Joe Wilson: Hillary Clinton is Battle Tested

[Catchawave]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-wilson/battletested_b_86355.html

<snip>

What gives us confidence Mr. Obama will be stronger the next time he faces Mr. McCain, a seasoned political fighter with extensive national security credentials? Even more important, what special disadvantages does Mr. Obama carry into this contest on questions of national security?

How will Mr. Obama answer Mr. McCain about his careless remark about unilaterally bombing Pakistan -- perhaps blowing up an already difficult relationship with a nuclear state threatened by Islamic extremists? How will Mr. Obama respond to charges made by the Kenyan government that his campaigning activities in Kenya in support of his distant cousin running for president there made him "a stooge" and constituted interference in the politics of an important and besieged ally in the war on terror?

How will he answer charges that his desire for unstructured personal summits without preconditions with a host of America's adversaries, from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to Kim Jong Il, would be little more than premature capitulation?

Senator Obama claims superior judgment on the war in Iraq based on one speech given as a state legislator representing the most liberal district in Illinois at an anti-war rally in Chicago, and in so doing impugns the integrity of those who were part of the debate on the national scene. In mischaracterizing the debate on the Authorization for the Use of Military Force as a declaration of war, he implicitly blames Democrats for George Bush's war of choice. Obama's negative attack line does not conform to the facts. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I should know. I was among the most prominent anti-war voices at the time -- and never heard about or from then Illinois State Senator Obama.

<snip>

[ccpup]

1. easy to forget the facts when one is caught up in The Speech

or The Rally. I sometimes wonder if people forget we're choosing the next Leader of the Free World who will be inheriting an unbelievably screwed-up-nine-ways-to-Sunday mess! Do we really want to put a National Neophyte in the Big Chair who's long on rhetoric and the ability to engender excitement, yet dangerously short on the experience necessary to clean up Bush's disaster?

I sometimes scratch my head at the stupidity of the American Voter.

[Catchawave]

4. My concerns exactly.....

we have to do more than hope for change, and Hillary's the Shark to Obama's bait.

[iconocrastic]

26. She's battle tested alright - battles from the scandals she created herself

And her own divisiveness.

Has been bringing shame upon herself for years.

Nothing to brag about.

[sandyd921]

75. I fully concur

with your concerns and those of Amb Wilson. A mess is right! The wisdom of electing someone with as slim a resume and lacking in-depth experience totally escapes me given the sheer complexity of this mess on every front. I will vote for him in the GE if he's the Dem nominee (as concerned as I am with Obama's lack of experience, I'm even more alarmed by the prospect of "Bomb, Bomb Iran" as prez). Never thought I'd find myself supporting Hillary, but support her I did in my caucus.

[Bicoastal]

2. I like Joe Wilson...

...but he's wrong on this one.

[Catchawave]

3. I hope you read the whole article, I agreed

with every word.

I'm leaning Hillary, and this is probably the reason. Girl Power trumps the Philosopher King :D

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. If you read the whole article, then you know that the article does not

support its own premise - that of Hillary being a 'fighter'. It doesn't specify a single time when Hillary took to the forces of evil head-to-head and won. All it does is suggest that Obama does NOT have the chops. And those arguments are pretty tenuous, if you really examine them.

He equates talking with hostile leaders with 'surrender'. He takes a strong, but respectable reply in the letter exchange with McCain as being 'intimidated' - with nothing to back that up.

Show me that this supports Hillary being a fighter, and that it is NOT just bashing at the non-DLC candidate. Please.

[Catchawave]

41. One of the comments was telling, you should read through them....

My thanks to Ambassador Wilson for a reasoned and incisive commentary. Certainly, some will disagree and that's O.K. What isn't O.K. is the torrent of invective now being called down upon his head here by many who purport to be Obama supporters. Let's hope I'm right in believing most of these low life's are not really Democrats but rather Republican ringers cloaked in anonimity who are playing that long-time Republican game of dirty tricks.
When the books analyzing this primary campaign are written, some will certainly expose the greatest political fiction story ever told: The Republicans are salivating to run against Hillary Clinton. Nonsense.
The Republicans are goading and pushing the gullible among us to really believe Mr. Obama would be the best candidate to defeat the Hun by reasonng with them.
If you doubt such a scheme, clench your teeth and watch Fox, watch MSNBC, watch the right-wingers - who grow in number - on CNN. Mrs. Clintom is continually trashed while Mr. Obama is rarely criticized and often admired. Is this indicative of Republican fervor for a Clinton candidacy?
A nano-second after Mr. Obama clinches the nomination, if that were to happen, his faux-supporters will begin smearing him, squadrons of Kwicki Kraft Klaverns will steam out of a sewer near you and the cukoo left will once again be left - far left - standing with Democratic blood on their bumbling hands.

