Does Bhutto Assassination HURT Obama?

[Bullet1987]

Joe "Blow" Scarborough was on MSNBC shilling hard for Clinton, Guiliani, and McCain and said this could have a DEVASTATING impact on Obama's campaign since he's new to Washington and people like Clinton have more connections. Personally, I don't see this event translating much to the Presidential campaigns over here. Surely though, the Clinton campaign will jump on this and use it to their advantage.

[MethuenProgressive]

1. Only if he can't blame it on Clinton.

[Cha]

17. Another observation

from the peanut gallery.

[MethuenProgressive]

88. Get over your self, z..

...we're *all* the peanut gallery.

[MadBadger]

2. It depends on how he handles this

[TwilightGardener]

3. No. Obama has displayed plenty of solid knowledge about Pakistan.

Bhutto even agreed with him in an interview that another DUer was kind enough to post.

[sandnsea]

4. If Democrats agree with Joe Scarborough

that's what should be concerning.

[EstimatedProphet]

9. Well said

[skipos]

5. No. nt

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maven]

7. Who gives a shit. nt

[TeamJordan23]

8. No one really can prevent this types of things in other countries. It's more shows Bush' failure to

put adequate pressure on Musharruf than anything else.

[jenmito]

10. I fear there WILL be people who say we can't "chance" nominating him at a "time like this"

which I'm SURE the Clintons will play on. Obama should remind people of how Hillary and Edwards got us into IRAQ when we should've been concentrating on the Afghanistan/Pakistan region instead to remain after al Qaeda. It's STILL about judgement and Hillary doesn't have it.

[Adelante]

11. I think any campaign running on "experience" will be using it

Not just Clinton's. However, since the "experienced" helped Bush make the most disastrous foreign policy blunder in generations, Obama can handle it.

For example, what Bhutto herself had to say that wasn't out of line with Obama's own expressed judgment on Pakistan:

BHUTTO: Well, I wouldn’t like the United States to violate Pakistan’s sovereignty with unauthorized military operations. But the issue that I would like to stress is that Barack Obama also said, if Pakistan won’t act. And that’s the critical issue, that the government has to act. And the government has to act to protect Pakistan’s own serenity and integrity, its own respect, and to understand that if it creates a vacuum, then others aren’t going to just twiddle their thumbs while militants freely move across the border.

I think General Musharraf did the right thing recently in admitting that militants are using our soil, but he said the army has nothing to do with it. But nonetheless, the issue for me is that we cannot cede parts of Pakistani territory to anybody; not just the Taliban, to anybody. That in Pakistan we have one army, one police, one constitution, one government. We cannot allow parallel armies, parallel militias, parallel laws and parallel command structures. Today it’s not just the intelligence services, who were previously called a state within a state. Today it’s the militants who are becoming yet another little state within the state, and this is leading some people to say that Pakistan is on the slippery slope of being called a failed state. But this is a crisis for Pakistan, that unless we deal with the extremists and the terrorists, our entire state could founder.

[terrya]

12. Anyone who believes that HRC will "use this to their advantage" is an ignorant asshole.

[jenmito]

13. Anyone who believes she won't is an idiot.

[Bullet1987]

14. Watch her do it...then look in the mirror and see who the ignorant

one is.

[sandnsea]

15. lol, oh of course she will

This is the most critical moment in this election. It is essential to watch every one of these candidates and see which ones play to fear and which ones work towards stability and hope.

[jenmito]

16. Hillary used the fear card just yesterday. She has no shame.

I'm sure they're hi-fiving each other right now. Bhutto agreed with Obama, so I hope he points that out.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

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[MNDemNY]

25. How will BHO position himself as the "VICTIM" in this?

Or is that what your laying out now?

[jenmito]

32. He won't. He'll point out that Bhutto agreed with his position on Pakistan.

Nice try.

[MNDemNY]

34. Your babble is getting strained.

It is so obvious that you have no idea what your wanking about.

[jenmito]

40. Are you saying Bhutto DIDN'T agree with him? Because there's a thread with her quote agreeing with

him. Call it babble all you want. It's so obvious that you have nothing but personal insults-the weapon of the losers.

[MNDemNY]

43. Your off on your own little tangent.I never commented on

your assertion that Bhutto agreed with whatever, irrelevant to this thread. If you really think your little nugget of info will matter to the masses you are delusional.

[jenmito]

45. Tangent? This thread is about Bhutto's assassination hurting Obama. I gave you a reason I think it

won't hurt him. But keep up with the personal insults. It suits you. :hi:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NewHampster]

33. Obama supporters in NH are trying fear

From the Union Leader Letters.

Democrats should fear Clinton

To the Editors: With the results of the 2006 elections and the growing dissatisfaction with George Bush and the Republican Party, it is a good bet that Democrats will gain more congressional power and the White House in 2008.

