Can't believe what reverse snobs some posters here are...

[pookastew]

I realize this post doesn't throw a bomb at Dean, Nader, or whoever, so will bore many, but...

What is up with the bashing of Kerry for having gone to an Ivy league college? Or having been in Skull and Bones?

You know, one or two cool people went to prep school. John Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy. Tom Waits. Etc.

Why such snobs here? You don't have to come from a steel mill town to be a good Democrat.

Equating Kerry with Bush because they both went to Yale is like equating chicken salad with you-know-what because they both come from a chicken.

They couldn't be more different. Kerry's grandfather was a penniless immigrant. W's was a US Senator. Kerry was an A1 top-of-his-class admission to Yale who could have gone anywhere because he worked his butt off. W was a "legacy".

You don't have to love the guy, but don't fall into the GOP trap of thinking he's the same as the tWit.

<descending soapbox>

[northzax]

1. you don't get it.

Dean's better, since he didn't go to Yale (oh, he did? my bad) and he's not the son of a rich man...(oh, he is? never mind) and he didn't grow up on a fancy street (oh, PArk avenue? my bad.) and, and...

[XanaDUer]

5. Lol!

;)

[Eloriel]

7. I don't recall any Dean supporters ragging on kerry for that

esp. since we have so many SUBSTANTIVE reasons for loathing Kerry.

I think you're thinking of Edwards or Kucinich supporters.

[MurikanDemocrat]

33. Had one tell me last night that she can't vote for Kerry because

he owns a nice Townhouse. I don't want to call her out publically but will PM a link if you really want to see it.

[dsc]

39. I sure would

regardless of whether she does.

[mitchum]

41. Christ! Don't you find consider that just a bit invasive?

Take the poster's word for it (just as we're supposed to take your word for who and/or what you are)

[dsc]

49. No

as she said this:

Had one tell me last night that she can't vote for Kerry because


he owns a nice Townhouse. I don't want to call her out publically but will PM a link if you really want to see it.



Links, last I checked, were on the net. I think, given the context, that it was reasonable to assume she meant a link to a post on this website. So no, I don't find it intrusive, not in the least. But since Eloriel saw it and vouched for it, that is good enough for me.

[mitchum]

54. Whatever...

gets you off

ABB

[dsc]

73. I just saw the post

and, as often happens, the jury is still out. It clearly says what she says it does but no evidence is there to show she supports Dean.

On edit Jury is in. She did have her example.

[MurikanDemocrat]

60. Check your PM

[dsc]

68. Thank you

But as I have just read the entire thread, I have a quick question. How do you know this person is a Dean supporter. She is clearly in Edwards' corner now, and Dean isn't mentioned at all in any of those posts. I am not saying she isn't, I have no idea. But I am asking how you know she is.

[MurikanDemocrat]

76. From other past threads

[dsc]

78. Fair enough

I honestly don't recall ever reading a post by that person. Clearly that is a dumb reason not to support Kerry or anyone else for that matter.

[MurikanDemocrat]

92. As you see, I told her as much. ;-)

[Eloriel]

45. Okay, that was one

Not exactly a stampede, is it?

[MurikanDemocrat]

61. Point is you said there weren't any. I had one at my fingertips.

[Jen72]

174. Selective memory there.

Haven't many to the Edward's Supporters, just jumped off the Dean ship. The name on their avatar maybe different but the names that do the ragging are the same.

[dsc]

9. Please site one, just one,

post in which a Dean supporter has said anything like you just said we did. I want a link, I want it now, or I want you to post the following. "I just told stories I like about supporters of a candidate I hate because the truth didn't serve my purposes." For the record the one poster who has repeatedly brought up Yale vs being poor is an Edwards supporter.

[pookastew]

12. If you're referring to me...

..I never said anything about Dean or his supporters.

[dsc]

15. No I am not

and all you had to do to see that was look in the upper right corner of my post where it said the very confusing words In response to post 1.

[pookastew]

20. ...oh.

So that's how that works.

I didn't go to Yale, obviously.

[XanaDUer]

22. Hi pooka, and welcome!

:hi:

There are lots of cool features at DU. You can choose to "ignore" a poster, for whatever reason, by clicking the icon on their posts with the zzzzz. Then you never have to see/read them again , if you so choose.

You don't have to have gone to Yale for that. ;)

[pookastew]

25. Thanks.

I just drop in every once in a while to shill for rich liberals. It's a hobby.

[mitchum]

47. That was very good...

and very sly advice, LibertyChick :)

[Kahuna]

11. It's not like Dean came from a Republican famility either..

WHOOPS! :wow:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. Excellent!

I'm going to have to bookmark this thread. A classic.

[Eloriel]

53. Yeah, and got his Republican mother to switch to Dem

And a LOT of Republican voters to switch to Dem, and Independents, and people who've never voted before.

thanks for the reminder.

[corporatewhore]

19. cant say the same about Dennis Kucinich

[dsc]

44. I see no answer as of yet

Will I ever get one? Time and again, we hear about Dean supporters bad behavior. Time and again I ask for this behavior to be backed up with links. Time and again I get no response.

[Zomby Woof]

81. we'd provide links

But:

1. All of the Dean supporters' bad behavior has been deleted. Quite a lot of posts too, I might add.

2. Even if they weren't deleted, the facts have never been enough to convince a Dean person of the truth.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

91. then see rule #2 in the post

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[indigo32]

140. what does Dean have to do with this?

eom

[Democat]

146. Funny post!

:)

[wyldwolf]

2. When I read, "Kerry's grandfather was a penniless immigrant" I thought...

... it said "penisless immigrant."

Sorry. Seriously. You're right. One of the first things this Top40 music lovin' sappy movie goin' democrat noticed first about many DU'ers were their superiority complex on things of a class and entertainment related nature.

But, hey, it takes all kinds!

[saltpoint]

14. No, no, wyldwolf --

-- you're thinking of Richard Perle, a penisless ingrate.

[wyldwolf]

17. Damn! Right! Thanks for reminding me!

[AntiCoup2K4]

3. Implying that Skull & Bones is merely a fraternity is like

...implying the KKK is merely a "gentlemen's hunting club" - which was the explanation given in the old days.

Skull & Bones is evil to its very core. The fact that the Bush Criminal Empire - and not just the 3 generations of the Bushes themselves - arose from this place should be evidence enough of that fact.

[pookastew]

6. i don't mean to be disagreeable, but...

..that's just not true. Clubs like it exist all over the country. It's really not the big deal people think.

[AntiCoup2K4]

13. Thanks to Skull & Bonesman Prescott Bush, Hitler killed 12 million.

Thanks to Skull & Bonesmen Allen Dulles, George Bush Sr and others (through the CIA), drug smuggling and terrorism are flourishing all over the world.

Thanks to Skull & Bonesman George Bush Jr, 2700 people, mostly Americans died on 9-11-01, and over 500 have now died in Iraq thanks to a war based on lies. Which incidentally was approved by the vote of Skull & Bonesman John Kerry.

How many "clubs all over the country" can claim numbers like that? Hell, even the Klan can't claim a body count that high!

[pookastew]

They probably all ate...

