Obama's statements on the LGBT community and McCluckhead redux

[Capn Sunshine]

"I have clearly stated my belief that gays and lesbians are our brothers and sisters and should be provided the respect, dignity, and rights of all other citizens. I have consistently spoken directly to African-American religious leaders about the need to overcome the homophobia that persists in some parts our community so that we can confront issues like HIV/AIDS and broaden the reach of equal rights in this country.

I strongly believe that African Americans and the LGBT community must stand together in the fight for equal rights. And so I strongly disagree with Reverend McClurkin's views and will continue to fight for these rights as President of the United States to ensure that America is a country that spreads tolerance instead of division." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barack Obama on LGBT RIGHTS

Expand Hate Crimes Statutes
In 2004, crimes against LGBT Americans constituted the third-highest category of hate crime reported. Obama co-sponsored legislation to expand federal hate crimes law to include crimes perpetrated because of sexual orientation or gender identity.

Fight Workplace Discrimination and Promote Rights
Obama believes the Employment Non-Discrimination Act should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity. Obama sponsored legislation in the Illinois State Senate that would ban employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

Support Full Civil Unions and Federal Rights for LGBT Couples
Barack Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples equal legal rights and privileges as married couples, including the right to assist their loved ones in times of emergency as well as equal health insurance, employment benefits, and property and adoption rights. Obama also believes we need to fully repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions.

Oppose a Constitutional Ban on Same-Sex Marriage
Obama voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment, which would have defined marriage as between a man and a woman and prevented judicial extension of marriage-like rights to same-sex or other unmarried couples.

Repeal Don’t Ask-Don’t Tell
Obama believes we need to repeal the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. The key test for military service should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve.
Obama will work with military leaders to repeal the current policy and ensure we accomplish our national defense goals.

Fight AIDS Worldwide
Obama has been a global leader in the fight against AIDS. He traveled to Kenya and took a public HIV test to encourage testing and reduce the stigma of the disease. Obama worked to reauthorize the Ryan White CARE Act, one of the largest sources of federal funds for primary health care and support services for HIV/AIDS patients.

I hope this lends some clarity to the obfuscation.

Ok , now back to your regularly scheduled flamefest. I gotta run, so I'll check back later most honorable flame warriors.

[TechBear_Seattle]

1. Meanwhile, keep giving McClurkin credibility by appearing in his roadshow

He can't have this cake and eat it too, no matter how desperate he gets.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Actions speak louder than words

Obama provided a platform for a hatemonger.

[TechBear_Seattle]

33. Indeed

I base my vote on action, not election year rhetoric. On that basis, Kucinich is the one and only candidate who will get my vote.

[MethuenProgressive]

86. Obama made his choice. He stands with Hatemongers.

He decided who has more money to contribute, and dropped to his knees.

[Joe Bacon]

87. Obama lost my vote over Donny the Dork

I'll back Kucinich or Dodd since they are the only ones standing up and defending the Constitution

[JeffR]

2. No flames, but if I interpret this correctly

it seems Obama is a crusader for gay rights who has no problem associating with a rabid homophobe. I'm just flat-out puzzled by this. Seeing the list you provided only makes Obama's actions even more inexplicable and unjustifiable, in my mind.

[Capn Sunshine]

8. It's part of Obama's whole philosophy

He tries to reach out to other people, and apparently his statements on how he's opposed to Mc Lurkin's Views just aren't sinking in.

Obama's general philosophy expands this view of reaching out, he really believes it. Read "Audacity of Hope" and you will see that he's trying to break down the intense polarization which is crippling our political system. It's hard for the intensely polarized to let go in order to move things forward, yet it's so necessary. I don't expect most of DU to understand this.

[CyberPieHole]

31. No, the compexity of this issue is beyond a level "most of DU" could understand...

:eyes:

Pot. Kettle. Puce.

[Evergreen Emerald]

34. he screwed up and there is no color of lipstick that will hide that pig

Your post makes no sense. He is bringing the homophobes together with the homosexuals? Why didn't he bring white supremacists too? Just bring people together.

He messed up.

[yardwork]

45. Will Obama be reaching out to white supremacists next? Giving them stage time?

Will Obama be featuring a well-known Holocaust denier at his next campaign event?

This "reaching out" crap is b.s.

[hedgehog]

64. I don't know. How many holocaust deniers are talented , popular singers? nt

[closeupready]

109. You're conceding that McClurkin is homophobic?

??

[Nuntius_Barbari]

83. Do you realize how badly that comes across?

Paraphrasing, to make it what I'm hearing from you: "So sorry, Obama and I are too intelligent for most of you DUer's to follow this philosophy."

