Feeling torn...

[mzmolly]

I was an Edwards supporter who had Obama in my second slot until very recently. Why? I felt that Hillary did a better job debating and had better command of the issues. I have also been turned off by various comments made by spouses lately, but Michelle Obama's "I don't know if I'd support Hillary as our nominee" blather was enough to reconsider my previous 2nd place slot.

After looking over the platforms of both Clinton and Obama I feel both candidates have a similar agenda.

What I like about Obama is the fact that he's obviously inspirational. What I like about Hillary is the fact that she has such a command of the facts and she's been vetted nationally.

What concerns me about Obama is the fact that he's never been vetted on a National level. Are there things we don't know? Where will the Rezko hubub lead? Will he be such an "unknown" that he'll be easy to smear regardless of his actual integrity?

What concerns me about Hillary is her foreign policy philosophy. No, she's not a PNAC supporter. But, will she make an attempt at hubris to prove she is "tough on foreign policy"? She seems vulnerable to this thought process to me? Obama called it a "mindset" and I agree.

Another concern I have is Bill. Yes Bill. Has he settled down, or will the media pull the proverbial rabbit out of a hat just before the GE?

I supported Edwards in the primaries, and am tempted to vote for him again tonight in support of his platform. But, he wasn't perfect either. He supported the war in Iraq, for example.

I would appreciate any polite thoughts as to why I should support Hillary or Obama vs Edwards tonight. Namely, why they are better positioned to win than the other.

I respect my fellow DU-ers and will vote for either candidate in the GE.

Thanks in advance for your "help." :hi:

[waiting for hope]

1. Vote your heart. eom

[PresidentObama]

2. I supported Edwards, thought I was going to vote for Obama, and voted for Clinton.

Why?

Because I may not always like it, but I know where she stands. I know where she'll take the country. She's talking about issues in detail in a way Obama isn't. And she most importantly, she is very much electable in November despite what any one would say here on DU.

I like Obama's rhetoric, but is it hype? Someone described it here on DU today as voting for the devil you know versus the devil you don't know. Neither are devils, and I like both. But that basically sums it up.

I voted my heart today.

And went for Hillary.

[tyne]

3. Michelle

never said she wouldn't support Hillary. She was asked if she'd WORK to support Hillary Clinton. Huge diff.

[mzmolly]

7. I'll take your word for it.

Thanks. :hi:

[RethugAssKicker]

4. We need inpiration first.. We need change.... Facts

and "how to" can be delegated to our brightest... But the President must first
develop the policy of what he wants to do...

[DJ13]

5. This is why you need to think this through.......

The Cooper Concerns
By DAVID BROOKS
I’m not a Hillary-hater. She’s been an outstanding senator. She hung tough on Iraq through the dark days of 2005. In this campaign, she has soldiered on bravely even though she has most of the elected Democrats, news media and the educated class rooting against her.

But there are certain moments when her dark side emerges and threatens to undo the good she is trying to achieve. Her campaign tactics before the South Carolina primary were one such moment. Another, deeper in her past, involved Jim Cooper, a Democratic congressman from Tennessee.

Cooper is one of the most thoughtful, cordial and well-prepared members of the House. In 1992, he came up with a health care reform plan that would go on to attract wide, bipartisan support. A later version had 58 co-sponsors in the House — 26 Republicans and 32 Democrats. It was sponsored in the Senate by Democrat John Breaux and embraced by Daniel Patrick Moynihan, among others.

But unlike the plan Hillary Clinton came up with then, the Cooper plan did not include employer mandates to force universal coverage.

On June 15, 1993, Cooper met with Clinton to discuss their differences. Clinton was “ice cold” at the meeting, Cooper recalls. “It was the coldest reception of my life. I was excoriated.”

Cooper told her that she was getting pulled too far to the left. He warned that her plan would never get through Congress. Clinton’s response, Cooper now says, was: “We’ll crush you. You’ll wish you never mentioned this to me.”

In the weeks and months following that meeting, the Clinton administration reached out to Cooper. As David Broder and Haynes Johnson wrote in “The System,” their history of the health care reform effort, President Bill Clinton invited Cooper to go jogging and play golf. Others in the Clinton White House thought Cooper was right on the merits, and privately let him know.

But Hillary Clinton set up a war room to oppose Cooper, who was planning to run for the Senate in 1994. As the Broder and Johnson book makes clear, Clinton and her aides believed Cooper was pursuing his own political agenda. They accused him of crafting his plan in order to raise money from the insurance and hospital industries. They said he was in league with the for-profit hospitals to crush competitors and monopolize the industry. They did this despite the fact that Cooper’s centrist health care approach was entirely consistent with his overall philosophy.

