Why Biden needs to win - Musharraf and Bhutto turn to Sen. Biden before talking to Bush

[jillan]

(even this idiot-Novak - knows the power Biden has)

BY ROBERT NOVAK Sun-Times Columnist
President Pervez Musharraf and opposition leader Benazir Bhutto each placed telephone calls from Pakistan to Democratic Sen. Joseph Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, to discuss the country's crisis before either talked to President George W. Bush.

On Saturday, Bhutto emphasized to Biden the need for parliamentary elections in January with Gen. Musharraf remaining as president but leaving the army. Musharraf called Biden on Tuesday and asked that their conversation be kept confidential. Biden got the impression Musharraf could accept January elections although he had triggered the crisis by suspending the constitution.

Biden, seeking the Democratic presidential nomination, wants the Bush administration to get actively involved in resolving the situation. He wants development now of a post-election power-sharing agreement between Musharraf and Bhutto.


http://www.suntimes.com/news/novak/644485,CST-EDT-NOVAK11.article

Biden already has the respect of foreign leaders....and after all the damage this administration caused, this is *exactly* who we need in the Whitehouse.
I don't want another person in charge that is clueless. There is too much on the line right now.

[LiberalEsto]

1. Biden is pretty clueless about us common folk

He voted for that bankruptcy bill that is now hurting so many people. He's too pro-corporate for me.

[jillan]

2. Yeah - his campaign is really swimming in those corporate donations, isn't it?

:rofl:

Why don't you play around at this site for a while and educate yourself?
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=E01

[Think82]

3. ohmigod, AGAIn with the bankruptcy bill? Haven't you read the other 800 posts on this?

read this
http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=234426&...

and also Biden's endorsement in "The NAtion." I can't believe we are still talking about the bankruptcy bill.

[jillan]

4. The leaders of a country with nukes that is in turmoil calls Biden instead of the Prez, and this

person is worried about their credit card.

[gateley]

6. I'm appreciative of the fact that you realize he voted for this - rather than

charging that he sponsored it (which he didn't) which most people charge.

But on the OTHER HAND (:7 ) check out who's raking in the dough from corporate banks -- not Biden:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=F03

Biden really isn't clueless about our common folk. He's gets very high marks from the ACLU, NAACP and other pro-people groups. He has authored, sponsored and/or voted on countless legislation for we the people.

If you're interested I'm more than happy - and proud - to supply additional info. If not, I totally respect that, but felt compelled to clarify that despite that bankruptcy bill, he's not the ogre you may think.

Let me know. :hi:

[LiberalEsto]

9. I met and interviewed Biden

the first time he ran for president, sometime back in the 1970s. I was a newspaper reporter at the time. He said a lot of good things, talked a good talk, and gave a very good impression. But I didn't feel there was any genuine substance behind him -- that he was telling his audience what they wanted to hear. He's a great talker. After watching him in politics over the years, that is still my gut impression.

Thanks for your information and your reasonable response.

I am unhappy about his bankruptcy bill vote and his vote on the Iraq War authorization. Not to protect my credit cards -- but because I worry about the number of people caught in financial traps created by lack of medical insurance.

When I said he was too pro-corporate for my taste, I did not mean that he was raking in the corporate bucks. I meant that he too frequently casts votes favoring big corporations, because his home state of Delaware is home to so many of them. Hillary is far too corporate.

Call me an idealist, but I find that Dennis Kucinich most closely aligns with my personal values. I will support whoever becomes the party nominee, but I would prefer that the party stop catering to corporations and place more value on the rights of the average American.

[gateley]

13. I have to laugh because, in direct contrast to you, I feel he's got a LOT of

'genuine substance' and that's one of the main reasons I was drawn to him to begin with. I find it absolutely fascinating how we each respond so differently to the same stimulus (is that the word I want to use?)

And I TOTALLY understand your views about Kucinich. He's always my soul mate when I take those "who's the best candidate for you" quizzes. I just feel more confident of Biden's ability to handle the office of President at this time and I find I'm not compromising my personal values in the least.

