Bill/Hillary Clinton's anti feminist presidential campaign

[grantcart]

Hillary and Bill are playing good cop and bad cop. Bill states he will go door to door to every church in South Carolina, that he will do everything possible to get Hillary elected. Bill is leading the charge on how unfair the Nevada caucuses are. Bill leads the attack on Obama as being "the greatest fairy tale he has ever seen"

Hillary does not seem to be in charge of this campaign. Rather than seeing a strong woman in charge we see a family project.

For those who will now try and make a lame comparison with Michelle and Elizabeth please the scope and nature of the roles could not be more different. No one is scratching their heads wondering who is in charge of those campaigns.

Who is in charge of this campaign Hillary or Bill? Isn't Hillary tough enough to take on the big issues or does she need to have her big guy always helping her out?

This is a campaign that is advancing the interests of a team, a family - it is not showing the country that a strong independent woman can win the nomination and lead the country.

Ironically because of the need for a Former President to have such an incredibly high profile role, Hillary is in fact undermining the feminist role model you might have hoped for.

Watching Hillary run for president the message for my daughters is they too can run for president, if their husband is a former presidnet. If I was a Hillary supporter I would have preferred her running her campaign, sending Bill off to an island and losing than this spectacle.

[Warpy]

1. I have to admit he's doing more harm than good at this point

It's one thing to introduce her at an event and smile approvingly at her during her speech. It's another to try to relive his own glory days, which is partly what seems to be happening.

He needs to butt out. He needs to support her with his presence, but he needs to make sure there are no questions about who the candidate is.

It just might be impossible for him to swallow his pride and defer to his wife when policy questions are asked.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

17. She's winning.

[grantcart]

29. No she is a front runner

Winning is when she is getting close to 51% of the delegats needed. Being a front runner unfortunately means that if she does well she is doing what is expected and if she goes down, even a little bit she is slipping, her support is eroding. etc. I know that it is unfair but every campaign in the last 30 years has had to face it. Being the front runner this early is not a great advantage. Adk Guilliani etc.

[JackORoses]

71. you should change your avatar to a Yea vote on the IWR

[MNDemNY]

2. Jeez, Buchanan said the same thing on TV last night.

[grantcart]

3. Didn't see it but even a broke clock is right twice a day

[MNDemNY]

7. Right, seems you memorized it quite well.

[grantcart]

12. I was watching football yesterday so sorry I missed it

but are you saying it cannot be true because he said it?

[MNDemNY]

16. No, I am , however, accusing you of spewing RW B.S.

Your practically quoting him, and I am skeptical of your claim of ignorance.

[grantcart]

19. so you think that Bill Clinton

taking over the campaign with all the statements about what he is doing to get Hillary elected is a healthy and welcomed development.

[Jai4WKC08]

30. Bill Clinton is not "taking over the campaign"

But sure, it plays to the stereotype of a weak, dependent woman for you to say so.

Bill is widely recognized as one of the most effective politicians of a generation. He's also extremely popular among Democrats. Hillary would be stupid not to use his talent, his advice, and his voice.

And in fact, there are people (I'm going to assume you're one of them) who are purposely trying to convince the rest of us that that the Big Dog is hurting her campaign, so that her other advisors can get her to push him aside, thus taking away one of her biggest assets.

[grantcart]

35. Bill Clinton is the greatest strategist in the democratic party

But he also has a narcissistic streak in which everything seems to be about him.

Are you really looking forward to a campaign with Bill going door to door and Bill doing a reality check on Obama and Bill making sure that his little woman is being treated right and Bill making sure that the media is fair on his wife and Bill was against the war from the begining and Bill couldnt have been a great president without his wife


or


wouldnt you prefer a campaign that is about Hillary? with Hillary getting advice from who ever she wants to

[Jai4WKC08]

42. I want Hillary to make the best use of Bill she can

And unlike you, I don't think any less of her for it.

Fwiw, I don't see any "prominent feminists" complaining. Just GOPers and you. As my pre-feminist (but full-time working) mama used to say, you're known by the company you keep.

I really don't need a man to tell me what I want anyway.

[grantcart]

46. so if a prominent feminist complains

the point will be made and if a woman tells you what you want that is fine.

So much for strong independent women actually thinking for themselves? Now if your arguement had weight I would engage it, respect it and concede the points that made sense.