That's BS. Obama made decisions to get backing amongst the LGBT community and now he is also trying to reach a community with religious beliefs that opposes some behavior within the LGBT community. The uproar is because both communities see the basic problem - Obama is trying to have it both ways and get support from both without having to repudiate the other. I don't see it happening. The problem will continue and eventually he will lose both communities.

[eallen]

42. He works in the Senate, Should he give cold shoulder to 40 senators?

There are a lot of homophobic, Republican senators. Refusing to associate with them would have made Obama pretty useless in the Senate. For a broad range of issues, one has to associate with people who disagree with you.

There is a better argument that his association with this preacher was more partisan. But now any criticism parses with a finer comb, and thereby pulls with less force.

:hippie:

[yardwork]

46. Will Obama be featuring homophobic Republican senators at his campaign events?

Will Obama be giving a half-hour to Inhofe to talk about his views on global warming during Obama's next campaign stop?

Association with people and being polite to them is one thing. Featuring them as a Master of Ceremonies while the crowd roars its approval is quite another.

[eallen]

54. If he can manage it, maybe.

Failing to get elected is failing. If the Democratic nominee can get some homophobic, Republican senators to work for them in the general election, without having to adopt their views, that would be quite a coup.

:hippie:

[FreeState]

58. There is a difference between associating and giving a platform to spew hatred from N/T

[Lucinda]

60. The explanation is gaining the "religious" vote.

Which is why Donnie wasn't removed from the concert. That would have been bad for business.
Why he was included in the first place is a whole different question....

[ruggerson]

3. Hobamaphobia

Main Entry: ho·ba·ma·pho·bia
Pronunciation: \ˌhō-bə-məˈfō-bē-ə\
Function: noun
Date: 2007
: irrational fear of, aversion to taking a moral stand opposing bigotry against homosexuality or homosexuals when it might cost votes
— ho·ba·ma·pho·bic \-ˈfō-bik\ adjective

[madfloridian]

4. Thanks for presenting his view without attacking others while doing it.

That is the point I have tried to make.

Nice post.

[Capn Sunshine]

15. And for that reason, it will be attacked.

but it's actually a non-issue elsewhere. Everywhere elsewhere. Outside of a few blogs.

[closeupready]

110. Yet, you started this thread. Why not let this "non-issue" die?

??

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

6. "I have clearly stated my belief that..." It is not a BELIEF, dang it

"I have clearly stated my belief that gays and lesbians are our brothers and sisters and should be provided the respect, dignity, and rights of all other citizens."

Who the heck is supposed to be impressed by Obama's adoption of what he seems to think is a novel and personal belief that gay people are human beings.

And if you think that's nit-picking, ask yourself whether his campaign would have ever allowed a statement to go out starting with, "I have clearly stated my belief that Chinese people are our brothers and sisters..."

[FredScuttle]

7. Obama '08: We Need The Votes....By Any Means Necessary

n/t

[Solon]

9. If Obama was serious about respecting GLBT people, then he would have kicked the fucker off the...

tour. He has shown his outright contempt for GLBT folks, he can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned.

[Apollo11]

43. You just called a gay man a "fucker"

Maybe you are the one who is disrespecting? :eyes:

[yardwork]

47. To be fair, he called a closeted self-loathing gay man a "fucker."

[Apollo11]

51. He also advocated the use of physical violence, i.e. kicking

Does anyone here endorse ex-gay-bashing? :eyes:

[Solon]

61. No, its a figure of speech...

That means Obama should have prevented McClosetCase from being on the tour, to fire him.

[zulchzulu]

10. Two videos to watch on the McClurkin issue

McClurkin's statement at the concert (he was one of four acts):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dUp16hFzY8

Barack Obama was questioned on the McClurkin performance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIQLwe-MmxY

You be the judge... as for McClurkin, as much as I may disagree with his past statements, this statement by him should be taken as it stands. As for Obama's statement, in my view, he clearly shows that he disagrees with McClurkin's views.

People who are mad that Obama didn't cancel McClurkin's one performance would have said he dropped McClurkin to "get votes"...

As I've mentioned before, I've done lots of grassroots work for the LGBT community. And I will continue to do so...

[FredScuttle]

12. I'll take McClosetCase's statement as it stands

in my book, "God delivered me from homosexuality" is the statement of a batshit insane clown.

And Obama's press release the day after? The one where he stated "Rev. McClurkin has no problem with happy gays" (I'm paraphrasing)? That's in the same neighborhood of fucking crazy.

