Ronald Reagan murdered more than twenty people I loved

[ruggerson]

Read The Band Played On, read J Everett Koop's autobiography, read up on your history of the AIDS epidemic and then get back to me on Ronald Reagan.

I can't believe I have to even WRITE this on a place called Democratic Underground.

Un. Fucking. Believable.

[Zynx]

1. Don't forget the 100,000s that died in Latin America from his policies.

That's his single greatest crime. For you, the AIDS deaths are personal, but his crimes in the short term were even greater. He was a horrid man and ruined the long term health of the country and the world.

[indepat]

113. Also didn't der Gipper dump tens of thousands off the social security disability rolls without

due process with many thousands dying before they could be properly reinstated? What a swell fella, all heart.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. If there's justice, fairness and an afterlife, may Reagan be burning in hell nt

[LeftyMom]

3. It's the reason I don't have an uncle.

A few years after he died, advances in medication turned a death sentence into a manageable chronic illness. If adequate research funding had been invested in fighting the disease, instead of ignoring it in the secret hope that gay men would just conveniently die off, I'd still have an uncle.

[BenDavid]

20. You and everyone down on Reagan are right. And The Band

pLAYED ON is EXACTLY right about the events and the dates this was happening. Yes, Reagan is responsible.......

Not only that but REAGAN WAS A DAMN RACIST.....AND IF oBAMA FAVORS Reagan over the clinton years just so obama can use the fucking word INSPIRATIONAL then that tells me a lot about the character flaws in that man....Mister obama

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[motocicleta]

9. Can someone explain to me what the hell is going on?

Before I start comparing your grammar to that of folks who frequent other websites? I can see no reason hating Reagan would make anyone, anyone a closed minded idiot, much less ruggerson.

[MadBadger]

12. Obama made a comment today about how influential Reagan was. Instead...

every HRC supporter has taken it to mean that Obama loves Reagan and supports his policies, even though he mentions nothing about supporting what Reagan believes in. Its either faux outrage or people just being stupid. And this is an online message board, its not the business world, so I apologize if I dont go back and replace my your with a you're etc etc.

[LeftyMom]

26. I can't stand Hillary. And Reagan was a sorry sack of shit. The two facts are unrelated.

People can criticize Obama without having their heads up HRC's ass, just so you know. Actually, it's not hard to do, since they both are useless triangulating centrists.

[awaysidetraveler]

147. Hey guys, Obama didn't say this about Reagan, who was a sorry sack indeed.

[awaysidetraveler]

148. And this allegation smacks of Hillary bait.

[FiveGoodMen]

149. !!!

:toast::hi::headbang::applause:

[motocicleta]

33. All right, all right, the search function is my friend, I get it.

Thanks for the apology. I see no need to stoop to poor grammar and spelling, even online.

As for Obama, though: fuck him, and his idiotic attempts to 'unite America'. That jackass couldn't unite Chicago when he was performing the most vital function on his resume, the "community organizer". Something tells me his best 'uniting' occurs when the money folks come around, not when America needs leadership.

So, yeah, he's right, Reagan was a great politician (or at least a ton of serious crap got accomplished on his watch, almost all bad, and he got away with it, both of which do in fact stand in direct contradistinction to Clinton's terms in office), but claiming to reach for that height not only comes across as over-reaching and somewhat laudatory of Reagan, but also of being backhandedly snippy towards the Clintons, which is frankly embarrassing in a guy who wants to be POTUS.

For the record: I am even less a Hillary supporter than an Obama supporter, so don't bother attacking me on that account.

[redqueen]

122. "comes across as over-reaching and somewhat laudatory of Reagan,

but also of being backhandedly snippy towards the Clintons, which is frankly embarrassing in a guy who wants to be POTUS."

Thank you... you put it perfectly.

[EFerrari]

114. Some of us are not Clinton supporters or stupid and are outraged.

Obama has a pulpit right now. He should be able to do better than this regressive cr@p. He has more than two hundred years of influential people to point to. He chooses Reagan? I hope it gets him ten or eleven votes from credulous independents which is why he's working this Reagan angle in the first place.

The problem is we're not as stupid as Obama thinks we are.

[krkaufman]

141. The only thing Obama said that *seemed* to praise Reagan policies ...

... was his comment regarding restoring entrepreneurial spirit. Which makes me think he leans towards deregulated free market policies, rather than reigning-in excessive greed and exploitation.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadBadger]

13. And I am truly sorry about that, but all this Reagan is awful stuff is being brought up...

because of Obama's comment and that is disengenious Bullshit.