What your saying is that my argument doesn't make sense because of my genitallia.

Isn't that what real feminism is all about?

[Jai4WKC08]

55. So now you have the balls to tell me "what real feminism is all about"?

And yes, I recognize the irony of that subject line. It's intentional.

You know damned well I didn't say anything about needing a prominent feminist or a woman to tell me anything. You are the one that brought that canard. And it pure unadulterated bullshit. Just like your argument, regardless of what's hanging between your legs.

In other words, fuck off.

[grantcart]

68. you are the only one that

mentioned "prominent feminist"

again you have failed to meet the point


Is it or is it not better to have the campaign focused on Hillary. What makes it so difficult for Clinton robots to accept what is patently obvious to everyone


Profanity is the last refuge of a weak mind

[Jai4WKC08]

69. Wrong again

Your #15:
"this campaign is being hijacked by her husband and I am sure prominent feminists are cringing."

I answered your supposed point in my first reply. She's running her campaign. He hasn't taken over. It is sexist to say he has, like she's not strong enough to be calling the shots. It's also a rather lame but obvious attempt to further the idea that she ought to move him off the stage, as tho he isn't a great asset to her campaign. That's one reason all the anti-Hillary forces, (Obama, media, RNC, etc) keep trying to make Bill look bad by cherry-picking what he says and taking them out of context, in some cases outright lying about what he obviously meant.

Finally, if you don't like profanity, you don't belong at DU. Or at just about any other political blog, right or left.

[MNDemNY]

47. Couldn't care less, I'd like to see both BHO and HRC brushed aside for a real Democrat.

On edit, have you withdrawn your denial?

[grantcart]

52. was this a reply to post # 19 or post # 30?

[MNDemNY]

53. Take your pick.

[grantcart]

56. Well post # 19 was never edited

My point is not about supporting for or against anyone. My point is that a Hillary campaign should be about Hillary. When a Hillary campaign starts to be taken over by Bill it hurts Hillary and in the long run undermines the long term feminist interest. I actually thought this would be a rather non controversial statement that everyone, including those that are strong Hillary supporters would have accepted as being reasonable.

If you had another point I apologize for not getting it.

[JackORoses]

72. calling something right wing is a cop out

debate the points the OP brought up or don't

Calling something a Right-Wing Talking Point only says that you aren't intelligent to defend your positions on the issues.

[Cha]

22. Nice of you to accuse a DUer of

lying and protecting the clintons' charade..real classy.

[grantcart]

23. Its a classic clintonian strategy

when you have a losing arguement divert and create a non issue.

[Cha]

26. Can't imagine where they picked

it up from and where those they picked it up from picked it up from? :crazy: Does that make sense?

[grantcart]

33. well its true its an old strategy but no one has mastered as well as the Clintons

[Cha]

37. They have the

president thing goin' for them and bill's so-called schmoozer effect..but my hope is people are really getting tired of his worn out ass.

[grantcart]

39. yep the sound you hear is

the great majority of this country moaning thinking Bush Clinton Bush Clinton doesnt that sound like some third world country.

the irony is that Hillary on her own would break the cycle but every time Bill opens his mouth he takes people back into history.

[MNDemNY]

49. Right, any one who disagrees with you is for HRC?

Pull your head out ,as well.

[grantcart]

54. no anyone who doesn't respond on point is in fact a

person who doesn't respond on point.

[Cha]

61. Ya still accused a DUer of lying which

you didn't respond to and it's typical hilary tactics to call DUers "liars".. so you do the math. I don't care who you support.

[JVS]

4. Ofbill 2008

[AJH032]

5. one step at a time

wouldn't you think that a President Hillary would perhaps pave the way for more women candidates somewhere down the road? You have to start somewhere. Besides, wouldn't you maximize your use of an endorsement of an extremely popular former president if you were running for president (husband or not)?

[dkf]

10. Looks like he is pulling the load that is why.

"Woman can't do it without big strong husband."

Blech.

[grantcart]

11. an endorsement yes

but Bill said "I am going door to door to every house and every Church in South Carolina"

This for him stopped being about Hillary. His roles should be 1) limited 2) focused 3) positive and 4)About Hillary and not about Bill


It seems that she cannot control him. How will she control a government.