Good luck to both our candidates! :toast:

[beachmom]

20. Local vs. national politics. I'm not a Biden supporter, but you know,

those credit card companies in Deleware are not isolated entities. They actually create a great deal of jobs for people in that state. I also did not like that bankruptcy bill, but Sen. Biden does need to take care of his state, and I think either way, it put him between a rock and a hard place on that vote: hurt some people in the state who face bankruptcy or hurt JOBS in that state. Tough call. And it pays all of us to remember that each senator represents their STATE and those state's interests as well as the nation in congressional leadership roles.

[democrat2thecore]

30. The first time Biden ran for president was 1988, not the seventies -nt

[ginchinchili]

40. Oops. Slippidy doo dah.

[LiberalEsto]

45. I thought it was 1976 or 1980

I don't think he was an official declared candidate. He came to NJ to speak because he was exploring running. Most of the people there thought he was way too young and inexperienced at the time.

[democrat2thecore]

55. He never explored a run either until 1988

In '76 he was still in deep grief over the loss of his wife and child. In 1980, Carter ran for re-election and was challenged only by Kennedy and Jerry Brown. Biden passed on '84 and officially announced for the 1988 Democratic nomination on June 9,1987 in Wilmington.

[IronLionZion]

52. I find him to be more genuine than most politicians

and he says what's on his mind rather than what is carefully scripted and tested in front of focus groups. Delaware is a small state. Those voters tend to really get to know their leaders and they like biden.

[Steely_Dan]

35. A Respectful Response...

Thanks. Just keep offering avenues of education to those that do not know the facts. It is the respectful way to respond.

Appreciate it.

-Paige

[ginchinchili]

8. You obviously haven't adequately informed yourself on this issue.

He has less money in his coffers than anyone else, except maybe Kucinich. He never deals with lobbyists and he won't invest in stocks so that there will never be a conflict of interest, real or apparent. He's the only candidate who isn't a millionaire (though, again, I'm not sure about Kucinich). One of Delaware's biggest employers (maybe the biggest?) are the banks who are the major issuers of credit cards. As with all senators, yours and mine include, he owes it to his constituents to help protect their jobs, but his compensation is that the people of Delaware are happy with his job performance and so reelect him, not that banks are making him rich or funding his campaign like most of the other candidates.

In addition, I'm a "common folk" who was ripped off by a business partner who was pocketing money that was supposed to be going to our overhead and to pay our vendors. He ran up a huge debt, the business was shut down, and he filed for bankruptcy. Me, our other partner, and the vendors--common folk--were stiffed. His wife invested some of the money in her name and the rest he spent on expensive toys and trips. Had this taken place 6 months later he wouldn't have been able to get away with it because of the bankruptcy bill. Not everything about the bill was bad. Responsibility and self-discipline are good qualities, not bad.

The bankruptcy laws needed overhauling. The Republicans were in power. Biden could either sit on his hands and do nothing until the Democrats were back in power, or he could look for opportunities to do some good even though there were problems with this particular bill. The Democrats are now in control Congress. If Biden, or any other Democrat, becomes president, you either amend the law or write a whole new bill. Biden will sign it into law and the problem is solved. Is there a candidate you're supporting and, if so, what efforts have they made on this issue?

[gateley]

14. G, you ROCK! Again, another perspective which opens my eyes and helps

me understand better the big picture. :hug:

[youthere]

47. Didn't Clinton and Edwards vote in favor of similar bills in 2000 and 2001?

[IronLionZion]

49. Some of the worst (and richest) people in the world file for bankruptcy

to keep from paying somebody something. Deadbeat dads do it to keep from paying child support. Sued corporations do it to keep from paying their punitive damages. Wealthy people do it because they were living beyond their means and feel it's easier to hire lawyers and accountants to hide their income than to pay their bills.