At least with Hillary, I know what I'm getting....Girl Power :D

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. Is Wilson being deceptive or just ignorant when he accuses Obama

Of wanting to "unilaterally bomb Pakistan"? Excuse me, but Obama said that he would only take such an action if given actionable intelligence that they were harboring Al Qaeda. Benazir Bhutto agreed with him!

[ShortnFiery]

8. Sweet Whispers that we are unaware of may be Joe Wilson's hidden impetus ... for covert agenda.

:shrug: :(

[jakem]

6. does it help to be battle tested if you won't win?

[IndieLeft]

7. I like Joe Wilson... but he needs to stay out of this.

[Dinger]

22. Why?

Just asking.

:shrug:

[Bake]

44. Why should he "stay out of this?"

Please do tell. If he had endorsed your candidate, you'd be ECSTATIC. Since he didn't, I guess he just needs to STFU.

:rofl:

Have some more Kool-Aid.

Bake

[oasis]

46. Kerry and tired ass Ted Kennedy should bow out as well. (eom)

[rodeodance]

51. why so??

[Raffi Ella]

9. So glad to see this again

One of the most compelling arguments out there for a Clinton nomination.

K&R.

[ShortnFiery]

10. Yeah, Joe Wilson knows every "damn" thing.

:crazy: :eyes:

[robbedvoter]

36. Obama supporter and DU-er extraordinaire H20 seems to think so

(which should carry more water with you than a man who put himself at risk to debunk the war lies)
"I can say

that Senator Clinton was, in my opinion, one of the first people in Congress to understand what the implications of the Plame scandal really were. And she was a supporter of the Wilsons from the beginning. I think that Joseph Wilson's endorsing Senator Clinton is the result of this, and I consider it one of the more significant endorsements of the season."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4227814&mesg_id=4243925

[Catchawave]

12. Joe's being ripped apart now....lol....

Typical circular firing squad....Ready. Fire. Aim.

[Raffi Ella]

19. yeah, pretty predictable at this point, no?

That's ok,they see it and so does everyone else.It's worth the vitriol to get the truth out there for a Hillary Nomination.

[Catchawave]

24. I like your attitude :)

Nobody's defending Obama, just attacking Joe.

[Raffi Ella]

28. That's how the story goes....

'attack the messenger'.

Hey,in a race with Hillary at the Helm? you gotta have attitude to be able to fight the smear machine that is the MSM/Rightwing NUTS/D.U. Hillary Haters.


I'm just following Hillarys example;trying to get the truth out there.

[Catchawave]

33. Many of Wes Clark's former "supporters"

have stabbed him in the back. At least that's how it looks to me with their mean-spirited attacks on Hillary.

Joe and Wes.....yesterday's DU heroes, todays DU Public Enemies #1 and #2.

Sigh.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. I'll say.

She got battle tested something fierce last night.

[Catchawave]

13. Avoiding the topic ?

Did you read the whole article ?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Not the whole thing.

It's really a pretty silly, immature hit piece.

But I do agree with the title. She's certainly been battle tested.

[DefenseLawyer]

14. Rolling over for Karl Rove repeatedly is not a "battle"

in my opinion. That is not to say Hillary Clinton could not lead the country, but I wouldn't call her time in the Senate as doing "battle", I have seen it as safe, calculated and poll driven.

[Catchawave]

16. Unlike Obama's ?

Riiiiight.

[DefenseLawyer]

18. No

I could say much the same thing about Mr. Obama's record in the Senate, I don't think he is "battle tested" either. Not every critical observation about Mrs. Clinton comes from an Obama shill.

[calmblueocean]

17. Wilson makes good pts, but loses his credibility by saying the AUMF wasn't a vote for war.

It was a vote to give the president the authority to use the military however he saw fit, and everyone knew that Bush wanted war, and that he was just using the UN as a fig leaf. And it's clear to me, anyway, that Hillary's vote for it was a matter of political expediency. She didn't want to be characterized as weak on terror when she ran for president, and she was afraid that Bush would have some huge success in Iraq, and she wouldn't be on the winning side of history. She basically abandoned the needs of the nation for her own political career, and now she has to face the consequences of that.