[terisan]

6. You want Michelle Obama and Eliz Edwards to also disappear for the sake of your dayghters

not being exposed to the message that they can only be First Ladies and not President. Ha Ha

[grantcart]

13. If you think that there is any similarity between the roles of

Bill Clinton and any other surrogate well all I can say is "Give me a break that is the biggest fairy tale I have ever heard".

[terisan]

24. Huh ???? I was responding to your stated concern about role models for your daughters

Possibly you want them to aspire to First Ladydomness" only .

[grantcart]

38. No I want them to be inspired by strong independent women

again I am not suggesting that you change your vote simply that Hillary take over the campaign. Are you suggesting that

having Bill going door to door and Bill doing a reality check on Obama and Bill making sure that his little woman is being treated right and Bill making sure that the media is fair on his wife and Bill was against the war from the begining and Bill couldnt have been a great president without his wife is actually making his wife look bigger.


or


wouldnt you really prefer a campaign that is about Hillary?

[LulaMay]

8. You are giving your daughters that message. Femisnists are proud of HRC, rightly so.

She is a brilliant, accomplished woman in her own right, with many many achievements in a long and esteemed career.

NOW endorsed her, so have prominent feminists and other groups.

We know our own minds, thank you.

[dkf]

14. He should let her shine then...instead he is front and center of all the cameras

and print media.

He is over-shadowing her.

[grantcart]

15. Yes and she has lost control of Bill

this campaign is being hijacked by her husband and I am sure prominent feminists are cringing. I am not suggesting as a Hillary supporter that you should not support her for it just that she sould take control of the campaign and make it about her. Are you really arguing against that?

[DURHAM D]

21. House pucky - feminists are not cringing.

What is wrong with you?

[grantcart]

31. So are you saying that

you are looking forward to a campaign with Bill going door to door and Bill doing a reality check on Obama and Bill making sure that his little woman is being treated right and Bill making sure that the media is fair on his wife and Bill was against the war from the begining and Bill couldnt have been a great president without his wife


or


wouldnt you prefer a campaign that is about Hillary?

[DURHAM D]

43. Why don't you worry about your candidate - not mine.

The Edwards campaign had to pull Elizabeth back because every time she opened her mouth she sounded like a snarky moral high grounder. The co-presidency thing they were running made JE look like a wuss.

She was a problem for the staff and it took awhile for them to get a handle on her, but it was too late. Again, worry about your own problems.

[grantcart]

44. I am not worrying about either candidate

why can't you simply answer the question

wouldn't you rather the campaign was more about Hillary. Why are Clinton supporters so reflexively defensive that they cannot have a reasonable discussion.

By the way while Elizabeth's role was never comparable to Bill's and there never was a question of who was running the campaign, I thought it was unfortunate that her comments got the play that they did. Some of that was planned by the campaign and some of that was taken out of context. However I thought it helpful when she talked about policy and unhelpful when she talked about other candidates.

When we get to the point we are talking about Elizabeth going door to door and Elizabeth a reality check on Obama and Elizabeth making sure that her little man is being treated right and Elizabeth making sure that the media is fair on her husband and Elizabeth was against the war from the begining and Elizabeth couldnt have been a great president without his wife

Then I will denounce her.

What is it about Clinton supporters that they cannot agree to an obvious point that everyone sees, that actually is in their own best interest?

Hillary's campaign will be better served when it is about her and not Bill

[DURHAM D]

48. Ok.

Your whole thingie is a false construct - why respond to drivel?

[grantcart]

51. why don't you make a point?

[JackORoses]

73. he can't. that is the whole point.

[LulaMay]

45. The media is pushing this crud. She is commanding and brilliant.

We cringe at the media sexism, whether it's focusing on him or everything else they do to try and demean her candidacy, from commenting on her appearance, voice, or making remarks that are just short of outright calling her the B word.

The male media contempt at the possibility women could elect a female president is both hateful and predictable. It's too bad you buy into it and promote it when you could be giving your daughters an opportunity to feel proud and elevated from the daily trash they hear about being female every day.

The men on television who call themselves news people sputter and laugh nervously like a bunch of schoolboys, mucking up their words and sentences, they are so consumed by it. They only begrudgingly give her credit after every debate, every primary she's won. They're conduct is laughable and contemptible. It's a spectacle that for many women only confirms how many men still feel about us and that sexism is alive and well.