But Democrats should be careful not to make the same mistakes as Republicans. Arrogance, corruption, sex scandals, bureaucratic incompetence and over-politicalization of government have led to their loss of power. Democrats should avoid these same traps.

At the same time, all accounts describe a Republican Party in disarray that is having trouble raising money and enthusiasm. All polls show that Republicans are not happy with their current slate of presidential candidates.

There is, however, one candidate that Democrats should fear because that candidate can unite the Republican Party and bring them back into power. That candidate is Hillary Clinton. This is one of the reasons why I am supporting Barack Obama.

We need a change in how politics is practiced in Washington. In the winner take all environment, the big loser is the American people. I believe that Sen. Obama will put country and solutions before party and partisanship.

I hope you will join me.

-- Robert Spiegelman, Londonderry

Bob is a local volunteer field leader of the Obama campaign. Usually a good, sensible supporter but I think this letter is showing desperation.

[emilyg]

56. Sick.

[jenmito]

57. I agree. It IS sick that she used the fear card.

[SaveElmer]

58. I can only hope that if Obama gets the nod...he has alot more class...

Than some of his supporters....present company included...!

[jenmito]

63. What's not classy about pointing out FACTS? I see why you wouldn't LIKE the ugly facts being

pointed out, but the facts are the facts. And everyone has to face them...present company included! :shrug:

[emilyg]

70. Take a pill - walk away from PC.

[Cha]

85. That's cause hillary is scared

outta her fucking mind that she's gonna lose and then all that enabling bushit would be for nothing.

[journalist3072]

19. Exactly. You know, the anti-Hillary people here on DU just talk out of their a@s

They really have no shame or no factual basis to back up their statements.

[MNDemNY]

20. Whether she uses it or not, any foreign crisis will logically hurt BHO to the benefit of HRC

[jefferson_dem]

24. Why are you the only DUer (to my knowledge) who uses the "BHO" label?

:shrug:

[MNDemNY]

27. Oh, not that tripe again. Get the fuck over it.

[jefferson_dem]

39. So you don't want to answer the question?

That's very telling.

[MNDemNY]

46. Quite simple. Those are his initials.

Honestly it started completely with out any intent. I continue because it pisses off the obamanation. You don't like it? GOOD. :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :spank: :spank: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

[jefferson_dem]

49. yeah. right.

sure.

[MNDemNY]

51. ,

:cry: :cry: :shrug: :cry: :cry:

[aquart]

81. Obamanation, however, is unnecessary.

And demeaning more to the user than those being stigmatized. I don't care how euphemistically it is put.

[MNDemNY]

83. I quite disagree, I think obamanation is just

the descriptor I was looking for.

[aquart]

80. Oh, honey, you do NOT want him referred to as B.O.

I so hate when parents refuse to consider things like this.

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. Howso? nt

[MNDemNY]

38. Any focus on foreign crisis plays into experience.

You can argue all you want, but the PERCEPTION is that BHO lacks experience. THe PERCEPTION is that HRC is the candidate of experience. Like I said, argue all you want, but that is what is "out there"

[HEyHEY]

75. If you believe Americans actually give a shit about foreign crisis

[jenmito]

42. No it won't. It will remind people of how she got it wrong on Iraq with help of her husband.

[MNDemNY]

54. No, only you and the o'nation.

[jenmito]

66. Keep hoping that's the case.

[Cha]

22. HRC uses any ol' shit that comes

along to snatch up and use to their advantage..but they got nothing.

[Inuca]

21. Unfortunately I think it will n/t

[TeamJordan23]

23. Oh the irony, I thought all the Hillbots were saying that the Repubs wanted Obama to be the nominee.

[aquart]

82. "Hillbots"?

This is gooking.

[durrrty libby]

26. Well Obama said he was "shocked" over the assassination

This is at least the 3rd attempt of assassination. How could anyone be shocked?

His statement only strengthened the inexperienced meme

[MNDemNY]

28. Him and Musharif, the only ones "shocked".

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. Bullshit.

"Shocked" does not equal "surprised".

Anybody with a sense of compassion would be shocked. That doesn't mean that it was unexpected.

[aquart]

76. "Shocked"?

Well, I was shocked. Just not even slightly surprised. Who didn't think she was going home to be killed?

[Forkboy]

30. Not directly, but it does favor Hillary. Though if anyone should gain it's Biden.

He's more on top of this than any of the others.

[MNDemNY]

31. That's true, but unfortunately, the (if there is any) advantage goes to HRC.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. You keep saying that, but offer no evidence.

Please explain your reasoning.

EDIT: OK, I just saw your response above. Thanks.

[MNDemNY]

41. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3892650&mesg_id=3892963

[NYCGirl]

50. Not necessarily, according to Greg Sargent at TPM:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/12/joe_scarborough.php

It's also worth considering Scarborough's claim that the Bhutto assassination automatically benefits Hillary. Whatever you think of Hillary, he is obviously basing this diagnosis on the presumption that voters automatically look to presumed hawkish candidates in times of peril and confusion. According to this reading, voters will automatically conclude in such situations that they want the candidate who is imagined to be "more willing to use force," whatever that means. There's no chance that voters could be actually evaluating each candidate's foreign policy ideas.

