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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:26 PM
Original message
Poll question: Poll: Driver's licenses for undocumented immigrants?
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 07:39 PM by conservdem
I think Dems support for such licenses and similar positions on related issues will lead to a republican presidential victory. I am against such licenses and I am very much in favor of fixing our border problems. What is the general consensus here?

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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ImpeechBush Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. "I am very much in favor of fixing our boarder problems"
Either very clever or a typo :-)
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. It was a typo. Thanks for pointing it out.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. Does anyone else see this as real problem for us?
Anyone? ... Anyone? ... Bueller? ... Bueller?
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john4012 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Drivers licenses
It is a HUGE problem for us if you consider that nationwide polling is the same as the local polling you are seeing against issuing these licenses. The argument that resonates with the masses the most are that these people are ILLEGAL and shouldn't be rewarded with anything. SEcondly NY is a motor voter State and that means anyone applying for and receiving a license in NY (MA also) is automatically registered to vote. This, some say would open up the possibility of truly MASSIVE voter fraud.

I have a neighbor who while only one person is totally convinced this is a scam by Spitzer to get millions of more democrat votes for the election.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. This is an additional serious problem with the issue. Republicans
will not miss it and it will sway some. The overall question of dealing with illegal aliens in crystallized by the license issue.

More voters on this poll will be helpful and informative.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. .
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 07:37 PM by conservdem
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I have been saying for 6 months that the pukes were going to make this THE issue in the
next election. I was right. Most Americans are opposed to Illegal immigration and the Hispanic vote is not enough to save the Dems. They will not win southern or moderate states because of this issue.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I agree. If I was them, I would run on the issue and it will probably
be a winner. I do not think enough Dems realize how significant an issue this is. They need to recall what happened with that awful immigration reform bill that was stopped by an out cry of the people. This is a HUGE ISSUE. (Please forgive my shouting).

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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
76. You are so right! Dems must not allow themselves to be drawn into the debate on it.
Dems must say "We need to discuss an overall, comprehensive immigration reform plan and not deal with individual parts of it separately."

Of course, we have Dodd up there saying it is a privilege so illegals shouldn't have drivers licenses, so I guess that tells us what his campaign has been polling.

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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. I think its too late to avoid the issue. I just learned Biden
followed Dodd's lead on this and if they are smart the other will shift too.

I think I am with Biden now.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. What did Biden say? Is there a link to his ideas on immigration reform?
He's usually pretty thorough in talking about just about anything and he makes a lot of sense to me.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #80
93. Here's a link.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. I agree with YOU on ALL points.
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 07:36 PM by Double T
I voted for Eliot Spitzer and regret it like HELL. I won't make the same mistake with HRC.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I thought he was an excellent AG.
I would have voted for him had I lived in NY.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Spitzer has turned out to be lousy, arrogant, tyrannical Governor.........
with behavior much like GWB.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. What a weird concept
I presume they aren't paying insurance, so points on their licenses aren't going to mean anything.

And, once they are licensed, aren't they in fact documented?

Maybe we should make the companies who hire them pay damages for accidents they get in.
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. why do we need a driver's license?
(1) to prove that we've passed the basic requirements for driving: (a) good eyesight, (b) safe driving skills, (c) understanding of traffic rules and symbols.
(2) proof of identitiy

We need driver's licenses to help maintain public safety. Without it, we might as well let anyone drive, including my 7 year old neighbor.

As long as illegal immigrants are part of our society, they should be granted driver's licenses as proof that they're qualified to drive a car or truck.
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seasat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Also you can't get auto insurance without a license.
I'd rather not have unqualified, uninsured drivers on the road.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. You really think many illegal aliens are going to be seeking a
license so they can buy auto insurance?
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seasat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. No but more will buy insurance than if they continue unlicensed
Edited on Sat Nov-03-07 12:34 PM by seasat
Being a licensed and insured driver will help them with some jobs. They also won't have to pay a fine or worry about their license being revoked for being an uninsured motorist.

