Our Candidates Only Helped the G.O.P. in Last Night's Debate.

[David Zephyr]

Last night's televised "debate" was not a good night for any of our candidates, except perhaps for Senator Joe Biden and Governor Bill Richardson, who both managed to walk away from the event with some class and dignity. I don't know what was worse to watch:

1.) Was it NBC's ultimate suck-up, Tim Russert, finally relaxing his bowels, long ago filled with bile and hatred for Hillary Clinton, and spraying his messiness in public for all the world to see? Move over Dick Morris, there's someone who has a bigger problem with Hillary than you...and that's saying a lot.

2.) Was it watching John Edwards redefine self-righteousness by attacking Hillary for her taking money from lobbyists while forgetting to mention the millions he has raised from trial lawyers and the money he has made from hedge funds? Or was it John's attacking Hillary over her IWR vote when he did the very same thing? Or was it just John's repeating himself over and over like a broken record in attacking Hillary?

3.) Was it Dennis Kucinich, who had a great night and who needs to be taken seriously, who then then pissed it all away in a nanosecond talking about UFO's a little too seriously?

4.) Was it Barack Obama, who joined in with Edwards like two school boy bullies, and in doing so allowed himself to be transformed from the ever-positive Barack we love into New York's very own Rick Lazio who went overboard in attacking Hillary in 2000 sinking his shot at the Senate. Obama sullied himself needlessly when his greatest asset is his winning and optimistic, above-the-fray persona.

5.) Was it Hillary, America's world-class political champion at doing her homework, who wasn't prepared for the question about the Governor of New York's plan for issuing drivers licenses to undocumented workers? Why Hillary didn't take the opportunity to inform the public that Bush's Director of the Homeland Defense Department helped devise the plan was a missed opportunity.

Sitting in my hotel room here in lovely Cambridge, Massachusetts (where I am vacationing, so eat your hearts out), I felt like it was Bill Richardson, who spoke what many impartial debate watchers felt: that the debate had turned into a near personal attack by all against Hillary. I was reminded of Fyodor Dostoevsky's line from "The Brothers Karamazov" where one questioned sarcastically: if with so much pride in the room, was there still a place for his humility to abide?

The technical winner last night from my old eyes was clearly Joe Biden. I don't know if he had just walked in from swigging down a double shot at Starbucks, but Biden's responses were strikingly clear, rational, informative and persuasive. Joe Biden surprised the hell out of me last night.

But sadly, the real winner last night was the Republicans because we lost focus on George W. Bush. The American people don't want to watch politicians bickering with each other. They are sick of it. Americans have figured out that just about everything is wrong these days and that Bush is to blame for most of it.

I imagine that George W. Bush was on the phone with Karl Rove with popcorn having a ball last night. And that's not a good thing.

Come on, Democrats. Show leadership. Tell us what you are for and where you will lead. All of our candidates are superior to any of the G.O.P. candidates. Far superior.

So let the superiority show.

Stop with the bickering already.

[David Dunham]

1. Good points. The Dems formed a circular firing squad last night.

Enough of that!!!

[emilyg]

16. The firing squad needs to be aimed at GOP

[PurityOfEssence]

19. That metaphor is waaaay beyond tiresome

Primaries are many things, but one of them is a practice for the big fight. I'd rather the sparring partner finds the chink in the armor in the gym than see the contender's opponent find it in the bout.

The idea expressed elsewhere that Senator Clinton is above this kind of attacking doesn't hold a dram of water: she repeatedly says that she's the best at confronting the Republicans, citing no proof, since there isn't any. Each of those is a flat dismissal and insult to the others as inherently inferior. Certainly she's the last one with any karmic right to complain about being hit hard, since she's painted herself as the one who can take a punch the best; it's literally how she's defined herself, so bellyaching about it now is pathetic.

She's not above the fray by any means, she's just way out in front and can do the traditional thing of merely brushing the others off and not attacking them.

She's shown quite well how brutal she can be in the attack, as she did against Obama a while back.

Elections are about two things: conjuring a vision of what things would be like if you are in charge and going after your opponent. Sadly, the latter works MUCH better, and they're ALL doing it. The Republicans are doing it too, that's what it's all about.

