Obama plan: reward teachers, lengthen school time

[babylonsister]

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/11/obama_plan_rewards_for_teacher.html

Obama plan: reward teachers, lengthen school time

by Christi Parsons

Barack Obama is planning to unveil an education plan today that would make affordable pre-school programs more widely available and offer pay incentive programs for effective teachers.

It would also allow schools to lengthen the teaching day or the school year. The $18 billion annual program would be offset by savings and cuts in federal agencies, including NASA.

According to the Obama camp, the idea about teacher incentives is not the same thing as merit pay, a concept long opposed by teachers' unions. It would not be tied to test scores and would be available to districts that wanted to "innovate" with new programs.

The cost of the early education plan would come partly from delaying the NASA Constellation Program for five years, cutting costs in the government procurement process and auctioning surplus federal property. The Obama plan also cites "closing the CEO pay deductibility loophole" and ending the Iraq war as other ways to pay for the program.

[boricua79]

1. as a teacher,

i'm not too hot on lenghtening the school day. I like my school day just fine, thank you very much.

[Mass]

2. I understand that you are not for it as a teacher, but there have been now many studies showing

that a longer school day, with more breaks and more time to teach, would be better for kids.

[boricua79]

10. you know what would really help

Not having to teach to standards, and being more free to actually inculcate a critical outlook to thinks (as opposed to force-feeding them national propaganda and national myths). More money for the resources and tools needed in the job would also help.

Alas, without that...we could always cut teacher's vacations and make their school day longer, and make them work harder for the same pay. THAT'll work! :sarcasm:

[Mass]

12. How is that going to give my kids breaks throughout the day?

I have no issue with that, but taking the children's and teens' rythm into account would be great as well.

Sorry, after 10 weeks of vacations, my kids are bored. After 3 months of school with breaks and recess, they are tired. And they are probably not the only ones. May be spreading school year better throughout the year would do some good?

[boricua79]

13. you may have a point regarding what's best for the kids

but you also have to take into account what the adults (teachers) want. And if you make conditions negative for teachers regarding vacations and other benefits to the job, you might lose a lot of people to other careers.

Why would I take a lower salary and harder work and not get the vacations and benefits...and then stay there. Why wouldn't I rather work at a different career?

Yes, yes...we all our kids and many of us have idealistic reasons for being teachers...but you know what...if my job was made harder, or my benefits were cut, I'd leave teaching and do something that allows me to enjoy my own life as well. Teachers are not drones. I use the summer vacations for side-projects that I wish to involve myself in. I enjoy the vacations as they are.

As for the kids being bored, they need parents who involve them in activities that keep them busy, learning new skills, character, discipline, and other positive traits. If they're bored, they're not using their time productively and that's where a parent needs to step in. I use to summer YMCA camps when I was a kid. I use to play little league, swim team, track, and basketball, art classes and I enjoyed all of those.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Good point

If they lengthen my work day and my work year, they are going to have to pay me a ton of extra money. What other business would get away with doing that to their employees?

If I work summer school, I am paid by the hour. My hourly pay is close to $40. So if you want me to work summers, pay me $40 an hour and I am there. Otherwise, forget it.

[Mother Of Four]

73. No real need to lengthen the school day...

Why not have bonuses to teachers willing to learn different methods, for instance

http://www.montessori.edu/

In Anchorage, (I was raised there) Denali Elementary has a Montessori program open to the public. You can have your child in standardized classes, or Montessori.

I wish with all my heart they would pay bonus pay to teachers willing to learn that style of teaching, and bonuses to the schools like Denali that allow you as a parent to have a CHOICE.

This baloney down here (NC) about the EOG...2/3'ds of the school year is prepping the kids for a TEST for heavens sake. They get so much crammed at them and the teachers are worked so hard that both students and teachers/mentors are exhausted by the end of the day.

I loved having my children have the same teacher 3 years running. I miss it. By giving the teacher that time with the children, allowing them to learn and grow in an environment that is engaging, in a system that encourages SUPPORT from the parents, not only do the children benefit wonderfully, but the teacher does as well. In NC the only Montessori schools are "private" and even then they only use the name not follow the spirit of the teaching.

Group activity, social skills, learning through aid of peers, smaller classes (12-16) teaching children based ON the children and not some factory style "They must know THIS and THIS...who cares if they actually retain it?"

Teaching is a CIVIL SERVICE, it's underpaid..the classes are too large...many of the schools are falling apart, kids falling through the cracks. My eldest son's best friend, our "surrogate son" came to me and asked me to help him read because these teachers are put in a room with sometimes as many as 25-30 kids, he ended up making it to 12th grade with a 2 grade reading level. But heck..if he can scrape by the EOG...who cares right? The standards have been met. Woe betide the teacher who speaks out against it, because if you have been teaching a long time its cheaper to just hire someone right out of college for less money who won't "rock the boat" and let the "troublemaker" go.

We trust teachers with our children, why can't we pay them for that duty?

SO much authority has been stripped from these wonderful people who we believe in to be the guardians of our kids. Parents calling the school because lil tommy got in trouble, yelling at the teacher saying "Not MY son" after he stood on his chair and threw something at the other students.

I wholeheartedly believe in bonuses, but lengthening the school day/year is not the answer. Bonuses for those fantastic teachers like my daughters 4th grade one who recognized what I was ready to pull my hair out about. She has Aspergers Syndrome, very high functioning. The only stunted growth she has is emotional. Guess what...they diagnosed her with ADD and wanted her on heavy duty medication. This teacher stepped in, helped so much...got us in classes, and worked with a psychologist to get my daughter on track. WITHOUT removing her from the general population. My daughter doesn't have crying fits anymore, and is a happy child who is consistently on the A honor roll or presidential list.

That teacher deserves a BONUS for taking her own time over the summer and becoming educated about special needs children. Learning about Downs, Autism and Aspergers.

Wow...heheh..I didn't expect to write so much. I'm very passionate about supporting our teachers, you should have seen the look of utter astonishment when I went in for the last parent meeting-- They had been doing them off and on through the previous weeks and you could tell they were on tip toes trying not to offend.

I leaned forward in my chair and looked the main person right in the eye, after he had said "If it's alright with you I mean, really we can change this and this...."

I told him (This is about near as I can remember) "Look, you go to college for a reason. You've spent years with children, you work here..this is YOUR school. When my children are here it's under your authority. You've given me no reason to think anything bad, you're not making my children feel bad. They are flourishing and making good grades without getting into any trouble. I want to be perfectly clear in telling you that you have my full support with what you want to do, and if you need my permission on anything...just send an info sheet home, I'll read it...and if I have questions I'll call ok?"

The poor man looked shocked, and turned to look at the special needs counselor who was grinning ear to ear. He said "Thank you very very much" so softly it made me want to cry.

Teachers take abuse from the system, they are NOT paid enough, they don't get respect, they take abuse from parents and getting support is an uphill battle.