[FreeState]

13. Happy gays

What kind of bullshit is that? The religious right believe its impossible to be gay and happy so he is talking out of his ass. Those of us that were raised in Fundamentalist homes know full well double talk when we see it.

[FreeState]

11. He still does not get it... and he has the blood of innocent youth on his hands until he fixes it

Until Obama apologizes for letting a man stand on the stage and attack gay people he will get no respect for me. I see no apology in this. Does he even realize that the hate that was spoken at his event is the exact speech that terrorizes GLBT youth? Does he know how many gay youth attempt suicide while attempting to become heterosexual at the prodding of their ministers and families?

You might think Im extreme, and thats fine, but I firmly believe that until Obama comes out and apologizes and rights the wrongs of his event, Obama has the blood of innocent GLBT citizens on his hands.

[ruggerson]

35. Bingo

and all the Obama apologists should examine their motivations and their moral priorities.

[Bluebear]

14. Plus, the anti-gay concert was "a while back", so long ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3679092

[CyberPieHole]

22. It's ancient history...just get over it...he was only going to sing ONE song...

...but I guess he sang more than one song...and he emceed the event...and then he spoke out against the "unhappy" gays for a bit...:eyes:

[Bluebear]

16. "Fuck it, it's just a dead horse outside of the blogoshpere"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3689912&mesg_id=3691230

[CyberPieHole]

19. We should all just forget about civil righs for "the gays" and get with the program...

Why bother beating a "dead horse"?:eyes:

[Capn Sunshine]

17. Funny, that

I go away and when I come back, every hate filled spew about this whole affair is kicked back up.

I suppose the oppo camp will flog this endlessly regardless of what Obama REALLY SAYS.

Face it, that's how they roll.

Damn.

[FreeState]

20. Do you get it?

Im wonder if you really get why this has pissed off the GLBT community?

I know countless gay men and women who have attempted suicide wile trying to become straight at a church reorientation therapy.

Got it?

Omama allowed a man to stand on stage and praise the virtues of attempting to change your sexuality for God - do you even have any idea how harmful that is? Or how painful that is to those of us who have had to clean up after the mess?

In college I had a good friend that downed a whole bottle of meds and slit his wrists with a kitchen knife because he felt he had failed God because he could not become straight.

Got it yet?

It doesn't matter what gay rights Obama claims he supports when he apparently doesn't even understand what its like to be Gay in America.

[Apollo11]

36. Why does anyone believe in "God"?

There is no objective evidence pointing to the existence of a God.

It's obvious to me that churches are all about making money.

Many Christians believe that Mary got pregnant without having sex.

So why not also believe that gays can change into straights?

The only rational approach is to call B.S. on ALL religion.

But then I am not running for President of the United States.

[UncleSepp]

79. All people who believe in any God are all exactly the same

... not.

Look, I just got back from the bar. While there, I had a hilarious, fun, warm, and wonderful conversation with my fellow barmates... a gay Jewish transman, a gay man, a lesbian non-spiritual non-religious woman, a Unitarian minister, and a United Church of Christ minister. What did we talk about? Spirituality, motherhood, and blowjobs.

So much for what's "obvious to you", my friend. Not all religious people are the same. Not all churches are the same. Not all religions have churches. Yes, religious people may believe in things that do not have objective evidence. You also believe in something that does not have conclusive rational evidence, and yet you speak as if you are intellectually superior for believing in things you make up to please your worldview.

I call BS on you. I think you are a snob, a bigot, and a hypocrite. Why a bigot? What else would you call someone who believes "all x are the same"? Why hypocrite? What else would you call someone who despises people who believe in things that do not have factual evidence, yet who makes decisions and forms opinions contrary to factual evidence? At best, you're lazy and ignorant for not bothering to seek out contradictory evidence that might disprove your viewpoint.

Yeah, I'm turning the firehose on you. I've had a few glasses of wine and I'm sleepy. I don't actually hate your guts or anything, but dammit... you're a progressive, get off your high horse and think about what the hell you are saying.

[Apollo11]

80. My point is - religion causes lots of problems

Because people can use "faith" as a way of defending all kinds of irrational and reactionary opinions.

Like in the example we are talking about. People can say "My religion tells me that gay sex is sinful. Therefore nobody should do it. Therefore we need to save the gays and make them see the light."

And we cannot argue against them because then they can just selectively quote the Bible back at us.

I refuse to argue about which parts of the Bible are OK, and which parts are not.

The only consistent position is to say the WHOLE BIBLE is a CROCK OF S**T.

But there is NO WAY a serious candidate could say that in the USA today.