At one meeting in the West Wing, a source told Broder and Johnson, Clinton “kind of got this evil look and said, ‘We’ve got to do something about this Cooper bill. We’ve got to kill it before it goes any further.’ ”

Clinton denounced the Cooper plan as “dangerous and threatening.” Deputies were dispatched to Tennessee to attack his plan. Senator Jay Rockefeller said that Cooper is “a real fraud. I hope he doesn’t make it to this place.” According to Newsweek, Clinton brought an aide with a video camera to a meeting with senators and asked the senators to denounce Cooper on the spot.

The Clinton effort backfired. It temporarily raised his profile back home. Her health care reform failed, too. She says she’s learned the lessons from that failure, but she remains icy toward Cooper. Her health care memos, including a three-page memo drafted in preparation for her meeting with Cooper, have not been made public by the National Archives.

Moreover, the debate Clinton is having with Barack Obama echoes the debate she had with Cooper 15 years ago. The issue, once again, is over whether to use government to coerce people into getting coverage. The Clintonites argue that without coercion, there will be free-riders on the system.

They’ve got a point. But there are serious health care economists on both sides of the issue. And in the heat of battle, Clinton has turned the debate between universal coverage and universal access into a sort of philosophical holy grail, with a party of righteousness and a party of error. She’s imposed Manichaean categories on a technical issue, just as she did a decade and half ago. And she’s done it even though she hasn’t answered legitimate questions about how she would enforce her universal coverage mandate.

Cooper, who, not surprisingly, supports Barack Obama, believes that Clinton hasn’t changed. “Hillary’s approach is so absolutist, draconian and intolerant, it means a replay of 1993.”

He argues that her more coercive approach would once again be a political death knell. No Republican will support it. Red state Democrats will face impossible pressures at home. It’s smarter to begin by offering people affordable access to coverage and evolve from there.

Cooper is, of course, a man who has been burned in the past. But it is legitimate to wonder if adults can really change all that much. A defter politician would have reached out to Cooper and made an attempt to address the concerns he represents.

[saltpoint]

6. All three of your possible choices -- and the other 5 original announced Dems

as well -- would be just fine for Supreme Court picks.

All would be very good to excellent chief executive-types who could run the shop.

We'd likely see health care reform -- who knows what form exactly -- out of any of the Democratic administrations.

The Right isn't going to like any of our people. The fundie Right is REALLY not going to like any of our people. So to hell with them anyway!

If there's to be a reversal of the bad crap Bush et al visited upon us, its route is through the 111th Congress. So for me, a vice presidential choice is entirely crucial. We almost have to guess which veep nom our candidates might choose.

If you feel HClinton would pick someone who could steer key legislation through the 111th Congress, she's a reasonable choice. Same for Obama. If that's too iffy a zone for speculation, Edwards makes sense because it still brings an assertion of his core tenets from his campaign to bear on whoever eventually is nominated.

[mzmolly]

23. An excellent point.

If there's to be a reversal of the bad crap Bush et al visited upon us, its route is through the 111th Congress. So for me, a vice presidential choice is entirely crucial. We almost have to guess which veep nom our candidates might choose.

Thanks OC. :hi:

[saltpoint]

42. hey mzmolly, hi right back to ya & all good wishes. You have GOT to be

one of the most informed voters in the country.

Give 'em hell! :hi:

[mzmolly]

44. Thanks OC. Backatcha!

"Give 'em hell!"

I hope we're sitting here one year from now chatting about our newly elected Democratic President! :pals:

[cali]

8. go with your gut. It sounds like it's with Hillary

so maybe that's your best bet.

[mzmolly]

21. Not at all.

My gut has been with Obama after Edwards. :hi:

[writes3000]

9. In my opinion

Barack Obama is better positioned to appeal to all kinds of voters. I support the politics of Obama and Clinton almost equally. But what I love even more is the philosophical shift Obama is challenging our country to move towards. To be better, to be inclusive, to keep the American dream close to our hearts. People have been so disillusioned with politics because they have been missing the greater, emotional connection to our country's belief system.

And on top of all of that, I think Barack is the BEST candidate when it comes to being a true ambassador to other nations. It's no coincidence that tens of thousands are rallying to hear Obama speak. He is striking a deep, deep chord with Americans all across the political landscape.

Good luck with your choice. Both candidates are great, great people.

[judaspriestess]

24. you are one of the very few opinions I have read on here

who states their Obama support with a depth that made me see your point of why he's your guy.

Thank you.

Best wishes to all the candidates. If I was able to vote I'd probably go Clinton. I am an Edwards supporter and Hillary Clinton is my second choice. In short, I know what I am getting with her, I like her and I would love to see a woman president over another man.

[mzmolly]

28. Thanks, excellent considerations.

:hi:

[ginnyinWI]

41. Obama majored in Int'l Relations as an undergrad.

I just found this out. That says that he's been interested in Foreign Relations for a long time.