The vast majority of folks here illegally do not want to be criminals but are here to escape and lift their families out of overwhelming poverty. Their remittances to their families back home are one of the major supports for the poor in Latin America according to several studies. They'll follow laws requiring it because it will draw less attention to themselves than if they are caught unlicensed and uninsured. If I was in the same situation that most of them are in, you can bet that I'd be sneaking across the border to support my wife and kids.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
60. The fine here for driving without insurance is $800
So yes, they do want to be licensed so they can be insured. Insurance is a LOT less expensive than the ticket for not having it.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. I doubt they get prosecuted much on this type of charge.
As it stands now they can simple not appear to answer the charges and keep driving. Even if they appear I doubt much an be done under existing law to force them to pay a fine. I also suspect many police do not press these types of charge due to the futility of do doing so.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #63
71. I seriously doubt you live here
and have no idea that driving without insurance is taken very seriously.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. I do not live in KS if that is the state you are speaking of.
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Bennyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. In CA you can't get a DL
without proof of insurance...
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #31
49. That is not correct
Without proof of liability insurance you can get a DL but you cannot register a vehicle.

If you don't own a car, you CANNOT get car insurance but you can certainly get a DL.

You can buy a car without either a DL or insurance (binder), but you can't register it or drive it on public roads.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
78. Sure, so would I. But are you willing to lose the election on this issue?
The fact is that this issue has become irrational and the irrational people are the most likely voters. It's crazy.

I really don't know if Hispanics who are citizens and do vote will be a vociferous as the other side. I am going to try to find out from my Hispanic activist friends here in New Haven (we have resident IDs that are open to anyone proving they reside in NH, thereby giving our city the "sanctuary" title by RWingers).

If this thing kills us in the General, the country is in for even more death and destruction than we have previously experienced. Even now, it almost seems like it's too late...

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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
81. In New Haven, we have taken care of your # 2, as we have resident ID cards
ifyou can prove residency in the city. Our local banks have signed on to allow people with resident IDs to open bank accounts. This is a public safety issue. In the cash economy of most undocumented workers, there is a rise in theft, holdups and burglaries, a huge crime issue.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. There is no reason for a presidential candidate to have a position.
Licensing drivers is a state matter.
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. But it won't stop there. The Pukes are getting ready to make illegal immigration their platform for
2008 and it's one that the Dems loose on.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. That's kind of a cop out. And they have already taken a position.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
74. The driver's license becomes a federal matter when the license
serves as sole ID in matters governed by the feds, like boarding an airplane.

In some states, apparently, all that is needed to register to vote is the driver's license. You can show up with fake papers and get one. Motor vehicles doesn't check them like the passport office. This could end up giving non-citizens the vote in federal elections when the constitution, IIRC, limits the vote to citizens.

We have enough problems with the integrity of our elections.


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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. I agree that it would be politically difficult to advocate any so-called benefit...
For undocumented workers...

However, personally I think it is a good idea...and would be to the publics benefit to put such a plan in place...
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. How "difficult"?
I think difficult is an underestimation. I know my views are often not in line with the majority here, but i am trying to tell the majority and any campaigns monitoring this site, THIS ISSUE AND SIMILAR ILLEGAL ALIEN ISSUES WILL COST US THE ELECTION.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I think that is an overstatement...
I recall a poll last year that showed a majority were in favor of a guest worker program. In addition this issue divides Republicans as well...

However, a campaign that advocates such benefits would be a poor idea...

And btw, Hillary did not advocate it in the debate, in fact she said it was not a good idea, but understood Spitzer's rationale behind it given the Feds failure...

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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Oh, Thank you Elmer!
Everywhere you turn, the line is quickly becoming that Hillary is advocating illegal immigration. She apparently is very close to being one herself(That's the line, not the truth, but you can bet that very soon we will hear Tucker talking about how Bill is the father of thousands of illegals).

And if I hear one more time that driving "is a privilege, not a right", The neighbors will probably call the police 'cause I'll be screaming so loudly!

Was that Chris Dodd? I don't remember....Does he think that, given that they are already in the country illegally, that not having a license will keep them from driving?

I do, of course agree with the prior comment in this thread that illegals will more than likely not be lining up to "out" themselves, so to speak, buy applying for the special drivers licenses...I forgot who said too. Guess I'd better take a little rest....Who am I? What am I doing here? Did the Kucinich UFO come and get me? Or was it the Reagan psychic?..........

Oh, never mind.....Night night!
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Hillary and all but Dodd will be seen as supporting the concept
because only Dodd took a position against it when the entire group was asked about it.

It's telling that even here at DU, the majority who responded to the poll so far are against the concept (I did not expect this result, but I am glad to see it).