[ruggerson]

17. You have no clue

what people experienced during the eighties.

For a Democrat to say that Reagan instilled "optimism" "dynamism" and "clarity" is spitting on the graves on a whole lot of incredible people.

Maybe someone else is being disingenuous.

Me? I'm so angry I could punch a wall.

[MadBadger]

18. Than go punch that wall and maybe that will point you back to reality.

[ruggerson]

27. The reality is that my dead friends mean more to me

than Obama stomping on their graves to get himself elected President.

[Luminous Animal]

31. You really do not understand

how hard people fought against Reagan on so many fronts. The "Reagan Doctrine" was a complete disaster for so many people... from loss of liberty, to loss of life. Idi Amin was "transformational", too (and a good boxer!), but anybody would be a damn fool to bring him up as an example of anything even remotely positive. It was Reagan's policies that brought us here today. A shrinking middle class, rampant homelessness, a crumbling infrastructure, an obscene military-industrial complex, and a Republican party hell bent on world domination.

I hope someday, when the smoke clears, when we the people retake the reigns of our Democracy, that the history books will be rewritten to show the truth of his destructiveness.

[MadBadger]

34. Oh believe me, I completely understand that

I dont like what Reagan has done to this country. What I am responding to is what I consider faux outrage or just completely undeserved outrage towards Obama for his comments of Reagan. Thats the motivation for this thread and it really irks me.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cameron27]

43. yep

[alittlelark]

98. Nice concise reply to utter drivel.

Thanks.

[MadBadger]

100. bleeehhhh

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Luminous Animal]

51. Obama spouted ignorant bullshit..

From Jane Hamsher at FireDogLake (and I agree 100%)

"No, Ronald Reagan didn't appeal to people's optimism, he appealed to their petty, small minded bigotry and selfishness. Jimmy Carter told people to tighten their energy belts and act for the good of the country; Ronald Reagan told them they could guzzle gas with impunity and do whatever the hell they wanted. He kicked off his 1980 campaign talking about "state's rights" in Philadelphia, Mississippi -- the site of the murder of three civil rights workers in 1964's Freedom Summer. He thus put up a welcome sign for "Reagan Democrats," peeling off white voters who were unhappy with the multi-ethnic coalition within the Democratic Party.

One of his first acts was to fire 11,000 air traffic controllers in 1981 -- one of the most devastating union busting moves of the past century. And his vision of deregulation didn't free the country up for entrepreneurship, it opened it up for the wholesale thievery of the savings & loan crisis. He popularized the notion that all government is bad government and in eight short years put in place the architecture for decades of GOP graft and corruption.

There's enough hagiography of Reagan on the right, I don't think Democrats really need to go there. "

[Cameron27]

52. Thanks

I'm glad to see Hamsher speak out on this.

[jefferson_dem]

53. Looks like Hill and Hill were ignorant bullshit spouters as well...

:hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4091086

[Cameron27]

59. That's such a duplicitous joke

to try to compare Bill's formal statement at the time of Reagan's death to Obama's unsolicited comment about Reagan in that video.

[jefferson_dem]

65. You're rationalizing.

They basically said the same thing. Sorry to rain on your Obama hatefest and all...

[Cameron27]

72. No I'm not,

but keep trying to peddle that nonsense. I'm buying Barack's book, which apparently has much more of his Reagan admiration.

[Luminous Animal]

75. Not the same...

it is called statesmanship. It is what world leaders do when other world leaders die. It is also what regular humans do at a wake of someone they don't like very much. They spout soothing platitudes.

[redqueen]

125. The same thing? Remarks at a funeral and flat-out pandering?

Wow.

[redqueen]

124. "There's enough hagiography of Reagan on the right,

I don't think Democrats really need to go there."

She is exactly right.

I don't understand how Obama's supporters can read the outrage as something resulting from 'misunderstanding' what Obama said.

It's not. Not at all.

[krkaufman]

143. fyi... here's a link to Jane's post on FDL...

... should one what to give her some praise.

Obama and Ronald Reagan’s Slipping Halo
By: Jane Hamsher Wednesday January 16, 2008 11:53 am

[Jamastiene]

79. Well, apparently some of you need to be reminded of what

the Reagan years were really like. Your candidate is leading you to wax nostalgic about a time when lots of people died because of Reagan. I wonder what website I am on any more. Obama needs to switch parties so he can be where he obviously would rather be...on the Republican side of the aisle. I just hope he takes the rest of you Kool Aid drinkers with him.