[soleft]

10. I went through a similar process as you

I was an Edwards supporter tho leaned toward Obama, was swayed back toward Clinton during the last debate because of her obvious mastery of the issues, her strength, her toughness, and what began to show through to me, her humanity.

But then they got to the IWR and she couldn't explain herself in away that a) did not insult intelligence b) allowed me to forgive her for that vote. And her support of the Iran resolution only exaserbated what looks like a major foreign policy weakness.

I think the US needs to repair its relationship with the world. I think Obama may be able to do a better job at it.

[mzmolly]

30. I think those who have made this point, have a point.

Thanks. :D

[no name no slogan]

11. I'm going "Uncommitted" tonight

Both candidates fall decidedly short on the issues that matter to me most. Therefore, neither one gets my primary vote.

Since I'll be voting straight Dem in November, this is my only time to cast a protest vote.

[polichick]

12. imo we MUST win in order to avoid the DRAFT that McCain will ask for...

So it boils down to who can beat McCain ~ imo that's Obama, not only because of his momentum but because he offers a clear choice, a very different approach to foreign affairs from McCain's old-school view that will be appealing to a broad range of people.

[sandnsea]

13. Vote your aspirations, not your fears

If there was anything the Clintons could bomb him with, they would have and you know it. He's vetted. THEY aren't. Do you have any idea how many scandals are out there waiting for them, all over the world?? If that's your only concern about Obama, it's no concern at all.

We are the people we've been waiting for. If we don't grab hold of this opportunity, it may never come again.

[Coexist]

14. when I see a movement - from people who have been

pushed to fear and hate each other - to contacting each other with glee to tell them they are on the same side now - the side of this country, I can't ignore it.

My kids are engaged in politics now. My Republican friends are excited.

We may not agree on the details, but we know we can find a way to work together now to figure it all out - we don't have to destroy the other side.

Barack Obama did this.

[mzmolly]

32. Very nicely stated.

Thank you.

[Pirate Smile]

15. I thought George Lakoff's take on the difference between the two was very interesting.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-lakoff/what-counts-as-an-issue_b_84177.html

[calmblueocean]

25. This is the essential argument of the campaign.

You should check out this as well: http://s3.amazonaws.com/truth/4obama.mov

[mzmolly]

36. I have a great deal of respect for Lakoff.

Thanks.

[FrenchieCat]

16. Obama as President says to the world, we live by the values we preach---

Hillary as President says to the world; why are we not suprised that power and connection in America is everything.


Obama changes foreign policy just by standing there.

And it lets every child in the entire United States know; you too can aspire to be whatever you want to be.

[BlackVelvet04]

19. Why? Because of his Muslim ties?

It's that what you are insinuating?

How about we let every young woman know she can aspire to be whatever she wants to be?

[BlackVelvet04]

17. Obama hasn't been vetted....

YET. If he wins the nomination the republicans will pull out the big attack dogs and then what? There's a lot of stuff out there waiting to bite Obama in the ass. Obamatruth.org is just a small example. I'm not saying it's true but it's what's going to be used and I don't think he's ready.

We lose this election and we'll have to depend on dreams to see the whitehouse for a long time to come. We've waited for 8 years to get the republicans out of the white house and I'm not willing to entrust that job to a rookie.

[butterfly77]

18. Exactly, what I wanted to know...

I heard that Michelle obama said something about it this morning is there a video of it. If she feels this way how will they bring the party together.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

20. Voters over 60 don't "get" Obama. They will vote for McCain.

They know the Clintons and they like them.

[cd3dem]

27. that is what my friend who works with seniors says... sad but true...

and old people vote! if he had lots of experience they might get past it! but he admitted he did drugs and smokes... old people don't like it... and they believe everything they hear, including the Muslim emails and the Hussein name will freak out the over 60 crowd...

you can vote your heart but the truth is Obama is an unknown...

Hillary and Bill raised a good daughter in Chelsea... that is how the old people are...

[Yael]

22. Go with your gut

and vote the party in November.

:hug:

[ginnyinWI]

26. Obama wants to fix our broken government

He wants to do away with "politics as usual" where the people don't have a voice but the lobbyists do.

He is committed to transparency--no back room deals, secrecy. Expose everything to the light of day.

He favors going for the practical, pragmatic solution, whether or not it comes from the left or the right. A far cry from the highly partisan style of governmental control we've seen in the White House and Capitol Hill these last two terms which divides people.

Highly partisan people on the left call this selling out, but I call it good government.

[mzmolly]

45. I love his stance on lobbyists and transparency. I think this is unique.

And, it's important.

[paulk]

29. I have been drawn to Hillary

because of her command of the issues. Even when I don't agree with her, I know where she stands. I know that she has done an admirable job as NY's junior Senator and I believe she is the one most prepared to be President. That, in a nutshell, is why I support her.