Yes...I am the brownie making, supply bringing, microwave giving (Couple days ago brought in a Microwave for my littlest's class, they had none in the cafeteria and about 1/2 the kids bring things that taste better heated. They also use it for experiments.)"You do what you need to do so long as my kiddo thrives" Mom that drives the local school kiddos, and watches out the window while the bus comes for the others.

(takes a breath) Woooosh...ok ...I'm calm now.

I guess my point to this whole rant is this. If our schools are struggling NOW, why on EARTH are you going to load even MORE a burden on the back of the guardians for our future? Our TEACHERS guardian our kids and help teach them, and our KIDS are our future. We teach them here at home, but think of how much time they spend at school. During the school year, if you take out sleeping, playing with friends, dinner, showers etc... our teachers are with them more than we as parents are.



/rant off

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Do you have a link to those studies?

I am a teacher and I disagree. The school day is long enough. Kids need recreation and we have taken that away. I would support extensive after school programs so kids can get involved in sports and other extra curriculars. I also support lengthening the school year. But a school day full of academics and getting kids ready for a test is really long enough as it is.

[tblue37]

39. Tell it, Sister! n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. I am so over these false talking points!!

Sheesh that's why we are dealing with NCLB. We were convinced schools were failing - when the vast majority were NOT. And the reality is they want to cut off funding for public schools so they can pay for their funky charter schools and vouchers. And damnit, they are winning!!!

I have posted this before but it never hurts to post it again. Attention all who believe our schools are failing and we need to "fix" them, read THIS and see how these evil people have screwed our kids: http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/10/1/105329/697

[tblue37]

82. They are trying to get the same sort of "accountability" on the college

level now, you know. Eventually we will all be "teaching to the test."

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. Did you know they are now testing Head Start kids?

Yes, standardized tests for 3 and 4 year olds.

Of course, since bush vetoed Head Start funding, who knows whether we will even have Head Stat after this year.

[LeFleur1]

103. More Breaks in a Long Day?

Elementary Teachers don't get breaks. If they are not on playground duty or some other duty they are planning or they have meetings to attend. Meetings usually held by some highly paid administrator who has nothing else to do.
Lengthening the school day will not help the children unless more money is spent on
aides and on their training. I doubt that is going to happen.
8:00 a.m. (usually earlier donated time) to 8:45...meetings/planning.
Try working from 8:45 until 3:15 with children, with a half hour break at lunch...if you don't have to spend time with some student for some reason. Bathrooms? Run to the teacher next door and tell her/him you MUST go and will be right back, please watch the children. Recess? Recess duty or get in line for materials. From 3:00 until 3:30 probably a meeting. From 3:30 until 4:00 when it's allowed time to go home, pack up your stuff, take it home. 8:00 to God Knows When at night at home, check papers, plan, go over goals for individual children and how they are doing. Try to get enough sleep to start all over the next day.

I'm not talking college professors with aides to help them. I'm talking about an elementary school teacher's day.

There are great rewards in teaching, but lengthening the day will only help parents with babysitter costs unless big changes are made.

[babylonsister]

3. Maybe he's trying to tackle the fact that the US is woefully

behind education-wise compared to many countries. I don't see that as a bad thing, even though teachers may have to forfeit some of their summer vacation to accomplish this.

[Justyce]

8. The summer vacation here was about 2-1/2 months this year.

I really don't see why it needs to be any shorter than that. However, I think they could stand to streamline the curriculum. Think of the time wasted on preparing for standardized tests alone -- especially here in Texas after bush got through with us...

[Mass]

11. Well, my kids had no recess from september to december except for

3 days at thanksgiving and a few holidays and half day for PT conferences. In addition, they get 25 mn for lunch in MS and no specific break in HS (let's hope you have an free period to eat your lunch).

I would definitively give at least 2 of these summer weeks for them to have a decent lunch time to unwind, as well as vacations throughout the year. Why are we stressing our kids this way. (and the vacations were like that from before NCLB. What changed was that they had more PE before that).

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Our kids get no recess at all

Last year they got no Science.

Let the dumbing down of America begin! :sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. That's false

Don't fall for that argument. Here's the truth: in the USA we test all of our kids. In the foreign countries we are being compared to, they screen the kids out (some start in kindergarten) so by the time they test their high school kids, they are only testing the ones deemed eligible for college.

It's like comparing the test scores of the most exclusive college prep school in your city to the test scores of the high school that serves the worst part of the inner city. Of course the prep school does better.

It's an apples and oranges argument.

Other factors make this an invalid comparison too. For example, unless you test kids in the exact same circumstances with the exact same variables (like native language) it is statistically invalid to compare test scores. Standardized testing means standardized environments.

The right wing started this bullshit talking point back in the 80s under Reagan and that asshole Bennett who was Sec of Education. Their agenda was privatization (vouchers and charter schools). This talking point resulted in No Child Left Behind and I know you know that was a HUGE mistake.

So PLEASE don't fall for their bullshit. I know you are smart enough to see past it. :)

[KittyWampus]

91. Would you do me a HUGE favor and confirm that it's possible to track kids performance

from early on and basically have two tracks- trade school and college.

And test scores would be reflected on those two tracks rather than combining them.

Is that what you were saying they do in Europe?

Cause back when I was in school, graduated HS in 80, there were GED kid, BOCES kids and us college kids.

We has BOCES program where kids went to different trade classes (mechanics, restuarant, hairdressing etc).

Isn't that done now?

[Justyce]

4. No kidding - Kids already spend plenty of time in school each day...

And I don't see why the school year needs to be any longer either....

[wtmusic]

5. My kids have so many days off it's a joke

This holiday, that holiday, teachers' conferences, early dismissal. The list goes on.

I have all the sympathy in the world for teachers when it comes to pay, resources, and class size. But what other career gives you the summer off? That's where my tears end. Back to work, like the rest of us.

[Mass]

6. Congresspeople ?\nt

[wtmusic]

7. Yep...I'm all for pulling the plug on that too nt

[boricua79]

9. ok...you take the job then?

Have fun trying to be daddy/mommy/psychiatrist/securityguard/policeofficer/teacher all in one.

YOu take away the vacations and holidays, and make school longer, and you'll see how many people sign up to be teachers, considering the pay as it is.

We'll see where education is after that.

[wtmusic]

17. Read the original post

"Reward teachers". That implies pay would be better than it is.

[boricua79]

18. maybe, or maybe not

Maybe I'm not willing to take a 3,000 or 5,000 pay raise and cut my vacation time. Maybe I value my vacation time more than a measly $5,000 pay raise.

That should be up to the teachers.

[wtmusic]

19. Maybe it should be up to what's best for kids

and teachers should be compensated accordingly.

If the pay is good enough and you're still not willing, fine. They'll find someone who is.

[boricua79]

20. good luck...

good luck finding teachers with Master's Degrees willing to endure cuts in their benefits.

You think finding teachers is like going to your local unemployment agency? You're out of your mind if you do.

