DU's Obamanation shucks and jives with fake outrage

[wyldwolf]

Daily Kos diary on "Shuck and Jive" - no, it's not racist!

As we all know, while talking about the retail nature of Iowa and New Hampshire, Andrew Cuomo said that you can't just shuck and jive at press conferences. Since the phrase has its roots in the black community, some people say that he was engaging in race-baiting. Other people say that the phrase has gone mainstream. The first group responds that they've never heard it used before.

Has it gone mainstream? I did a very quick web search to find examples of the phrase being used. Here are some results:

An article in the Utne Reader, "Shuck and Jive", on the false promise of corn-based ethanol.

In a forum post, it's used to describe Scott McClellan's behavior at press conferences.

"Mr. Shuck and Jive" is the name of a song by Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings.

Mother Jones magazine runs an article called "Upjohn's Shuck and Jive".

A Presbyterian minister named John Shuck in Tennessee has a blog called Shuck and Jive.

Oyster bars like to host shuck and jive nights.

Here's an online game called Shuck and Jive.

Former senator George Allen is described as responding with shuck and jive on a progressive Virginia blog.

Jimmy Buffett uses the phrase in his song "Landfall".

Brian Setzer's music is described as more "shuck and jive" than "flat-out jive".

The town of Urbanna hosts a Shuck and Jive.

Steve Forbes is accused of trying to shuck and jive about a flat tax.

According to the Village Voice, before there was "shock and awe", there was "shuck and jive."

A band named Superdrag also has a song named "Shuck and Jive".

An album called "Blues Shuck and Jive"

Some random blog about finance asks if T. Boone Pickens is trying to shuck and jive.

And many many more.

So what's the conclusion? "Shuck and jive" has long been part of mainstream American English. By far the mostly likely explanation for Cuomo's remarks is that he simply meant "bob and weave" with no racial connotations whatsoever. This is especially true given that his use of the phrase was in the middle of a long answer about the nature of the Iowa and New Hampshire contests, in response to a question that had no direct relation to Obama. Therefore, the court finds Cuomo not guilty of the charge of racism or race-baiting and orders him released from the personal hell in which he's been confined for the last two days.

More seriously, racism is one of the most despicable flaws a person can have. We must be extremely careful and responsible in calling others racists--the damage done can be severe and indelible. It's hard to get your reputation back after being accused of it, and it's unfair to good man and women who mean no harm.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/12/0123/59921/864/435423

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And on Democraticunderground:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=91590
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7129066&mesg_id=7129529

..and other DU threads.

[Joe the Revelator]

1. You're going to use George "Maccaca" Allen to prove that the term isn't racist?

I'm just saying, thats some funny stuff.

[wyldwolf]

2. nope, a "progressive" used it to describe Allen. Reading comprehension, wolsh, learn it.

[Joe the Revelator]

5. I stand corrected, but didn't you yourself say that the "THEY DID IT TOO!!" excuse

doesn't really fly?

[wyldwolf]

27. yes, but you reasoning would only apply if the term was racist and if it had been directed at Obama.

From the context of the transcript, it clearly is not and was not.

[Rockholm]

7. OMFG. You show dozens of examples and...

detractors come up with one opposing example. It is not racist.

[Lerkfish]

73. I always laugh when you guys use "progressive" as an insult, and then

tout your candidate as the most progressive.

logical disconnect.

[TwilightZone]

8. Allen wasn't the desciber, he was the person being described.

If you're confusing a statement as simple as that, you might want to get that jerking knee looked at.

[Zynx]

40. Somebody reads closely.

[Clintonista2]

41. There's Wolsh, showing off his reading skills again!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[rucky]

3. Wikipedia has a different opinion...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shucking_and_jiving

[wyldwolf]

17. no where does the wiki article say it is racist

[rucky]

26. c'mon.

[TwilightZone]

4. To many people, it seems that all words and phrases can have only one meaning.

And that meaning is the only possible interpretation, regardless of context or intent.

Nice summary.

[Hello_Kitty]

6. I'm sure you can find plenty of non-sexist references to the word 'bitch' online

But I'll bet you'd think it was misogyny if someone called Hillary one, wouldn't you?

[Teaser]

9. Just shut it

Both of you piles of freaks have left me utterly cold.

Hilary supporters and Obama supporters have acted like children for weeks now.

You're old enough to surf the internet. You're old enough to post on DU. You should be

old enough not to act like children in a schoolyard.

You are all disgusting.

[leftynyc]

35. Total agreement

I'm disgusted with both sides. When people look so hard for reasons to be pissed, they're going to find them.