[Bluebear]

35. Heaven knows who THAT "ignored" idiot was.

[ruggerson]

39. He's a little twenty year old fuck

who has no clue what it was like to live in America then.

[Bluebear]

44. In other words, *we* are old, gay and in the way of the BAM.

[MadBadger]

45. Keep on arguing a completely different subject.

go for it.

[Jamastiene]

80. I hope there is no limit to the ignore list on here.

You Obama cultists are testing the limits of quantity when it comes to my ignore list. Go worship Reagan on your own time, not on mine.

[Cameron27]

89. No kidding.

I don't think I've ever been this angry about something posted on DU before, and that's saying something.

[dbackjon]

134. He's joined my ignore list

[LostinVA]

135. I missed it before it was deleted

[motocicleta]

5. Reagan was absolutely horrific, and diverted the course of humanity in many terrible ways.

Someone here spoke positively of him? That's a damn shame.

[avaistheone1]

150. Reagan's disregard for those who had AIDs, those who were homeless, and the mentally ill was

reckless.

Why the hell would Obama want to saddle up with the Reaganites and "their ideas"?

[CyberPieHole]

6. RONALD REAGAN WAS A FUCKING ASSHOLE AND I HOPE HE ROTS IN HELL!

He has blood on his hands for not doing a single fucking thing to stave off the epidemic that came to be known as Aids. If Aids had affected heterosexual white males that filthy bag of shit would have tossed hundreds of millions of dollars toward education and finding a cure...instead he kept silent and lied and told people he was doing something while they cut funding. Reagan was the second worst nightmare to hit the U.S. second only to the asshole in the oval office at this moment in time.

[sjdnb]

7. Reagan was elected to a position he neither had the intellect, experience, or capability

to hold, successfully. He was bailed out by circumstance and 'star appeal'. In other words, he and the GOP got 'lucky' - for a while, and then the 'momentum' of Reagan delivered Newt and GW, screwing the country and the world over royally, and laid the groundwork for crimes against humanity/the undermining of the Constitution/etc. to go unpunished.

[Warpy]

8. I was a nurse in Boston in the late 80s during the height of the

AIDS shitstorm. We hated to hear the words "20-30-40 year old man/woman, pneumonia" from admitting because we just knew. Because one of my coworkers had a cousin dying with AIDS and because we couldn't see treating them like pariahs, we all assumed Hepatits B precautions when dealing with them and dropped the moon suits and masks. We gloved and wore protective gear only if we were coming into contact with body fluids.

One thing I learned during that period is that it was a vicious disease that was killing all the wrong people. Patients would apologize to us for making us work so hard or for their appearance because of the Kaposi's lesions or for any of a dozen other parts of that horrible illness. All we had to fight it was an arsenal of things that were identified only by a series of letters and numbers. Sometimes they bought the person a little good time at home to clear up his/her legal affairs. Most of the time they didn't.

I will never forgive Reagan's neglect of that epidemic and I lay every beautiful life lost right at his feet. He was an evil man, true, pure, unadulterated evil.

There is no way to rehabilitate that horrible man. He destroyed our country and he destroyed a lot of innocent lives within it both by tilting the economy toward the rich, only, and by ignoring such a terrible epidemic.

He's one of the few people for whom I wish I believed in a hell.

[MADem]

28. The disinformation was terrible then, too. I was in and out of the country a lot then

but I remember there was a famous little kid who had it and his neighbors rejected him and were terribly cruel. There was also a woman who was an actress, or the wife of an actor, who got it and she publicized it a bit.

And then there was Elizabeth Taylor with her charitable work, and of course her friend Rock Hudson.

And Reagan did make some sort of remark about how it was God's vengeance against 'sinners' or something along those lines. He sure, rather stupidly, saw a disease as a moral issue--idiot.

[Bluenorthwest]

115. Ryan White and Elizabeth Glasser

Are the people you are thinking about. Elizabeth was the wife of Paul Michael Glasser of Starsky and Hutch fame. She got the virus from a transfusion too.
Elizabeth Taylor, people have forgotten what a brave and selfless thing she did by being the fist major celebrity to take a public stand. She chose work when she could have chosen to do nothing, and she did it out of love of her friends like Rock, poor Rock.
I was there then. In Los Angeles, in the 'biz'. There were heros of great stature, but also villians of historic proportions.