That includes this latest crud of them focusing on the former Mr. President.

It's had an effect at the ballot box.

I hope it continues to do so, and that women who support her remain strong and refuse to be pressured enough that they change their vote (Stockholm Syndrome).

If that happens, and the ugly spectacle of men taking Hillary Rodham Clinton down is successful, you can take your fair share of the credit for it. Or, you might think of your daughters now and cut it out now.

[grantcart]

57. So when

Bill Clinton gets red in the face and says HE is going door to door and church to church and doing everything HE can to get a win in South Carolina. . .

When Bill Clinton talks about how HE was against the war from the begining . . .

When Bill Clinton talks about give ME a break that this is the greatest fairy tale HE has ever heard

and so on infinit . . .

that is about the male media . . .


This is not about taking Hillary down or even voting against Hillary the simple point is

would this not be better for Hillary if it was more about Hillary and alot less about Bill.


Seems to be a rather obvious point but Clinton supporters seem completely unable to make even the slightest critical comment about their candidate, even when its about a mundane thing about managing the campaign. People make references about the cult like status of Obama followers but in DU they don't hold a Kool Aid cup to the Clinton-bots (or for that matter to many of the Edwards supporters either.)

[LulaMay]

63. Who is covering it? They have all cameras on him. Complain to the media.

The male media.

[LulaMay]

66. Spouses and family members always campaign. The media is focusing on him & angering him.

The media is promoting the lie that he made racist remarks, and Hillary made racist remarks, to the point that the mayor of Atlanta insults him at an MLK memorial. I don't blame him for being angry.

The media both incites it and laps it all up, then follows him and all with cameras.

They're trying their hardest to make him the story.

The Republicans want it that way too, and have already started 'commenting' on it, to try and sideways attack her candidacy.

Other spouses have criticized candidates, and gotten angry, but since they're not a man who was the former President, it isn't fun or 'news' to make a story out of it. It's a blip on their radar screen.

I'm watching MSNBC and their headline is "Obama v. The Clinton's".

You gave your opinion in your post headline. That is readily apparent.

Your 'questions' are disingenuous.

[electron_blue]

28. Ditto that!

[grantcart]

34. So are you saying that

you are looking forward to a campaign with Bill going door to door and Bill doing a reality check on Obama and Bill making sure that his little woman is being treated right and Bill making sure that the media is fair on his wife and Bill was against the war from the begining and Bill couldnt have been a great president without his wife


or


wouldnt you prefer a campaign that is about Hillary?

[electron_blue]

40. She's married to a strong, powerful man. Most powerful women (who are married) are.

It's but one part of the dynamic of being a feminist that many women have to deal with that *most* powerful men don't have to deal with. I've heard the refrain over and over again that so and so's husband helped her become what she is and she is not truly a feminist because she benefits from a partner's help. There are many ways to be a feminist - you seem to push the idea that a woman must do it all alone if she's to earn the feminist mark.

Some of Bill's actions have irritated me in the last week, but I didn't see it as him making sure "his little woman is being treated right". It never occurred to me. That's your take, which is different from mine.

eta: Do you consider yourself to be a feminist? You don't come across as one to me.

[grantcart]

50. I have said nothing

about Hillary or anyone being a feminist or not being a feminist. What I am saying is that the more Bill enters the campaign the smaller it makes Hillary. It should not be about Bill going door to door and Bill doing a reality check on Obama and Bill making sure that his little woman is being treated right and Bill making sure that the media is fair on his wife and Bill was against the war from the begining and Bill couldnt have been a great president without his wife


It should simply be about Hillary. She doesn't have to do it alone, but she has to be in charge.


He can assist her on strategy, he can make speeches. His speeches should not be about him or Hillary's opponents. It should be about the next president of the United States Hillary Clinton (this is a clearly objective statement in which I would expect everyone would agree. I do not support Hillary but if she is going to run then I would like it to be a campaign truly about her. Why are clinton supporters so antagonistic to this very narrow criticism. People talk about the cult like status of Obama's followers but really in DU the most cult like followers are Clinton and Edwards supporters.)

His overwhelming narcisstic behavior undermines Hillary and it makes it look like she cannot control him.

Feminism isnt a label its something you do. I am raising two strong independent daughters. I will leave the labels to someone else.

[electron_blue]

65. Of course you have made statements about feminism. It's in the topic title that you started

for this thread.