...in a steakhouse at one point, too. Is steak to blame? Is everyone who eats steak part of the evil plot?

[AntiCoup2K4]

31. Steak is an inanimate object (at least after it leaves the slaughterhouse)

Now, granted there are some vegans who might say otherwise, but I don't find anything inherently evil in eating steak. It's not a valid comparison. Even the formerly live cow which the steak was once a part of was probably not evil. Unless it was one of those "mad cows" I keep hearing about.

[WitchWay]

30. elitism

It's elitism, sexism, racism, CLASSISM and anti-democratic.

These sorts of clubs are NOT okay, and they are unethical.

Also, I don't think Skull and Bones is some little club, either.

Skull and Bones is more like the mafia.

[lurk_no_more]

16. Tell me all you know for fact about Skull and Bones

Not what you've heard but what you know for fact, please.


Thank You!



And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[AntiCoup2K4]

28. What have I said that is not factual?

Are you denying that Kerry, the Bush family and others associated with the BCE are S&B members?

[pookastew]

38. Are you denying

that at some point they all probably ate steak?

[WitchWay]

35. it would be nice to know the facts, wouldn't it?

Well, it sure would be nice if Kerry would like to come clean and disclose everything HE knows about it and his involvement but its SECRET (just like Cheney's energy task force and his little hunting outing with Scalia).

Why all the secrecy?

[thebigthink]

163. Yeah, and while we're at it...

...I want to know what's in the Colonel's secret blend of 17 herbs and spices. That's a secret too -- just like Cheney's energy task force and his little hunting outing with Scalia.

If it's a secret, it must be something nefarious (since all secrets are created equal). I may never eat chicken again until we know the truth!

[buckeye1]

37. Um,

Please list all the evil Kerry has done.( besides kicking the screamer's ass)

[pookastew]

40. Can't you see? It's so obvious...

He was in the same frat..AT THE SAME COLLEGE!!!!!

Plus, his mother is related to someone who made money a long time ago. Like the Kennedys.

Forget what he did in his actual life. You have to look deeper, for the really hidden facts.

[Old and In the Way]

62. When you have no real facts to back your reasons to smear a

candidate, these bogus stories become very important.

Hey, I went to the same college as Clarance Thomas, does that mean I'm a Supreme Court Justice?

[SW FL Dem]

71. LOL I went to the same law school as Nixon.

Does that make me a republican?

[frustrated_lefty]

4. I don't so much care about

where he went to school. I do care about how he voted. And it's getting to the point I don't even care about that. This election is a farce and my interests aren't being represented.

[pookastew]

8. Well, if that's the case...

...if your interests aren't being represented, that's a problem.

I mean, mine aren't either. Not directly. But it's clear to me that the current administration is the worst in my lifetime, and it has to go. Whatever does that is fine by me.

[saltpoint]

10. I'm from a steel mill town and I'd love to have had --

-- Kerry's education.

On the issues, I think I would much rather live in Kerry's or Edwards' or Kucinich's America, for examples, than in Dubya's.

In our candidates' America, Roe v. Wade is reinforced and slop-doodle Klansmen aren't appointed to the federal judiciary.

Democrats wiin in 2004.

[mhr]

18. Some Of The Snobbery Comes From The Fact That The Middle Class

is disappearing and dissolving before our eyes.

One tenet of middle class life was that one could get ahead through hard work, education, and playing by the rules.

Anyone that comes from a privileged background invites suspicion then because those born "on the wrong side of the tracks" will never be able to get ahead by the old rules.

This is having an unsettling and disquieting effect as the reality of temporary employment, outsourcing, and the job loss recovery settle in.

[pookastew]

23. Great points.

Do you think DU'ers should distinguish between the rich who are part of the problem, and the rich who aren't?

[spooky3]

186. I agree. I am not aware that Kerry was valedictorian of his

high school class, and there are a hell of a lot of middle class or lower valedictorians who had no chance of getting into Yale (particularly, female & minority ones at the time he graduated). They worked hard, played by the rules, etc., but far more of them were excluded from Ivy League etc. schools because they were not from the "right families" or, because they worked their way through high school and other reasons related to class, they did not have the opportunity to develop all those "intangibles" (e.g., "leadership", "community service", "experiencing of other cultures") that more privileged kids get.

I don't mean to diminish Kerry's achievements in getting into Yale as he personally may have been highly deserving, but the truth needs to be remembered that a lot of deserving people were excluded NOT because of merit reasons, and being an Ivy Leaguer is only partly a function of your own merit--and in some cases such as legacy admits, nothing to do with it at all.

That said, I agree with the basic point that what you have done with your life, given the advantages that you had or lacked, is far more important than whether your family is well-to-do.

[QC]

21. It's just terrible how the Great Unwashed mistreat the aristocrats!

I tell you, the rich man just can't get a break in this country.

[dweller]

26. Isn't that the truth

makes my teacup overflow with tears...

<sniff>
dp

[funky_bug]

24. Oh people fall alright...

...when their arguments get weaker and weaker, they run to Drudge for their talking points.

Honest to goodness, I make a point of not responding to anything posted by supposed Democrats, if it can be read on a right-wing site.

People will believe what they WANT to believe.

[WitchWay]

27. it would be a huge oversight not to question Kerry's ties...

Sorry...but Kerry is in Skull in Bones with Bush and a bunch of Cheneys -- this means they are "BROTHERS" in this secret society in which members do favors for one another, politically and finanacially. This is not just some frat. These are a bunch of rich, elites who are working to concentrate wealth and power in their own hands. This is not okay, not democratic, and definitely puts Kerry's allegiances seriously into question. He joined this organization, so he has to answer for it.

When asked about Skull and Bones, he refuses to talk about it. It is not okay for him to refuse to talk about his allegiances. A presidential candidate needs to be upfront about his allegiances. How can you trust anyone, otherwise? Furthermore, he is allied through this organization with the Bushes and Cheneys.

Second, you mention only the penniless immigrant grandfather, when Kerry's maternal line is all Boston Blueblood, see his great grandfather:
http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/johnforbes.html

This means that John Kerry has attained certain priveleges in life by money that has come from the opium trade (...but the opium trade is where Skull and Bones started to fund themselves, interesting that his great grandfather was so involved.)

I, myself, would like to know more about this. IF anyone has more information, please post. I am VERY concerned about this matter, and I feel that it is of the utmost importance.

I don't know about you, but to me Kerry is coming from a very priveleged, elite, powerful, monied background that DEFINTIELY makes me question his loyalties. I disagree that it is reverse snobbery to question the loyalties of the rich or elite because wealth has to come from somewhere. And that wealth shows where loyalties likely lie. If someone doesn't have that money, there's no wealth to question.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

34. Just look at what the person has done with their lives

If Kerry was a morally decrepit blueblood who had used his S&B connections at anytime it would have been to make sure he didn't get placed in combat zones in Vietnam.
Well he didn't so.......

[pookastew]

36. Well, there's certainly no arguing with that.

Thanks goodness.

By the way, the big Kerry secret--and there is one--is not what you think.

[Eloriel]

63. You'll want to find threads by Seventhson

Watch for him and then ask him for some links to his threads. he's been studying this for many years and he has some of the same concerns you do.

