Would the Real Wesley Clark please stand up?

[Scott Lee]

What to do, what to do....the Wesley Clark of 1999 was all over breaking the will of a foreign nation in a US made war. But when it comes to Iraq, his political aspirations can't allow him to be consistent.

So which Wesley Clark are you supporting?


____________________________________

Clark's hypocritical obstructionism in Iraq

http://slate.msn.com/id/2090437/



If you think U.S. troops are outnumbered in Iraq, you should have seen President Bush fending off the White House press corps Tuesday morning. "You just spoke about the suicide bombers in Iraq as being desperate. But as yesterday's attack shows, they're also increasingly successful," one reporter told Bush. "There's been a much more somber assessment (of the U.S. predicament) in private," noted another. "Senior U.S. intelligence officials on the ground in Iraq have estimated that we have, at most, six months to restore order there and quell the violence, or else we risk losing the support of the Iraqi populace," said a third. "Do you feel that the attacks that have happened recently will discourage some countries to contribute troops or manpower?" asked a fourth. "Isn't there a limit to American patience, particularly in an election year?" asked a fifth.

Bush did his best to puncture the pessimism. "The foreign terrorists are trying to create conditions of fear and retreat," he argued. "(They) believe that we're soft, that the will of the United States can be shaken. … They want countries to say, 'Oh, gosh, well, we better not send anybody there, because somebody might get hurt.' That's precisely what they're trying to do. And that's why it's important for this nation and our other coalition partners to stand our ground." To questions on every aspect of the postwar conflict—U.S. troops, Bush's $87 billion appropriation request, donations and reinforcements from other countries—Bush responded with the language of intimidation, defiance, and will.

I've seen this struggle for the psychology of a nation at war before. Four years ago, NATO's military commander, Gen. Wesley Clark, faced a similar barrage of pessimism from the press and from members of Congress hostile to President Clinton's war in Kosovo. The skeptics argued that our adversary, Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic, had proven to be too mentally strong for us and that we should back off. Clark turned that argument on its head: By refusing to let Milosevic break our will, we would break his. Milosevic "may have thought that some countries would be afraid of his bluster and intimidation," said Clark. "He was wrong. … He thought that taking prisoners and mistreating them and humiliating them publicly would weaken our resolve. Wrong again. … We're winning, Milosevic is losing, and he knows it."

<snip>

That's why it's so troubling today to see Clark join in the same self-fulfilling wave of determined pessimism and obstruction he battled four years ago. "This president didn't know how he wanted (the Iraq war) to end. He doesn't know what he's doing today," Clark charged in Sunday's Democratic presidential debate. "I would not have voted (for the) $87 billion. … The best form of welfare for the troops is a winning strategy. And I think we ought to call on our commander in chief to produce it. And I think he ought to produce it before he gets one additional penny for that war."

<snip>

___________________________


Hawk or Dove? When it comes to the wandering policies of Democratic latecomer Wesley Clark, only the shadow knows.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

3. Can you speak to the issue, or complain about the date?

See, the issue is still relevent.

I await your response.

[Dookus]

4. await all you want....

I don't care to even engage you in debate, because it's obvious from your actions that informed discussion is not your goal. It's to find every lame smear you can find on the web and bring it back here.

It's lame. It's pathetic. It's sad. It neither hurts Clark, nor helps your candidate.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SahaleArm]

2. Clark to Bush: No exit plan - No money

End of story.

[H2O Man]

12. Clark Appears Flexible.

I think that General Wesley Clark appears to have an open mind in regard to foreign policy. That can be viewed as a strength. We live in dangerous times, and perhaps the greatest weakness of the current administration is its inability to comprehend the vast number of alternatives available to humans .... I believe the president expressed this in his "you're for us or against us" speech. I've spent the last 20 years as a psychiatric social worker, and have always stressed that being flexible is a good thing. As voters, we also have to allow for people to grow .... the RFK of 1958 was very different from the Bobby Kennedy of 1968.

[jmaier]

5. Hey, Scott

Is this your first "attack Wes Clark" thread today? Getting a late start aren't you?

By the way, is there any candidate you are fond of -- you only seem to post about one issue here? Just curious.

[Scott Lee]

14. I'm a pretty visible Dean supporter

As I'm sure a cursory glance at many of my posts on DU would reveal.

I'm just trying some tactical revisions, you know, testing some of the stuff I'm seeing leveled at Howard Dean on a daily and boringly predictable basis.

Let me know how I'm doing.

[Dookus]

15. ahh..

I see now.

"I don't like what other people are doing, so I'll do the same thing."

How mature.

[Scott Lee]

17. They say demontration can be the most effective teacher

And, you're welcome.

