FL will have lost their right to actually make an actual choice, which unfortunately, barring a new election, is what needs to happen - otherwise we'll see even more states moving up their primaries.

[still_one]

61. I am not against what you are saying, I just don't think it will happen /nt

[goodgd_yall]

43. On the Michigan votes

I think Obama should get the delegates that a 45% vote would have gotten him (100 - Hillary's 55% vote).

[still_one]

48. That is not the point. The DNC setup rules. The ones who obeyed those rules are being punished

They want to lose the general election, let them seat those delegates without a redo

[hell-bent]

56. Sorry, I live in central Florida

and Obama broke the rules with his TV ads! Why did he break his pledge?

[still_one]

60. You want to lose the general election without a redo, push this issue and watch /nt

[babylonsister]

62. He didn't; he bought nat'l advertising that couldn't omit FL and had

the blessing of the SC Dem Party who set up the pledge rules. Do a google search and read all about it.

[still_one]

46. Don't redo, seat those delegates, and I if Hillary wins the nomination because of this

I WILL NOT VOTE IN THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

Punish those candidates that DID WHAT THE DNC instructed them to do, BULLSHIT

and watch us lose the general election

[noonwitch]

57. I voted in Michigan's primary and would like for my vote to count

Michigan can't financially afford a caucus.

[anigbrowl]

58. If Obama opens up and holds a lead of more than 57 delegate votes

then FL and MI can be seated and have their votes counted, and it sitll wont' save her. Go look up the numbers of CNN - seating both would give her about 57 extra delegates - that's the size of her advantage in FL and MI. I think we can assume 'uncommitted' delegates from WI would go for Obama since he's the only other option, and those who wanted Hillary have already voted for her.

Leaving aside Superdelegates, Obama already has a 103 delegate lead from the states that have voted so far. So you could plug the numbers from FL and MI in today and he would still ahead. If his numbers keep up as they are this will become a non-issue.

[Alexander]

63. Levin and Nelson want Hillary to win at any cost. This is despicable.

Hold another primary or caucus.

If Hillary's such a good candidate, she should win both states in a walk.

The truth is that Levin and Nelson are afraid to do this, because they know she will lose. Badly.

[mmonk]

64. So next time candidates,

ignore the rules agreements beforehand because the state parties are.