PS - Thanks for joining the discussion! I enjoyed your input! B-)

[UncleSepp]

107. My point is, it solves a lot of problems, too

On edit: This is a lot of fun. Thanks :-)

Religion, even Christianity, can also motivate people toward kindness, forgiveness, and generosity. The same Bible that supplies the anti-gay bigots with their ammunition challenges other Christians to give up their prejudices and be like the Jesus who welcomed all comers, who healed the lover of the Centurion without any demand that the centurion give up his Roman faith. That Klansmen choose crosses to burn for their symbol of hate does not take the cross away from Martin Luther King. This doesn't say much about the Bible, but it says a lot about people.

You hit the nail square on the head when you said that people can use faith as a way of defending all kinds of irrational and reactionary opinions. Faith is just the weapon used, not the source of the opinion. They bring that with them when they come to church, and take that with them when they go. A person who would have been an anti-gay bigot as a fundamentalist Christian, deprived of his Bible and turned to purely rational ways, would simply construct anti-gay arguments from biology, and likely, evolutionary psychology. Biology has been used to rationally justify sexism, racism, and homophobia, as well as gender equality, racial equality, and equality for homosexual and heterosexual people.

People will use whatever tools they have to make whatever arguments they like. Look around at the arguments surrounding transsexual people's right to self-determination. Trans folks will often make their argument in favor of freedom based on a biological root cause, and will cite a few studies that show transwomen's brains to be more similar to other women's brains than like the brains of men. They'll cite psychiatric studies that show the success of gender transition, at the increase in satisfaction and decrease in depression after transition. Their opponents will cite twin studies that show cases of identical twins, one of whom is transgendered and one of whom is not, to support a nonbiological, nondeterministic cause. They will cite psychiatric studies that show the comorbidity of gender dysphoria with depression and the high rate of suicide for untreated transgendered people as evidence that trans people are mentally ill and need treatment of their minds, not their bodies. Sometimes, you will have both sides quoting the same studies.

It's all angels dancing on the head of a pin, in my opinion: in my opinion, human rights are innate and do not have to be justified by biology, religion, philosophy, or anything else. They don't have to be earned and they can't be taken away or given up. They are inalienable. I can back it up by appeals to nationalism or to religion if I want to, and if I had to, I could probably construct some kind of evolutionary psych argument about how individual liberty increases diversity of thought and behavior in the population, leading to progress of ideas that benefit the entire population, but that wouldn't be why I believe in liberty. I believe in liberty because I want to. It is an ideological assertion.

I'd argue that what's missing is people's ability to make pure ideological assertions and then argue from there. We're all sinking in our own bullshit these days, mistaking our arguments for reasons and our opinions for realities. Faith is what says "I believe because I believe", and in my opinion, we need more of that, not less.

[Apollo11]

81. FreeState - I just saw your sig!

Great song from a great album by a great band! I saw them in concert like around 15 times since 1983! B-)

[closeupready]

112. I also had a gay acquaintance in college swallow a bottle of pills.

Which was a cry for help. And other erratic behavior associated with his self-hatred.

[incapsulated]

23. You started this thread

You brought the whole issue up again.

Really, if you don't get that this isn't an issue the GLBT community here is just going to let slide, I don't know what to tell you at this point. If you think this is all about nasty "opposition" supporters, you aren't paying attention, either.

[CyberPieHole]

18. TRANSLATION: NObama (*ONLY*) panders to bigots and homophobes....

BUT some of his best friends are gay.

Just let me tell you, unless Obama apologizes on his knees for allowing McClurkin to emcee his hate-fest I will not support Obama.

[Capn Sunshine]

21. well your vote isn't going to Obama then

he's made apologies, just not good enough for you.
I suspect your sympathies lie elsewhere anyway.

I've seen apropos screen names before....

[CyberPieHole]

24. No, my vote will go to ANOTHER candidate...

My sympathies lie with people who respect and support civil rights for all...not just themselves. I've seen plenty of screen names with an ironic twist myself...haven't you, sunshine?:evilgrin:

[David Zephyr]

25. "And so I strongly disagree with Reverend McClurkin's views" --- Barack Obama

Capn Sunshine, I thank you for your post. It was thoughtful and puts into perspective Senator Obama's record and his support for GLBT civil rights.

That said, I'm not sure that just that statement alone makes up for the crude and, let's be honest, somewhat deceptive manner his staff handled the entire event with Reverend McClurkin. There is a lot of hurt within the GLBT community and Barack must address it.

Read DU's very own dsc's thread here tonight and you will see that, cutting out those who are clearly pushing another candidate, there is still a lot of hurt and anger over what transpired. That's sad.

