Here is a simple summary of what I'm getting at.

[LoZoccolo]

The thing that bothers me is that a lot of people will complain about how there's no one to vote for, or that anyone who's available to vote for that can win has this or that wrong with them, or there's no way to instantly get what they want so they'll go and do something token and futile for whatever reason, or the people who everyone voted for don't do what they want, or whatever.

This is a sorry excuse for activism. Complaining is seriously the lowest thing you could do. And the Internet has made it too easy for it to be a full-time job.

Democracy is something you participate in. That's not something I made up, or a DLC centrist talking point; I think Abbie Hoffman said it or something so it should have some kind of radical credibility to it.

I've said it cryptically. I've said it politely. I've said it satirically. Most often, I've said it tactlessly. But to be enamored with your rights (free speech, voting, everything else) while not taking the responsibility to use them to get more of what you want and less of what you don't and to take care of your fellow citizens as well as you, will only land you in the same position day after day, year after year. What I am about to say is so simple that I am almost certain to get excoriated for being condescending: if you don't get what you want, you won't have what you want. If you want a more progressive government, you will have to create a more progressive society willing to install it, which means you will have to create more progressives. If there is one issue which is so important to you that you want to treat it as a litmus test, then why aren't you working with an organization to promote that issue? There is simply no substitute for putting yourself out there and truly being compelling. And there is no substitute for being honest about what it will take to make things such that it can happen. It could take years, but years are made out of days, and what did you do today besides get crabby and maybe think of how to deliver one next slap to whomever is immediately angering you?

I may have a reputation for bashing progressives and netroots and all that, and yeah I'm pretty moderate, but a lot of what I'm really making fun of is people doing a lot of demanding of things and not knowing how it will be had. We seem to have a romanticized notion that exercising our free speech will get us everything we want, and the Internet fosters our exercise of that, but it will take more than that. Before I get accused of trying to discourage people from using the Internet, I'm not. But you would probably even feel less frustrated if you were doing something regularly to get what you want, and I've put a couple places to go in my signature if you are interested.

[oasis]

1. Kick for those who are flexible enough to embrace the "Big Picture".

:kick:

[Algorem]

2. thash a shumple shimmery allright

[inthebrain]

3. Although I agree with the lameness of internet campaigning

I really do.

I think you need to take your own medicine here. You, by far, are the whiniest poster to this board. At least that's how your posts come across to me.

[LoZoccolo]

4. You may be correct about the quantity of whining, but I think you are wrong about the quality.

My whining is more than whining: it is meta-whining. Indeed, it is whining about whining.

[inthebrain]

5. So you're an artist?

The michaelangelo or shall we say the Mark Twain of whiners.

[LoZoccolo]

6. lol, thanks. n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

7. Thanks for your concern.

[LoZoccolo]

12. Just out of curiosity...

...what is encouraging people to be more politically active supposed to discourage them from doing, as is the intent of concern trolling? Would you care to substantiate your knee-jerk accusation?

[Lilith Velkor]

46. Venting

A lot of DUers are in situations where they are surrounded by rightwing dipshits, and/or unable to do much more than vote or donate. And when they do get involved, they have to deal with arrogant, smarmy gits taking the piss at them for not doing enough to suit them. So they need to vent, or just get reassurance that the whole country has not gone barking mad, not sly insinuations that they are so fucking stupid that they think posting on a messageboard is the same thing as activism.

To put it bluntly, your whining condescension schtick is beyond old. Your snark can be pretty funny, like the "porno candidate" thread. I like Dennis, and I laughed.

Kudos for trying something a little different with this thread.

[calteacherguy]

8. I will be canvassing for Obama in California and Nevada soon.

I'm pumped up enough about Obama now I'm ready to get off my ass and really do something.

What are you doing?

[asdjrocky]

26. Can't speak for him....

I spent last weekend phone banking, canvasing, taking out the garbage, setting up chairs, tables and risers, and talking to anyone that would listen. All of this for my candidate and for a better America.

Have fun Teacherguy, it's is a rush.

And oh yeah, good luck to your candidate!

[MADem]

9. Here's vote number five for your effort.... nt

[JeffR]

10. Fly, LZ, fly

You just might become a leftist after all. I know ya got it in ya. C'mon.

[crispini]

11. Howard Dean said it too.

" If the only thing you're doing is voting, you get a D."