Being a teacher requires finding people who have trained for YEARS in their field, who have advanced degrees, AND who have a high motivation to endure a lot of social crap through their way. That's a hard combination to find. And the only thing that keeps ME going are:

1) the stability of the job
2) The smiles on the faces of the few kids I do "save" or "influence"
3) the vacations and benefits

You take one of those away, and I'm gone.

And take issue with your "what's best for the kids" comment. I do what's best for the kids. I teach right/wrong to them, teach them manners, teach them civilized behavior, teach them discipline and hardwork...I'm the father many of them Don't have (I live in a predominantly low-income Latino district). You wanna find another educated, concerned, involved Latino male who has advanced degrees, is bilingual, highly trained, and motivated to replace me? Go ahead.

[wtmusic]

22. good riddance...

There is a wicked sense of entitlement among teachers these days -- they tend to think they're irreplaceable. I take issue with your attitude that the employees get to run the workplace.

My job doesn't work that way, and neither does yours. If I'm paying your salary (and I am) and it's a good one, I'll be damned if I'm going to let you determine how long you get to work or even what's best for kids. If you don't see a conflict of interest - that your tenacious grip on your goddamn summer vacation somehow benefits my kids -- you're out of YOUR mind.

[boricua79]

23. nah...

uninformed voters get to run the school, right? Nobody knows better about schools, the daily life of teachers than...posters on DU who aren't teachers, right?

You ain't paying shit...you're paying the bombs that are falling in Iraq (which is the problem with our government these days). Don't take that "I own you" attitude with me. I pay the very same taxes you do, and in the state where I actually work, so I'm paying my own salary...thank you very much!

The only one displaying any arrogance here is you...thinking that you get to dictate how I work, what conditions, and that I'd better like it because you pay taxes.

Take a ticket and line up, cause there's a lot of other parents with equal claim to having a voice in what they would LIKE to see in their schools.

You should be thankful there are actually people LIKE me in education who foregoed a career in the corporate world to try to lift some kids out of poverty consciousness and underdevelopment. I love my kids and I do a lot for them. You have absolutely no idea whether or not I'm a good teacher, or whether my particular program has won awards or not. You have no clue at all. What are YOU doing for my kids?

[Mother Of Four]

76. Please read my reply #73...

There are people on these boards who aren't teachers who do support you and your coworkers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Have you not heard about the teacher shortage?

Yes we are irreplaceable. And it's about time.

[wtmusic]

44. There is a teacher shortage because there is a money shortage.

If teachers were paid for the amount of work they do, bingo. No shortage.

But don't think for a second that anyone is irreplaceable. And that's a good thing, in any line of work.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. It's really not that simple.

Sorry you think it is. NCLB and the baby boomers who are now retiring are huge factors. If we doubled the number of education majors today we still wouldn't have enough teachers to meet the need.

I am also wondering why you don't become a teacher. You seem to think it is such an easy line of work. Most states have alternative certification programs and just about anyone with a college degree can become a teacher.

[wtmusic]

52. Very few teachers in public school are education majors

They are liberal arts majors who got a credential. You seem to argue against your own point with "most states have alternative certification programs and just about anyone with a college degree can become a teacher". If the money was there, the teachers would be there in a heartbeat.

I wouldn't teach because it doesn't pay enough (back to my original point), not because it's easy. Although I put in more hours than any one I know, including teachers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. You have no idea what you are talking about

I have far more than a 'credential'. I have a bachelors degree and a masters degree in EDUCATION. So does every other teacher I work with. And so does every other teacher in my district.

Look up 'highly qualified teachers' under NCLB. Even the teachers with alternative certification are required to get masters degrees in education. The idea that teachers are liberal arts majors who got a credential was false the first time I heard it and it is illegal now.

[wtmusic]

56. Wha?

"most states have alternative certification programs and just about anyone with a college degree can become a teacher"? Now it's a master's degree in education? I'm confused.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. I'm not surprised

Alternative certification means you get to teach while you go to school taking education classes. You keep going to school until you have a masters degree.

On edit: the masters degree is in EDUCATION

[wtmusic]

60. No teacher that I know of in my kids' middle school

has a degree in education. So I can't explain the discrepancy but I will say your ad homs would be more characteristic coming from your students. :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. You have asked every teacher in that school what their degree is in?

Bullshit.

Even if you were telling the truth, as I already told you, No Child Left Behind requires 'highly qualified teachers'. Look it up. Educate yourself. And fear no more. All those teachers will HAVE to have education degrees. Probably already in place. My state had to meet this standard last year.

[wtmusic]

68. Bullshit yourself.

It took me all of ten seconds on Google to discover you're either lying or ignorant:

Highly Qualified Teachers: To be deemed highly qualified, teachers must have: 1) a bachelor's degree, 2) full state certification or licensure, and 3) prove that they know each subject they teach.

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/methods/teachers/hqtflexibility.html

Cheezus. It is truly scary that petulance like yours is guiding our next generation. :scared:

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. Read the fine print next time

Full state certification means a degree in education and a major field of study in the area they teach.

I am not the ignorant one here. I am also not the one with an agenda.

Oh I take back what I said about you needing to look into a teaching career. Obviously, your critical thinking skills are just not up to par.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. On second thought.

LWolf is a teacher from California. Let's see what she knows about teacher certification standards there. I will PM her.

[LWolf]

74. Teacher certification in CA changes all the time, lol.

When I was finishing my CA credential, you started with a BA in ANY subject. Then you added 33 post-grad units in education to that; just shy of a masters, usually in Curriculum and Instruction. Everything but the thesis or project.

If you wanted a multiple-subject credential, you did the liberal arts BA or you tested out in all the subjects your BA didn't cover. My BA is in Social Sciences, so I had to test out with the Praxis. The first year it was given to replace the old NTE. A few years later, all liberal arts BAs had to test out, as well, so that no one could bypass the test.

If you wanted a single-subject credential, your BA was in that subject, and then you did the 33 units for certification, with or without the Masters. So I could have gotten a single-subject credential in social science as well; I was a California History class shy. I took that class later, but by then the requirements had changed again so I was no longer eligible.

My BA +33+Praxis (and CBEST, of course) got me a Clear Multiple Subject Credential.

Later on, other requirements were added. I completed the CLAD: Crosscultural Language and Academic Development certificate with a couple of classes and more tests.

Other teachers coming in also had the RICA, Reading Instruction Competence Assessment. All of that was required BEFORE NCLB and the "highly qualified" teacher. I don't know what they've added since. I was "highly qualified" in CA, and am "highly qualified in Oregon, as well.

In my current state, teachers get their BA in education, as well as their masters. They were taking the praxis; now they are taking the ORELA. There are more levels of certification in this state than in CA; anything beyond the "initial license" requires a masters degree.

It really differs from state to state what the exact requirements will be.

All of them are meticulous about both content knowledge, philosophy, and pedagogy.