My companion is a big Obama supporter and has been all year. Every morning he pins his Obama button on his shirt and out he goes. I'm the guy that bounces around from candidate to candidate as I say "a BB in a box car", but I hate to see Senator Obama misjudging how wounding this episode has been. I don't see this just going away for a lot of the GLBT community.

Your OP was a very good one, but I hope that Senator Obama will do more.

[Egnever]

26. Wow

Quite possibly my favorite post on this subject. Perfectly said.

[Pushed To The Left]

27. K&R! Senator Obama is a true progressive with an excellent civil rights record. n/t

[FreeState]

30. Supporting a spiritual terrorist is not progressive N/T

[ruggerson]

37. "Spiritual Terrorist"

Which is, of course, exactly what they are.

[LeftCoast]

28. I'm sure Obama strongly opposes racism too. Where's his outreach to the KKK?

Sorry Sen. Obama, your words sound nice, but your actions speak louder. Giving a platform for bigots is stupid. It's obvious you wouldn't give a platform to a Klansman, so why would you give a platform for a homophobe?

[CyberPieHole]

29. Oh, but that was "a while back"...

why bother "beating a dead horse"?:sarcasm:

[sandnsea]

32. It's still a bullshit smear campaign

Five different bigots connected to Hillary's campaign have been listed, and nobody cares.

[bullwinkle428]

38. Keep blaming it on "Dr. Hillary Evil's Black Ops Brigade"

Never mind that plenty of those speaking out against Obama are most decidedly NOT Hillary supporters!

[FredScuttle]

39. The "bullshit smear campaign" is being waged by Rev. McClosetCase

the instant he opened up his bigoted mouth at a campaign-sanctioned event and declared "God delivered me from homosexuality"

Why do you insist on ducking any kind of defense of that?

[zulchzulu]

40. That's different... the homophobes linked with Hillary get a free pass

Pay no mind that Donnie McClurkin sang for Mr. Defense Of Marriage Act Bill Clinton and was even at a rally for his Don't Ask, Don't Tell wife this summer in South Carolina and earlier sang for the Clintons.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9400E7DD1F38F937A3575BC0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

That's...um...(cough, cough) different...

:crazy:

[sandnsea]

44. Oh my god, that is unbelievable

No words.

[yardwork]

48. The article you link does say that McClurkin sang for Bill Clinton.

Where is the link showing that McClurkin has been at any rallies for Hillary Clinton? If this is true, I recommend that you start a thread about it and include links. It definitely needs to be looked into. I am not a Hillary Clinton supporter by any means, and I want to know if she is giving McClurkin a platform!

Your link says only that:

Mr. McClurkin has also performed for Presidents George Bush the elder and Bill Clinton, and appeared twice on the Oprah Winfrey show.

[wndycty]

41. Exactly. Criticism of Obama is legit. . .however the fact that many of Obama's critics. . .

...ignore Hillary's associations with homophobes or deem that Obama's association with McClurkin is worse makes me believe there is an agenda here.

Homophobia is intolerable, I cannot state that enough. HOWEVER to hold Hillary to a different standard is very hypocritical in my opinion.

[yardwork]

49. Please provide links to back up your assertions.

If Hillary Clinton or any other candidates are giving McClurkin or other bigots a platform, I want to know about it.

[yardwork]

50. Please provide links. Has Hillary Clinton made them the emcee of a major campaign event?

[sandnsea]

53. State Campaign Chairs ARE Emcees, Every Day n/t

[FreeState]

56. And whom are they telling God will make them acceptable (aka Straight)?

And whom are they telling God will make them acceptable (aka Straight) while speaking for Hillary?


(ps Im not a HC supporter)

[yardwork]

59. No. Not the same thing at all. Sorry.

[AtomicKitten]

52. Great post.

Cheers! K&R

[NMMNG]

55. You can post that a dozen times

It won't undo the five-homophobe concert tour, complete with 30-minute hate sermon. The concert tour that netted Obama some $300,000 and support from a crowd of thousands of homophobes.

[Maven]

Exactly. It was condescending bullshit yesterday, it's condescending bullshit today

and it'll be condescending bullshit tomorrow.

Bye-bye Barack.

:thumbsdown:

[Maven]

57. dupe

[sampsonblk]

62. Wait. Now they're ALL homophobes?

[NMMNG]

63. Yes. Sad, but true.

Obama Gospel Tour: Homophobes: 5, Undecided: 2, Draw: 1

Obama threw us to the wolves for votes and $$$.