If this poll represents the view of DUers, then this issue is even more troublesome than I had thought. I meet and speak and listen to many people about this and other issues. People feel very strongly about it and the majority will not have a president in favor of this idea or ideas similar to it.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. You need an "other." I don't support the concept except as a safety measure in the current crises
caused by lack of immigration reform.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. My thoughts exactly.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
79. Oh, stop being so rational! You and I both know being rational on this issue
is gonna be political suicide (well, maybe you don't feel that way but it's a tough issue for us). I don't see what we'll gain by being in favor of it. As a practical matter, it just won't happen in most states, so all the arguments about public safety are fine, but irrelevant and can lose us the WH in 08.

I hate to say this because I agree on the public safety point. But there will be a reckoning and when we get in power we can study the entire issue overall, not in piecemeal fashion that will get us nowhere, literally, except out of power.
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LVZ Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-02-07 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
21. Good policy? Bad policy? I don't care. It is dumb politically
Edited on Fri Nov-02-07 09:03 PM by LVZ
This is one issue where Hillary quickly needs to change position before it becomes "the" catastrophic losing election issue for Democrats. I am amazed that, in this case, the politically savvy Clintons did not recognize American political reality: people vote on emotions, not logic, and not practicality.

It took the Democrats decades to finally concede that publicly supporting gun control was political suicide, except in very rare situations. Personally I prefer the common European model of outlawing all guns except for hunting and legitimate law enforcement, to include tough penalties for any illegal gun possession. As a candidate in the gun-religion culture of the USA, however, you'd have to be a blinded idiot to not realize that such advocacy would neither get you elected nor ultimately further the cause of even modest gun control.

Illegal immigration is the new "hot button" emotional issue. Just like guns, for many it is a black and white topic, practical interim and partial solutions be damned.

Whoever wins the "which issue is most important" war in 2008 will determine the outcome. If Democrats can make the issue ending the disastrous and costly war, Hillary wins big time. If Republicans can shift enough attention to "fear and prejudice" (their specialty) about illegal immigration, they win. That is, of course, unless the Democrats suppress their overly idealistic tendencies, and get ahead of this "emotional" issue. After the election, they willl have a better environment to thoughtfully address practical solutions to complicated problems.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
24. I support DL for undocumented immigrants
Why?

There are far too many worse problems with making them do without, that's why. If we had viable public transport in this country I might consider reserving DLs for citizens and legal immigrants. But we don't. A car is as necessary as water in this country.

It's a public safety issue. I don't want to drive down the highway with someone who doesn't know the rules of the road. Serious accidents happen all the time because illigal immigrants are too scared to go get a license. For instance, not every place has stop lights and signs. Plenty of places around here are just rural cross roads. If you grew up here, you know that you're supposed to stop and let the person to the right of you go first. Not every culture does that. Also, not all places let you turn right on red.

And yes, it's important enough that I want those drivers' manuals and the tests printed in other languages. It's that important.

I'm also saying this as someone who has worked with the immigrant community and seen the impact first hand.





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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Do see this issue hurting our chances at winning the Whitehouse?
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I see it as an education issue
People used to think national healthcare was a big scary monster under the bed too.
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LVZ Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Education is fine for those IN POWER, otherwise NUANCE is a losing proposition in elections
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Orangeone Donating Member (395 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. It's the same mindset

that prevents this country from getting national healthcare. Americans are always afraid somebody, somewhere is going to get something they aren't entitled to.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. So are you suggesting it will not hurt our chances?
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. I'm saying I think it won't
if we bother to tell people why we are doing it.

And no it doesn't require a long drawn out overly geeky answer either. All you have to say is something like:

Don't you want to be safer on the road? Don't you want to know that the people you are traveling down the highway with (regardless of their citizenship status) are versed in the rules of the road and that they have insurance?

Or do you want your next accident to be a hit and run?
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. I doubt that will hold up.
Edited on Sat Nov-03-07 07:56 PM by conservdem
I doubt many will believe the illegals will actual seek the license. Most will find it a stretch to believe this will lead to the illegals getting insurance.

Most will, however, see it as a sign that the Dems are happy with the idea of encouraging more illegals.

Also see the post from earlier (post #27) about how the Republicans will argue that we are doing this to document them so they can vote (via motor voter and similar laws).

Given the poll results so far it does not appear that your message would even resonate here at DU.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. And I think your attitude
means just how far we have to go.