[gaspee]

43. Ayup

And not only that, they're going to irrepairably tear apart the Democratic Party.

This seems to be the Rovian master plan - and both camps are falling for it.

Pit the different factions of the Democratic party against each other, stir in a few aggitators and watch the explosion.

[martymar64]

66. Hillary's already divided the party

And as far as agitators goes, I'm writing to one right now.
I hope she pays you well.

[bvar22]

47. Totally agree too.

It is NEVER about Issues or Platforms.
It always seems to be about some pathetic schoolyard whinefest.

This is a Presidential Election....not a contest for Homecoming Queen.

[Andy823]

52. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I couldn't have said it better myself!

[lapfog_1]

10. "mainstreamed" racist remarks

is far more demonstrative of how ingrained racism is in our society than how a phrase has been transformed to a non racist meaning because a lot of people use it.

[MethuenProgressive]

11. The Obama SwiftBoat ran aground on this one.

But that won't keep them from gunning the engines...

[jefferson_dem]

12. Next from Wyld: "The "N-word" is not racist. Black rappers use it all the time."

:eyes:

[wyldwolf]

18. lol!

[martymar64]

67. If WW sees a black man in his lily white part of Atlanta, he locks his doors

They don't even let black people near his neighborhood. They might get lynched.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thunder rising]

14. I'm just thrilled to see the concern and true racial sensitivity

expressed over and over again. It's heart warming.

[Occam Bandage]

15. Come now, you give her too little credit.

You think they could only bait by using unambiguously racist terminology? Clinton's not being racist, and not appealing to racists. Her campaign is hoping to get a reaction from Obama-affiliated black people, so she could paint him as a black candidate instead of a post-racial one. It seems to be working.

[kevsand]

16. Even mainstream terms can be racist in the wrong context.

"Boy" is about as mainstream as a term gets. Call a black male that and see what happens. Just because a term is "mainstream" in its most common uses does not prevent it from being racist in a specific context.

[wyldwolf]

19. right, but it has been repeatedly shown here the quote by Cuomo was taken out of context

[rucky]

29. enlighten us

where's the full quote?

[wyldwolf]

33. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4037571&mesg_id=4037571

[rucky]

48. Well that settles that, then

eom

[kevsand]

36. My personal belief is that the context is irrelevant to a large extent.

Having said that, I believe the explanations of his statement. I don't think that he meant to say anything untoward, or that he was intending to make a racist remark. I don't feel he was intending to demean or belittle Obama.

I do think it was an incredibly stupid choice of phrase in the current situation. Cuomo's much smarter than that, and capable of much better. Like it or not, we have both a woman and an African-American, one of whom will be our nominee. That makes this an unbelievable charged environment, much more so than any previous primary in my memory.

Everything we say, regardless of its immediate context, must be measured and considered in this larger context before it is even said. Otherwise, you end up offending people whom you normally like and respect.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. Here's the thing...

The basic argument here is that a term is racist because a listener is offended by it.

The counterargument is that the you can't determine a speakers inherent racist intent solely by the listeners reaction.

Until this week I had no idea that "shuck and jive" was anything other than synonymous with "bob and weave". Knowing that it is not, a person with benign intent will avoid using it in the specific contexts to which you refer.

The downside of this is that the dictionary describing the words, phrases and idioms which can be used with people outside your own gender/race/economic cohort is shrinking. Is it not at least arguable that this has the effect of discouraging communication among those who most need that communication?

I don't think that Cuomo had ill intent.

[kevsand]

82. I don't think he had ill intent, either.

But it was an incredibly stupid choice of phrase for any intelligent adult to use in a context that includes a black male. And unfortunately, speech can be unintentionally racist.

Case in point: sports mascots that are racist caricatures. The fans and alumni may legitimately feel a sense of time honored awe and respect for the tradition of the mascot; no racism intended. That doesn't always mean that members of the race being portrayed feel particularly honored.

As to whether the universe of acceptable speech is shrinking, as a former communications major I can assure everyone that speech is infinitely robust and resilient. It is a living thing that thrives and grows and constantly expands. The loss of an offensive phrase or two here and there along the way is a microscopic drop in the bucket compared to the wondrously intricate web that makes up human communication.

The complexity of our speech is one of the attributes that clearly distinguishes us from other animals. Like every other tool, we need to use it wisely.

[itsrobert]

20. Also, Obama supporter Larry O'Donnell is calling Edwards supporters RACIST

Will Obama condemn these remarks?

[wyldwolf]

23. ya gotta walk on eggshells when discussing anything remotely related to Obama

[gaspee]

44. Especially when

It seems like there are a thousand sockpuppets signed up in the past month, week, days... it's getting ugly out there. I don't think the party is going to come back together after this primary season.