[FredScuttle]

65. "The crowd sang and clapped along in full support."

"The concert-goers we talked with afterward were generally more focused on making allowances for Mr. McClurkin’s past homosexuality than on anything about Mr. Obama."

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/29/obamas-gospel-concert-tour/


Was every single concertgoer a homophobe? Of course not. Can we reasonably assume that the majority of the concergoers cheered Rev. McClosetCase's ugly homophobic rant and defended him afterwards? It's right there in black and white.

[sampsonblk]

66. I hate to say I told you so

But I told you so. The vast majority of christians - black or otherwise - agree with what's being said.

Now don't forget that when you see Edwards, Clinton and others with the same type of crowd. The candidates all want to court these voters. Can't win without them.

Edit: My question is how can they all be evil for agreeing with what's being said?

[FreeState]

67. Your wrong here

How can all those good christians believe that Homosexuality is something that can be changed? Simply they do not. See the studies - over half the US do not believe its even a sin.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_poll2.htm

[sampsonblk]

69. Your article is my primary evidence

The stats you cite are of most Americans. Later in the article, the author addresses the issues of church-going Americans:

"Barna Research also determined that 85% of Evangelicals, 61% of born-again adults, and 65% of those who attend conservative Protestant churches believe that a person chooses to be a homosexual."

That's what I was referring to.

So its likely that around 85% or so of the people in the audience at that event were in agreement with what was being said. And that (in theory, of course) will be true in the future, when Clinton and other candidates hold similar events.

[FreeState]

108. Nice try

But your OP says "But I told you so. The vast majority of christians - black or otherwise - agree with what's being said." is says nothing about the majority of only 30% of Christians (that would be Evangelicals in America - they only make up just over 30% of Christians in our country)

[FredScuttle]

68. "vast majority of christians"???

I was referencing a concert the sainted Obama put on in S.C. where he made an "ex-gay" clown the star attraction.

How do you extraoplate that into the "vast majority of christians"?

And you asked...how can they all be evil for agreeing with what's being said? Well, when an "ex-gay" clown is handed a microphone and a starring role by an alleged "progressive" Democratic candidate and delivers such homophobic filth as "God delivered me from homosexuality", the fucking ignorant morons in the crowd that cheered were cheering evil. Why do you not see that?

[sampsonblk]

70. I was citing polls of American christians, blacks and evangelicals

That's where I am coming from.

[FredScuttle]

73. Which polls?

n/t

[sampsonblk]

77. Same ones as before

FreeState just posted one from Religious Tolerance earlier. Find the section (near the bottom) about evangelicals and born-agains.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_poll2.htm

There is the BET poll which I posted before.
Can't seem to find it now. Its almost ram. It was a viewer call-in poll. I'm sur someone else has the link.

Here is a good one from PBS. Very interesting stuff in this poll article from 2004.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week733/release.html

Anyway, there's a lot of polling out there. I am constantly surprised by what I find.

[FredScuttle]

92. All of these polls reference "evangelicals" specifically

it's quite a stretch to extrapolate that out to all of America's christians.

[sampsonblk]

96. Fred...

I can go and find all the other polls again. But so can you if you really want to know how church-goers feel. I am no preacher.

Look at this part again:

"Barna Research also determined that 85% of Evangelicals, 61% of born-again adults, and 65% of those who attend conservative Protestant churches believe that a person chooses to be a homosexual."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_poll2.htm

Add that to this viewer poll from BET in July:

We asked you, "Should the Black church stop condemning and start accepting Black gays and lesbians?" And here's how you voted:

About 64 percent of you said, "No. Most Christians believe it's wrong, and if you see people going down the wrong path, you should try to save them."
http://thejusticeofmh.blogspot.com/2007/07/bet-poll-black-church-and-homosexuality.html

[FredScuttle]

99. You have yet to produce a poll that supports your assertion

the a "vast majority of christians" in America support what that "ex-gay" clown said.

that's all I asked. You can go ahead and make broad-brush assumptions about christians based on extrapolating specific polling if you must.

[sampsonblk]

101. I am doing my best here

I wasn't at the concert and don't have (or want) a transcript of what he actually said that night.

I am saying this to you. It seems that his main point is that he was gay by choice, and that God cured him from it.

From the polling that I have shown you, its plain that the majority of American christians believe that people are gay by choice (from religoustolerance), and that being gay by choice is wrong (from BET) and should not be approved of.

As I said before, you can find this stuff for yourself, if you really want to. Unless you will better if I do the legwork for you. If its that important to you, go looking. There's plenty of information out there. That's what I did.

