Rationing Healthcare

[busymom]

I'm just wondering how you all feel about this topic. Since we're all debating the merits of universal healthcare and the european model....

If you are 93 in America and have cancer, you will get chemotherapy....even if you are in renal failure and have end-stage dementia at the same time. As a matter of fact, you will spend more in the last 2-4 weeks of your life for medicare than the entire time that you have medicare and use it....We are not believers in allowing Americans to die with dignity.

Contrast this to Europe where...if you are 75, you won't be put on dialysis...you won't be given chemotherapy beyond perhaps some palliative care. You will be allowed to die from pneumonia if you are living as a vegetable in a nursing home.

This is not meant to debate the merits of Obama's or Clinton's healthcare plans. I'm just curious about how you feel about rationing healthcare...because regardless of the form that universal healthcare takes in this country, rationing will have to eventually fit into it to save costs.

[DesertFlower]

1. i think the europeans have it right.

#1 i would never, ever under any circumstances have chemotherapy or radiation, but that could be another topic.

if i'm 93, let me die. please don't poison my system and if i have dementia i don't want to live either. my mom has it and it's terrible.

i'm probably going to get flamed.

[busymom]

5. sweets

I was diagnosed with cancer when I was pregnant with my youngest child...and I had to make that tough choice....I ended up having chemotherapy during my pregnancy....and 2 years later, both my daughter and I are healthy. When it comes down to it, chemotherapy beats the alternative, which in my case would have been death in a short matter of time. I had a tumor wrapped around the top of my heart and vena cava.... Up until that point, I didn't even drink coffee when I was pregnant. Not every choice is easy, I agree.

[NC_Nurse]

11. Your case is completely different than those you presented.

You are not elderly, not demented, and there was a good chance for your survival and
quality of life.

[busymom]

12. I was responding to sweets comment, not rationing

She's right that it could have been a separate thread.

[DesertFlower]

13. i've always felt the way i do.

3 years ago i had a breast cancer scare. when i told my husband i said "chemotherapy and radiation are not open for discussion".

i'm glad you and your daughter are both well. everyone has to make the choice that's right for them.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. Amen!

I won't deny chemo and other "cut and drug" treatments for those who want them. But I never want anyone to be forced to take these treatments if they don't want to.

[jwirr]

29. I think that we will find that more patients and their families will opt

to end treatment, when an illness is obviously terminal, in the future as we reach a different generation. Those who are in their nineties now are not thinking about overpopulation, lack of resources, and death with dignity. They come from a different era. I am 67 years old and there is a point at which I will opt out of all medical care except pain control and feeding. BUT as long as my mind is working and I do not have a terminal disease I want to live.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. No flames-applause here

If I find that I have a life threatening illness, I will use alternative treatments.

[busymom]

9. I will use treatments

that are empirically proven to have a curative potential.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. Fine

I won't stop you. Don't try to stop me. If I die without using chemo and cut and drugs, it means I haven't spent money (possibly your money if I'm on Medicare) on it, so your treatment costs won't go up. Of course, if I live, you can say the same thing. :)

[DesertFlower]

17. me too.

i feel like i would need to build my immune system to fight the disease, not tear it down.
:toast:

[Oregone]

2. Im not well-versed in the practice of rationing,

But despite that we suppossedly do not do it here (except for those who are uncovered), we still have lower life expectency and rate the lowest for preventable death amongst those nations.

Quite a startling contrast.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

3. Excuse me? I'm European. Where exactly did you pull this out of?

Some right wing extremist website? Huckabee's website? I can't imagine you got it from actual factual statistics from the WHO. I don't understand how people who don't know sh*t about how Canada's and Europe's excellent health care systems work, can possibly come up with this kinda of crap. Did you ever bother to see Sicko? And NO, if you have no money, you will not get treated in the U.S.

This is really amazing.


:banghead:

[busymom]

6. Having lived and worked in the german/british

healthcare systems.

I can guarantee you that if you are 90 in germany and have dementia and cancer that you will not be given curative care.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. I don't know about Germany, but I do know about the French, Canadian and Spanish systems.....

.. all will give you care. You need to provide everyone with a specific example that brought you to this conclusion, otherwise people will not know what you're talking about. Be specific.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. I feel that the quality of life is as important as merely life

If there is a valid reason for keeping someone alive, then keep them alive. If there is no hope of recovery--well, then opt to do what my uncle did. He went to hospice, was without pain, and died within a week. He didn't want to live on as a vegetable.