Welcome to DU

(Like your name!)

[joyautumn]

166. thanks.

Eloriel,
Thanks. I'll be on the lookout for Seventhson. Thanks for the welcome!

[Old and In the Way]

189. Yes, our soon-to-be esteemed author.

His work on Botox and Skull and Bones is nothing short of brilliant.

[Scott Lee]

32. Thre are plenty of reasons to despise Lord Kerry

Going to prep school isn't one of them. But I'll give you a few...

Belonging to Skull and Bones. Not only does this compromise his run for president representing the democratic ticket (you are aware that Bush-hole is a S&B-man as well, and that their solemn rules forbid damaging a "brother"?), that very club does not allow Blacks, Jews, or Women. Do you admire the fact that Lord Kerry is a member of a club that does not allow Blacks, Jews or Women?

Talking out of both sides of his mouth when it comes to special interests. Kerry is a huge hypocrite here. Special interest money loves the guy, and yet he inveighs sermons about how he has fought against it.

His Pro War vote. Kerry says he was duped, but I'm not buying it. He cannot nuance his way out of this one, because on this issue he is either a liar, or stupid, or both: all three options not only disqualifying him from being a good president, but also from his current Senate seat.

His vote for the Patriot Act(s). When he could have stood up against this egregious slap in the face to our system and our dearest held priniciples, he decided to play it safe and nuance his way out of it later. Basically, he chicken-shitted out of a crucial point in our history. He not only outted himself as a self-serving DC Insider, but a Bush enabler.

His support for PNAC. Kerry is an avowed advocate of "Progressive Internationalism" which is nothing more than a kinder gentler imperialism - a version of the PNAC agenda. He thinks it's just hunky dory to put US troops all over the world, overthrowing governments, bombing innocent people; as long as its under the watchful eye of the UN. That is the only shade of difference he has with Bush-hole on this issue.

No Child Left Behind. This catastrophic, ugly bill is more accurately called "No Poor Child Left Unrecruited" because one of its insideous provisions is that schools do't get federal money unless they open up personal information of the students to go to the military for recruitment purposes. And of course, Lord Kerry supported it.

Kerry's late breaking support for ANWR drilling. This was a lovely surprise. In a recent interview on Hardball, Union leader Hoffa said to Matthews that Kerry supports "drilling all over" the US to help solve our oil demand problem - and that included drilling in ANWR. Matthews followed up by asking what Kerry thought was going to be pumped through the ANWR pipelines...water? The environmentalists are going to love this guy.

You get the picture. Perhaps we should approach the discussion this way....why don't you show me how Lord Kerry is significantly DIFFERENT than George W Bush?

[WitchWay]

43. great posting...

I totally agree with your post (and I'm praying for a miracle...because I'm very distrustful of Kerry.)

The only thing is when Kerry was at Yale, Lieberman (who was two years ahead of him) WAS tapped for Skull and Bones -- but he turned it down to join Scroll and Key instead (so, if this is true back then they were admitting Jews.)

Kerry also actually came out in favor of admitting women to Skull and Bones in 1990 or so (so, yes...he has been involved since Yale). They have been admitting women ever since. That doesn't make it any less troublesome.

[Scott Lee]

50. Thanks for the clarification on S&B

Well well, the Bonesmen are getting down right world beat arent they! Allowing women and Jews and all...that is progress!

I agree with your distrust of Kerry. Mine only goes a little farther, into the realm of pure disgust.

[pookastew]

46. So...

..are you voting for him or not?

[pookastew]

48. cause we could really use your support...

...in November.

[Scott Lee]

51. Did you read a word of my post?

That is a serious question.

[pookastew]

56. Sure, sure. Great post.

Just hoping we can count on your support in November.

[Scott Lee]

64. For George W. Kerry? Snocones in hell, my friend.

Since you didn't take my challenge to describe how Kerry is significantly different than Bush-hole, I'll conclude that you couldn't make the case. The reason for my refusal to back Kerry should be evident.

[pookastew]

70. You're going to vote

for Bush??!!!?

[saracat]

171. I took your challenge

and you didn't bother to reply!

[mitchum]

59. I started to, but then became distracted by the hum of the refrigerator

ABB

[Scott Lee]

66. I didn't know they could fit "up there"

Can you elaborate?

[mitchum]

82. Didn't polish up that material while you were away, did you?

ABB

[Scott Lee]

89. The fridge? It's self cleaning!

[ozone_man]

120. Self cleaning LOL!

Good to see you back Scott. I guess we can get a few more licks in before the coronation ceremony. ;)

[mitchum]

130. See Scott, it's important to have a shill in the audience...

Trust me on this (I'm the one who gets paid to be funny)

Don't worry o_m, I'm sure you two will get plenty more licks in

[ozone_man]

141. He deserves them,

I wouldn't pick on Kerry or Bush unless they were deserving, and I think both have shown that. We can now look forward to 6 or 8 months of the two of them arguing about who is more Patriotic. I welcome some dialogue from Nader, who might actually talk about something meaningful, instead of war and patriotism. I really think that Bush and Kerry are beholden to the special interests and "the powers that be" that run the country. Dean was too honest, anti-establishment for them, so he was politically assassinated.

[mitchum]

145. I believe that Kerry has also been talking about the wretched...

Bush economy a great deal lately (rather than war and patriotism)

So sorry about Dean's failure to actually appeal to a significant number of Democrats.

[Catholic Sensation]

55. *sigh*

Kerry's late breaking support for ANWR drilling. This was a lovely surprise. In a recent interview on Hardball, Union leader Hoffa said to Matthews that Kerry supports "drilling all over" the US to help solve our oil demand problem - and that included drilling in ANWR. Matthews followed up by asking what Kerry thought was going to be pumped through the ANWR pipelines...water? The environmentalists are going to love this guy.

How many times has this forum gone over this: IT WAS A FUCKING JOKE, NOTICE IT SAYS "(LAUGHTER)" AFTER HOFFA SAYS KERRY IS FOR DRILLING IN ANWR.

Even some of the most rabid anti-Kerry people have conceded this point.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

75. That and pretty much every other point in that post ignores the reality

of Kerry's positions and history.

[saracat]

169. Differences with Dubya

Excuse me?What differences?How about liberal Democrat versus Compassionate "conservative" Republican? How about war hero versus slinking coward? How about a 91% labor support voting record as opposed to killing overtime? How about pro choice versus pro-life? How about an almost perfect voting record on the environment as opposed to to the phony Clear Skies Initiative that pollutes everything? And no child left behind was co authored by Ted Kennedy. Is he no longer a liberal? The worst thing about the bill is that it was never funded and whose fault is that? And the special interests that love Kerry are groups such as the Sierra Club! JK has only taken 1% of his overall contributions from anything that could be called a PAC.He has taken some money from people who list their profession as lobbyist because he wouldn't take their PAC money, and the PAC money was a considerably larger amount. The ANWR drilling was meant to be a joke. It was in poor taste but a joke none the less. I am a preppie with ties to Yale and many of the Mid Atlantic families and your Sand B stories are lunacy! Stop reading the conspiracy theory junk and consider reality before you attempt to misrepresent a candidate !