Donald Trump has filed for bankruptcy.

http://www.bankruptcy-blog.freebankruptcyevaluation.com/famous-people-have-filed-bankr/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/business/yourmoney/17broke.html?ei=5090&en=924c13d4c85d73f5&ex=1316145600&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

[kad7777]

5. Comparatively speaking

You can compare the bankruptcy bill to all the democratic candidate's faults and blunders, and it isn't a fraction of what they have in their closets. When people bring up the bankruptcy bill they're reaching at straws because there isn't much on the negative side with Joe Biden. After close to 35 years in the Senate, if the bankruptcy bill is the only issue people can find about Joe Biden as a reason note to vote for him, my guess is they weren't going to vote for him in the first place. They probably have another dog in the fight. So be it. For me, it's not even worth discussing. Much bigger fish to fry with what's going on in the Middle East and South Asia. MUCH BIGGER. And everyone knows the candidate best qualified to deal with this Armageddon is Joe Biden.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtGCaqOdIJ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUC8LeZ1hM4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HcXkLbRIWw

[gateley]

7. Love what you said, Kad - very well stated! nt

[Alexander]

11. There's more than just the bankruptcy bill..

Biden's a Drug Warrior, voted for the IWR, prevented witnesses from testifying about Clarence Thomas, voted for the border fence, voted for NCLB, voted for Clinton's welfare reform, is not friendly to gun rights, voted for Michael Hayden, voted for DOMA, voted for the Partial-Birth Abortion ban, and would give the Republicans endless amounts of material to work with, since he's extremely gaffe-prone.

I'd like Biden as Secretary of State or some position where he can use his diplomatic and foreign policy skills. I really don't like Biden's domestic agenda and don't want him as president.

[gateley]

12. You cite the most common points people don't like Biden - and then some!

I'm going to have to go look up NCLB, Michael Hayden, DOMA and Clinton's welfare reform - you've given me a LOT to do! I honestly thank you for citing these issues - I want to know as much as I can about the person I'm supporting, warts and all.

I have what I believe are justifiable - and acceptable to me - explanations for the other issues you refer to (the ones I'm familiar with), with the exception of some very specific points on the bankruptcy bill. My general sense of the man is that he's a good person and his intent is honorable, so until I find out something that threatens that view, I'm still in his corner.

[Alexander]

15. Hey, at least we're having a rational discussion about Biden.

I will even concede that as a diplomat, Biden's skills would be nearly unparalleled.

However, I disagree with nearly every domestic idea Biden has.

I'm super-liberal when it comes to the economy, and a libertarian socially. So I don't like welfare reform, the partial-birth abortion ban, DOMA, the Drug War, CAFTA, NAFTA, GATT, the WTO or the Assault Weapons Ban (which Biden also voted for). Thankfully Biden agrees with me on at least free trade.

While his foreign policy creds impress me, I would not want him in charge of domestic policy at all.

[gateley]

21. Okay. I finished the assignment of looking into the issues you cited in your

previous post, and with your leanings, I understand your disagreements with him. Won't try to change your mind or "explain" Biden's stance on them.

Tell me about Michael Hayden. I found out who he IS, but not any info as to why you think Biden shouldn't have supported him.

Thanks!

[Alexander]

31. Hayden headed the warrantless wiretapping program as NSA director.

The same General Hayden who is the CIA director and former NSA director also claimed there's no "probable cause" in the Fourth Amendment:

"QUESTION: Jonathan Landay with Knight Ridder. I'd like to stay on the same issue, and that had to do with the standard by which you use to target your wiretaps. I'm no lawyer, but my understanding is that the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution specifies that you must have probable cause to be able to do a search that does not violate an American's right against unlawful searches and seizures. Do you use --

GEN. HAYDEN: No, actually -- the Fourth Amendment actually protects all of us against unreasonable search and seizure.

QUESTION: But the --

GEN. HAYDEN: That's what it says.

QUESTION: But the measure is probable cause, I believe.

GEN. HAYDEN: The amendment says unreasonable search and seizure.

QUESTION: But does it not say probable --

GEN. HAYDEN: No. The amendment says --

QUESTION: The court standard, the legal standard --

GEN. HAYDEN: -- unreasonable search and seizure.

QUESTION: The legal standard is probable cause, General. You used the terms just a few minutes ago, "We reasonably believe." And a FISA court, my understanding is, would not give you a warrant if you went before them and say "we reasonably believe"; you have to go to the FISA court, or the attorney general has to go to the FISA court and say, "we have probable cause." And so what many people believe -- and I'd like you to respond to this -- is that what you've actually done is crafted a detour around the FISA court by creating a new standard of "reasonably believe" in place in probable cause because the FISA court will not give you a warrant based on reasonable belief, you have to show probable cause. Could you respond to that, please?