The number of costly tests, plus the constant work, time, and expense to keep a credential current is significant. I need to take a few more classes, but haven't because of the pay cut I took moving to a new state. Meanwhile, I've spent 3-4 weeks every summer doing "staff development," and the rest of the time scrambling to keep the bills paid. That pay cut was painful.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. There are some states, like Alaska, that will never meet the highly qualified mandate

Same here in Kansas. The reason is all the one room schoolhouses serving rural communities. Under NCLB, those teachers need to be highly qualified in every subject they teach. So a one room school house teacher has to go to school for literally a decade to be certified in every subject. And who in their right mind would want to do that for $30K a year - or less. And of course, there is no money in NCLB for tuition reimbursement.

[LWolf]

98. We have a problem in middle and high school in my state.

We have "humanities" classes. Ingegrated language arts and social studies. At this time, "Humanities" teachers are supposed to have endorsements in both language arts and social studies. Not many do.

I teach both of those, but in a small K-8 school. I'm certified to teach them self-contained, but not in a departmentalized structure. We are departmentalized, but I have my homeroom for more than one section a day, thus squeaking by the current state definition of "self-contained."

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. The sped teacher shortage in my district is due to this highly qualified requirement

Now we have substitutes in sped rooms all over the district. The sped teachers who were in those positions were at least certified teachers, they merely lacked full certification in sped. Most of the subs are not certified.

I know, it's nuts. :crazy:

[ThePowerofWill]

108. Irreplaceable?

Pretty damn close. I know here where i live they have huge shortages of qualified teachers every year. People are opting not too put up with all the bullshit of being a teacher these days.

And if you think teachers get a good salary you're off your rocker. I'm a dock worker and make more than the teachers in my area do per yr.

[babylonsister]

25. My 2 cents, but you sure don't sound like you enjoy

being a teacher. Is there anything you find rewarding? What grade do you teach? Do you have a bunch of naughty kids who require policing? or troubled kids who require your psychiatric skills?

[LWolf]

26. A few points from this teacher:

I don't get paid during the summer. Many of us take on summer jobs to make ends meet. It's not that we are not working, it's that we are not working for pay at school.

Many of us ARE working at school for free, at least part of that time. Taking down the classroom, reorganizing, evaluating the year to see what worked, what didn't, and what direction we should go to improve for the next year? That happens during the summer. Much of the classes and paperwork required to keep our license also happens then.

It's also a much-needed down time. During the school year, the daily pace is more than demanding. Teachers who don't get down time burn out quickly.

Kids get days off for conferences because there is just no way to meet with every family after school. That's to guarantee face-to-face time with the teacher within teachers' contractual day.

Holidays? Think $$$$$. First of all, districts and schools are funded through ADA: "average daily attendance." While the formulas differ from state to state, the bottom line is this: excessive absences cost $$$$. The way schools are budgeted, it costs too much money to keep school open when the students don't show up. That's why so many districts give a whole week this week; too many people take off the whole week for Thanksgiving, anyway. The more holidays, the more people plan their family trips, etc., around days that their kids wouldn't be in school anyway, the better our attendance rates, the more money to run school. Of course, the attendance requirements for AYP affect that, too.

How about changing the way schools are funded? Fully fund them regardless of attendance. Encourage good attendance, yes. Don't punish school budgets because kids get sick or because parents let them stay home too often. Most states will not allow a school calendar that achieves "positive" attendance. Meaning 100%; states don't budget for every child showing up every day, even though you are still paying to keep that room open and staffed. Let "positive attendance" become the norm.

Summers? Think $$$$$$.

My school district has, literally, the shortest instructional year I have EVER heard of, well below the average "180 instructional days," which is, imo, too short, too.

Why? Because the district can't afford to pay staff enough days to keep it open any longer. It's a cost-saving measure. The only thing that has to do with teachers is the lack of funds to pay them.

My district cheats; it calls those parent conference days, etc., "instructional days." Which of course they are not, since no students are on campus. If we are meeting with parents, though, or doing "staff development," then we are TALKING about instruction, so they can be "instructional days." :eyes: In reality, our calendar has 168 STUDENT days.

I would love to extend the school year, and even the school day. I wouldn't mind working more days, if I got paid for them. I don't want to work LONGER days, since it generally takes me 9 - 10 hours a day to keep up with what I've already got to do, not counting weekends.

I spent 2 weeks working for pay for my district this summer. Sort of. I got paid, but for any days added to my contract, I got paid, not "overtime," not even my daily rate.

I got paid $15 an hour to work extra days.

Here's what I would suggest: Increase the student days on the calendar to 200, and the teacher days to 225. Make sure that teachers get days throughout the year to prepare report cards, meet with parents, etc.. Make sure that they get a full week IN THEIR CLASSROOMS, not in district or site meetings, to set up and prepare for the opening of school. Make sure that ALL work done for a district is paid at the regular contractual daily rate.

Then adjust the school calendar to a single-track year-round calendar with shorter, more frequent breaks. They keep everyone fresh, prevent burnout, and also cut down on re-teaching needed after extended summers.

That would address your concerns. Now convince states to fund it.

[wtmusic]

37. Thank you.

That is exactly what is needed (although I might add smaller class size, which I think is still underemphasized). It really does come down to more money, which I am all for. Truly, the root of the problem.

But not the whole problem. I attended back-to-school night at my kids' middle school in October and ten minutes were alotted to visit each classroom, meet the teacher, and hear him/her give a little spiel. It wasn't enough -- parents were left running off to the next class without getting all the handouts the teacher had prepared, with questions left over, with items still on the teachers' agenda. At the next school board meeting I proposed extending the meetings to 15 minutes, which would have been adequate, but the superintendent nearly had a coronary. He didn't want to ask the teachers to stay an extra half hour -- one freaking night a year. Every teacher I spoke to had no problem with it and would have stayed the extra time, and I can't count the number of times in the last MONTH I've stayed a half hour over my "quitting" time to finish a project.

Now, this is an event that happens once a year, in a school district that just spent $50M on building improvements. What is the problem here? Is it a union thing? The school board? Help me, I am at a loss. :shrug:

[LWolf]

59. It's a contract thing.

Back-to-school night is written into the contract with set "after hours" times. Unions are watchful, and admins careful to make sure we don't go over hours.

In my previous district, BTS was always a minimum day, so that the extra time was under contract. We taught half the day, then we could go home and come back in the evening. Of course, most of us didn't go home. We had enough to do, so we stayed and worked the whole day anyway, then stayed for the evening.

In my current district, we work the whole day, and bts starts 90 minutes after school lets out. We're free to go home during those 90 minutes. Nobody does.

Either way, it's a really long day. I get to school at 7am every morning. If bts ends at 8:00, I've been there for 14 hours. That means I'm not exactly at my freshest, and best, when the parents walk through the door.

The bottom line is that it costs money to provide extra time. Districts can't, or don't, pay for any additional time outside the contractual day. They write that time in, and leave the time minimal to get the contract passed. Parents need time in the evenings, so that they have time to get there after work. Admins don't like staying late to make sure everyone is gone for the night before they leave, either, lol.

Here's a question to ponder: What do parents want from Back to School Night? What should we be focusing on, to make sure they get the most out of their time?