Obama I'm not sure about. He's an inspiring and charasmatic man - but, that's not enough for me. Obviously others feel differently.

One thing that has been bothering me, though, and it does tie in to your post - Obama hasn't been vetted. The press has given him a free ride - according to the nonpartisan study that's been posted here a few times, Obama's mentions in the MSM are 87% positive. It's clear that the media wants him to be the nominee.

It's also clear, to me at least, that the Republican Party wants him to be the nominee. There's even an example posted in this thread - an editorial by David Brooks. When David Brooks, Bill Bennett, Peggy Noonan, etc., etc. start saying nice things about a Democrat, you've really got to ask yourself why.

The Clintons have beaten the Republicans twice. Since 1980, they are the only Democrats to have beaten the Republicans for the White House. I doubt that this fact has been lost on the Republican Party.

[Nutmegger]

31. I'm now between Hillary and Uncommitted.

I thought a nap would help me think, but it didn't. I'm still here pretty much undecided.

Maybe when I face my ballot, I'll know for sure.

[Tom Rinaldo]

33. All I would say is be doubtful about claims...

...that Obama would be a stronger candidate against McCain than Clinton. Obama will have a weakness matching up against McCain on perceived experience. Hillary's negatives with the electorate are substantially already priced in. Obama hasn't faced a harsh negative campaign yet, etc.

So I think you should vote for who you really think would make a better President.

[Writer]

34. Here's a comment for Clinton.

Both candidates speak of change. However, to enact change the president will need to know how to pull the right ropes in order to earn Congress' support.

I think Hillary Clinton is the better person for that very important job. Obama speaks change, but Hillary will deliver that change.

I KNOW how hard it is! The best of luck to you.

~Writer`

[ginnyinWI]

43. Obama has spoken to that

He believes that if you get the people behind an initiative, the legislators will fall in line too--because their constituents are watching. That's the way government is supposed to work! But we've forgotten. Now it's all power plays--and that's what Obama wants to change.

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. This will be our best chance to get a Health Care Plan enacted and Hillary

has a GREAT plan. Everyone will be covered regardless of income. IMCPO, she's our best bet at getting this done. She's been there before and knows how it works and how to navigate the system. She can make it happen! On the foreign policy issue, IMCPO, she will take a much different approach than a man would. She'll be more compassionate, have more empathy and THINK before she acts. I certainly wouldn't worry about her being too aggressive. I think it's time to see what a woman can do, for a change. The men haven't done a real bang-up job to date.:(

Bill? I wouldn't worry about him. She can keep him busy talking to our foreign friends...who LOVE HIM, btw. He'll be an asset, not a hindrance.

Obama is a TRUE roll of the dice. Why isn't the MSM asking questions? I know why....they already have the answers and are just waiting for the GE. THEN we will find out everything we wanted to know about Barack, but were afraid to ask. I guarantee they are perched and ready to jump.

Hillary has the experience. She knows the system. She's taken how many years of incoming fire from the RW haters? She has fought them all and is still standing! There's nothing she can't take. She's a strong woman and it felt so good to vote for her.:)

[David Zephyr]

37. Vote your heart or even for Edwards if he is still on your ballot.

I voted for Howard Dean in 2004 even though he'd conceded by that time to John Kerry. I felt good doing so.

I'd love to have you join the movement with us and support Obama. But Hillary is a good choice, too.

I support you.

[mzmolly]

39. Thanks David.

That's very kind of you. :hug:

[Maddy McCall]

38. I'm was an Edwards supporter. I'm supporting HIllary.

Here's why I think that you should support Hillary, too:

Because in Primary 2004, you and I were at awful odds as Clark/Dean supporters :rofl: . This year, should you support Hillary, we'll send the internets into spaz by backing the same candidate!

:rofl:

:toast: to you, regardless of whom you choose.

[mzmolly]

40. LOL

:toast: backatcha Maddy.

[antigop]

46. Hillary is DLC -- 'nuff said. n/t

[Straight Shooter]

47. Obama did not vote on the MoveOn condemnation nor on Kyl/Lieberman

Hillary voted against condemnation of MoveOn's ad featuring General Betray Us, citing the First Amendment gives them the right to publish the ad.

Kyl/Lieberman is a source of much contention for supporters of all candidates. McCain was not present and did not vote for Kyl/Lieberman. This will make him look weak to Republicans. Hillary voted for it, after it was modified somewhat. This gives her an edge against McCain, as Iran is a serious subject, thanks to bush's saber-rattling.

Obama did not vote on the MoveOn condemnation nor on Kyl/Lieberman. He spoke against both, but did not commit to putting his vote on the record. I want someone who is willing to put their money where their mouth is and make a commitment on the record.

[OzarkDem]

48. Obama's not DLC, he's AEI

I have some real concerns with his campaigns connections to one of the most conservative think tanks in DC.

They make the DLC look liberal by comparison.