GEN. HAYDEN: Sure. I didn't craft the authorization. I am responding to a lawful order. All right? The attorney general has averred to the lawfulness of the order.

Just to be very clear -- and believe me, if there's any amendment to the Constitution that employees of the National Security Agency are familiar with, it's the Fourth. And it is a reasonableness standard in the Fourth Amendment. And so what you've raised to me -- and I'm not a lawyer, and don't want to become one -- what you've raised to me is, in terms of quoting the Fourth Amendment, is an issue of the Constitution. The constitutional standard is "reasonable." And we believe -- I am convinced that we are lawful because what it is we're doing is reasonable.

QUESTION: (Off mike.)

MR. HILL: I'm sorry.

Thank you very much, General Hayden.

And with that, this proceeding is over. Thank you."

I hope this educates you a bit about Hayden, and why I don't like Biden's vote for him.

[Think82]

22. Okay, now that you've admitted your "super-liberal and super-libertarian" stances it makes it easier

to understand where you're coming from. I have to admit I'm more of a pragmatic moderate democrat so our disagreements on Biden's domestic policies make sense . He's still solidly in the liberal camp, though, and I feel Biden could build a bigger consensus and still strongly move the country back towards the left, since we've had 27 years of our politics being pushed to the right.

[Alexander]

32. Biden is a moderate at best. Even Hillary is to the left of him on some issues.

And Hillary is not somebody I'll ever vote for unless the general election were between her and a Republican fascist.

[ellacott]

17. Most Dems voted for NCLB

Ted Kennedy was extremely influential in getting the Dems to vote for this.

[Alexander]

18. Yes, and they made a big mistake in doing so.

For other examples in which the majority of Democratic senators do the wrong thing, see: Iraq War Resolution.

[Steely_Dan]

36. I'll Have To Study The Issues Better...

...I suppose.

But my question for you is: If you are in such disagreement on his voting record, philosophically speaking, would you really want him to be SOS? I mean, wouldn't some the thinking behind the domestic issues bleed over into international issues?

-P

[Alexander]

42. Biden as Secretary of State would not have any power.

"If you are in such disagreement on his voting record, philosophically speaking, would you really want him to be SOS? I mean, wouldn't some the thinking behind the domestic issues bleed over into international issues?"

Thankfully the Secretary of State has no domestic role and does whatever the president tells them to do anyway. I think this is the role best suited for Biden - a well-respected diplomat with no real power. Most of my problem with Biden is on his domestic agenda, not his foreign policy. I could tolerate Secretary of State Biden.

[jillan]

43. You really think he is going to let Hillary or

Obama order him around?


Thanks for ending my day with a good laugh!

[Alexander]

56. I think if Biden doesn't win the nomination (which is highly likely)...

...he might like a Cabinet post in a new Democratic administration.

[louis-t]

10. Funny how they call an adult before meeting with..

the little shit.

[demommom]

16. Here! Here!

[beachmom]

19. Well, there is a rift apparently between Dick Cheney and the State Dept.

It was smart of the Pakistani leaders to go to the Democratic SFRC chairman instead. If you come to think of it, that's pretty scary how little credibility Bush has. OTOH, it's kind of nice that there IS confidence in our Democrats in the Senate.

[gateley]

24. The confidence isn't necessarily in our Dems in the Senate, but rather confidence

in Biden himself. He's met with both Musharraf and Bhutto and established a rapport, and it appears they felt more comfortable speaking with Biden and soliciting his input than they did with Rice. We need someone who HAS a dialogue going with the world players.

[Faryn Balyncd]

23. Who did they call? . . . . Not Bush, Cheney, Rice, HRC, Giuliani, Romney . . . . ) . . . . BIDEN !

[cuke]

25. A powerful reflection of his incredible creds on foreign policy

Thank god that whoever wins, we have Biden on our side.

[LadyAziz]

26. Damn!

His foreign policy knowledge is something this country could use.

Keep it up Mr. Biden;-)

[PatSeg]

27. Good grief - Novak said something positive about a

Democrat??? Must be the End Times!

[fujiyama]

28. This is a scathing indictement of the incompetance of republican leadership

It should come as no surprise, considering Biden can actually hold an intelligent and informed conversation on what is going on, as opposed to anyone in this administration.