[jmaier]

18. Come now, Scott

Your no follower -- you've been a real energetic trendsetter in this department. Don't sell yourself short.

[Scott Lee]

23. LOL, thank you....but I'm sure you get the point here.

[jmaier]

28. Actually,

I really don't. I think that you and a few other Dean supporters plus several silly Clark supporters and perhaps a Kerry one or two should get your own little forum in DU. Then y'all can play these stupid "one downsmanship" games to your hearts content.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[worldgonekrazy]

6. This is BS

You know it man.

You're making us Dean supporters look bad.

[JNelson6563]

7. Hawk or Dove?? Not the only ???

"Speaking on May 11, 2001, as the keynote speaker to the Pulaski County Republican Party's Lincoln Day Dinner, Clark said that American involvement abroad helps prevent war and spreads the ideals of the United States, according to an AP dispatch the following day.

Two weeks later, a report in U.S. News and World Report said Arkansas Republican politicos were "pondering the future of Wesley Clark:" "Insiders say Clark, who is a consultant for Stephens Group in Little Rock, is preparing a political run as a Republican. Less clear: what office he'd campaign for. At a recent Republican fund-raiser, he heralded Ronald Reagan's Cold War actions and George Bush's foreign policy. He also talked glowingly of current President Bush's national security team. Absent from the praise list -- his former boss, ex-Commander in Chief Bill Clinton."

Clark told CNN's Judy Woodruff earlier this month that he had decided to register as a Democrat. Left unsaid and unknown at this point is exactly when and why he decided to become a Democrat.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles8/DV...esley-Clark.htm

Comments made in May 2001 surfaced, showing Clark heaping praise on Bush and his team: 'I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice... people I know very well - our President George W Bush. We need them there,' he told an Arkansas Republican dinner.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/internation...1091321,00.html

Sept. 29 issue - After Al Qaeda attacked America, retired Gen. Wes Clark thought the Bush administration would invite him to join its team. After all, he’d been NATO commander, he knew how to build military coalitions and the investment firm he now worked for had strong Bush ties. But when GOP friends inquired, they were told: forget it.

WORD WAS THAT Karl Rove, the president’s political mastermind, had blocked the idea. Clark was furious. Last January, at a conference in Switzerland, he happened to chat with two prominent Republicans, Colorado Gov. Bill Owens and Marc Holtzman, now president of the University of Denver. “I would have been a Republican,” Clark told them, “if Karl Rove had returned my phone calls.” Soon thereafter, in fact, Clark quit his day job and began seriously planning to enter the presidential race-as a Democrat. Messaging NEWSWEEK by BlackBerry, Clark late last week insisted the remark was a “humorous tweak.” The two others said it was anything but. “He went into detail about his grievances,” Holtzman said. “Clark wasn’t joking. We were really shocked.”

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3087185/

And don't forget that the actual videotape of Clark's remarks at the R fundraiser in Arkansas was shown repeatedly on several TV networks. It's not just a rumor or even a transcript. They've got him on tape.

Julie

[Dookus]

10. LOL...

wow, I'd never read that before. Oh wait... I did. A thousand times.

What's the MATTER with some people? Christ, support your candidate - go crazy! But why keep reposting the same thing time and time again? Do you REALLY think it hurts Clark or helps Dean? :eyes:

[jmaier]

11. Julie,

you and Scott are like a tag team. Is there any thing that could be revealed by someone responding to any of your posts on this topic that would satisfy you -- or are you simply going to be on "auto-play" on this issue until the nominating convention?

[SahaleArm]

13. Auto-repeat until the nomination is won n/t

[Code_Name_D]

20. Not any where near as revealing as your post I am afrade.

hyper-boiles any one? They seem to be the spechal of the day.

[jmaier]

26. Actually,

I consider it a fair question. Those sentiments have been expressed by that author numerous times on many threads regardless of how much or how intelligently they were addressed. So, the question seems fair to me. Where was the hyperbole exactly?

[Code_Name_D]

29. Its not a fair question, its an ad-homonic attack.

The poster is questoning there debating style, and claming sinister modives that two DUers are hevens-for-bid cordinating there arguments with each other.

As if we don't see this in spades coming from the Clark supporters.

[jmaier]

33. ad hominem

[Code_Name_D]

36. So I see you got my pont well enugh.

Ah, thanks for the spelling corection, waiter. But I ordered a responce with my McClark-meal.

[jmaier]

37. I wasn't attacking debating

style. There doesn't appear to be an attempt to debate. Just a drive by reposting of the same attack on multiple threads. I'll stand by my comments. Have a nice day.