[oasis]

177. Kerry does NOT support ANWR drilling. Hoffa was joking with Matthews

on Hardball. You might as well retire that piece of fiction.

[saltpoint]

42. I'm sticking with the original post by pookastew.

The venom spat at John Kerry on DU is untoward. It rose in a sour wave after the Iowa and New Hampshire wins by Kerry.

Senator Kerry wasn't my first choice. But I don't begrudge him his victories because I support the Democrats who turned out by the tens of thousands to vote for him.

The argument that Kerry is not any different than Bush is complete horseshit.

If he is the party's nominee, it seems best that we offer support against the incumbent.

[pookastew]

52. You rule.

And you just became my pick for Veep.

[saltpoint]

57. Gosh, thanks --

-- but I'm no good for the ticket because I'm having an affair with Rick Perry!

[pookastew]

65. Oh wait...

...that connects you to Bush! And to S&B! And to the opium trade!

My god, I can't support that.

Sorry--you're off the ticket.

[saltpoint]

72. Darn!

[WitchWay]

58. ...can't support the guy

I hope it isn't the Party's nominee, because I (and so many other people) cannot vote for that kind of nominee.

I don't think it's untoward to question who is behind a presidential candidate, or to question their loyalities. Is it not okay to question whether Kerry has loyalties to the bushes and cheneys and military industrial complexes, and coporate interests?

It's not going to help to turn a blind eye, to ignore important questions, to try to sweep things under the rug -- to ignore voting records, to forgive IWR or Patriot Act votes, to say...
I'm not going to dig to deep because, you know...Anyone but bush.
It's just not okay.

Right now, Kerry has not yet won. He can be made to answer questions, state positions, reveal information...or another candidate can win. But brushing things aside is just denial, and what's worse, this sort of ignorance just hides weaknesses that inevitably Karl Rove will use against Kerry ANYWAYS.

Suddenly, magically...no one seems to care about the war or patriot act. I used to come and look at this board back when everyone was all against the war, where people REFUSED to vote for anyone who gave bush war powers...and I see what has happened and it really is startling and sad.

there is so much compromise, so little serious questioning, such low hopes...when will it end?

[saltpoint]

67. It may NOT end in politics, WitchWay --

-- and so anyone who takes a principled stand like yours is bound to be beaten up by the reality elves. They're a mean bunch. I have the scars to prove it.

I acknowledge and respect your positions, but in the relative tension of U.S. politics -- such as it is -- I want to live in a country where we do not alienate our allies, do not appoint such extreme conservatives to the federal bench, and do not use culture wars to divide our own citizens. You must concede that Bush's trespasses here are grievous and require a voter's response.

Your points -- valid -- against Kerry's candidacy can be considered with points -- also valid -- for his candidacy. Roe v. Wade is one, judges another, and so on. There's always that existential hum running through public life. Pure ideological victories are nowhere found in the history of any nation.

If I had any balls I'd become a Buddhist and live in solitude away from the fray. But I show up to vote each time, and Bush and his cabinet scare me to death.

My dream ticket is Bill Moyers / Julian Bond. I like the demographics, the dedication, and the language.

But Terry hasn't called me up for my input.

[Scott Lee]

69. You've discovered a core problem with the current Dem party.

No conviction. No bravery.

You bring up that suddenly, it's as if the war and patriot act votes Kerry made never happened - in the din of Kerry supporter euphoria. That's precisely why the Dems continue to lose. They are, as a party, (somewhat accurately) perceived as being without conviction. Lord Kerry is a shining example as we speak. Winning is everything, forget the fact that there is a dimes worth of difference between his positions on major issues and Bush-holes.

Do you think many in the rank and file will "get it" anytime soon?

[pookastew]

84. So if your choice in November

is Bush or Kerry, you'll vote for Bush?

[Scott Lee]

88. I shall write in Dean. There is always another choice.

Picking between Bush and Kerry is liking choosing the gun they are going to execute you with.

[pookastew]

94. If the choice in November is Bush or Kerry...

...you're going to write in Dean? You'll knowingly throw your vote away? That's your idea of principle?

Do you live in a swing state?

[bhunt70]

160. If you are gonna write in Dean, why not just write in yourself...

I mean if you are going to vote on principle vote for someone you know you agree with 100%. I mean if you are wasting a vote and all.

[saracat]

170. Winning IS everything!

because we can't afford to lose, and dwelling in lala land is not going to get us to the white House!

[lovedems]

77. Well, I would rather compromise my vote than compromise my

life for the next 4 years AT LEAST. Let's see, I am a woman and the federal courts are about to take another look at ROE V. WADE. If the chimp gets 4 more years then that will be the first of a rush of legislation that his religious fundies don't like. Gee, all of this legislation might make it all the way up to the SCOTUS and guess what, have you seen the ages of the current justices?

Go ahead and vote your concious, it is your vote and you are free to do with it what you want. But if you think the last 3 years have been, you haven't seen anything yet.

Edit: I won't be compromising my vote, for clarity, I support all of our candidates and have since the beginning.

[saltpoint]

83. There you are again, lovedems --

-- with your damned classy avatar & logos. I love 'em.

Also we agree on Roe v. Wade & so do some moderate Republicans.

Bush is going to lose that demographic by a landslide.

[lovedems]

85. Hi GC!

Nice to "see" you again too with your damned classy arguments!

Once again, I find myself agreeing with you!

[WitchWay]

102. ...no compromising anymore....

To be honest, I am sick and tired of the Democratic Party trying to hold my vote hostage with Roe V. Wade.

[pookastew]

80. On what basis

do you question Kerry's "loyalties"?

Do you question the loyalty of anyone who ever belonged to a group you find "elitist"? Not for any actions you can point to, but just for belonging?

Can you list the groups that fall into this category?

[lovedems]

90. I think that people are making the assumption that S&B made the

BFEE what they are. The BFEE are what they are because they are evil pigs who come from an evil family. They are not what they are because of their membership to S&B.

[pookastew]

108. And *I* think...

that you are darned smart.

[lovedems]

121. Why thank you!

And let me take this opportunity to welcome you to DU! :hi:

[WitchWay]

118. KFEE

Oh, really? Here's Kerry's Great Grandfather, a Lincoln Advisor and opium trader who had some great ideas about outsourcing during the Civil War:

http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/johnforbes.html

"During the war Forbes counseled Lincoln and his cabinet, advising on naval preparations and lobbying for a speedy emancipation proclamation. He sent relief to Union prisoners in the Confederate Libby Prison, promoted the Sanitary Commission, supported the Freedman's Commission, served as the first President of the New England Loyal Publication Society, worked for the Committee of Correspondence for the Vigorous Prosecution of the War, formed the Committee of One Hundred for Promoting the Use of Negroes as Soldiers, and was President of the Massachusetts Recruiting Board. The Secretaries of the Treasury and the Navy sent him on a secret mission to England in 1863 to procure funds and to prevent the delivery to the Confederacy of two ironclad ships being built in Liverpool. Through his influence the ships were seized by the British government just before they were to sail.