I'll admit, I still haven't forgiven Biden on his bankruptcy bill vote, and it's sort of a deal breaker for the primaries (for me), but his stock has gone up in my eyes because especially with regards to foreign policy, he mostly has his shit together. No, he's not perfect, but he's knowledgeable and mostly rational.

[jillan]

29. I think this is a huge statement about Biden's credentials, bigger than any endorsement.

This says exactly who this man is.

[ginchinchili]

33. Fujiyama, I posted this earlier (above). I apologize for being lazy.

But if I were to restate it, it would basically come out the same. I hope you'll give this some thought:

Sen. Biden has less money in his coffers than anyone else, except maybe Kucinich. He never deals with lobbyists and he won't invest in stocks so that there will never be a conflict of interest, real or apparent. He's the only candidate who isn't a millionaire (though, again, I'm not sure about Kucinich). One of Delaware's biggest employers (maybe the biggest?) are the banks who are the major issuers of credit cards. As with all senators, yours and mine include, he owes it to his constituents to help protect their jobs, but his compensation is that the people of Delaware are happy with his job performance and so reelect him, not that banks are making him rich or funding his campaign like most of the other candidates.

In addition, I'm a "common folk" who was ripped off by a business partner who was pocketing money that was supposed to be going to our overhead and to pay our vendors. He ran up a huge debt, the business was shut down, and he filed for bankruptcy. Me, our other partner, and the vendors--common folk--were stiffed. His wife invested some of the money in her name and the rest he spent on expensive toys and trips. Had this taken place 6 months later he wouldn't have been able to get away with it because of the bankruptcy bill. Not everything about the bill was bad. Responsibility and self-discipline are good qualities, not bad.

The bankruptcy laws needed overhauling. The Republicans were in power. Biden could either sit on his hands and do nothing until the Democrats were back in power, or he could look for opportunities to do some good even though there were problems with this particular bill. The Democrats are now in control Congress. If Biden, or any other Democrat, becomes president, you either amend the law or write a whole new bill. Biden will sign it into law and the problem is solved. Is there a candidate you're supporting and, if so, what efforts have they made on this issue?

-------
I'm not trying to convince you to agree with Joe Biden on this. I'm just restating this to remind you that there are certain realities in a representative democracy (technically, a republic) that sometimes places our elected officials in no-win situations, or more precisely, they win with some at the expense of losing with others. If you look at the entire picture objectively you should at least be able to understand why Biden voted as he did. Would you have done differently if you were in his shoes, at the expense of possibly losing your seat to someone you thought wouldn't serve your people as well? I would also encourage you to look at the last sentence in the paragraph above this one. How much better is the candidate who has done nothing about the bankruptcy issue as it stands today, particularly if they aren't from Delaware?

[fujiyama]

59. I am sorry for your situation

and I certainly think deadbeats should be made to pay up and those abusing the system should be held to account.

However, I don't view that as a good excuse for supporting this bill. Many of the bankruptcies declared are due to outrageous medical expenses. Biden voted against several exceptions to the bill. I also think this bill will stifle entrepreneurship, as people will be more hesitant to take risks to start a business. Now, I'm not saying some overhaul may not have been necessary, but ultimately this is a bill which was basically passed at the behest of credit card companies. They wrote that bill and got it rammed through.

I view his support of the bill as pure whoring for the credit card industry. Nothing more. I don't need excuses from him, just as I don't from my own senators about refusing to pass higher CAFE standards or stricter emissions standards. It's an inability to rock the boat with regards to major industries in their state. And it's not as though residents of Delaware are not going to suffer high medical expenses or the residents of Michigan wouldn't benefit from high fuel mileage standards.

All that said, overall my senators, as well as Biden are not bad. I won't hold these particular votes against them in a general election because more than likely a republican would have voted against everything I believe in anyways.

[ginchinchili]

60. I guess I just think there are better ways of paying for our health care.

And if the situation is really as egregious as you're suggesting, one can only assume that whomever it is that you are supporting is doing their utmost to change our bankruptcy laws. I'd be interested in hearing about that. In addition, if this is so devastating, why isn't it an issue in this election? This doesn't mean that no candidate has talked about it, but I sure haven't heard any candidate discussing it. It hasn't been a question during any of the debates. I haven't seen it listed in any survey results, not even at the bottom of people's priorities. You sure don't seem to have any problem dismissing the loophole that so many were using to take advantage of the system which amounted to legalized theft. I stand by my position. When the other Party is in power sometimes you have to play ball just to get anything done. Let's hope for our sakes there are enough Republicans who agree with me on that, now that Democrats are in power.