[kurth]

10. People who worship Reagan are ignorant gullible assholes

[ProudDad]

14. ronny ray-gun, like bush

should have been strangled at birth.

The world would have been a much wonderful place without them.

But the real evil are the Corporate Capitalist Masters who created and financed that worthless waste of skin...

The ones who are now creating and financing ObamClintWards...

[AlCzervik]

15. and remember all the mental health cut backs? one of the worst People ever.

[William769]

16. Please tell me you have seen this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4090672&mesg_id=4090672

I made a guarantee in it and I promise to fulfill it.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[William769]

24. I don't belong on DU?

[Barack_America]

19. I don't think that anyone here has argued that he was a good man...

But evil men can often be effective (I hate to say *leaders*)...rulers.

Obama was arguing that Reagan was particularly effective at pushing his policies, not that he was a quality person. Unfortunately, the fact that he was a complete bastard doesn't negate the fact that he was particularly effective at being at complete bastard.

[MadBadger]

22. I'm infuriated at so many people on this board tonight for not being able to see this...

or pretending to not be able to see this.

[midnight]

25. Do you mind explaining what is infuriating you? I know I don't

Like Ron. Reagan's policy's.

[MadBadger]

32. Obama makes a comment on the influence of Ronald Reagan

People here rush to judgements saying that Obama really admired Reagan and thinking that he agrees with his policies and thats just not true. Obama has never said that he agrees with him on anything and this whole thing is just really disengenious

[jefferson_dem]

60. It's really over-the-top.

Nowhere did Obama praise a single policy objective of Reagans. Those who suggest otherwise are being disengenuous...whether they like to hear it or not.

[MadBadger]

70. And Im being portrayed as a Reagan Loving Monster Tonight because Ive called people out on this

Look, the content of the OP is very sad, but the reason for posting it in the first place is just absolutely ridiculous.

[Barack_America]

78. The arguments are getting confused.

Apparently a lot of people around here can't think objectively when they get riled up. And they're prepared to get riled up over anything that could even remotely benefit their candidate. I've been guilty of this myself.

But if Clinton pushes this issue, she'll lose. Most people in this country don't have a realistic view of Reagan. They remember the *gulp* good ol' days. They actually remember him favorably. I'm too young to have a personal assessment, but from what I've read, that makes no sense.

[OneGrassRoot]

153. Hey, Jefferson_Dem and hnmnf:

As Obama supporters, please understand that I (who am NOT anti-Obama...he has been my 2nd choice), am not upset because I believe he agrees with Reagan's policies.

Many of us are upset because he USED REAGAN AS AN EXAMPLE OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN PURE DESTRUCTION.

No, he didn't say he agrees with Reagan. But the fact that he USED HIM AS AN EXAMPLE - with what I believe is political calculation - is what is disturbing.

I really, really want you guys to understand the distinction, and, even if you don't understand or agree - which is totally fine with me 'cause we all have different hot buttons and Reagan isn't a hot button to a lot of people here, I see - please don't confuse it by saying we think he advocated Reagan's policies.

It's the mere fact that he cited him as an example of anything, and in the same sentence dissed Clinton.

It was a political maneuver that I personally feel is ill-advised. Others don't. That's DU.

[jackson_dem]

105. Obama on Reagan and "big government." Pages 156-157

"The conservative revolution Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight--that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing he pie--contained a good deal of truth."

He makes the argument the DLC made about the size, role of government. When people talk of expanding the pie rather than slicing it they are using smokescreens for talking about cutting back on social programs.

[Barack_America]

42. It's pretending.

The blinders that many here wear are frightening.

Is this what 8-years under George W. Bush does to people? I don't know.

[ruggerson]

23. I withheld my judgement on it

until I actually watched what he said. (the video is on Politico).

And frankly I'm more angry at posts like these than at Obama for saying something offensive and stupid:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4090672

[pingzing58]

I'm not responding to Obama. I don't think that any reputable Dem should ever mention the name of

such and evil man who financed right wing regiems that murdered so many poor people in Nicaragua (home his freedom fighters who were nothing but right wing death squads), El Salvador and Chile. It's not about Obama, it's about f*king Reagan and his so called mythological repug legacy when his only legacy is that of death and oppression not dissimilar to that of GW Bush who is a pathological lier and deceiver.

[Barack_America]

49. Unfortunately, Bill Clinton has also spoken...

...of his admiration for Reagan in that, "what an influential politician" way. It's being discussed on another thread. I could try and find it for you if you'd like.