[FredScuttle]

104. Here....get yourself educated on Rev. Donnie's speech

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2007/10/29/mcclurkin.speech.cnn?iref=videosearch

What I don't see in all the blather you've been hurling out is any statement by you that you disagree with McClosetCase and the majority evangelicals quoted in the polls you cited. All you seem to be saying is "this guy thinks he was cured of teh Gay and since most batshit crazy evangelicals go along with that, we should just shut up and let Obama hire clowns to star in his fundraisers"

[sampsonblk]

105. I don't wanna see that shit

That guy is not welcome in my house any more than he's welcome in yours.

[Solon]

75. To answer your question, yes they are evil if they agree with an evil thing...

I don't see how that is so complicated. Just like Racism is an evil, so is Homophobia and any other prejudice or bigotry.

[NMMNG]

84. They can all be evil

Because they are bigots. The fact that they hide behind their religion is no excuse.

Is that simple enough for you?

[sampsonblk]

85. Quite. Here's a question for you

We have done a lot of talking about genes and causation and all that.

What if a person never disapproved of gay sex before, then went to church and was taught that gay sex is evil? Now the person believes in what McClurkin said.

Q: Is the person a bigot who is using religion as an excuse? Or is the person an honest believer?

[NMMNG]

88. A. It's not "gay sex"

Being gay isn't any more just about "gay sex" than being straight is about "straight sex". I know the bigots like to reduce it to nothing more than the sex so they can make it easier to hate us and make us out to be objects of scorn, but being gay is just like being straight except for who we are romantically and physically attracted to.


B. I'll counter your question with a question.

If my mother taught me that black people are inferior to white people, does that make me a bigot, or just an honest believer?

[sampsonblk]

89. I am not giving up on you

I didn't suggest that being gay is about gay sex. I posed the question that way because that's what's taught in churches. Not that 'being gay' is evil, but that gay sex is evil. I am sure you already know that. And if someone emerges from church and say being gay is evil, then its pretty clear that they are a bigot.

Anyway, I would like a ummm straight answer on that question, if you would.

Answer to your question: Not necessarily. If you have retained an open mind and continue to search for answers, then I'd consider you a work in progress. If not, then you are a hopeless bigot.

[NMMNG]

90. But that's how they get around it

I didn't suggest that being gay is about gay sex. I posed the question that way because that's what's taught in churches. Not that 'being gay' is evil, but that gay sex is evil. I am sure you already know that. And if someone emerges from church and say being gay is evil, then its pretty clear that they are a bigot.


That "hate the sin, love the sinner" nonsense. Being gay is ok, they claim, but acting on it isn't. So, in other words, gay people are supposed to be celibate their entire lives, or to repress their very innate natures, pretend they're straight and date/marry someone of the opposite sex. Hence all of that activity "on the down-low".


What kind of life is that? And who advocates that sort of dishonesty besides bigots? Then they turn around and claim to be loving, pro-family, Godly people. It's sick, disgusting and hateful. So yes, if people are buying that gay people or people who "have gay sex" are bad, even if it's from their church, they are bigots. Even if they do it later in life. There's no justification for narrow minded bigotry.

[sampsonblk]

93. "Love the sinner, hate the sin" IS christianity

That's the basis of Jesus' teachings in a nutshell. If you take that away, you don't have a church, you have a social event.

Teaching "love the sinner, hate the sin" is about a lot more than gay people. Its exactly what Jesus did that got him into such trouble with the Pharisees. Its not a rule to apply to gays, its a rule to apply to church members. Its how they are supposed to use their faith. A church that deviates from that - like those people who protest at funerals - is dangerous to us all.

[NMMNG]

94. Where did Jesus say "Love the sinner, hate the sin"?

Chapter and verse, please.

[sampsonblk]

95. You know that's not how it works

OK where did Jesus say don't shoot people at random, or don't use drugs or don't drown your cat?

As I said, that's the basis of what Jesus taught - with emphasis on the "love the sinner" part. Until Jesus came along, it was all stones, all the time. Jesus spent him time with the outcasts of society. This was unheard of. The Pharisees were mad as fire that a self-respecting rabbi would actually go out and minister to "unclean" people. Jesus never once said their sins were not sins. Never. But he said those without sins cast the first stone. That one sentence has changed the world.

[NMMNG]

97. "Love the sinner, hate the sin"

Is only found in RW style churches. It's nothing more than code-speak. Hate people you consider sinners while maintaining your facade of righteousness and Godly love.



As for the basis of what Jesus taught:

'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "And a second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." ( Matthew 22:37-40)


There's nothing about love the sinner there, merely love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Bigots made up that Love the Sinner Hate the Sin stuff to justify hating people in the name of religion. Nothing more.