Forbes had a number of ideas of how to put freed slaves to work. His company attempted in 1862 to replace striking firemen on the Michigan Central Railroad with blacks. After black troops were authorized, he supported equal pay for them. During the draft riots in New York City, Forbes suggested using black troops to maintain order. He promoted a free-labor demonstration plantation at Port Royal, South Carolina."

[lovedems]

127. KFEE?

That is just down right offensive. I am not even going to engage in that kind of BS.

That is Freeperspeak.


Edit: According to that article, he is a distant relative of Ralph Waldo Emerson. Do you want to gripe about that too?

(snip)
In 1865 Forbes's son, William Hathaway Forbes, married Ralph Waldo Emerson's daughter Edith. According to tradition at First Parish in Milton, the Forbes family were prominent members of the parish.
(end)

[WitchWay]

148. Sorry, I meant FFEE

Sorry, I want to apologize, because it isn't the Kerry side of the family (the poor, immigrant side) that the wealth is coming from...it's the Forbes side.

[WitchWay]

152. and yeah, I do want to gripe about Emerson

...cuz I find it interesting what Ralph Waldo's got to say about wealth - maybe this is where Kerry's great grandfather got his ideas about outsourcing -- (are you sure Dubya's not related to this Emerson guy, too?)

http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/transcendentalism/authors/emerson/essays/wealth.html

"It is of no use to argue the wants down: the philosophers have laid the greatness of man in making his wants few; but will a man content himself with a hut and a handful of dried pease? He is born to be rich. He is thoroughly related; and is tempted out by his appetites and fancies to the conquest of this and that piece of nature, until he finds his well-being in the use of his planet, and of more planets than his own. Wealth requires, besides the crust of bread and the roof,--the freedom of the city, the freedom of the earth, travelling, machinery, the benefits of science, music, and fine arts, the best culture, and the best company. He is the rich man who can avail himself of all men's faculties. He is the richest man who knows how to draw a benefit from the labors of the greatest number of men, of men in distant countries, and in past times. The same correspondence that is between thirst in the stomach, and water in the spring, exists between the whole of man and the whole of nature. The elements offer their service to him. The sea, washing the equator and the poles, offers its perilous aid, and the power and empire that follow it,--day by day to his craft and audacity. "Beware of me," it says, "but if you can hold me, I am the key to all the lands." Fire offers, on its side, an equal power. Fire, steam, lightning, gravity, ledges of rock, mines of iron, lead, quicksilver, tin, and gold; forests of all woods; fruits of all climates; animals of all habits; the powers of tillage; the fabrics of his chemic laboratory; the webs of his loom; the masculine draught of his locomotive, the talismans of the machine-shop; all grand and subtile things, minerals, gases, ethers, passions, war, trade, government, are his natural playmates, and, according to the excellence of the machinery in each human being, is his attraction for the instruments he is to employ. The world is his tool-chest, and he is successful, or his education is carried on just so far, as is the marriage of his faculties with nature, or, the degree in which he takes up things into himself."

[pookastew]

132. um...

..which one of those thing are bad?

With the exception of replacing striking firemen, aren't they all the right positions? Or did you support the Confederacy, and oppose letting Blacks fight for the Union?

Are you pulling my leg or are you really missing the point of that history? Blacks wanted to fight.

[WitchWay]

162. Maybe I'm a little ignorant

Could you explain to me the history around all that?

[pookastew]

182. It wasn't a matter of Blacks being "forced" to work...

It was whether they would be allowed to--for pay. They wanted to work, and they wanted to fight in the war. The "progressive" view was to let them, and pay them the same as whites.

You know, the paragraph you cited actually paints a very, very positive view of Forbes:

lobbied for a speedy emancipation proclamation. (to free the slaves)

sent relief to Union prisoners in the Confederate Libby Prison

promoted the Sanitary Commission

supported the Freedman's Commission (to help freed slaves)

worked for the Committee of Correspondence for the Vigorous Prosecution of the War (to end slavery)

formed the Committee of One Hundred for Promoting the Use of Negroes as Soldiers (this was the non-racist position. Racists didn't want to let them fight in the war).

the secret mission to England in 1863 to procure funds and to prevent the delivery to the Confederacy of two ironclad ships being built in Liverpool. (The British were secretly building ships for the Confederacy)

Forbes had a number of ideas of how to put freed slaves to work. (not "force" them to work--allow them to work--for pay. One of the pro-slavery arguments at the time was, "what are we going to do with all the Blacks if they're free?" The hidden message was, we can't let them take white jobs.)

His company attempted in 1862 to replace striking firemen on the Michigan Central Railroad with blacks. (Replacing strikers ain't so nice, but he may have been just firing a shot across the bow of white workers, letting them know he was willing to give their jobs to Blacks so they'd better get used to it. Not use Blacks to work for free, but hire them--for pay. Up til then whites had a lock on the good paying jobs.)

After black troops were authorized, he supported equal pay for them. (See? Even after Blacks were allowed to join the army they were paid less. He opposed that.)

During the draft riots in New York City, Forbes suggested using black troops to maintain order. (Again, this suggests to me he was sending a signal to whites that the free ride on the back of Blacks was ending.)

A very positive history of Forbes. And btw, opium was legal back then.

[WitchWay]

114. accountability

I do question anyone who willingly joins an organization that may cause them to choose the organizations' interest over the Public interest.

There must be accountability, no matter what group that is.

Can you tell me how we can have this accountability?

[lovedems]

134. Well, I intend to hold GWB accountable first because of what he has

done to this country. That is more important to me than holding Kerry accountable for a club he belonged to in college.

Can you say the same? Who do intend to hold accountable?

[pookastew]

183. Asking for accountability is fine..

But why do you presume anyone has chosen "the organizations' interest over the Public interest"? Where's the evidence that Kerry's ever done that? When he was getting his ass shot at in Vietnam? While he was protesting the war? While he was getting a 91 rating from the ADA?

For the record, I don't even think there's any evidence of the Bushes choosing "the organizations' interest"--I think they're out entirely for themselves.

Let me repeat what I asked you before:

Do you question the loyalty or motives anyone who ever belonged to a group you find "elitist" or "anti-democratic"? Not for any actions you can point to, but just for belonging?

Can you list the groups that fall into this category?

I'm asking because I suspect the list would be really long.

Which would lead me to think either you don't trust an awful lot of people, or your premise is wrong.

I was ready to vote for Dean despite his NRA rating--which came by virtue of his actions. But people can't deal with Kerry cause he went to Yale and was in S&B?

Bobby Kennedy went to Harvard and his grandfather was a bootlegger. Is Bobby Kennedy not good enough for DU'ers?

[Eloriel]

74. Believe me, there was PLENTY of "venom" re Kerry well

before Iowa.

However, I have no doubt it may have risen like a "sour wave" afterwards. After all, we began learning about all those cute little dirty, thieving tricks Kerry and his Friends played to WIN Iowa. That made it personl.

[saltpoint]

79. Sorry, Eloriel, but of our announced candidates --

-- I will take any over Bush/Cheney.

It does seem -- honestly -- as if you are nursing a grudge.

I'm sorry.

[Scott Lee]

86. I'd have a grudge too, if my own party helped sabotage

my campaign. Eloriel is quite right on this one. Kerry is filthy and plays with filthy friends to attain his filthy ends. He is the end result of a party establishment that stands for nothing anymore but job security for a the upper political tier.