Obama has many areas of vulnerability, including the ones Wilson mentioned, but defending the AUMF just makes him look like a hack, and detracts from the substance of his argument.

[Catchawave]

20. He was spot on about Obama's anti-war speech.....

it's going to be a problem in the General.

[HeraldSquare212]

23. This is Hillary's first battle. I'd say Obama is doing better than her. nt

[AtomicKitten]

25. A moot point if she can't get past Barack.

[Cameron27]

27. Great post

thank you. K&R

[formernaderite]

29. Part of the reason I switched to Obama

was the paternalistic rantings of some of the hillary supporters. As if "I" was simply incapable of making an informed choice. As much as I detest what the Bush admin did Joe and his wife, he reeks of smarmy'ness and elitism. I almost get the feeling, he'd like to remove the actual vote from the "people" and allow the more educated and knowledgeable "superdelegates" decide.

[publicatlarge]

31. Discuss the high points of your 'informed choice'

..in addressing the points made by Joseph Wilson. Show us your stuff. Or, are you simply on an ego-driven mission, much as the Great O?

How are maturity and experience bad things?

Seeing a lot of 'ageism' in many posts here.

[formernaderite]

50. ageism...that's funny

because I'm a crotchedy old guy

[ShortnFiery]

42. Yes, it seems as if us lowly "unwashed masses" are not considered as intelligent as HRC's

selected beauties that were the D.C. elites ... aye Joe? you arrogant, and now inconsequential snob. :thumbsdown:

[Hart2008]

30. I think he means she is an old battle ax. n/t

[publicatlarge]

32. See what I am referring to?.......eom

<sigh>

[Hart2008]

35. No, unless you agree that an old battle ax is, by definition, battle tested. n/t

[Catchawave]

38. battle ax is a slur.

What's wrong with you people, defend your candidate fer crissakes. :banghead:

[Hart2008]

40. But it is Wilson who implied that she is an old battle ax.

I don't see battle ax is a slur in any dictionary.
Source?

And sorry, I am still undecided here.

:dilemma:

[Catchawave]

48. Where? He called her a seasoned gladiator.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/battle-ax

Google is your friend.

[ShortnFiery]

49. Wow! Maybe HRC will ooze testosterone and swagger like that old Tory "War Horse" Maggie Thatcher?

Yes, "women can be warmongers too" as is reflected by Bob Kerrey's absolute support. :crazy: You know Bob Kerrey, right wing democrat who salivates for preventive war a la Lieberman? :thumbsdown:

[Hart2008]

54. Margaret Thatcher was an old battle ax if ever there was one. n/t

[Catchawave]

58. Would Mrs. Obama like being called a "battle ax" ?

She's a strong lady also :shrug:

[Hart2008]

61. I don't speak for her, but she does come across as very classy. n/t

[Catchawave]

63. But you speak for Margaret Thatcher and Hillary Clinton ?

They are strong and "classy" too. They don't deserve your sexist comments either.

[Hart2008]

65. Why would anyone here defend Margaret Thatcher?

I certainly didn't claim to speak for these people.

The thread was about what Wilson wrote and implied.

Go speak for yourself for a change....

:eyes:

[Hart2008]

53. Hence an old battle ax, but Wilson didn't call her a gladiator...

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

1 : a broadax formerly used as a weapon of war
2 : a usually older woman who is sharp-tongued, domineering, or combative

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=battle-ax

Wilson states that Hillary is "a fighter."

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton is one of the few who fully understood the stakes in that battle.

She is both older, at 60, and also combative. The definition fits.

However, Wilson didn't write that Hillary was a gladiator, nor is that term appropriate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_gladiator

Google musn't like you much...

[Catchawave]

57. Obviously you didn't read the article, here's the last part

<snip>

In order to effect practical change against a determined adversary, we do not need a would-be philosopher-king but a seasoned gladiator who understands the fight Democrats will face in the fall campaign and in governing.

Theodore Roosevelt once commented, "It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly."

If he were around today, TR might be speaking of the woman in the arena. Hillary Clinton has been in that arena for a generation. She is one of the few to have defeated the attack machine that is today's Republican Party and to have emerged stronger. She is deeply knowledgeable about governing; she made herself into a power in the Senate; she is respected by our military; and she never flinches. She has never been intimidated, not by any Republican -- not even John McCain.