We plan a presentation that discusses schedules, procedures, curriculum, planned events, supplies, etc.; some parents don't come at all, some drift in, sit for 5 minutes and drift out, and some show up late from the siblings' rooms, even when we schedule "shifts" to accommodate them. Very few parents are there long enough to get all the information we offer.

Years back, I worked at a school that did away with "back to school night." We had an open campus, where any parent could drop into any classroom at any time after signing in at the office. They could drop in to help or to observe. We scheduled a minimum of (5) 30 minute conferences a year with every family, and we encouraged parents to drop by, call, email (especially email!), or write notes any time. In other words, we made ourselves as accessible as possible. We also provided letters, syllabi, lists, schedules, etc. on a regular basis. At one point I had a blackboard classroom online where parents could talk to each other, check up on homework, etc..

When it came time for bts, we had a family picnic instead. Families would show up with blankets and a picnic dinner, and we'd have basic games (3 legged race, etc.) going. Teachers would make a point to stop, eat with, and talk to each family, using the time to get acquainted and to build the home-school partnership that is so important to success, and answering questions one-on-one.

We also had regular "student-led conferences," where the room would be set up and the kids would bring parents in and take them through various activities that were currently going on in the room so that they could see first-hand what learning was going on, and how it was happening.

All of those things went away when the district cracked down on doing things "differently" than the rest of the schools. They standardized us.

While we were doing those things, though, I have to say that we had the most active, involved, positive parents I've ever had the pleasure to work with.

[wtmusic]

71. IMO the point of BTS should be more one of parent involvement

and if that isn't happening under the standard nightly program, then why not a picnic?

The thing I fear about the District vs. Union matchup is every year the schools become less flexible and less "local" -- they're taking orders from state orgs and now NCLB. So one district that wanted to extend time for BTS would find it nearly impossible, as would another which had a (mandatory) picnic.

Thanks (again) for your reasoned response. CA education is so messed up--the more I learn about it, the more depressing it is. But New Jersey, which spends a full HALF of their state revenue on education, has one of the best programs in the country, so I am led to believe it's a commitment (read $) issue.

[LWolf]

77. The school I mentioned,

btw, was in CA. We were a district "school of choice." Not a charter school per se, but a school piloting a particular vision on a grant, with permission from the district. We had unheard of freedom to customize. We ran a different calendar and daily schedule than the rest of the district, and a different curriculum focus, as well. And, for the time we were allowed to do so, we consistently had the highest test scores in the district, if that means anything.

Five years into it, the district had had enough. They replaced our principal with someone who came in to "get us in line" with the rest of the district. The first year, half the staff left. The second year, half of the remaining staff left. The 3rd year, families started leaving. While we weren't allowed to go back to our custom day, custom calendar, custom conferences bts, open house, etc., the district introduced a new "program" to keep the school viable, and the principle began to ASK us how we wanted to implement things. By the time I left a few years ago, we'd thoroughly corrupted him. He was battling the district on our, and our families' behalves.

It all comes down to two things: money and permission. We really do take pride in our work, and want to give our students the best that we can. We need the resources to do so, and we need permission. When a district, complying with NCLB sanctions, adopts a scripted curriculum and teachers are warned that they will be "written up" for any detours from the pacing schedule or the script, it doesn't matter how much money you spend. Unmotivated teachers and students will abound. And yes, that exact warning was given out in my previous district, to ALL schools, even those who made API and AYP every year. That's one reason I moved out of state, taking a massive pay cut to do so.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. If you really believe teachers are on vacation all summer,

please allow me to tell you how it really is.

I have taught 28 years. I either teach summer school or go to school every summer. The only way to make decent money teaching is to get a masters degree and keep on taking classes so you can move over on the salary scale. We also need to take classes to keep our certification current. And since school districts rarely help with tuition, we need to work as much extra time as possible to pay for all those classes.

I also work after school, holiday school and Saturday school.

It's called survival. My dad was a teacher and he painted houses all summer - after teaching summer school. He also worked at least two other part time jobs.

When my kids were younger, the only way I could afford camp and sports and music lessons for them was by working summer school and after school. Of course, I missed most games and couldn't go to parent day at camp since I was working.

Also remember that most teachers take home a couple hours of homework every night. How much work do you bring home every night?

So no, it's a huge myth. We do NOT get summers off. LOL I wish.

[wtmusic]

40. I keep in touch with a bunch of friends from college

who are now teachers and they do take summers off. A lot of them travel. So it may be different in your state, but they seem to do just fine.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. And I am sure I know a whole lot more teachers than you do

and VERY FEW who can afford to take summers off. Your teacher friends must be wealthy. Or maybe they married money. They all must also have advanced degrees and lifetime certification.

[mzmolly]

31. As a parent, I am not in favor either. Children need time to be "children."

But, this would not impact my support for Barack in an election. Isn't six hours a long enough "work" day for a six year old?

Ugh.

[rucky]

45. I taught in an elementary school where the kids were there from...

7:30 am to 4:30 pm. Urban charter school that I guess you could say doubled as a daycare center. The parents loved it, but after 2pm, there was no education happening. It's just too long of a day for a kid.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. We have a couple charter schools here doing that

and they go year round too.

Their test scores suck and the teacher turnover is terrible. I doubt any of these charters will still be around in 5 years.

[rucky]

54. One can hope.

For profit corps doing public service does not work. Period.

[elizm]

61. I'm a teacher...and I DO need more time to teach...

..But I would also expect more pay..which Obama proposes.

[hedgehog]

14. I don't know if the school day needs to be lengthened, but it does need to be restructured.

School authorities seem terrified of allowing for any free time lest they lose control. Freshman at our high school get 20 minutes for lunch. That includes getting to the cafeteria and standing in line.

Addin two more hours of what we are doing now won't help. Adding two hours for active sports, guided art or music, one on one tutoring, homework etc; maybe.

[LWolf]

62. The answer to that dilemma:

$$$$$

Hire enough adults to adequately supervise breaks, and keep schools small.

Overcrowding and under-staffing leads to loss of control.

Small schools, plenty of adults supervising all accessible areas, breaks in multiple shifts so that there aren't large crowds out all at once.

[babylonsister]

15. Obama unveils $18 billion education plan, fix NCLB

Obama unveils $18 billion education plan

By PHILIP ELLIOTT
Associated Press Writer


MANCHESTER, N.H. (AP) -- Presidential contender Barack Obama on Tuesday called for a $18 billion education plan that he said would fix mistakes his chief Democratic rivals made when they approved President Bush's "No Child Left Behind" effort.

The Illinois Democrat criticized Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton and former Sen. John Edwards for not fully funding No Child Left Behind. While outlining his own education proposal to prepare students for college and to train teachers to lead in classrooms, Obama said the two rivals haven't done enough to protect students.

"It's pretty popular to bash No Child Left Behind out on the campaign trail, but when it was being debated in Congress four years ago, my colleague Dick Durbin offered a chance to vote so that the law couldn't be enforced unless it was fully funded," Obama said. "A lot of senators, including Senator Edwards and Senator Clinton, passed on that chance. And I believe that was a serious mistake."