If you think this is any better than the corrupt BushCo, I suggest your philosophy, and consistency thereof, needs to be reexamined.

[Zomby Woof]

93. my goodness! NO!

None of that has ever happened in the history of politics!! I am appalled. Makes me wish I had seen the light and supported Dean. Oh damn.

And Dean people wonder why the rest of us mock them for their ignorance about the process.

[Scott Lee]

97. Yes, tell us

Show us all the times in US political history in which in the party leadership establishment helped to torpedo one of their own candidates. I'm sure you can conjure up some of that award winning "Zomby twoof" to demonstrate your case, right?

[Zomby Woof]

104. goddamn, dude

Tammany Hall - ever heard of it? Fuck, the historical ignorance of some you people is amazing.

And that is just ONE.

Or not.

[Scott Lee]

109. Or not.

Boss Tweed can roll in his grave, but you sure missed the first one.

The Tammany Hall crap was NOT the Democratic Party as a whole. It was an under the table collusion of the New York City Dem party, the social clubs and the mayors office that hijacked politics in the city up to the Great Depression.

Care to try again? Looks like that dang Zomby Twoof aint operating on all cylinders tonight, is it.

[Zomby Woof]

115. better than no cylinders at all

Which is the case when you actually proved my point. We are not laughing with you, we are laughing at you.

[Scott Lee]

The "Zomby Twoof" peters out and collapses.

What a shocker.

[Zomby Woof]

128. peters out and collapses?

Just like Dean's campaign.

I think I'll go dig up my bookmarks from November where the Dean people were telling the the rest of us to get in line and accept the inevitable. I said back then he was toast, and the Zomby Troof survives.

Dean does not. Vapor.

[WitchWay]

133. ignorance about the process

Yep, and part of playing dirty politics is facing the music when you get caught.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

147. Well isn' that rich

"None of that has ever happened in the history of politics!! I am appalled"
"And Dean people wonder why the rest of us mock them for their ignorance about the process".

What's truely appalling is that most people have accepted "This is politics, business as usual" and are quite comfortable with it. I guess we should all just be good little robots and follow the powers that be because it's far easier to be a robot and accept whatever is dealt from those powers that be than it is to put forth the effort required to actually think for yourself and work for change. I would say that is the true definition of ignorance, but I believe it falls under stupidity. I call it stupidity instead of ignorance because I believe ignorance is when one lacks the knowledge to know any better. Stupidity is when one has the knowlegde and knows better but does it anyway.

[XanaDUer]

96. Please elaborate, with proof

these so-called "filthy" tricks to attain his "filthy ends".

[Scott Lee]

101. We can start with Toricelli

You remember Swoop Toricelli dont you? Ethics in the toilet hatchet friend to Lord Kerry? Wellllll it turns out that ol Swoop was doing some ad favors for Kerry under the convenient auspices of a "progressive" group that got together long enough to concoct that outrageous "Ossama" ad against Dean a while ago. I'm sure you remember. Yah, that dirty little trick.

Can you connect the dots between Swoop and Lord Kerry? I'll bet you can if you try.

[XanaDUer]

103. No need to have such a rude tone...

Please continue.

[Scott Lee]

110. Care to address the Toricelli/Kerry example?

Or are you tongue tied?

[XanaDUer]

113. No

In what way would you like it addressed?

[Scott Lee]

116. Can you try a response? Like, with more than one word?

That would be a good start.

[XanaDUer]

125. Well,

I will need you to elaborate, with proof, on your original assertions of what exactly happened with the "filthy" tricks.

You made the accusations. Spewing some names is not providing proof.

Thanks.

[Zomby Woof]

111. good

I am damn glad Dean was brought down by whatever means were necessary. Was it Torricelli? Good! Was it the media? Good! Was it a secret plot by Skull & Bones and Dennis Kucinich? Even better! Was it the voters? Nawwww! Not them, unless they are sheeple of course...

He is gone, he is toast, and he is vapor, and all you can do is be snarky and condescending to high-caliber posters like Liberty Chick while the rest of us dance on his corpse. ;-)

You lose, Dean people. From first to worst in a matter of weeks. Vapor. I am enjoying it, because dammit, we worked hard for it.

Kepp dragging Dean's name in here and I will keep reminding you what a sorry and piss-poor candidate he was.

[XanaDUer]

122. No one "brought" Dean down but his own sweet self...

But it probably makes some feel better to think there is a giant conspiracy behind his downfall.

Dean was not ready for Prime Time. As you know, ZW, that's politics.

[Scott Lee]

124. Dean's "down"? Like, did he disappear?

Or is he at the helm of something a lot more important than the usual Dem/Rethug tug of war?

think hard now....

[XanaDUer]

129. No

To his credit, he said he would back the Dem nominee.

But, he is no longer leading in the polls. So, I suppose he is "down", relative to "up", or leading right now.

[Scott Lee]

155. Dean defies convention. Dont forget that.

He hasn't stopped, and neither has the movement he helped start, although the Dem party establishment is doing its damndest to arrest that one.

[Zomby Woof]

131. long after he is forgotten

Harold Stassen will still overshadow him in the annals of futility.

[XanaDUer]

136. Harold Stassen?!

That's a good one.

[Zomby Woof]

137. I have a question

How many google hits is Harold Stassen going to get in the next 15 minutes? ;-)

[XanaDUer]

138. A LOT!

:)

[indigo32]

143. Yeah thats right

we're all a bunch of juvenile idiots.

[Scott Lee]

156. Don't sweat 'em. They been gulped by the establishment

And they will be shat out like little turdlets once the Party Establishment has gotten their way. It's a cruel trick of nature.

[Zomby Woof]

159. but Dean has K-Streeters on his staff

So he is the establishment too. Outsiders don't weasel their way into the governor's mansion of even a quaint parcel of land like Vermont by being an outsider. The entire credo that his was an anti-establishment/DLC/DNC campaign is pure myth and fantasy. How so-called progressives can even believe he is their savior for a minute defies logic and common sense. Suckers.

Dean's "revolution" is vaporous, much like his campaign.

I should say he had DC K Street insiders. Because he is vapor. Gone. Toast without the mayo... :nuke:

[Nicholas_J]

144. Dean?

Dean who?

[Zomby Woof]

161. The Vaporous One

I hear he will be returning to private practice so he can resume popping the pimples off of Montpelier teens. Maybe a drive every week or two up to Burlington for the college kids there. Yahoo.

[pookastew]

185. You're presuming a causal relationship...

...between taking money from Torricelli's group and the running of those ads.

The media planted that idea in people's minds. Clever trick to smear Kerry.

Kerry did take money from them, and they did run ads against Dean. But that doesn't mean Kerry ran or supported the ads.

Gephart's campaign was behind those ads. It was Gephardt who had to go for broke in Iowa. He was swinging for the fences because it was do or die for him there. Kerry would have been psyched to take a second-place finish to NH.

By the time people were talking about who paid for the ads Gephardt was no threat to Bush--Kerry was. There was nothing to be gained in blaming Gephardt, so they smeared it over to Kerry.