[riqster]

13. There's a problem with the basic assumption

...that those who post here do nothing or very lttle else. Nobody here has a clue as to what goes on when other DUers are AFK, and I further doubt that there's a correlation between their position on the political spectrum and their degree of their participatation in the democratic process. (I can say that none of the DUers with whom I am acquainted confine their activities to posting here, but then like attracts like, so my 'sample' may very well be skewed.)

I have no idea what anyone else here does apart from posting to DU, but I do know that I put in a lot of time on Election Integrity, and very little of that here. I am glad that you also put in your time AFK, and support you in that activity; it is how politics is supposed to work, through an active, informed and involved electorate.

[LoZoccolo]

15. It is true that I don't /know/ know that people are not involved.

But you can pretty much infer it from the way they talk about things. The level of despair, the degree to which they rely on the politicians to do things for them, the way they propose dealing with certain problems, the importance they place on the climate of opinion here, things like that seem to imply that they are not participating in real life.

[LoZoccolo]

16. Another thing I forgot to mention...

...is that around the last two elections I would start threads asking people what they were doing. Usually if someone knows about an opportunity in a certain area - for instance, people in Chicago where I live were arranging buses to help get out the vote in Wisconsin - they'd like other people involved, and by posting these, they can let others know. The threads sank pretty badly. It was interesting too that it seemed that many of the people who were doing things and posted about them, I didn't recognize.

[riqster]

18. One never knows how a thread will fare

...and I understand how you are reading the digital tea leaves.

Here's an example of such divination: one could interpret your OP, in concert with the general thrust of your Anti-Kucinich threads as meaning that Leftists are whiners and Centrists are workers.

Now, you did NOT say that in your OP. It is an inference based upon the threads of yours that I have read combined with this one. Of course, the assumption is not especially robust, because I have not read all of your threads, and my Telepathy Cap is at the cleaners just now. ;)

An awareness of our own ignorance is the most important tool any of us can have in our intellectual tool box. I know that not enough people post on ER threads, which leads me to believe that people are a bunch of goddamned lemmings who deserve to have had their government stolen from them: but again, that is an assumption with insufficient data to base itself on. My ignorance keeps me working, educating, researching and generally making a pain of myself in certain circles.

[mzmolly]

24. In the last election I was involved from my PC as well as on the ground.

I wrote letters for Dean, from home. I made calls for Moveon, from home, I regularly contact my representatives by phone/email, I contacted Kerry with campaign ideas and info ;) and I did door knocking and delivered yard signs as well. So, I think that we can get active while sitting on our ass, though I agree with your greater point, as usual.

:hi:

Recommended.

[Renew Deal]

14. Great post.

One of the best things I have ever read here. You shouldn't get slapped for anything with that post. :thumbsup:

[IndianaJones]

17. moderates drive this country....and thank goodness for that. nt.

[riqster]

21. As it chances, I am a Centrist

...who feels that the party has drifted too far to the right. So, I am working for progressive candidates in order to address that imbalance.

Also, it needs to be said: if we as a party or country are to survive, it must be through inclusion, not exclusion. Yes, the middle is the majority, but that does not mean everyone left of point x is to be marginalized.

[bvar22]

25. Here is "The Center":

Here is what the MAJORITY of Americans (Democrats AND Republicans) want from OUR government!

In recent polls by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Corporation, the Wall Street Journal, and CBS News, the American majority has made clear how it feels. Look at how the majority feels about some of the issues that you'd think would be gospel to a real Democratic Party:

1. 65 percent (of ALL Americans, Democrats AND Republicans) say the government should guarantee health insurance for everyone -- even if it means raising taxes.

2. 86 percent favor raising the minimum wage (including 79 percent of selfdescribed "social conservatives").

3. 60 percent favor repealing either all of Bush's tax cuts or at least those cuts that went to the rich.

4. 66 percent would reduce the deficit not by cutting domestic spending but by reducing Pentagon spending or raising taxes.

5. 77 percent believe the country should do "whatever it takes" to protect the environment.

6. 87 percent think big oil corporations are gouging consumers, and 80 percent (including 76 percent of Republicans) would support a windfall profits tax on the oil giants if the revenues went for more research on alternative fuels.

7. 69 percent agree that corporate offshoring of jobs is bad for the U.S. economy (78 percent of "disaffected" voters think this), and only 22% believe offshoring is good because "it keeps costs down."

http://alternet.org/story/29788/

8. Over 63% oppose the War on the Iraqi People.

9. 92% of ALL Americans support TRANSPARENT, VERIFIABLE elections!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446445

Looking at this data, Dennis Kucinich stands squarely in "The Center". ALL of the "top tier" candidates are standing on the Republican side of "The Center".