Evidently you are more interested in fanning the flames than having a real discussion. This makes me wonder why you came here 2 weeks ago in the first place.

[Sparkly]

9. Peggy? Peggy Noonan, is that you?

:eyes:

[grantcart]

18. So I am assuming Noonan wrote a column with a similar point.

Are you endorsing or refuting the point?

[Cha]

20. Well stated but if you see

this stuff goin' on then the locksteppers charge you with "SEXIST!" It's predictably pathetic.

[grantcart]

25. thank you

but ever since I was accused of being a communist in 1972 by the state republican leader I have found accumulating these tags to be kind of an honor. Just as long as my daughters don't think I am sexist I am ok.

[Cha]

32. Right after "Sexist" comes the ugly

one liner hit and runners.

I think these "ist" terms get thrown around too easily but when you're smearin' and jeerin' like the desperate clintons then a whole other can o worms has been opened and I hope it comes to them being so sorry they EVER went that route!

[LostinVA]

27. Ugh --

[stray cat]

36. Bill is a great asset when he talks about issues

he turns me off when he appears like a beligerant bully.

[grantcart]

41. he is great

when he talks about the issues

thats my point.

Hillary isn't great when Bill talks about the issues and this campaign should be about her not him.

The better he is the more it hurts Hillary

The worse he is the more it hurts Hillary

When it stops being about him it will start helping Hillary.

[Cameron27]

58. Hillary Clinton isn't being hurt by Bill,

but this BS is being pushed by RW media and it's coming straight out of Axelrod's mouth. Hillary's the strongest candidate out there, watch the debate tonight and see what happens.

[grantcart]

59. Well actually we are not talking about

the stuff coming out of Axelrod's mouth but the voluminous material coming out of Bill's mouth



So we will mark you down for the "More that this campaign is about Bill the Better it is For Hillary Camp" got it

[Cameron27]

62. Yep,

I'm in the column: Bill isn't hurting Hillary, and if he starts hurting her, Hillary will take him off the podium.

[grantcart]

67. I respect this sentiment

and don't agree with it but unlike alot of other comments it states that she is in charge and she is moderating Bill.

Now if it blows up (and I know again we don't agree on that) and her poplularity fades and she is unsuccessful in getting the nomination because of Bill, we would be in agreement that ultimately it was Hillary's fault.


For me (and I liked Clinton when he was president) I find his involvement unappealing. If Edwards becomes non-viable I probably will go for Obama and the way that the Clinton campaign is being run will be the major factor.

[JackORoses]

74. we watched the debate. she sucked. she was booed, loudly.

[VotesForWomen]

60. uh, feminism is not about women being 'in charge;' it's about equal rights. nt

[grantcart]

64. the question is not about defining feminisim

but a very narrow specific point that is not anti Hillary in the least. Let me make the point again

the more this campaign is about Bill and less about Hillary the more it undermines her and by extension undermines the historical feminist nature of the campaign which shows that a strong independent woman can run for president.

If you are running for president, man or woman, you should be in charge of your campaign.

When he makes the campaign about him and not her he is undermining her. She should take control of her campaign and make it about her.

Off the point but still in the general subject, the more that he talks the more he reminds people we are looking at Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton legacy that the country will not embrace.

Less Bill more Hillary

[PATRICK]

70. He is going to continue

to be a giant presence in her presidency, and can mostly serve politically only as an anchor against her own achievements- and very possibly a LOT of trouble, more than any other presidential family member or spouse.

[Tom Rinaldo]

75. It was nice to see Bill on stage last night saying all the things his poor wife is too meek to say

She really needs to learn how to speak up herself. It was pathetic how she cowered in his shadow behind the podium last night, afraid to say anything that might upset anyone.

[AtomicKitten]

76. Riiight! She was a shrinking violet when she injected Rezco and misrepresented his quotes and votes

Pahleeeeeze.

[Tom Rinaldo]

77. One attack theme at at a time please

Even Goldilocks had to pick one; too weak, too strong, just right. I won't put you down for the latter lol.

[AtomicKitten]

78. And your assertion that Hillary is "too meek" is laughable.

I'll put you down for an advocate that is willing to say anything and I do mean anything to see if it sticks to the wall.

[Tom Rinaldo]

79. It was satire AK n/t