It's a shame really that people on a liberal web site aren't really liberal.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. Isn't this a web site for Democrats?
And it appears not to be just my attitude. It appears that the majority here share my view of the issue.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
38. People who oppose them on this board tend to be from non-border states
You're exactly right, it's a public safety issue. Plain and simple.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Your post suggest you have a sense of how this issue is viewed here.
Are the results of this pole so far consistent with your understanding of the over all view here?

Also do you think the overall view of the issue here is constant with the overall view of Dems on this issue?

If so, I think we are in for a bad defeat.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. I think California qualifies as a border state
Giving people a driver's license does not guarantee they will get insurance.

The test to get a license here does not provide much assurance that a person really knows how to drive safely.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. So making sure no one can get it if they are undocumented is the answer? nt
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. thecatburgler
Are the results of this pole so far consistent with your understanding of the overall view here?
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Looks like they're not.
But I think a lot of the people opposing licenses are operating from idealism rather than pragmatism. Obviously, this is going to be used against our candidates in the next year.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. I did not say they should be able to get some kind of driver's license
Nor have I ever said so.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #50
82. And do we really KNOW that undocumented drivers cause more accidents than citizens?
I am not convinced that we have the stats on that. We conjecture, yes, but I have not heard an outcry that "illegals are causing all our accidents!" by the general populace.

No, I think so many people are against it is because they truly believe that it is a givaway to illegals. I don't think enough study has gone into this, at least from my vantage point. I may be wrong and if anyone has studies to contradict me I would gladly read them.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. Is this supposed to be a response to something I wrote?
:shrug:
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. ooops, I may have responded incorrectly! Sorry. n/t
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #24
52. I see a flaw in your logic
It's a public safety issue. I don't want to drive down the highway with someone who doesn't know the rules of the road.

A driver's license does provide some assurance that the person holding it knows the rules of the road.

However, making licenses available to a particular class of people does not ensure that members of that class who do not know the rules will either learn them or stop driving.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #52
83. They have to learn them to get the license
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Yes, and...
...Availability of licenses doesn't ensure that anyone will do that, and

Some people who don't have licenses do know the rules and drive just fine.

I find the argument that making licenses available will make the roads safer to be questionable.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. And refusing to let them get licenses is a better idea?
:shrug:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. One more time with feeling...
I have never said that they should not get driver's licenses.

I have always said that any driver's licenses they get must be readily distinguishable from driver's licenses issued to lawful residents.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
62. Thank you
I also work with the immigrant community. You bet they want to have licenses and insurance. The bottom line is they are here and they aren't leaving anytime soon. I also don't like the idea of unsafe and uninsured drivers on the roads. I was hit by an uninsured and undocumented immigrant and it was a pain in the ass getting my car fixed.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Do you think allowing them licenses will encourage, discourage
or have no effect on illegal immigration? I think it will encourage more; thus, increasing the types of collision you experienced.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. They don't come here to get drivers licenses
The only way to discourage or encourage immigration is through the job market.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. That may be a good way, but I doubt it's the "only way."
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
33. politically, no ... common sense wise, yes
It's one of those issues that there's nothing to be gained by supporting it.

The people who benefit from it can't vote.

The people who like the idea are few and far between.

the people who absolutely hate the idea DO vote.

will it decide an election? It better not.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. What do you mean by "It better not"?
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
37. I'm for it
It's a safety issue.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #37
51. Giving someone a license doesn't make them a safer driver
Nor does it guarantee they will get insurance.

:eyes:
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
39. if the climate collapses, borders will be meaningless. let's
try to look at this from here in the real world, instead of spinville. wake the f' up people.
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surfermaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
40. I see lots of wrecks in Charlotte,
Many caused by people going the wrong way, many time they are Latinos
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Do you think this is going to get better or worse under a Republican
president? Given what the last Dem debate indicated, I think it can only get worse if we win. I could be wrong, but it appears that the Republicans are slightly more likely to fix our border and then address the ones that are here. I see little hope of this occurring with any of the Dems ruining. A dem candidate (other than HC) that moves to the right of the republicans on this could capture Republican votes with this issue.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-03-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. I'm not interested in capturing the votes
of people who would rather this was 1945 than 2007.