The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[riqster]

27. Thanks for putting it into numbers!

I'll add this: among those issues which have been part of the Zeitgeist over the decades, there has been a remarkable consistency about the majoritarian position, regardless of party identification. The change that has been manifested has been in the leftward direction rather than the opposite drift evidenced by our elected representatives and mass media. (It's hilarious that a stick-in-the-mud Centrist like myself is being called a 'radical leftist'.)

Or to put it in a more conventional platitude: The country is not moving in the wrong direction, but our government is.

That is why I support DK. Win or lose, he is bringing this disconnect to the surface, making it visible, and inspiring debate. We need to be truy represented in Washington, and as long as we keep rewarding the rightward shift, we'll keep getting more of it.

[ulysses]

33. what, to your mind, is the "moderate" position?

[Armstead]

19. Um, this is a discussion board

This is a place to discuss things. That's what we do here. That's what you do here.

Participating on discussions here is neither indicative or mutually exclusive to whatever participants here do or don't do with the rest of our lives. Some here may be only keyboard warriors. Some here are political activists. Some here are activists for their beliefs in non-political ways. Most are probably some combination.

Also being a participant on a discussion board is a totally seperate issue than one's own political stance. The levels of real-world involvement noted above can be applied to people of any political position.

[LoZoccolo]

20. Check out my posts #15 and #16 to find out more about why I feel this way.

There are certainly people who do a lot here, and likely many I do not know about.

[paulk]

22. I think the "netroots" is primarily

a figment of it's own imagination.

For the reasons you lay out - too many mistake the DU (or dKos) circle jerk as some method of political activism.

[bvar22]

28. First they ignore you.

"First they ignore you,
then they ridicule you,
then they fight you,
then you win."
-- Mahatma Gandhi


First they ignore you
In 2000, we were ignored by both political parties.


then they ridicule you,
In 2003, the ridiculing began. Phrases like "nut roots, left wing fringe, loony left" were unleashed by the Entrenched Authoritarian Establishment of both Parties, but primarily by elements of the DLC within the Democratic Party.


then they fight you,
We are currently being openly attacked by the Republican Party and conservative elements in the Democratic Party.
Move On was censured in the Senate. The Net Roots (Move On, Code Pink, "Bloggers") are openly attacked by the President of the United States, and conservative (Corporate) talking heads.
Most of the presidential candidates have funded and staffed Spin Teams to try and control the message on the Internets! Several campaigns are paying operatives to haunt & disrupt websites that are critical.

then you win!
I believe Ghandi.
We are winning.


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[paulk]

29. the point I'm making is that way too many netroot activists

mistake "netroom activism" as actual political activism. When the netroots actually accomplishes something politically (outside of getting Markos an MSM network job to go with his house in Berkely), then I'll take it seriously.

Puffing up the cred of the netroots, like you have just done, no doubt makes you feel good and your efforts important. But what have you really accomplished with the time you spent on it?

[bvar22]

35. Whatever.

You don't know me, what other forms of activism I practice, nor the net effect of the sum of my efforts.
You are speaking from your ass, and your comments are applicable ONLY to your own ass.

Even if I have done nothing else, participation in ONLY DU has helped educate many to the REAL problems of the corporate takeover of the Democratic Party.

There is a strong comparison between the today's Blogs, and the pamphlets of the American Revolution.
http://www.bricklin.com/pamphleteers.htm

[LoZoccolo]

37. I don't think blogs are that much like pamphlets.

Pamphlets get passed around to random people, for one. They might be more like underground newspapers (in that they are read by like-minded people) but even those are more likely to get in the hands of people who are not politically active or who might be in a position to be compelled from their current beliefs. People pass around links, sure, but I still think most of the audience is like-minded people.

[paulk]

38. I think you make a good point -

The netroots is mostly preaching to the choir - how many times have we read on DU that "I don't know anyone who supports Hillary Clinton"? *

I also have to wonder if the netroots activists ever ask themselves, when they're busy educating people and getting them to be more progressive, if their efforts aren't, in fact, having the opposite effect? Some of the folks on this website can be downright offputting, to say the least.















*(used for example only, not intended as an endorsement)

[LoZoccolo]

39. I'm thinking we'll hear some Thanksgiving stories again this year. n/t

[jgraz]

23. You're missing an important point here

Oops, I meant "Lame n/t".