[NC_Nurse]

7. We all die. Americans have a hard time accepting it.

If you want to pay to keep your family member alive and they don't have a document expressing they're wishes, I bet they'll let you.

[Bluerthanblue]

14. medicare????? only if you HAVE medicare- 93 or 60 it doesn't

make any difference.

Now, if you are talking Medicaid- then you are correct.

But those who are eligible for Medicaid are not people who can afford to pay for end of life care anyway.

We don't have to be bound by the same restrictions as other nations choose- We can work towards ones that are agreeable to the majority of Americans.

Some kind of basic care should be everyones birth right.

IMO

peace~

[rubberducky]

15. Will we start rationing food, air, water??

WTF?? Some folks don`t seem to get the fact that we`re all just folks. Young, old, black, white,brown, gay, straight, bald, short, tall, conjoined, deaf, blind, who do we leave out?? I think that is God`s decision, but as long as we are here we MUST help each other outWhat the hell good is life if we can`t help out the living, no matter thier "status". These kinds of posts make me sick.

[busymom]

20. I think you might be missing the main idea?

Should we be investing healthcare dollars in futile care because...we can?

My grandmother died when she was 86. She had Alzheimer's disease, cancer and started sufferin multiple mini-heart attacks. The doctors wanted to perform the most aggressive treatments for her heart...including surgery. When my mom said that she wanted to take her mom home on hospice, there was outrage that she wouldn't do everything possible. Everything possible for what? To ensure that my grandmother suffered until the bitter end? Fortunately, my mom was able to bring her mother home on hospice and she passed peacefully soon after that at home...instead of being in the hospital and experiencing more procedures that did nothing but line the pockets of the cardiologits.

I do think we have to consider the rationing of healthcare. As our elderly population continues to grow and we are disucssing funding healthcare for everyone, we will have to cut costs somewhere. It is a freaky thought...I admit it.

[rubberducky]

26. If you have a 1 year old child that has NO chance of living past 5.

Do you help her out of her misery??Cut the losses?? Or to do you do everything that is humanly possible to keep this child alive, praying for a miracle? Financially, we all know the best bet, but what would YOU do.YOU get to be the giver or the denier of life. Is it about the bottom line or the child? YOU DECIDE.

[Emit]

19. Bill Clinton mentioned this when I saw him speak

He gave similar examples in response to a woman who asked about certain coverages being denied by Medicare/Medicaid.

[busymom]

22. people believe

that everything can and should be done no matter what the cost...if someone is still living.

But at what point is it money ... thrown out the window? I mean that's a sad thing to say, but if I'm 93 and have end stage cancer, dementia and am slipping into a coma. For the love of God...let me GO!

[drm604]

21. If medicare doesn't currently ration healthcare then why would it do so if it covered everyone?

It currently covers the oldest, and therefore sickest, part of our population. Why would adding in the healthier part of the population (and taxing them to pay for it) make rationing more necessary then it is now?

And keep in mind that current private insurers do ration care. So rationing, if it occurred, wouldn't be a new thing, and it wouldn't be unique to universal single payer insurance.

And also keep in mind that we currently ration in a most indefensible and draconian manner. We base it on who can pay or who happens to have an employer that provides it, and we exclude millions based on these things.

In any case, I question some of your assumptions. Do you have any cites to prove what you say about Europe? Do you have any cites to prove what you say about what happens to the 93 year old in the US?

And what about Canada? What kind of rationing is done there and how does it compare to what is currently done in the US?

[busymom]

23. One Word: COST

Healthcare is expensive and medicare can barely sustain itself as it is....

My citations are based on my own personal experiences as a healthcare provider. They are not necessarily universal or applicable to every city in every State in America or area of Europe.

[drm604]

25. Your Citations

My citations are based on my own personal experiences as a healthcare provider.

In all respect, I think you need to look up the meaning of the word "citations".

[Solon]

24. Unless you can prove your third paragraph, your statement is full of BS...

Seriously, I'm trying to figure out what the fuck you are doing on this board. :wtf:

[RC]

27. She is a Hillary supporter and

it is dawning on me that Hillary supporters are a bit reality challenged. I suspect because they are a little too far to the right in their views.

[Solon]

28. The only thing I support is reality on the ground....

and I oppose bullshit, and I really hate ancedotes like hers and others that tout the "superiority" of our system. Concern trolls, like this one, are the worst.