Obama's plan would encourage universal pre-kindergarten programs - but not require them - expand teacher mentoring programs and reward teachers with increased pay not tied to standardized test scores. Failing teachers would be moved from classrooms and replaced with ones who are competent, Obama said.

"In this election, at this defining moment, we can decide that this century will be another American century by making a historic commitment to education. We can make a commitment that's more than just the rhetoric of a campaign, one that's more than another empty promise made by a politician looking for your vote," the Illinois senator said.

Obama's plan would cost $18 billion. His campaign said he would pay for it by delaying NASA's Constellation Program, which is developing the vehicle and rockets to go to the moon and later to Mars, by reducing costs by buying in bulk, by auctioning surplus federal property and by cutting down erroneous payments identified by the Government Accountability Office.

Obama said families also have to be part of the solution.

more...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBAMA_EDUCATION?SITE=CONGRA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[JCMach1]

16. Lengthening the school day is just as bogus idea as constant testing (the Bush approach)

It's a solution made for politicians, not teachers or students.

[LWolf]

21. "Reward pay" is not "Merit pay."

Of course not.

:sarcasm:



No, thanks. Here are some of the rewards I would like:

Give me a room large enough to fit all students comfortably, with plenty of personal space and flexible space for small group instruction.

Give me enough bookshelves and cupboards to fit all the books and supplies in.

Hire enough people to supervise grounds, halls, bathrooms, etc., so that I don't have to worry about what is happening when I'm not in those places, and I don't have to stand out and supervise recesses when I should be in my room planning and correcting; keeping up with the non-instructional duties.

Increase the non-instructional time during my paid work day so that I don't have to work through the dinner hour and take work home at night and on weekends to keep up.

Guarantee that I won't have to attend more than one meeting a week during the time I spend planning instruction and dealing with paperwork, or provide one half-day each week for all necessary meetings, or give me fewer classes and/or students to teach, freeing up some of that time. even better: all of the above.

Pay for all the supplies that keep the room going, so I don't spend my own money making sure we have what we need.

Pay me a salary that will make sure I can get a mortgage in the median local price range with no more than 25% of my net pay.

That's how you can "reward" me for my hard work. Of course, much of the above would also make all teachers more "effective," too.

Just how would Obama measure my "effectiveness?"

[harun]

28. Rewards should go to teachers who effectively help

poor performing students improve. So if a student gets lowest 25 percentile in a standard math test one year and goes up to lowest 50 percentile the next, give the teacher a 5k bonus (per student).

[LWolf]

29. That's basing "rewards" on test scores,

which I believe that the OP says is NOT what Obama is suggesting.

It also doesn't take into account ANY of the many factors that affect student performance that are outside of teachers' control.

Merit pay for test scores is indefensible.

[harun]

79. It is no different than bonus's at a company that are tied to many

things people do not have control over. Many times management will need to increase in certain areas year over year and if they do they get bonus's. If there is an economic slow down it isn't like they have any control over that, and they don't get as much of a bonus. The point is to get teachers to work harder on the helping the lower performing students get better. Instead of spending all their time worshiping the few who do great, ignoring the rest. Which is what I saw growing up.

[LWolf]

83. In is NOTHING like sales bonuses.

Your post includes a right-wing: suggesting that teachers don't work hard enough, and don't work hard enough on helping lower performing students. That smear reeks of arrogance and ignorance.

Of course, that IS what the whole high-stakes test score debacle is based on: convincing people that teachers don't "work hard enough," in the long-term goal of privatizing public education.

I suggest that you get out and see more, if that's what you think you've seen. Visit schools in various communities, get to know many teachers and what they are doing with their time before, during, and after school.

Educate yourself about what teachers spend their time working on, before you hand out any more broad-brush statements. Try to find something more substantive than rw talking points to support your positions.

[harun]

85. I am not suggesting they don't work hard enough

just that they aren't good enough at their jobs and have the wrong priorities.

I have had A LOT of teachers and most of them were doing it for the summers off. Some were outstanding though. I still think back to all the help they gave me and advice, because I still use it today. I want those teachers to be rewarded.

If you think that every teacher is equal in their success with students you live in a fantasy world.

Most of my friends while I was going to college were in education and many of them are teachers now. Some of them do it as a job, which is fine, it is a job. But some of them do it and look to really work on getting some kid's who need to be taught from different angles caught up with the rest and they should be rewarded.

Just my 2 cents, I am under no allusion that anything will change or improve. Relaying my personal experiences is hardly RW talking points.

[LWolf]

95. One person's "a lot" of teachers is not a significant sample.

Having worked in public education since 1983, in many capacities, I know quite well that all teachers, like all people, aren't equal.

The point, though, is to improve everyone, since all students can't have the same teacher. The rw approach to this is through market competition. Anyone who has worked in the profession knows that competition between teachers decreases the quality of education, not increases it. Collaboration, partnership, mentoring, and other team building strategies raise the performance of all, and therefore the experience for all students.

There are too many factors, and too many ways to manipulate those factors, to make pay for test scores a valid tool for improvement. Shall I list them all for you? Let's start with just a few:

1. We all know who will score well on standardized tests, and who won't, before they ever get to the schoolhouse door in kindergarten. Long before the "standards and accountability" movement, there was ample evidence to show that socio-economic levels are the most accurate predictor of success in school. Testing them more, and rewarding those whose students come from higher socio-economic levels, while punishing those whose students come from lower levels, doesn't improve the learning of struggling students. It simply creates a political competition within districts for which teachers are assigned which students.

2. If everybody reaches the 50th percentile, either you are in Lake Woebegone, or the math is corrupt. Percentiles are rankings; a bell curve, if you like. There will ALWAYS be students below average. That's the math.

3. Educators know that the best way to improve student learning is not to threaten them, intimidate them, or punish them. It's to motivate them. Not with bribes: not by paying them for grades, etc., but by making their education meaningful. Extrinsics get short-term results that don't hold over the long-term. Intrinsics create life-long learners. Guess what? The same holds true for improving teacher performance.

4. Public education, by it's very nature, cannot be run successfully on a business model. I'll leave you with this well-known analogy- "The Blueberry Story:"

http://www.jamievollmer.com/blue_story.html

[harun]

106. How much do you think the problem is with the culture in the

United States?

Do you think an improvement in the culture (mostly in terms of what things in society are deemed "important", like less materialistic things) would yield more success in school than any education reform?

How much do you think could be gained with using more technological tools for teaching? Recorded lessons kids can go over (even at home with their parents), multiple teaching styles used (audible, visual, hybrid), more intimate teaching (apprenticeship type teaching, one on one, style), etc.?

[LWolf]

107. U.S. culture is a big factor,

but not the only factor.

A culture that valued education would go along way to improving ANYTHING that schools do.

A massive flood of resources to the underclasses, and to all of us, in the form of health care, affordable housing, free public education from pre-school through college, a living wage, jobs, child care, and safe communities would help address the critical birth - kindergarten period. That's when so many children fall behind.