[JNelson6563]

39. Untrue

If I have ever gotten a rational reasonable response to these quotes, I assure you I am unaware. I have, with one Clark supporter, shared my biggest concern via PM and gotten a much appreciated rational, well-thought-out response to which I responded in kind.

I'd like to know if there was a good explanation because I am well aware that Clark may win the nomination and dread dealing with footage of Clark praising Bush while trying to promote Clark as the answer to Bush as a member of the Dem party.

And as an FYI: The bulk of my politcal efforts (as I have stated repeatedly here at DU) has been party building. I know my efforts will be very beneficial in this region to whoever gets thenom and I know full well that may not be Dean. Yet still, that is where my efforts are concentrated.

Answers and reassurances are what I'd like the most.

Julie

[Scott Lee]

19. Wesley Clark - our fairweather democrat friend.

"I'm still trying to grab the whole "my word is like an oak" thing...."

- Jerry McGuire

[Memekiller]

25. Dean's lack of Democratic credentials.

>>>And don't forget that the actual videotape of Clark's remarks at the R fundraiser in Arkansas was shown repeatedly on several TV networks. It's not just a rumor or even a transcript. They've got him on tape.

Julie

Hey, you don't hear Clark making noises about his troops packing up their marbles and going home if he doesn't get the nomination. Clark's move to the Democratic party may be recent, but at least he's not hinting his supporters shouldn't rally behind whoever the Democratic nominee turns out to be. That's more loyalty to the party than Dean is showing the past few days.

[Code_Name_D]

32. Dean knows that his support is not his to pledge to some one else.

Your talking to one of them. If Clark is on the ballot, I stay home.

I will no longer present rubber stamp votes for talking head Democrats working for the GOP in secrit. That goes for Leabermen, Kerry, and Clark.

[Memekiller]

42. This is my point... his supports are looking like Nader's

I for one think there's a difference between the Democrats and Republicans. How can anyone, after three years of Bush, think there's not a difference between Bush and Gore? Bush's supporters sure think there's a difference. And they'll fight like hell to get him re-elected. But yet again, non-Republicans are willing to do everything they can to ensure we remain divided and out of the White House, Congress, the bench.

But I, for one, won't be blackmailed by Dean's "threats".

[JNelson6563]

35. It has been my experience

that they are not. Of course we are talking RL here. My RL experiences teach me that some Clark supporters are willing to infiltrate their local Dem parties and try to misuse party info. Oh yes, I used to be a "Clark is my #2" kinda girl. Between revelations from former Pentagon folks, RL experiences with Repubs who now support Clark infiltrating our local party and stealing (or at least trying to) valuable info and the constant berage of lies and misrepresentations of Dean statements on DU I have had my fill.

That doesn't even begin to cover the shrill, near-hysterical PMs I've gotten from nearly incoherent Clark supporters, claiming proudly that they are not even Dems and that they will never support any Dem but Clark. But you go ahead and believe your happy thoughts.

Julie

[Memekiller]

44. I would support any Democratic nominee...

...because like the people who set up this board, I believe the goal is to unseat Bush, no matter who that turns out to be. But tell me, if Dean gets the nomination, why should I and every other Democrat rally behind a candidate who would not call on his followers to rally behind ours?

[JNelson6563]

45. I'm sorry I missed that

Where did Dean say he wouldn't back or urge his supporters to back the nominee? Quote please. Mind you, urging supporters to do so does not guarantee they will.....

Anhow, I'll await your source on this.

Julie

[Memekiller]

49. To quote Talkingpointsmemo...

"I don't care if Dean says he'll endorse whoever wins. He's playing the defection card. And that crosses the line.

"I don't doubt that it would be hard to reconcile some Dean supporters to another Democratic nominee. But that's not the point. By saying it, he's leveraging it, and encouraging it.

"The price of admission to the Democratic primary race is a pledge of committed support to whomever wins the nomination, period. (The sense of entitlement to other Democrats' support comes after you win the nomination, not before.) If Dean can't sign on that dotted-line, he has no business asking for the party's nomination."

Here, here.

[JNelson6563]

50. so you've no quote, what a shock, not

Talking points memo opinion isn't a quote from Dean FYI.

Julie

[TorchTheWitch]

46. hmmm

That doesn't even begin to cover the shrill, near-hysterical PMs I've gotten from nearly incoherent Clark supporters, claiming proudly that they are not even Dems and that they will never support any Dem but Clark. But you go ahead and believe your happy thoughts.

How about the ones that are just plain bunk? You know, like the ones you sent me about how some Clark supports could learn a lot from me because I'm rational and don't bash, and how "Lord knows" you "do what you can with certain Dean supporters". Remember those? From about a week or two ago?
:eyes:

[mikehiggins]

47. What/where/who is RL? eom

[worldgonekrazy]

30. The tape would sure hurt him in the general election

He would hardly look credible attacking Bush while on the other hand Bush Co. is running commercials of him licking their boots.