ETA: found the link
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4087488&mesg_id=4087488

[pingzing58]

62. don't i'm in the present and will scold any dem who uses that name.

[Barack_America]

74. Did you scold Bill Clinton when he did? Out of fairness.

It's not as if Reagan suddenly became evil in 2007. He was evil when Clinton made that speech as well.

[pingzing58]

85. I've only been on the DU for less than a year didn't know about it. I hope that all the candidates

have assistants who are reading this forum and taking our outright and justified frustration about using Reagan as a repug hero to heart. So many people were murdered because of his policies in Latin America and now I understand among the HIV community. Again I haven't yet read Obama's comments. I am responding to any Dem's interpretation of the role of the Reagan presidency.

[jackson_dem]

106. What do you expect Clinton to say at Reagan's funeral?

Let's get real. When Carter dies the rethugs will be praising him too even though they hate him. Do you think Bush will be criticizing him at the service?

[Barack_America]

116. So it's okay to change your opinion based on the situation?

I don't find that you feel that way surprising.

I expect Bill Clinton to say what he feels about Reagan. He's a slick enough speaker to know how to make something sound complementary without actually complimenting the man.

[Cameron27]

41. What I hate

is when someone tries to explain what Obama was really talking about, when the video is posted and everyone is certainly able to make up their own minds. There was no reason in hell to invoke that POS's name in reference to anything.

[Barack_America]

56. Unfortunately we don't have the ability to rewrite history to suit our tastes...

...and history says that Reagan was a particulary strong President. As much as I loathe him, I cannot deny him that.

Here's what history tells us:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents

[Cameron27]

82. I don't need a lesson about

the kind of president Reagan was, I lived through the bastard's reign of terror on every progressive action that was started in the 60's and 70's. I was working as an RN, and I saw his damage personally. It's shameful for any Democrat to use that shit's name in relation to anything good.

[Barack_America]

88. Okay I respect that. But your hatred of him...

...(or mine) still doesn't diminish his place in history.

And unfortunately (for both of us), most Americans came away with a different impression of the man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents

[arewenotdemo]

133. respect

I remember (after a point) not having to even think about what my position on any topic would be because every position the Reagan Administration took was 100% hateful, greedy or jingoist.

[Barack_America]

46. Sorry, I'm ignoring that person so I couldn't see the post in question.

Could you summarize or give me the name of the poster (my list is rather long).

Thank you.

[ruggerson]

64. It's a post

entitled: Reagan haters are ticking me off

the OP reads: Who helped end communism? Who tore down that wall? Who brought economic prosperity to America during the 80's? The answer is Ronald Reagan.
Did you see Reagan invade any countries without reason? You people need to wake up and realize that blind partisanship clouds people's judgement.
Ronald Reagan was one of the best presidents the United States ever had. Don't let your hatred towards Obama make you belittle those who served America with honor and lead us to the right path

[Barack_America]

71. Well, that's totally out of line.

Has that person been tombstoned? I can't imagine that any legitimate poster here would write such trash.

That's obviously not how Obama or his supporters feel about the man, you realize that, right?

I can see why you're angry after reading that.

[OneGrassRoot]

155. Holy crap...I've entered an alternate universe. This is NOT DU. n/t

[Bluebear]

30. I will say this, Obama apologists never surprise me.

Nothing is EVER this guy's fault. EVER.

[gmudem]

50. I'm not an Obama supporter

But it's pretty sad to actually be angered by what he said. All Obama did was comment on what kind of leader was and how he represented a significant change. He didn't say the change was good or say he agreed with any of his polices. If you can find where he said he agreed with or liked any of Reagan's policies, you're pulling it out of you know where.

[Luminous Animal]

83. Yes, but Obama also said

that people were fed up with the excesses of the 60s and 70s and that Reagan brought clarity and optimism to his campaign.

Patently untrue. And why I am so pissed off. The so-called excess of the 60s and 70s was the expansion of civil liberties and economic justice. Reagan played on the fears, not optimism, of bigots. He brought bigoted Democrats into the Republican fold and he kept them there by cutting social services and hobbling affirmative action. The hope he offered was a return to pre-civil rights and pre-feminist days.

He was a disaster for the country and his destructive legacy continues to this day.

[Kucinich4America]

84. Hitler was "effective" at being a complete bastard

Hell, he was one of the "completest" bastards who ever lived. But I don't expect to see him praised on what USED TO BE a Liberal message board.

[redqueen]

128. Hitler was efficient. Did a lot of good for his country, too.

Guess why you don't hear people praising his efficiency or ability to unite the German people.