Much can also be gained with different structure and format. To infuse the early years with rich language and rich literature, with thinking and social skills, would help prepare students for academic success later. Research tells us that for optimum results, class sizes should be kept to no more than 15 students. My first class had 37 students, and the biggest class I ever taught had 43.

Structuring the school day to fit the way children grow, thrive, and learn naturally would help, as well. Keeping them crowded into little rooms at little desks, sitting and listening or sitting and writing all day works against nature. Rooms large enough to spread out, learning that requires talking, conversation, moving around, and doing, with plenty of breaks, would increase learning.

I certainly have particular models for instruction that I prefer over others. Given a choice, I prefer inquiry-based instruction and a lot of time spent working together. Providing the resources and structures mentioned above, though, would improve results regardless of the instructional model used.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. There's a good reason you saw that

Teachers don't get to decide who gets the help they need. Administrators make those choices. Kids with average abilities and above WILL make progress. They CAN shine. The low kids are harder to help. They also cost more money. So we are given kids to teach and the materials to use to teach them. Administrators decide who gets what. We, like any worker bees, just follow the instructions we are given. The latest fad is scripted instruction. That means we teachers don't even get to decide what to say; it's already written down in a script for us.

At my school, I am the only special ed teacher yet I don't even get to teach my special ed students in Reading. I am the only one in the building with the training and the education to meet the needs of the kids with disabilities, but I am not allowed to teach them to read. Obviously, not my choice. Administration in my district decided that we special ed teachers weren't moving our kids along quickly enough in our scripted reading program. We also tended to go off the script (which of course, we have been trained to do as specialists). So our administration decided that other teachers in the building should teach the disabled kids to read. The teachers who read the scripts are deemed better teachers than those of us who strive to meet individual needs.

So you can see it's a lot more complicated than you realize. Your complaint lies not with teachers but with the management that makes the decisions.

[harun]

87. Why would the administrators get that much power?

Or I guess the better question would be what happened to give them that much power?

[ulysses]

92. the "business model".

It's been going that way for a long time. Teacher autonomy in many schools is very low or even non-existant. But that's the business model...of which merit pay is a part, by the way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. Education is like any other business in that respect

The people in charge make the decisions. It didn't used to be that way. But it sure is now. And it sucks.

Any wonder young people are not choosing teaching as a career? This thread explains why in many different ways.

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. America has been convinced our public schools are failures

As a rule, teachers have pretty decent contracts. Administrators don't.

And in reality, administrators are more responsible for student achievement than teachers are. So it's only fair to put the pressure on them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. My kids are disabled; they are in the first percentile

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x8268

If I pull them up to the second percentile, should I get a raise? I really can't promise they can score any higher than that. They are mentally retarded. They are 5th graders and they can't read at 5th grade level. Since the tests are written at grade level, there isn't much hope they will score anywhere close to the 50th percentile.

We did a 'predictor' test this week. It is designed to predict how well they will score on state tests in March. One of these kids tried really hard to read one story on the test and then finally just put his head down. It was one of the saddest things I have ever seen. Forcing kids to take a test they can't read is cruel.

So if we get merit pay, no way will my kids' test scores ever earn me a raise.

The other problem I have with merit pay is how does the counselor earn her raise? The art teacher? The nurse? They all have very important jobs too.

[harun]

81. In my opinion the most important job is the teacher who helps

the lower performing children get better, and should be rewarded as such.

Everyone in the company I work for has important jobs too, but only a few get bonus's.

I don't think nurse's and counselor's shouldn't get paid a good wage, I think they should get great wages. However, I think a teacher who can help lower performing kids get better is someone extraordinary. Only a few teachers in my life have exhibited the skill, talent, caring and hard work necessary to achieve that. To attract these individuals to the field of education and to keep them there I think they should get BIG bonus's. I don't mind paying extra taxes to fund that.

[ulysses]

89. I'm not seeing the incentive.

I'm a special ed teacher like proud, and basing any part of my pay on test scores (I don't see what else you *could* base it on for merit/incentive pay) is not an incentive for me to keep working with the kids who need the most help. Someone is always going to be in the first percentile - that's just the way statistics work. Should I just be happy with following my calling while I watch colleagues who teach children without disabilities rack up their bonuses?

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. And don't forget the same administrators making these decisions

are the ones who will get to decide who gets a raise and how much it should be.

As I have said many times here, these are the idiots who can't even follow the rules and fire incompetent teachers. Yet they are somehow deemed capable of deciding how much money I am going to earn? Yeah, sure.

There are many good reasons the current pay structure needs to remain in place.

[ulysses]

96. but they're paragons of objectivity, those admins!

:rofl:

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. I have one of the few good ones and she is losing her mind

I can barely speak to her these days. She is just over the top with test score mania.

[LWolf]

105. You and Proud make a really important point:

Why would ANYONE want to teach those who need us most, if taking them on would lose us a bonus?

It's not just a matter of moving them forward. Others who aren't struggling, who are not disabled, who didn't start "behind the starting line" in kindergarten, are going to move faster and farther, so teachers of the neediest kids would NEVER see a bonus.

I had some kids on IEPs last year who moved from a single-digit percentile to the low 20th. I was thrilled. I thought those were great gains. They were thrilled, their parents were thrilled, my sped colleague who works with them was thrilled. I don't need a bonus to work for my kids (although I'd like to be paid a decent salary, lol), and that gain wouldn't have qualified for a bonus anyway, since they still don't meet the benchmark.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. I'd be happy with air conditioning

:)

[LWolf]

64. That, too.

I'd wilt in the humid (relative to me anyway, lol) midwest without it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. Check your PMs

and remember I love you. :hug:

[ulysses]

24. in what way are "incentives" not "merit pay"?

?

[ellisonz]

27. I think he's actually talking about pre-school.

[hellbound-liberal]

30. As a teacher, I have to say that I am getting really tired

of people who have no idea what goes on in classrooms shooting off their mouths about how to “fix” them. You can cite whatever studies that you want that support whatever claims that you want to make and I can find just as many studies to refute them. The problem, as I see it, isn’t the length of time that students spend in the classroom, it’s the attitude that the students bring to the classroom. If a student comes in wanting to learn and they hold up their end of the bargain by paying attention in class, doing their assignments and asking questions when they don’t understand something, then they can be successful. But, when students have no personal investment in or attachment to the classes in which they are enrolled, there isn’t a whole lot teachers or administrators can do to make them learn ,including making them stay in school, doing things they don’t want to do, for a longer period of time. Though we don’t want to admit it, Americans, as a society, DO NOT value education. We give it plenty of lip service, but our actions belie our words. We value entertainers and athletes, not teachers and scholars. Our kids’ role models are Alex Rodriguez and Lindsey Lohan not Gerhard Ertl or Wangari Maathai. We want to be entertained and we want it NOW! Our whole society is built on that notion, our industries depend on it and the special interests that profit from this system will do whatever they can to see that it continues. Many of our kids are not brought up to see the link between education, and yes, years of hard work and diligent study, and success. Many of them can’t even see the link between paying attention and getting decent grades. They’ve got a cell phone in one pocket and an IPod in the other and both of them are plugged in and turned on within one minute of the ringing of the final school bell. Teachers aren’t benevolent adults who are there to impart knowledge and skills that will give them a better life in the future, we are merely obstacles that are keeping them from talking to their friends and making plans for after school. The next time someone tells you they know how to “fix” the broken educational system, ask them to tell you the last time they spent any time in one of its classrooms.