[Dookus]

31. The only way

this can hurt Clark is if Bush runs an ad saying "Clark's such an idiot, he even praised ME!"

Oh wait... that wouldn't hurt Clark, either.

The vast majority of Americans were supportive of the President after 9/11. It will NOT be seen as a negative against Clark that he was, too.

[Code_Name_D]

34. Am I to beleive that being a turn coat

is considered a good thing for a Clark supporter? To me, is says Clark will say any thing if you put a thousand doller bill in his pocket. Dose the Genral come complete with a string in the back?

[Memekiller]

43. We should welcome people into the party...

I know many other former Republicans that have left because of Bush. I, for one, think it's a good thing people are coming into the party. Don't see why you're so keen on keeping them away.

[Scott Lee]

38. Yes, so was Hillary Clinton.

And now she has her nose shoved so far up the asses of the war appeasers that she can smell the back of their molars.

I wouldn't really be touting THAT crowd, if I were you.

[Democrats unite]

8. Since you seem to like Slate...

Defending the General

don't know whether Gen. Wesley Clark is qualified to be president, but Peter J. Boyer's profile in this week's New Yorker—which paints him as scarily unqualified—is an unfair portrait as well as a misleading, occasionally inaccurate précis of the 1999 Kosovo war and Clark's role in commanding it.

Boyer relies heavily on some of Clark's fellow retired Army generals who clearly despise him. The gist of their critique, as Boyer summarizes, is that Clark, while a brilliant analyst, "had a certainty about the rightness of his views which led to conflicts with his colleagues and, sometimes, his superiors."

I have met a fair number of generals, and I can't think of a single one who did not have "a certainty about the rightness of his views." There may have been a couple of one-star generals who expressed this certainty in a modest tone, but above that rank—and Clark retired as a four-star general—their confidence easily became belligerent if their opinions were challenged.


Continue

http://slate.msn.com/id/2091194/

[Scott Lee]

21. Speaking of Clark's support within the military....

Um, where is it?

Tommy Frank slams him (well granted, that one's easy to see through).

No major brass has endorsed him.

The military establishment seems silent to quietly grumbling about him.

So what's up? I find this extremely curious from an institution that has a history of staying tight, at least publically, with it's own.

[Code_Name_D]

27. He hear that

Captain Crunch and Cornnel Sanders indorced him the other day. Corprate ties not withstanding.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Code_Name_D]

22. I am sure a Clark supporter would nothing better

than to order some one outside the Clark camp to sit down and shut up.

[BootinUp]

40. Both the author and you are confused

Its not a question of dove or hawk, its a question of battle strategy. Clark never said we should pull out of Iraq and leave it a mess. He rightly pointed out that the 87 billion (or 66 for military)was not needed until like May next year and wanted to see more debate and more planning revealed by the White House since they did such a crappy job planning the post-war already.

Its the same Wesley Clark. In 1999 he was fighting against those who didn't want a backup plan with troops and attack helicopters. He was trying to stop an atrocity that was in progress. That war was justified and was a muti-lateral NATO effort.In 2003 Clark is saying similar things the plan for post war Iraq was not complete.

In both cases he demonstrates his ability to understand tactics and battlefield strategy and not to get into a situation without a backup plan and enough resources to get the job done.

[mikehiggins]

41. Well, I guess I am supporting the Wesley Clark

who risked his life and his career to fight genocide in the Balkans, who led a military alliance in NATO to a successful intervention to save the lives of over a million Muslim Kosovans, who took on the likes of Tom Delay and others to fight for the chance to do what is right. That was why Clinton gave him that medal you see in the Clark ads.

I'm also supporting the Wesley Clark who opposes an unjust and illegal war in Iraq, peddled to the US public with lies and innuendoes, run without any serious thought or plan as to the consequences of what we were doing, on behalf of a repressive and reactionary regime in Washington.

Hawk or Dove?

Just a man who sees what is the right thing, and isn't afraid to stand up for it. In Kosovo it was women and children being marked for death by ex-communist strongman Milosevic. In Iraq it's American soldiers dying in a war waged under false pretenses.

Me? I'd be ashamed to ask a question like that.

[SayitAintSo]

48. "Ah don' wanna talk to you no more ....

...you empty-headed animal food-trough wiper!

....... Ah fart in your general direction...

.......... Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries...


... Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!"

-- Monty Python -- (seems most apropos here)


:)

[Moderator]

51. I am locking this thread....

It has become rather inflammatory.

Thanks,
DU Moderator