Note that I AM NOT comparing Obama or Reagan to Hitler... only trying to get it through SOME Obama supporters' heads (cause I *hope* not all are blindly accepting this crap) that there are certain people whose bad deeds are so bad that to praise them for the little bit of good in them is pure lunacy. At least IMO.

[ProSense]

29. How Bill Clinton helped

Reagan.

[Bluebear]

36. Another spam post having NOTHING to do with HIV/AIDS, apologist.

[ProSense]

38. It has something to do with Reagan (the person mentioned in the OP), and

Bill Clinton covering for him

[Bluebear]

40. How fucking dare you dishonor the OP with another OBAMA spam post?

[ProSense]

48. How f****** dare you feign outrage because you are obsessed with hatred for Obama! n/t

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

66. I think you said it first, let me check,

yup, you did.

[Bluebear]

67. Go spam another thread with something completely pointless.

[MadBadger]

55. Its just insane here today.

I am now just an awful ignorant twit because I dare defend Obama and call people out on their BS.

[Jamastiene]

68. Obama likes Reagan. We don't need "Reagan Democrats"

leading our party. End of story.

[MadBadger]

73. Prove that Obama agrees with Reagan's policies.

[Luminous Animal]

86. That is not the point...

He's rewriting history just like the Reagan adulators. Reagan did not run an optimistic campaign for America. He ran an optimist campaign for bigots who deemed that the expansion of the social safety net and civil rights were "excesses". Obama mentioned the growth of government. Well, that growth of government was mainly because of the expansion of the social safety net. Reagan successfully characterized that safety net as a support for mythical (black) welfare queens. That's clarity?! That's optimism?!

Fuck! I'm pissed off!

[Barack_America]

91. Well, as I think we've already seen from these primaries...

The campaigns that politicians sell to voters is often very different from the campaign they are actually running.

I have to listen to Obama's comments in more detail. But Obama was a civil rights lawyer. Knowing that, do you think it's even remotely possible that he has this favorable view of Reagan that you all seem to assume he does?

That's very unlikely. But, as a politician, can he find cause to admire his ability to sell his message to this country? I think, yes. He was effective at doing that. I think that's the same thing that Bill Clinton admired in him, his ability to guide this country where he wanted it to go. He guided it in the wrong direction, to be sure, but he did strongly influence the direction it went in. And for any President, a strong influence is their ultimate goal.

[ruggerson]

93. Exactly

To say that Reagan responded to people's desire for optimism, clarity and dynamism is complete and utter bullshit.

Reagan was a monster. Who almost destroyed everything good about this country.

[redqueen]

139. Rewriting history. In favor of republicans.

I don't see how people don't see this as an issue.

[Cameron27]

47. K&R

[HughMoran]

57. Well, at least one of the O-fucking-blivious ones

was properly banished for this vile episode.

[Cameron27]

63. good

[redqueen]

131. That person who was so disgusted with the Reagan bashing

was that the one?

[LostinVA]

138. Yes, teh one who switched candidates two times so he could bash everyone

[EFerrari]

58. So with you. Link to my Reagan Error thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=913617

[pingzing58]

77. Thanks, I didn't realize how many deaths were the result of this eval man's administration. Pity

whose who elected him and gave him the power/permission to cause the death of so many.

[ruggerson]

90. That's beautiful

thank you for linking to it.

I'd forgotten I could still get this angry about it. It's going to be there for the rest of my life, I guess, always bubbling just beneath the surface.

[EFerrari]

96. To absent friends and present company.

:hug:

[LittleClarkie]

61. I think it was how Reagan managed to get elected in a landslide that Obama mostly admires

He's like to find a way to do the same, I reckon.

I don't think it was his policy on AIDS Obama admired.

[Cameron27]

69. He got elected

by being a phony SOB who conned the American public into thinking he was their great big daddy.

[femrap]

76. You're right...Un. Fucking. Believable.

I was living in San Fran in the '80's....Ground Zero. It was fucking horrific. I lost my entire family. I have pictures of people at a party, and I am the only one living today. I fucking hated RR...but he got his comeuppance. But it just didn't seem like enough.

And you're right...people here at DU are defending a man who is admiring RR.

The U.S. of A. is in BIG FUCKING TROUBLE. Barack is to the right of HRC...very much to the right. I doubt he would support Dem women in their fight for Choice.

Do we need to make plans to move to Italy or elsewhere?