If you go back and read the coverage of that you'll see how sneaky the media was about it. They never said "Kerry had something to do with the ads". They said "Kerry took money from this group", then they said "This group ran those anti-Dean ads"--knowing people would presume a connection.

They never actually made the connection, so they couldn't be called on it.

You know what killed the doctor in Iowa and NH? Saying he'd reverse ALL the tax cuts. It wasn't any of the "party insider" s*** that's being blamed here. He said the words you just can't say to voters.

I know he had a great point about the effects of the tax cuts--but that's not what voters heard. They heard "repeal all the tax cuts".

[Enough is Enough]

192. I don't know anything about Swoop Toricelli, but...

In the beginning I favored Dean because of some of his ideas. All information I learned about Dean was through his website. As time wore on, I became more and more disenchanted and distrustful of him--just a gut feeling that more & more I disliked him. I never saw any ads against him. There was something that I found insincere about him (besides the fact that he would never respond to any questions I asked him, but was always asking for donations). Before the Iowa primary I had already decided I could not vote for Dean in the primary (note: our primary has not come up yet). I have not made up my mind 100% on who I will vote for, but if Dean is still on our ballot, I will not vote for him. Now, if he had won the party's nomination, I would have to "suck up my pride" and vote for him because I DO NOT WANT ANOTHER 4 YEARS WITH BUSH!

[saltpoint]

98. In a constitutional republic --

-- folks may vote as they choose. A majority have chosen Senator Kerry. It's clear you don't care for the man.

Pick someone else.

[pookastew]

100. IF Kerry is so "filthy"

...how did he end up with such a high rating from the ADA?

Are they in on the conspiracy, too?

[Scott Lee]

105. a conspiracy of filth?

Not really - just a business as usual politician pulling business as usual filth.

Oh, and remember - Castro was nominated for a peace prize but that don't necessarily make him Gandhi now, does it?

[pookastew]

119. Oh great....

...now you're slamming Castro.

Well, I won't stand here and have both Fidel and John insulted.

Nite nite from EST

www.201k.com

[XanaDUer]

126. Bye , pooka

Don't be a stranger.

[adadem]

106. Or the

League of Conservation Voters?

[Scott Lee]

112. Or the Sierra Club?

Oh woops....his late breaking love for drilling in the ANWR kind put the shitter on that one, never mind...

[dawn]

99. I totally agree.

nt

[arwalden]

107. I Don't Think Anyone TRULY Believes Those Things...

what's happening is that they are BAITING you... trolling for a flame-fest. It's puerile antisocial revenge-driven behavior.

-- Allen

[Samantha]

117. It's not that I don't Love Kerry -- I simply don't like him

One of my first posts at the Democratic Underground (about three years ago) was railing against the prominent Dems who remained silent during the Election 2000 controversy. A primary target in my complaints was John Kerry. Kerry walked down some steps and looked into a CNN camera, responding to a question from a reporter asking if he, as a Senator, had been asked to sign the petition of the Congressional Black Caucus protesting the slate of electors from Florida. No, I was not asked to sign the petition, and I wouldn't have signed had I been asked. His words at that time SCORCHED my political soul. I knew when he gave this answer he was planning a run himself in 2004. He calculated he could easily prevail over an incumbent Bush* but never prevail over an incumbent Gore. Kerry, in looking out for his own self-interests, failed to champion the voting interests of those he had sworn to represent. So did a number of other Dems. I said at that time I would never vote for Kerry because he had betrayed the Democratic voters, all 51 million of us, whose votes were negated by the Supreme Court.

Over these past months, I have watched Kerry go into various contorted positions trying to walk down the middle of the road centering himself to appeal to both sides of the voting street. In that walk, he has failed to stand up for our overtime protection, failed to thwart the Medicare reform, failed to oppose the tax cuts, failed to oppose the Iraq war, failed to oppose the Patriot Act, failed to stand up to George Bush*, in short, he simply failed. Although he is fond of reviewing his battlefield heroics of 30 years ago, we in Washington are fond of saying, what have you done for me lately. In John Kerry's case, the answer is simply nothing. His heroics on the political battlefield of late have simply been AWOL inasmuch as his postering to protect his political future have precluded him from taking any partisan stands. Two weeks ago, he reminded us he led the battle against drilling in ANWAR. Last week, he implied to the Teamsters he would support laying the pipeline there. Whatever he has to say or do to win election, even if it means speaking out of both sides of his mouth, he will do.

I have no problem with his attending an Ivy League School ... he's just not my political cup of tea. I will never vote for him. He didn't stand up for my right to vote in 2000 so he should not ask for my vote at this time.

Postscript: he recently said when he is elected, one of the first things he will do is appoint James Baker to a diplomatic post to try to effect better foreign relations. That's the same James Baker of I-delivered-Florida-for-George Bush* fame, the same James Baker of "we've counted all the votes, and recounted all the votes, and everytime we have George Bush* won." The truth of the matter is the State of Florida didn't evenly fully conduct the full automatic recount as required by its State Constitution; only 15 counties out of 67 truly recounted its votes in that automatic recount; the balance simply doublechecked their math. And Baker knew that when he made his statement.

Al Gore recently said the only way Democrats can win elections is to distinguish ourselves from the Republicans. As far as I can see, John Kerry has failed to do that as well.

[Scott Lee]

123. Oh, he's a fine individual

For a self serving, botox sucking, insider special interest money taking Bush enabler, he does quite well!

[GodHelpUsAll2]

151. Ever notice

How proof is always demanded? You have no proof is always exclaimed. I need a link, is always asked for. I know these people can use a computer, they are here. Do they do any of their own research? EVER???? If the smoke alarms goes off in the house, do you jump online and ask for proof or a link to where it tells you tocall 911 and get the hell out of the house because it's ablaze?

[Scott Lee]

153. It's a stalling technique because they have no argument

And yeah, it can be maddeningly hilarious.

[saltpoint]

135. Pookastew, your original post stands strong --

-- against the assault of Kerry-haters.

I'd stay and see how this all turns out, but I'm out of here. Rick Perry, Paris Hilton, and three or four transgendered hookers from Baton Rouge just showed up, and I'm going to be distracted until at least 60 Minutes tomorrow evening.

Some of the individual postings at the end of this thread in particular prove your point. The anger is so virulent that the honey in my refrigerator coagulated.

And I had PLANS for that honey tonight.

For what it's worth, I liked your post a lot and I think you nailed it down. Thanks & good wishes.

[indigo32]

139. Here's what I don't get

on this thread... we've got basically ONE Kerry Hater (OK make that 2)...
and a Dean Hater of equal virulence....and not ONE of those posts says anything relating to Kerrys wealth really. I just don't see where this thesis holds up.

[Scott Lee]

157. It's not about reason. It's about Kerry.

And his insider "turn" at running for Pres.

[pookastew]

184. Thanks!

You're back on the ticket!

[saltpoint]

187. Great!

[XanaDUer]

142. Well, I guess there is no real proof then,

other than naming some names, Torecelli, Osama, and the often-time mentioned "ads", allegedly with Kerry in the background, but no proof.

That won't cut it.

Anyway, good night to all.