[skipos]

34. This is a really big deal to me, and I wasn't a Biden 08 guy a few months ago

I definitely want a candidate who can repair the damage that has been done to America internationally. IN the last few years we have lost a lot of respect, influence, and power to solve problems. Any Democrat is going to improve our standing over any Republican, but Biden definitely has an edge here.

[Steely_Dan]

37. Please Give Biden A Second Look

He is NOT perfect. But none of the other candidates are either. If you agree that Foreign Affairs is at or near the top of our priorities for the next several years, you must give Biden a serious look. This is an intelligent, genuine, experienced statesman who I believe has the best chance of turning this ship of state around.

-Paige

[Hippo_Tron]

38. Biden would make an excellent Secretary of State

[ginchinchili]

39. Except that it would leave the world wondering:

This guy is sharper than their president. Why didn't they just make HIM president? Lord knows we have the world wondering enough about us, and it's no longer amusing. If you can show us a candidate who is more qualified than Joe Biden, than maybe you can make your case.

[jillan]

41. Well said! And I like what Biden says - "Why would you vote for anyone that isn't qualified to be

Sec'y of State?"

[UrbScotty]

44. I think he'll make a GREAT Sec. of State for Pres. Obama.

:-)

[ginchinchili]

53. If Obama is the nominee he'll never get the opportunity to appoint a SoS.

The Republicans would make mince meat out of him due to the simple fact that we are currently at war--2 wars to be precise--the middle east could erupt into a major regional war at any time, and Barack Obama has zero, I repeat, zero foreign policy experience. He's young. He's got plenty of time to get the experience he needs to be president and to run again, but he's not experienced enough now. Sen. Obama will not be president in 2009.

[UrbScotty]

61. If Obama can't win, I doubt ANY Dem can win

They'd do that thing to almost anyone we nominate.

[dugggy]

63. Obama is the least electable out of

Hillary
Edwards
Biden
Gov of NM whats his name

[jillan]

54. It is more important that the President is more knowledgeable than his sos -

not the other way around.

[Think82]

57. Obama has done a great job of adopting Biden's original ideas so far, so you may be right : )

Me, I like ot vote for the IDEA guy. BIDEN

[AngryAmish]

46. Biden (D- MBNA)

He is as much to blame as anyone for the sub-prime mess we are in.

[Inuca]

48. Not again! Nonsense, and you know it

or at least I hope you do

[IronLionZion]

50. Can you back that up?

Show us where he supports sub-prime mortgages.

[IronLionZion]

51. check this out

"Mr. Stephanopoulos: This is — this is basically a yes-no question. We’ve seem all this turmoil in the markets over the last couple of weeks, caused by the credit crunch and the crisis in the mortgage markets. We saw, on Friday, the Federal Reserve lowered the discount rate for banks. Should they lower rates for everyone else, yes or no?"

"Senator Biden: The answer is yes. But we need, as the governor says, more transparency, particularly with regard to hedge funds and private equity funds. They are the ones that are causing this thing to go under. And there’s no transparency, no accountability. We don’t know how deep this problem is.

Chris will take care of it in the Banking Committee, and I mean that sincerely.

But we don’t know how deep this problem is. But I think it’s much deeper. It’s almost as deep in terms of dollars, not liability, as the savings and loan crisis. "

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/debate-outtakes-the-mortgage-crisis/

Please take a look at Biden's campaign site when you get a chance http://www.joebiden.com/home

and check out www.ontheissues.org for issue positions for every candidate and www.opensecrets.org can help you out with where the donations are coming from. Why aren't the corporate banks (or any corporations or lobbyists) supporting Biden?

[democrat2thecore]

58. Good research, good post! -nt

[dugggy]

62. I could'nt agree more...Biden is what we need in WH

I have always liked the guy from way back when...I am talking
decades...whenever I saw him on TV programs.