[pingzing58]

92. All Dem Candidates need a lesson from us on Reagan, Reaganomics and his foreign

and social policies. His idiocy lead to the deaths of so many of thousands. How can anyone invoke his name with any approval - only an idiot would. All Dem candidates should stop being beguiled by his name and deeds revealing the murderous results of his administration.


edited for clarity.

[ruggerson]

95. This entire subject

has stirred up things in me I don't like to relive. But I will never, ever forget. Ever.

[pingzing58]

97. Thats why I'm so angry at the mention of his name among those us who work for the middle class

and poor Americans.

[femrap]

120. Same here.

RR was the beginning of the end of America. The slide has to stop now.

Take care.

[tangocash77]

81. kick n/t

[ProgressIn2008]

87. Oh god, painful memories there. Reagan was a disease on this nation - no hope or clarity

or optimism there. We lost so many beautiful people, didn't we?

I've heard my own feelings echoed here tonight: I have a hard time hating people, but I spit on Reagan's grave, the loathesome fucker. I don't care if the rest of the country disagrees, any more than if I were a lone voice on any issue of principle. The man was a shitbag.

I can't understand wanting to defend such a vision of "unity." It was like a wave of insanity overcame the country when Reagan laid down his greasy, slouching path to power, leading us to war, death, debt, greed, corporatism and self-absorbed folly... and we are still feeling the blowback today.

[William769]

94. Silence = death.

:cry:

[donheld]

99. Reagan: A wolf in sheeps clothes n/t

[dugggy]

101. You are missing the point ruggerson...

Obama is NOT praising Reagan, he said Reagan CHANGED the country.
Did'nt say for the better. So cool your jets.

[Cameron27]

102. Ruggerson saw the video

and listened to Obama himself, so you cool your jets.

[Bluebear]

103. "Reagan spoke to the failure of liberal government" - Barack Obama

"Reagan spoke to the failure of liberal government, during a period of economic stagnation, to give middle-class voters any sense that it was fighting for them."


YOU cool your jets.

[dugggy]

104. Then why did Reagan get re-elected in a landslide?

Is the country that stupid? I have a hard time believing that.

[jackson_dem]

108. Yes. Bush got 51% of the vote in 2004. People can be very dumb

[DURHAM D]

110. Corporate media control - the Repubs were/are good at it. n/t

[Bluebear]

112. 'Is the country that stupid? I have a hard time believing that.' Answer: "W"

[jackson_dem]

107. Another classic from Obama in his book. Pages 156-57

"The conservative revolution Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight--that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing he pie--contained a good deal of truth."

Sound familiar? This is exactly what the DLC has been saying from the beginning. When people talk of expanding the pie rather than slicing it they are using smokescreens for talking about cutting back on social programs.

[Cameron27]

109. Yes it does sound familiar,

and it's right in line with what Obama's spokesman said on CNN about the "Democrat's disease." He was talking about those "issues" that prevent Democrats from getting elected. Straight out of the DLC handbook, probably verbatim.

[robbedvoter]

127. "Make the pie higher!" said W - growing the pie - Raygun style

Thanks for those quotes - very edifying.
I wonder if people here are aware of the exploding deficit this pie growing created! Clinton balanced the budget - but Bush came to "restore" the pie growing for the cronie pie holes that is.

[IndianaJones]

117. Is it really unbelievable? nt.

[Maven]

118. Because the MESSIAH has spoken

Obama followers will defend anything--ANYTHING--he puts his seal of approval on. That much is clear.

Their cult worship has now grown repulsive and absurd.

[dionysus]

119. c'mon, you know noone here agrees with reagan's policies

quit being dishonest about this

[robbedvoter]

129. Did you see the quotes from Obama's book? Obama believes!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4087189&mesg_id=4087491

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4090801&mesg_id=4092172

[dionysus]

137. sorry, don't see how his analysis of history = embracing RW ideas.

nice try.

[redqueen]

121. *sigh*

:hug:

[robbedvoter]

123. Saw it, remember it, lived back then - totally agree! 18 years old - born AFTER

Raygun - keep this idiocy running. It drives me nuts too.
It's also strategically dumb - as Raygun worshipers will NEVER vote Dem. They have their pick of loonies there. I think Obama is appealing to GOP-ers to vote in the open primaries in the South - - in our primaries that is - against Hillary.

[babylonsister]

126. Well then,

let's just blame all the AIDS deaths on Obama and not be realistic about what he actually said.