But there's no earthly reason, as Ben Smith notes, to discount the possibility that the assassination could make people more receptive to Obama's argument that "the Clinton/Bush status quo has produced disaster after disaster, and it's time for a change."

Look, I don't have any idea who will benefit politically from Bhutto's assassination. But the point is, neither does Scarborough -- yet he goes right ahead and tells us that it's Rudy and Hillary, anyway. This is just punditry on auto-pilot, the reflexive serving up of diagnoses based on the same old flawed assumptions that have under-girded establishment punditry for well over a decade now, unchanged by external events or all evidence to the contrary. And we'll undoubtedly be hearing lots more of this in the days ahead.

[no name no slogan]

44. As much as the killer tiger attack hurts Kucinich

think about it.

[ronnykmarshall]

55. SNAP!

[youthere]

47. No. it will have no effect on Obama.

[BeyondGeography]

52. Those are the people who have been consistently wrong on Iraq

Pakistan and the proper response to al Qaeda. Obama has been warning people all along about how the voices of experience use the fear card to distract from their own foreign policy misjudgments post 9/11; now watch his opponents overplay their hand. Should be interesting.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

53. Thanks for the much needed perspective. I had forgotten it was all about Obama.

[ronnykmarshall]

59. Snap #2!

[NewHampster]

60. Sing this Ronny

Obama
Been
Away

Many
A day

sing it with me...

Obama
Been
Away

Many
A day

[durrrty libby]

64. So NH, you've taken up song writing? Do you love my Santa?

Hope all is well with you and a Happy New Year too:hi:

[NewHampster]

67. Noticed him yesterday and yes, I love him

Pats will go ...... this weekend.

Don't say it.

[durrrty libby]

61. His supporters rightly fear how his inexperience will affect him

The anxiety in this thread is palpable

[MNDemNY]

71. But to raise any questions of that,seem to send them into a tizzy.

[durrrty libby]

73. Well of course. Tizzy is a side effect of anxiety.

[Beacool]

62. Frankly, I couldn't care less how it affects Obama.

But I guess that for some the world revolves around him. As for Joe Scarborough, who cares what he has to say either.

Some of us are still reeling from the news of Mrs. Bhutto's assassination and are not yet thinking how her death is going to help our candidate of choice.

[Alexander]

65. Nope. If anything it will probably only help Joe Biden.

And I'm not one of Biden's biggest fans, either.

[loveangelc]

68. possibly. nt

[BringBigDogBack]

69. No.

Seems kind of silly to me.

[Renew Deal]

72. I don't see how it has an impact.

I don't think Bhutto was that connected to anything going on in US elections or politics. If anything, Obama was correct about Pakistan.

[JackORoses]

74. Bhutto supported Obama, it might actually help his campaign for attention to be drawn to this

RIP Benazir

[antiimperialist]

77. The Iraq war worsens extremism, and Clinton voted for it

enough said.

[Evergreen Emerald]

78. "enough said?" no, there is more: what about everyone else who voted for IWR

What about Obama who supported the vote in a later speech?
What about Obama who voted for the war every chance he got?

What about biden, Dodd, Edwards who also voted for IWR?

Why is Clinton blamed and everyone else gets a free pass?

[sniffa]

79. what about Richardson?

he surely has some blame in this.

[hayu_lol]

84. To answer the original question by the OP...

Bhutto's untimely and unfortunate death should have no effect on any of our candidates.

None of them were responsible for the attack. None of them benefit in any way from the attack and resulting death.

It is only the battle between the supporters of the candidates who want to fight and spit at each other.

If anyone is responsible, it is George W Bush who wanted Bhutto to take Pakistan over and keep the country under control. She might have been able to do that.

Bhutto herself made this statement: "They will not attack me. I am a woman and the Koran forbids attacking a woman. If they do attack me, they will burn in Hell forever."

No, this should not affect any of our candidates, not even the Repugs.

[dailykoff]

86. No but strangley enough

it seems like it's supposed to.

[pipoman]

87. The assination in itself should have no effect

on any of the US Presidential candidates. What will have an effect is each of the candidate's response to the attack, the delivery of any statement and their take on whats next.

So far Obama's initial statement was the absolute weakest of any of the candidate's I saw or read about. The delivery was terrible. Completely scripted and unrehearsed. This was the time he needed to be speaking from the heart even if the sentiment was very short, instead he opted to deliver an amateurish poorly written canned statement. That is what may hurt him. This incident has the effect of a dress rehearsal if the candidate must comment on world affairs, they must look Presidential when they do...Obama didn't.

[BigDDem]

89. Maybe BO can call the "president of Canada"

for advice.