Too many of the imagined slights are personal.

Too many accusations of racism - too many accusations of voter fraud.

Too many people piling on.

I think the republican machine is at work here and I don't think our party will ever be the same after this election.

To have democrats calling each other out as racists in every single post is getting old. Really old. To accuse Clinton, of all people, of being a racist, is plain over the top.

And the standard disclaimer - I'm voting Edwards, not Clinton. Sigh. I'm getting sick of being accused of being a Clinton supporter, but I'm more sick of the Obama supporters trying to turn this into a "Democrats who don't vote for Obama are just as racist as Rush says they are!"

[Marrah_G]

21. Before this incident I had no clue the term was offensive.

I don't remember ever using the term, but I could see myself using it in what I thought was an appropriate way and all of a sudden finding myself labeled as a racist. With that said, now knowing some people find it offensive, I would avoid it.

Go ahead and flame away if you choose. I am just being completely honest.

:shrug:

One more thing: How often do people use the word witch in place of bitch? Did you know many pagans find that offensive? If you were to use Witch instead of bitch, would you be a bigot, or should I look to your intent in the statement and realize you had no intention of being insulting to pagans? I do the latter- on a regular basis.

[Clintonista2]

37. Nobody truly finds it offnensive. It's fake outrage to be able to label the Clinton camp as racists

[martymar64]

68. Just like hillbots try to label everybody as sexist in a fit of fake outrage

That knife cuts both ways.

[TriMetFan]

87. HI there..

I guess you forgot that some people like to post that if "Hillary gets in the WH. Watch for the Return of Jim Crow."

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Orangepeel]

22. yeah, this helps.

:eyes:

Random examples of people using it as a pun doesn't make it a non racist thing to say.

Cuomo fucked up. Own it and move on. Pretending that there was nothing wrong with the phrase makes it worse.

[jonnyblitz]

24. I learned this morning on DU that "hip" was a racist word

because it refers to "hip-hop". :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[wyldwolf]

25. and don't forget, when Biden said Obama was clean,THAT was racist, too!

:rofl:

[itsrobert]

31. I also heard "Afro" is a racist term because Elizabeth Edwards use it

to describe Obama's hairstyle 20 years ago.

[jonnyblitz]

39. also, "put down the crack pipe" , a phrase I have used often.

some obama person was screeching about THAT being racist also when some other DU posted that phrase.

[TwilightZone]

42. Yeah, that was a good one.

I thought I'd seen it all.

[Mythsaje]

28. Bullshit.

I don't even support Obama and I cry bullshit on this one.

It damn well WAS racist. And trying to spin it otherwise is an act of desperation.

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. This is SO wrong.

This is right up there in N word realm.

In those examples, you have people using the 'shuck and jive' example to point at WHITE men dissembling in the manner of Jim Crow blacks shucking and jiving to fool the boss so they won't be lynched for saying straight out what they think.

Which of those examples is that of whites using 'shuck and jive' in regards to blacks? It's white's about whites, or blacks about whites, or pop references in the white culture.

When it is used aimed at a black man it IS racist, deliberately trying to dredge up that Jim Crow reference.

EDIT:
Oh fuck. I just saw who posted this crap. Taken off ignore 2 days ago. My mistake.

Bye bye.

[spooky3]

This is really helpful. I was not aware of all these usages.

I was in the camp that considered the phrase racist.
I now have more sympathy for Cuomo's position.

Thanks.

[indimuse]

32. thanks for the post... I have been to plenty of Shuck and Jive nite/ Bars in FL..

Unfortunatley I see their are still so many DUER's not Dems...in Denial..or simply BRAIN DEAD!

[BeyondGeography]

34. I'm going to tell my hip black friend on you

[LittleBlue]

38. Wow. White "progressives" telling blacks when they may and may not be outraged.

:puke:

[dionysus]

60. edit- think i mistook your post

[Alexander]

61. I think this person is disagreeing with wolfie's absurd premise.

[knowledgeispwr]

64. Tell me about it!

It's getting old.

I guess the positive thing of Sen. Clinton and Sen. Obama running is a lot of stuff coming out for the world to see.

[martymar64]

70. He's no progressive. He's not even a moderate.

He's a Dixiecrat through and through. He'll talk to blacks as long as they don't presume to think that they are his equals.

[salin]

88. isn't that *special*

says churchlady about the OP.

[Bonobo]

45. So why don't you go on over to a black neighborhood and try it out!

Go do your investigation, I totally encourage you.

I have only one request, please, please, please, bring a video camera and post the results on youtube!