I'm sorry for your loss, but this post is ridiculous because of the correlation you're trying to make.
There are more honest ways to show your disapproval of Obama than this.

[ruggerson]

151. No one is blaming Obama for AIDS deaths

that is a ridiculous assertion. I'm not happy with what Obama said, nor am I in agreement with his words about Reagan, I actually find them offensive, but my OP was in response to this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4090672

and all the other posts agreeing with that sentiment.

Sorry, Ronald Reagan gets no pass from me. And no matter how many presidential candidates try revisionist history to tell me that Reagan was responding to the people's yearning for optimism, dynamism and clarity, I, and many others, know the real truth about Ronald Reagan.

[arthritisR_US]

130. 25,000 people died of AIDs before he publicly uttered the word...

if there is a hell, he's there. He was a B rate actor and an F rate President and human being!

[Bonobo]

132. So who disagrees with you?

[BeyondGeography]

136. Sounds like a whole new line of dramatics for the post-McClurkin era

:toast:

[IronLionZion]

140. So you're saying he was influential?

Seriously, our grandchildren will still be feeling the effects of Reagan. Oh yes, he also dismantled our manufacturing, our renewable energy research, plunged us into record peacetime debt, destroyed labor, sold weapons to iran and iraq, helped the Afghan mujahideen, gave our tax dollars to the military industrial complex, etc.

Just because someone is influential, doesn't mean it's a good influence.

[trashcanistanista]

142. I remember. You are absolutely correct.

Shameful indeed.

K&R to keep this on top.

[jzodda]

144. I am going to look up those books

As a child of the 80s I didn't really know about the 80s politics till Reagan's last year or so in office. But that was almost all in foreign policy (travel to iceland, etc) and his nomination of Bush to succeed him. (I was 17 for most of 1988) I knew even less of the aids epidemic except it scared the hell out of me. To be honest I still know very little about the history of the whole thing, beyond that its become more treatable.

I want to know more though and will check out those books.

[1776Forever]

145. Thank you for being open and wanting to learn more.

As a side note here is my story of the Reagan years:

I was a 35 year-old mother of 5 with a disabled husband in 1980. I had little time for politics except to vote and I have always been a Democrat. So when Reagan came into power I had no idea one of his very first initiatives was to take all the disabled off Social Security rolls.

****************************

http://members.tripod.com/~TBMorse/Book17.html

AMERICA'S WAR ON THE DISABLED: 1975-1992:(A History of the Social Security Disability Reviews of the 1980's)

by Tennise Broeck Morse

SECTION SEVENTEEN:

Chapter Forty-Two

Seven months after the disability cutoffs began, Ronald Reagan's Social Security "reviews" finally made the news. Throughout the month of May, if I hadn't been struggling to live without an income, I could have seen the issue played out like a tennis match in the Times.

On May 19 an article - "Cut From U.S. Benefits, Disabled Seek Welfare" by Peter Kihss - appeared in the "Metropolitan Report." "Cut from U.S. Benefits..." began by focusing on the impact the reviews were having on New York State.

The first people cut off from benefits were now "showing up three or four months later on home relief, a welfare program paid for only by the state and local communities." Thirty percent of the first wave of cutoffs were already on welfare, and there were estimates the figure would rise to 40 percent.

***************************************

This caused a lot of people who were taken off to commit suicide. When I went to my local welfare office to get help since we didn't have enough money to survive with 5 children under 12 without my husbands SS Disability check and me with a GED I was told I was lucky because I had nothing! The man told me a lot of people were going to lose their homes and cars and had never had to live on nothing. I had lived on nothing for a long time and ended up going to college the next year on a grant and went to work for the State of Ohio. It was a long hard road and one I would not like to go down again! People who have never had to walk through fire don't know what it is like when their government turns against them. To tell you the truth I never thought it could get any worse then that but it has. I just went through almost going bankrupt with my 38 year-old son who had no health insurance and we had to keep him going for 1 1/2 years before he got his SSI. This country has a hell of a lot to answer for!

I do not hold Obama's comments about Reagan against him. I know the power that these people yield and Reagan was one of the most influential and transformational leaders we have ever had - in the worst way! I feel it was the start of the end of democracy and the beginning of the corporate welfare reform we are in today.

[jzodda]

146. Thanks for sharing that story with me

And its very sad! I know we as a nation can do better too for our people. I just hope we wake up before its too late :(

[bear425]

152. You got it. k/r n/t

[citizen snips]

154. I bought a copy of Failed States

it changed my opinion about Ronald Reagan.