Complaining isn't the "lowest" thing you could do, it's the FIRST thing you do. And it's a helluva lot better than saying nothing. Sure, many of us do a lot more than just complain but after all the protests and phone banks and letter writing, just sticking your head out the window and doing a Howard Beale is still a critical part of dissent.

My problem with many of your posts is that you (and others) often seem like you're attacking people simply for complaining. This, right here, is where the complaining SHOULD happen -- because if you do it right, you're going to get a few more people complaining, and so on, and so on, and on to the shampoo commercial. And that WILL cause people to act.

Even if it doesn't, it's valuable to have a collective yawp, a place where we all can say what things aren't right and what we need to do about them. But the first step is always going to be that complaint -- not nearly enough, but more than most are doing. String enough of them together, write them persuasively and you may actually accomplish something real.

[ulysses]

30. and here's a simple summary of what "I'm" getting at.

Take one issue. If I have to go out and recreate the wheel wholesale, make 300 million people realize that their own best self-interest is usually liberal rather than conservative, in order to convince a bunch of Democratic lawmakers that NAFTA is against the best interest of most of the people, then something is deeply fucked with those Democratic lawmakers.

[LoZoccolo]

31. And suppose they were fucked; what are you going to do about it?

And if the 300 million people didn't know why they should believe one thing or the other, what's to stop the Republicans from convincing them to support something worse?

[ulysses]

32. I tried one strategy.

Its effectiveness was limited and people are still having the vapors over it seven years later. I'm working on other options, but the going is slow here in semi-rural Georgia.

...what's to stop the Republicans from convincing them to support something worse?

They already have, and they had help. Thus the fight.

Personally, though I complain about the immediate political end of things here, my personal objectives are long-term.

[LoZoccolo]

44. There are many many more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_33_Strategies_of_War

[elana i am]

34. you're right

you sound very condescending. who are you, for that matter, who are any of us to question each other about our level of activism? i don't make any assumptions about the activism of anyone who posts on this board. this may be the only outlet for some of us. or maybe some of us spend every waking moment that we aren't on this board engaging in activism or dealing with other parts of life. maybe people who post here want companionship. maybe activists and bystanders alike want commiseration when they let out their frustrations. maybe they want to share something that inspired them with some like-minded people. maybe their only interest in coming here is just having someone to debate with and engage their minds or just gathering information.

personally i come here to get news i wouldn't get elsewhere. circumstances in my personal life don't allow for much free time. i don't even own a tv and i don't have time to read a bunch of different political sites every day. i come here to get as much info in one place as possible in order maximize what little free time i do have. i can't actively participate in activism so my only recourse is to educate myself and to vote, and i donate to DU because i consider it a valuable resource for people like me whose free time is at a premium. to assume that we are all here as part and parcel of greater activism is wrong. even if i did have the time, there are still other things i would rather do to improve and enrich my quality of life before getting heavily involved in activism. that doesn't make me or anyone else who comes here any less of a democrat or a progressive than anyone else. it just means that we have different priorities in life.

[mmonk]

36. I am an activist and I will gladly air my complaints.

But I do alot more than merely complain. I've also worked a few active campaigns at different positions. But forgiveness for not defending the constitution by some in the DLC will never be possible. Our country is vulnerable to not being able to turn around.

[rucky]

40. It's only fair, now, that you show us your activist stripes.

tit for tat

[LoZoccolo]

41. I didn't ask anyone to show me theirs. n/t

[rucky]

42. You just ASSumed they had nothing to show. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

43. When I posted it, I assumed everyone reading it was grown up enough...

...to know not to get their feelings hurt if it didn't apply to them.

[Dr Fate]

45. It's okay- but we still dont forgive you "moderates" for supporting Joe Lieberman (I-3rd Party).

Supporting a candidate who you knew threatened to start 3rd party if he didnt get his way seems contrary to this constant "how to be a good Democrat" lecturing-Not exactly the way to create more progressives, but we will assume your hearts were in the right place. ;)

[avrdream]

47. I'm a moderate but I yelled and screamed at my friends in CT.

Before, during, and after. Even to me, Lieberman looked transparent.

[Dr Fate]

48. Sounds like you are TRUE moderate like me- not the DLC brand of "moderate."

For DLCers and Conservative DEMS- "moderate" means that you often agree with, side with and act to protect the far-right.