[LWolf]

33. I'll second your points, too,

good additions to those I made above.

:hi:

[hellbound-liberal]

48. You make some excellent points too, LWolf!

People who aren't in the classroom just don't understand everything that we do to EARN those two and a half months off. Nor do they realize how many of us use much of that time working other jobs, preparing for the new year or in "professional development" Time spent performing other duties and attending meetings has also taken up much more time in recent years. I love being a teacher and I love my school, kids and colleagues and I can't think of one thing that I would change EXCEPT the level of motivation that my kids bring to school. People, and politicians, in this country need to realize that we can't keep trying to force all of these round pegs into the square holes of NCLB. The population is becoming more diverse by the day and, while we must have standards to guide our efforts, we also have to realize that each and every child is not going to bring the same skills to the classroom. We need to heed the advice of the ancient cobbler "I am a shoemaker with much leather, but I do my cutting and stitching according to the dimensions of the foot."

[GreenArrow]

42. I think Americans do value education

They value it as a means to an end, not as a valuable end in itself. They see no intrinsic value in it.

[skipos]

43. I don't disagree but, what is the solution then?

I feel that in my lifetime (33 year) Americans have decided it is cool to be dumb and materialistic. I can't think of any Paris Hilton types that my friends idolized. Some of them idolized musicians, but at least those people actually DID something unlike Hilton.

Having an intelligent President would be a step in the right direction.

[wtmusic]

46. Any suggestions?

I'd really like to know where to start in fixing American education. Because the alternative is giving up -- not really an alternative, wouldn't you say?

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. We don't value kids in our society

So of course we don't value education. One of the best books I ever read was THE HURRIED CHILD by Elkind. If I could design a teacher education program, this book would be required reading.

I invite anyone who thinks they know how to fix education (as if it needs fixing - but that is a whole nuther thread LOL) to come do my job for one day. Then we shall see if they still think they have what it takes to educate kids.

[hellbound-liberal]

70. Whether or not, or how, American education needs to de fixed IS debatable

Here is a link to a DATA-BASED assessment of our educational progress compared to other countries. No, we are not at the top and it is an older survey but I trust these results much more than I trust the ones from NAEP which, I believe has been politicized.
It also includes information on what other countries do better. It is a good idea for us all to be better informed before we have any in-depth discussions on improving our educational system.

http://timss.bc.edu/timss2003i/mcgdm.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. It is not valid to compare our kids test scores to other countries

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3741530&mesg_id=3743233

[hellbound-liberal]

75. Right, but if you look at the stats, you will see that our 4th graders fare much better than average

and TIMMS also includes information on what educational practices are used in other countries which can be useful. I agree that our educational system holds unreasonable expectations for many of the students who are forced to attend but I think it is worthwhile to observe other countries who seem to do better.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. Yes we do need to borrow ideas and share with other countries

to an extent. Japanese schools are very successful but they also have a higher suicide rate and more kids with serious psychiatric issues. Many European countries have good schools too but they decide when kids are 5 if they can attend an academic program in high school.

So let's be careful what we borrow.

[harun]

88. Kids raise their hand to show they know something

They don't raise their hand to say they don't and need help because that makes them feel like they are stupid.

The teachers on this board are making every one of my points for me simply by trying to refute them. If you think the only students "worth it" are the show-off's raising their hands you are helping only the top of the class and not helping the ones struggling to get better.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. Wow where did you ever get that idea?

As many of us have repeatedly said, we don't get to decide who is worth it and who isn't.

[Karmadillo]

69. For conscientious teachers, the day is already kind of long. Extra time would most likely

cause administrators' eyes to light up at the prospect of even more time for drilling for standardized tests. Not so good for teachers, not so good for kids.

[smalll]

80. As a teacher, I have to say, this is so wrong.

Sure, these days are not a Renaissance of learning, for many reasons. But look, even back then in the great eras and places of education: back then (Periclean Athens? 19th-century-Eton? Your local high school back in the 20s?) when students were required to learn so much more, curricula were that much more in-depth and rigorous, tests were more imposing, grading policies were less inflated, and people studied on their own for hours by candlelight - even in those pre-ipod, pre-cable, pre-video games eras (when people, like you know, acutally read?) -- the actual TIME SPENT IN CLASS was relatively short. Education has its rythmns. And a student is NOT a worker on an assembly-line. More hours does not directly translate into increased production. Honestly, kids don't like to read these days because they have so many other options to occupy their minds, so they do learn less. We are not in a Golden Age of Learning. So people think we can make up for this by trying to force our kids into becoming some kind of educational Stakhanovite shock-workers? How wrong-headed!

To be blunt, a lot of support for this "corporate hours for kids" groundswell is from all those parents who won't say no to free babysitting hours. Sorry, but I'm a teacher, not a baby-sitter. And a lot of it is from parents who don't remember what it's like to be a kid: remember free-time? Remember play? Remember the outdoors? Just because you're stuck in a cubicle for umpteen hours (there were unions for a reason, you know?) doesn't mean your kids have to live that way as well. At least not when they're still kids.

[noamnety]

99. Problems with teacher burnout

When teachers spend longer hours in the classroom teaching, they have less time outside of the classroom for classroom prep, for outside activities like running clubs, for time to meet with parents, and all those other invisible things that also benefit the students.

I have had to let some things I used to do go by the wayside because they have me teaching more than full time this year. Our school has lost after school clubs because a lot of the teachers are teaching more than a full time load. Some teachers have talked about using more multiple choice tests rather than substantive tests because they physically do not have enough time to grade them.

A number of us work with our students outside of school hours on after school service projects, some of us have professional and personal lives outside the classroom that benefit the classroom indirectly. The time I spent with VFP and IVAW led to me taking trips of kids to New Orleans. The time I spend on some outside freelance projects improves and updates my own professional skills, and that carries into the classroom as demos to the kids.

If you suck away all our outside time so that our entire life is spent in the school building, what happens is that our own perspective becomes so narrow that we are living inside that bubble. We need outside life to nourish our own selves so that we can inspire the kids better, bring a broader range of skills to them, and be role models to them of people who are active in their community. I'm not interested in doing rote lessons from 8-5 in the classroom, meeting with parents til 6, getting home just in time to make dinner, grade school work, and go to bed every night. A few years of that, and I can guarantee I will suck as a teacher.

Anyone who thinks that sort of life makes for a more effective teacher ... not only are they mistaken, but I can't help wondering what sort of life they are hoping to inspire the students to have.