:LOL:

[Lerkfish]

46. first rule of holes: if you find yourself in one, stop digging.

free advice.

[dionysus]

51. he just looks for bigger shovels

[fightindonkey]

49. It Is Not A Rascist Term Today, As Already Proven. Get Over It!

[Bonobo]

59. "Rascist" --- 'nuff said.

[dionysus]

50. i guess you got your sheets back from the cleaners....

:puke:

[wyldwolf]

74. after your girlfriend wallowed in them I had to.

[dionysus]

91. good 'ol lil 23, once again making the deep south proud!

[wyldwolf]

92. good 'ol "no balls to run for office," once again making "progressives" proud!

[dionysus]

94. damn straight Cleetus!

[wyldwolf]

95. darn tootin' Brucie

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

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[vee]

57. Elton John has a song titled "The Bitch is Back" should we infer

that the word b*tch therefore has little if no sexist connotations?

Is this a word that you would have bantered about in serious political dialog?

[Alexander]

58. Wyldwolf: "Obama is Hillary with a penis and a tan."

Nope, that's not racist at all. :eyes:

[Proud2BAmurkin]

62. K/R

[ecstatic]

63. actually, the term "Obamanation" seems kind of racist

Like a sarcastic, subtle way of linking Obama with the Nation of Islam. :shrug:

[Blue-Jay]

69. No. It's hilarious because it sounds like "abomination"!

hyuck hyuck hyuck....

[Lerkfish]

72. either way, its either race baiting or juvenile, and has no place in a democatic

campaign strategy

[ecstatic]

81. ahhh.... I never thought of it that way. Clever

I need to think of an equivalent for Edwards. JohnEComeLatelyItes

[Barack_America]

65. Clinton supporters have started all of the recent race threads...

Have you noticed? Isn't that ironic considering the Obama campaign is supposedly doing the race baiting?

Think about it and watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmUUYo9o9eg&feature=PlayList&p=B03F10C0072F4762&index=6

[NMMNG]

71. I never heard the term before I saw it here

And the only people I know of who are upset about it are other DUers.

Maybe they should get over themselves and their faux outrage over this non-event.*






*Yes, that's :sarcasm: so people will know what we LGBTs have been dealing with lately.

[mod mom]

75. Perhaps some racial sensitivity classes would serve you well. Why would any Dem

want to use divisive words toward African Americans? Shame on you-attempting to talk this country back to a time when blatant racist remarks divided this country. How low will you go?

[wyldwolf]

79. the words aren't racist (or at least they weren't until Obama supporters decided they were.)

[mod mom]

86. It's NOT whether you find them insensitive, read this from AAOpinion.blogspot.com:

This is for those who want to act "special" and pretend they don't know what Andrew Coumo was up to when he used the phrase "shuck and jive". Here is the definition from encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com

Shuckin' and jivin' (or shucking and jiving) is a slang term primarily used by African Americans. It refers to the speech and behavioral mechanisms adopted in the presence of an authority figure <1>. Shuckin' and jivin' usually involves clever lies and impromptu storytelling, used to one-up an opponent or avoid punishment <2>. Such behavior is believed to have originated in the era of slavery <3>.

Also just in case you want to act even more special and pretend that you had heard that phrase recently or think it is commonly used then you probably still wear leisure suits and think "Three's Company" is still a #1 show.

In my opinion Andrew Coumo would have never uttered those insensitive words if the conversation was not focused on a black man.

-snip
http://aaopinion.blogspot.com/2008/01/lets-not-let-andrew-coumo-shuck-jive.html

[Vinca]

77. It's often said that, like pornography, you know racism when you see it.

"Shuck and jive" strikes me as racist. When there are so many other words in the English language to use, why use provocative ones?

[NoBorders]

78. I have to say

I didn't know people viewed the phrase as being so controversial, and I'm an Obama supporter.

[wyldwolf]

80. they don't. It's a political ploy

[Bonobo]

83. Hope you don't mind another kick. It's such a great thread, you know.

[OzarkDem]

84. Wyldwolf, you're DLC, right?

Why are you stirring up trouble between two candidates who both essentially hew to your agenda?

[vee]

85. It's in the same ballpark as "trailer trash", which also shouldn't be used in political

dialog, contrary to what Hillary supporters might believe.

[Bonobo]

90. Kick for visibility.

[David Zephyr]

93. You sound like Bill Clinton rationalizing that a blow job wasn't sex. Cuomo's statement was racist.

You are only digging a deeper hole for Cuomo. Keep it up.

Andrew Cuomo will apologize and admit it was racist. Your post will look even more foolish then than it does now.

You need to give this one up.