It's been an interesting thread.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

149. I think the symbolism is powerful and important. I want to win and

I don't want to leave much to chance.

[indigo32]

150. Wait a minute

only Dean supporters are supposed to be pickin on poor Kerry.

[Scott Lee]

158. You'll lose if you "win" this way

Because with Edwards or Kerry, you get finely varying versions of Bush-hole. Go back and comb through all the major difference those two men have with Bush on the major issues. Then drink to ease the pain.

[AP]

165. Psst. They let EVERYONE vote for president, not just CA and NY.

The person who wins will be someone who appeals to a lot of people in the middle.

Nonetheless, I'm totally confident that when you scratch the surface of Edwards's apparent moderation, underneath you find someone deeply concerned that the progressive project is fulfilled.

I just saw Elizabeth Edwards tell a crowd how much Clark Kerr meant to her. That might mean nothing to you, but it says a great deal to me.

[bushwakker]

164. Dean was a child of privilege

a fact ignored by his backers here.

[WitchWay]

167. Dean was also a child of privelege

Dean, indeed, was a child of privelege...

He was in an exclusive frat at Yale -- Zeta Psi, whose alum include Les Aspin, Pete Wilson, and Gray Davis.

Dean tried to get the fraternity to open up its membership, and tried to open the frathouse's basement as a coffeeshop. But it didn't work out, so he left in protest.

Maybe Kerry could do the same for Skull and Bones, since its just a "frat".

[bushwakker]

179. I admire Dean

but his backers apply a double standard to other candidates. In a GE election he would be slaughtered by the GOP and their media minions with stories that he was a rich boy skiing in Colorado during Vietnam. Is it fair? No - but that's what would happen.

[clarknyc]

168. So was FDR. So was JFK (the original one).

A child has no say regarding the circumstances to which he or she is born. The important thing is how they choose to lead their life.

[mstrsplinter326]

172. Nutz topic

I can't believe the response here. You'd think people's lively hoods were just called into question.

Cutting through hundreds of posts' worth of information, the truth is that upbringing does affect your view, but does not determine who you are. So in essence, we shouldn't be able to discuss this point at all

[saracat]

173. In Defense of the Rich

I went to prep school and I went to a good college. In fact my Father grew up with the Kennedy's. I even dated a Kennedy once.And guess what ? We don't have any money anymore.I don't even have health insurance since my husband lost his job. I will not apologize for my upbringing, and consider myself less than noble because of it. I am tired of the reverse snobbism.And you know what?I can't stand phony populism as touted by Dean.He wears cheap suits when he has no reason to. It reminds me of Bush saying he doesn't own a tux and had to rent one. And his wife not being a "things" person because she doesn't want anything. That is only because they can afford to buy anything they want. I wouldn't be a things person either if I could afford to get what I need. Trashing Kerry or anyone else for their background while praising hypocrisy is the height of self righteousness.

[chocolateeater]

188. So Rich People are hypocrites if

they don't live like Rich People? It's a free country, Dean can buy any kind of suit he wants. If the Deans want to place less emphasis on material things, that is their prerogative, as I said it's a free country. Maybe they want to leave some money to ther children to give them some financial security. Maybe they give some of their money to charity.
Is John Kerry a hypocrite because he didn't have to go fight in Vietnam?

[saracat]

190. Rich People

are hypocrites if they pretend to relate to the poor!And guise themselves in a costume to illustrate their identification.Dean claims to be "one of you". Well, he isn't and he will never be. John Kerry doesn't disguise the fact that he is rich. He doesn't play act the pauper. JK volunteered for Vietnam. He didn't even wait to be drafted.He didn't have anything to evade. He made a choice, therefore he is not a hypocrite.
I find it interesting that the first job Dean had, after bumming around on the slopes, was as a Wall Street Investor in his Dad's firm.Obviously , his first interest was money. He and Judy are both now doctors.I really don't think it is necessary for them to worry about their kids "financial security".
What I don't get is why Dean doesn't loosen up the purse strings and do something constructive like buy a hospital for the uninsured.But I forgot, they aren't things people and have everything they want.
And did anyone bother to check how Mr. fiscal responsibility spent your 50 million dollars? Check out Newsweek. The non things candidate blew an inordinate amount on chocolate, cheese, entertainment, and dining out!

[chocolateeater]

193. I guess we'll just have to have a difference of opinion.

Because in my opinion I haven't seen Dean pretend to be anything else other than a doctor/governor running for President. As for the supposed costuming, the man has been a self-described cheapskate at least since he went to Yale.
There is also the misconception that his dad owned a firm on Wall Street. He worked for two firms: Harris Upham, and Reynolds & Company(which was bought out by Dean Witter in 1978). Dean himself worked at Clark,Dodge & Company when he was on Wall Street.
He is rich, but not as rich as Senator Kerry, and certainly not rich enough to afford a hospital for uninsured people.
As for where all the money went, national campaigns are very expensive things to run. And if you look closely at the Newsweek article the expenses for chocolate, cheese, entertainment, and dining out were related to fund raising.

[saracat]

195. I guess we will have to have a difference of opinion.

It just irks me that people will make a major issue over money and class and use it as a negative when it comes to John Kerry but the same people give Howard Dean a pass when he comes from exactly the same class structure and financial background.And I do feel that Dean pretends to be affiliated with people that he cannot relate to. Kerry is at least what he is. As for the campaign money, no other campaign has ever blown so much money on such nonsense in so little time.And other candidates have fundraisers too, and somehow manage to be more efficient in their budgeting. I only mentioned that to illustrate that the spoiled rich kid surfaced when it came to other peoples money. He wasn't a cheapskate when he had donor money to spend!

[5thGenDemocrat]

191. "Is John Kerry a hypocrite because he didn't have to go fight in Vietnam?"

Not at all. As it turned out, Dean didn't have to go fight in Vietnam, either.
John
Vail's gain was Vietnam's loss, I am sure.

[chocolateeater]

194. Of coarse Kerry is not a hypocrite for fighting in Vietnam,

any more than Dean is for going on with his life after receiving his 1-Y classification. I think you misunderstood my post.

[Eurobabe]

175. you forgot to mention

Democrat from birth, that is another snobby qual. I heard while Clark was running.

[molly]

176. This reverse snobbery has been going on at DU

for years. We're all supposed to be destitute to have any value. Just because someone has wealth and position does not indicate that they lack compassion and empathy. The reverse can be said - obviously.

[mmonk]

178. politics sometimes is about

making an issue out of a non-issue.

[bitchkitty]

180. Went to the same college -

you're right, that shouldn't matter.

What does matter is that they're both members of an exclusive club that excludes minorities and women.

Now that matters, at least to me, and to anybody who pays attention.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

181. yet they both agree on class war and "free trade"

is that because they are both wealthy aristocrats? Maybe?

But yeah, poor rich people bear the brunt of so much snobbery in the modern Democratic party. Think about it - if the poor Dems are going to get all uppity, maybe the rich should just join the Republicans anyway? I wonder how the poor Dems would feel then? With all of their selfless devotion to the lower classes, this reverse snobbery is like sneezing in the hours d'oeveres. Don't forgot all that moveon money came from George Soros.