Where this world is headed, conservatives are risking being left behind in the dust of globalization, not just of business and profit taking but of humankind.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
48. Not enough choices, so I voted Against - explanation follows
Edited on Sun Nov-04-07 10:32 AM by slackmaster
I do not approve of giving people who are not legal residents of my state any form of ID that is indistinguishable from those issued to legal residents.

The California Driver's License (or DMV-issued ID for non-drivers) is the only acceptable form of identification that can be used here to establish residency for the purpose of buying a firearm, and for applying for many kinds of government benefits like AFDC, subsidized housing, food stamps, registering to vote, etc. I don't support allowing people who are not legal residents to take advantage of any of those benefits, or to buy guns.

The gun issue makes this a matter of public safety.

A license that is clearly labelled to indicate the person is not here legally would be a different matter.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. Sorry I did not have a better choice for you.
Can you envision any illegal alien ever seeking a license that clearly labels them as being an illegal alien?

What do you think this issue will do to our chances of prevailing?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. If the stigma would prevent someone from applying, I say tough shit
I don't want illegal aliens being able to buy guns in my state.

I don't want them registering to vote, or applying for public assistance either.

What do you think this issue will do to our chances of prevailing?

Supporting giving licenses to illegal aliens didn't help former CA governor Gray Davis, or the then-Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. I hope the Dems running now take a look at what happened in
the CA election.

I do not want illegal aliens being able to buy guns, vote, or apply for public assistance in ANY state. I suspect even most Dems would agree with me on the guns and voting points.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. My state, Arizona, changed the ID requirements for voter registration
It was a voter approved initiative that succeeded by raising the specter of thousands of 'illeguls committing voter fraud!!1!' The thing is, it made the driver's license the gold standard for registering and voting. If you have an Arizona license issued after 1996 with your correct address on it, you can vote. So the irony is they actually made it easier for at least some undocumented residents to vote.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #64
86. Our New Haven city resident ID card cannot be used to register to vote.
However, it does allow city residents an ID accepted by banks for opening accounts, public libraries for library cards and has a few benefits re parking. It was begun because of the crime associated with the cash economy of poor residents not allowing them deposit their cash in a bank account.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. That's a good idea.
I don't know what the best solution would be for IDing voter registrations. I know we have to verify eligibility but many of the requirements place an undue burden on poor, disabled, elderly, and indigenous populations. Most so-called "anti-vote fraud" measures are designed to disenfranchise Democratic voters.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. Adequate voting machines that work, vigorous enforcement of laws
protecting the right to vote for all, these are measures that can and should be taken to ensure that everyone has a fair chance to cast their ballot. We have a strong, liberal Dem party locally. If any bad stuff went on at the polling places in our predominately poor and minority communities, our liberal mayor would be all over it.

Oh, and the RWingers were out leafletting and demonstrating in front of city hall when the ID thing was getting underway. Everybody ignored them. Turned out they weren't even FROM New Haven and their little group was formed out of former John Birch cell.

Hell, we're so liberal here that a very conservative section of our city at one time threatened to SECEDE from New Haven. That went nowhere!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
59. I want them to have insurance
and the insurance companies won't sell them policies unless they are licensed drivers.

So yes, I support giving them drivers licenses.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
66. I am surprised by these results. Are they
a fair representation of the view here?

Of the overall view of our party?
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
67. I guarantee the proportions would be reversed,
and people would be calling Clinton a right-wing panderer, had she strongly come out against the idea.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. So you do not think these numbers are a fair
indication of the real view of the issue here?
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Well, I think they are, sort of.
I also think that for any given issue (other than the universally-agreed-upon fundamentals like Iraq, taxes, and social security), only about half the people here bother finding and holding a strong position. The rest have reflexive positions, in which they decide they want whatever (Lieberman/Bush/Hillary) don't.

Personally, I think that you're absolutely deluded if you think that not giving illegals licenses will keep them from (driving/coming to America).
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. I agree that not giving illegals licenses will not keep them
from coming to the US. But I also think more illegals will make they're way here if they think states like NY are going to be so receptive to them.

I am not certain what it will take to fix our significant border problem, but I tending to think none of our Dem candidates will fix it.

I think more voters will view the republicans as more slightly more likely to fix the problem and that will cost us this election.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #70
97. I think dems will fix it, but first they have to get ELECTED!
ANd that is why I voted no on this poll altho it doesn't accurately reflect my full opinion.