Barack Obama claims to represent the future, but it should be increasingly evident that he is not the man for this moment, especially with Mr. McCain's arrival. We've seen a preview of that contest already. It was a TKO.

<end>

[Hart2008]

59. "we do not need a would-be philosopher-king but a seasoned gladiator " doesn't call HRC a gladiatrix

He then segues to the TR quote, and the word "gladiator" does not appear in the remainder of the text.

(Funny but Wilson doesn't call TR a sexist.)

The woman who has been in the arena for a generation is, by definition, a battle ax.

Go complain to Websters if you don't like the word, it is what Wilson implied.

:hi:

[RaleighNCDUer]

66. "who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement"

Just what battles has Hillary won? Name them. Show me how she's gone into combat, been bloodied and scarred, yet emerged victorious.

The ONLY real battle she has founght was for Hillarycare in 93 and she got soundly whupped and never brought it up again. Until she started running for Pres. And THEN, what she brings up is the same, but worse, MANDATING that everyone buy private insurance (so as not to piss off the insurance companies this time).

She's built a career on vacillation and surrender.

She's no fighter.

[rodeodance]

52. another sexist comment regard Sen. Clinton!

[Hart2008]

55. If the shoe fits, wear it! n/t

[mod mom]

34. Read the comments-OUCH!

[robbedvoter]

37. read #32 - OUCH for you

[ShortnFiery]

47. IMO, not any MORE distasteful as one of HRC's adorers: Obama would wear a black sheet for the KKK.

:eyes:

Seems as if "inappropriate material" is being posted on both sides. :(

[Hart2008]

69. You would have loved my argument for Rosalynn Carter for President.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4227020&mesg_id=4227020

I guess that was sexist too....

:eyes:

[Az_lefty]

39. if HIllary's battle tested, she sure as hell didn't learn anything...

just take a look at her campaign, it's in panic mode. They had a bad plan, made too many assumptions and had to plan B. Doesn't sound like someone who's battle tested to me.

[Olney Blue]

43. Well, at least she didn't "stay the course" like some commanders we know....

:)

[emilyg]

45. Thanks for posting.

[moosen]

56. Save this article for the day after the General Election

an "I told ya' so" moment.

[Medusa]

60. Okay so why is her campaign in such disarray?

Why is it that the flunkies she hand-picked to run her campaign then proceeded to run it into the ground and she apparently either trusted them too much or simply took her eye off the ball and ended up in the mess she's in now? Battle tested doesn't mean that you're battle-ready. There IS a difference.

[Jacobin]

62. Keep in mind Joe Wilson supported Bush in 2000

Is a registered republican.

Sent $1,000 to Bush's 2000 campaign.

Ergo, he is way further to the right than most democrats. That should tell anyone who is paying attention where Hillary fits in the political spectrum.

That having been said, he is a hero in my mind, as is his wife, for trying to stop Bush's illegal war. He did more to try to stop it than Hillary did.

[Catchawave]

64. So?

Why doesn't he support McCain then? Mac isn't as far right as the right wingnuts want him to be.

I worked for McCain 2000 by the way, people change.

[theboss]

67. Define the battle, Joe

Hillary is battle-tested in the smearing while simultaneously triangluating politics of the 90s. The feeling I get is that voters are sick of that. I don't foresee McCain going that route.

Hillary's presence alone creates the battle. So, obviously she is battle-tested since she and her husband have forced the same battle on every issue for over 20 years.

I'm tired of that battle. Exhausted by it.

[dcindian]

68. battle tested my ass

Having someone cook for you while you lie around the white house is not being battle tested. Good try Joe

[Catchawave]

70. Whoa, nasty stuff.

:banghead:

What's wrong with you Obama people?

[IndianaGreen]

71. Hillary is a chicken hawk!

And she led the charge in support of Bush on Iraq, Iran, and in opposing Kerry's Alito filibuster and troop withdrawal resolution.

[Kolesar]

72. Hillary could have *led* the opposition to this war, but she was running for President

So she ignored her constituent contact letters and triangulated up her prowar position to cover all bases.

Another thread on Joe's political process: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4577761

[Catchawave]

73. Obama could have *led* too ?

At least Hillary's taken some risks, which leaders often do.

[nonconformist]

74. Poor Joe Wilson... look at this thread. He'll be proven right, once again. nt