[sampsonblk]

100. You are making my point

"Is only found in RW style churches..." Every church I have ever been to is based on that. And I have been to churches all over the place. What you are doing is removing the sin part, and doubling up on the love part. But that is not christianity. I can't even call it cherry-picking because you picked nothing. If there are no sins, then God is no more than Santa Claus.

About your quotes from Jesus:

This is very important. The commandments tell us that there are specific sins. In your quote, Jesus is emphasizing the "love" part, which is foremost of all the laws. Even then, he refers to the commandments - the laws. You left part that out in your conclusion. He never once says the laws are not to be observed. He could have easily said that. But he never did. Never.

Let's remember the Amish school shooting. A disturbed man shot five girls and then himself. "The Amish had five little girls to bury. Several others had been hurt badly. They asked the media to respect their privacy, but wanted the world to know that Charlie Roberts was forgiven." That's loving the sinner. The Amish did not do this to fool you. They didn't do this to keep up their hateful cover. They got it from the book. That's christianity.

Edit: Amish school shooting link (CBS News)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/29/earlyshow/main2622842.shtml

[NMMNG]

102. I'm not removing the "sin" part

I'm removing the "hate" part, which the bigots are so good at doing, and feel so righteous about while doing it in the name of their "deeply held religious beliefs". And when anybody dare question them on it or denounce them for it, they start crying about religious persecution.



This is very important. The commandments tell us that there are specific sins. In your quote, Jesus is emphasizing the "love" part, which is foremost. Even then, he refers to the commandments - the laws. You left part that out in your conclusion. He never once says they are not to be observed. He could have easily said that. But he never did. Never.


True. But have you noticed that none of the people screaming about "family values" are pushing for a Constitutional Amendment to ban adultery? That's against one of the 10 Commandments, and yet they don't want that outlawed--but gay marriage has to be prevented at all costs. And Jesus spoke against divorce repeatedly (and said nothing about homosexuality), yet again there's no nationwide movement for a Constitutional Amendment against that, is there?

It has nothing to do with the Word of God and everything to do with personal bigotries.

[sampsonblk]

103. Absolutely

I can't argue that. These RW bible-thumping types types are not people you'd want to invite to dinner. They are hateful and dishonest. And they use their "faith" as a weapon. Maybe they should open that book up and read it.

[closeupready]

113. Exactly. That's why we have all these closeted politcos running around.

n/t

[NMMNG]

115. Right

Closeted, and making anti-gay legislation to make people's lives hell.

[CyberPieHole]

76. Why "beat a dead horse" this issue only exists in the blogosphere...

:eyes:

[sampsonblk]

78. Just because it isn't a media story doesn't mean its not important

Hell, this story was bigger than Kucinich's impeachment attempt yesterday. What does that tell you?

[NMMNG]

91. You said it wasn't important

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3631561&mesg_id=3692743

[sampsonblk]

98. If I didn't think it was important, I wouldn't continue to discuss it

It wasn't an important story in the campaign. I thought I was pretty clear on that. The media, Obama and all his opponents have already let it go.

[CyberPieHole]

106. The "rolly-eyes" emoticon is there to stress that I am being sarcastic...

I hope I have cleared that up.

[closeupready]

114. yeah, that's what I asked him upthread.

I doubt he'll answer.

[calteacherguy]

72. You need to learn to feel less threatened by the ignorant.

Pity them, and be strong. No one (including McClurkin) is beyond redemption. We can change hearts and minds if we open our hearts and minds.

He's a confused, misguided, tormented gay man. Pity him.

[FredScuttle]

74. He's a clown and I do pity him

What I wouldn't do is give him a microphone and a 1/2 hour at my campaign event to spew his homophobic filth.

Are you in favor of opening your "heart and mind" to a batshit insane homophobe?

[NMMNG]

82. It's easy to talk big when you have all of your civil rights, isn't it?

Try it from the other side one time. It's very different.

[calteacherguy]

71. Thank you so much for posting this! Wonderful! nt

[William769]

111. He talks out both sides of his mouth, now you don't have to ask a gay person.

Just ask a senior!

[terrya]

116. And yet...there McClurkin was on that stage. Spewing his bigoted crap.

Go figure.

Obama gave a big ol' bitch slap to the GLBT community with that disgusting pandering. But some people will never understand that, I guess.

[NMMNG]

117. No, they won't

But we're used to that, aren't we?

[terrya]

118. Yeah, I'm pretty much used to it by now.

Some people are basically uneducatable.