Once we're in power there's a lot that can be done from the bully pulpit of the WH. I'd be willing to bet that any of our candidates would make a real effort to fix the problem. If we have a Dem Congress, all the better. But we can't get hung up on the issue in the campaign cuz it'll be a loser for us...
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maximusveritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #67
92. I agree with you. Kinda sad reflection on this community n/t
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
94. It's up to the state
Let ICE enforce the immigration laws. I am sick of all these secondary attempts to enforce one law with others. If we can't enforce what we have, change it to register the immigrants.

I'm not real excited about their immigrating illegally. I'd rather have someone who has been in the U.S. illegally for ten years than someone who has never been to the U.S. That's ten years of assimilation.

The laws we have are stupid, we have never enforced them, and now suddenly we're picky about them? Not buying it.

Immigrants only expand our economy; anyone who has a basic concept of how the economy works can understand that. The economy expands and prospers when people work in it and then consume in it. It is not a zero sum game where there are exactly the number of jobs as there are citizens who can and will do them at every given moment.

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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #94
96. Do you think this issue will hurt us?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-04-07 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
95. Would the driving license be like an occupational license?
There are time-limited occupational licenses for people who can only drive to and from work and perhaps for groceries and other chores. I would think that since illegal aliens will drive to jobs whether or not you want them, this could be a good solution to track them.

For someone who would also have to take and pass driving classes and then have an occupational license for certain hours of the day and to not exceed 30 hours a week could be a reasonable type of license in my view.

Yes, it's easy to grandstand and say that illegal aliens shouldn't have anything, but the reality is that most will drive to their jobs anyway.


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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
98. kick
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
99. kick
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
100. kick
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
101. The notion of issuing driver's licenses to illegal aliens -
and that's what they are, forget the "undocumented immigrants" glossing over - is ludicrous. The people are already breaking the law by being here. When they turn up looking for a license they should be arrested if anything. This is going to kill the Democratic chances in the election if our candidates insist on this foolish scheme.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #101
102. I agree that it will kill our chances.
Biden is against such licenses.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #101
104. do you think all "illegal aliens" should be deported -- every last one of them?
Because that seems to be the logical conclusion that follows your assertion that any illegal alien that shows up looking for a license should be arrested. Why should it be limited to when they show up looking for a license. Or do you advocate a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for illegals?
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. If someone turns up to apply for a license and they're an illegal alien,
they've already broken the law. Technically, they should be arrested, but of course that's an impossibility because there are so many of them. Why on earth is it a good idea to reward people for breaking the law? Adding insult to injury is the fact other people trying to immigrate legally have been waiting as long as 20 years to get in. Sharing a common border doesn't make Mexico a state. We're shipping jobs over the border as fast as American corporations can fire American workers. Is there a point where citizens of this country will come first? How many good paying manufacturing jobs need to be exported and how many low paid workers need to be imported before someone makes the connection between wages and the inability to pay for healthcare, housing, education, food and fuel. But don't get me started . . .
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. so, again, do you favor a "don't ask, don't tell" policy?
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 08:57 AM by onenote
You seem to acknowledge that its impractical to round up every illegal alien and ship them home. But you'd ship them out if they asked for a drivers license. What other actions would have the same outcome? Seeking medical care at the emergency room of a public hospital? Showing up for teacher/parent night at school (for a child born in the US?) Paying property taxes?

For the record, I don't have a good answer to the drivers license issue (or to issues surrounding immigration generally). I do recognize that its a lot more complex issue than some people want to recognize.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. If I had the solution I wouldn't be a struggling, self-employed person
without healthcare. All I know is jobs that used to provide a good living for the average American worker are going, going, gone and when those same Americans gravitate toward service industry or trade jobs, the wages have been lowered because of cheap labor from illegal immigration. I'm certainly not in favor of rounding everyone up and throwing them in jail. I am in favor of making life uncomfortable enough for them so they'll migrate back home. That would include penalizing employers and requiring proof of citizenship for government benefits. American companies are building factories across the border that should allow for a halfway decent standard of living for these people if any of our trade agreements are to be believed. Even the damn Hershey chocolate factory is closing down and going to Mexico.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. The more important thing to address is stooping the number of
Edited on Thu Nov-08-07 06:52 PM by conservdem
illegal aliens from growing. IMO, that's were our party should focus.
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-08-07 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
103. kick
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