In primaries, your opponents are members of your own party. There should be limits, of course, and they're subjective and open to personal taste, but this is an election being fought here. To say that any criticism of a fellow Democrat is some kind of suicidal nincompoopery like the oh-so-precious metaphor of the circular firing squad is either an attempt to quell dissent or pollyannaish cries of fragile dismay. It's crap. If it offends one's delicate sensibilities, one should avoid watching.

That's what these things are, and that's what they should be. Nobody gets to determine the rules of what's "fair" or "unfair" from within, as Senator Clinton thinks she has the right to. The people who determine these rules are us. We, the voters, get to: if we don't like the approach, we don't vote for the person.

Remember this above all else: the decrying of attacking members of one's own party comes chiefly from the idiotic and unfounded fear that we'd find some weakness the Republicans either can't or won't. That's bilge water; they're REALLY GOOD at finding weak spots. If there's a vulnerability, they're going to find it. Detecting it first and choosing a candidate accordingly was one of the great strengths of a long primary season. With a shortened one, we have less time to find the weaknesses, and the enemy will have effectively nine months to hammer the nominee with them. (This is based on the assumption that the nominee-presumptive will be known on February 5th, but that's a pretty damned good bet with this truly bone-headed schedule.)

We're going to be going against Republicans who are on the wane: cornered, scared, bitter and mean; the last thing we need to be practicing is "nice".

[David Zephyr]

28. Rightly or wrongly, the public does decide what's fair and what's unfair

Any impartial viewing of the debate last night, anyone without a horse in the race would have seen the obsession with Hillary last night. It was overboard and will backfire against those that participated in it.

What did we witness? A stage filled with men and two male debate moderators grilling the only woman there over and over. Like it or not, it looked terrible.

You write: "Nobody gets to determine the rules of what's 'fair' or 'unfair,'" but the public does make those determinations.

When your candidate, John Edwards, makes his point once, he needs to understand that he made the point. Repeating it over and over and over makes him look shrill.

Hillary's vote for the Lieberman & Kyle Resolution against Iran was a very bad choice and will hurt her with many voters. I posted against her about it. John was correct to point it out, but he did it without grace and without measure. Joe Biden, the last person I'd expect a measured response from when it comes to speaking, criticized Hillary on the K/L Resolution and did so masterfully without making it personal.

[PurityOfEssence]

41. Uh, David...I'm in agreement on that point; didn't you read it?

Pompous as it is, I'll quote myself:

"Nobody gets to determine the rules of what's 'fair' or 'unfair' from within, as Senator Clinton thinks she has the right to. The people who determine these rules are us. We, the voters, get to: if we don't like the approach, we don't vote for the person."

That's saying PRECISELY what you say it isn't. That "from within" is crucial and is the heart of the statement: she seems to think she can call the shots and name the game, when NOBODY within the contest gets to do that, that's for us, the audience and voters to determine. Come on, what's the deal? If you just continue on quoting the same sentence, it's obvious; the next sentence just drives the point home for the sake of rereredundancy.

Hey, at least use our friend Mr. Ellipsis; those "..."s at least give a hint to the reader that the citation isn't in its entirety.

Your point about Edwards is quite fair, though: he's not up to the performances he gave in the last primary season, but nobody's that solid at the moment either. Going for the carotid isn't his forte, so he's a bit out of his element...

Sure, it looks like ganging up if that's what one wants to see, but if one is long-baffled by her getting away with this endless game of dodge-ball, it looks like an Empress' New Clothes moment where everyone's saying the same thing and the old game no longer works. It's not quite as good as Welch working over McCarthy, but it'll do for the moment. (No, I'm not comparing Clinton to McCarthy; she's trouble, but he was a monster.) If one feels she's put-upon, one can be outraged by this, but if one is exasperated by the calculated, cynical avoidance, seeing her caught in the searchlights looks like a moment of truth more than a moment of bullying.

Were you reading quickly or something?

I'm afraid that you're due a perfunctory "harrumph". So there: harrumph.

Extreme contrition isn't necessary, but a mild mea culpa would brighten my day...

Helluva show, huh?

[David Zephyr]

45. A robust mea culpa for you.

Hell, I just got back to my hotel tonight after watching "An Inconvenient Truth" with old family friends at their home here in Cambridge and seeing the second time, after its first release at the Arclight on Sunset & Vine, I'm just struck with what the world was robbed of back in 2000.

A mild mea culpa? Never! For you, only a robust mea culpa. Peace.

[jmp]

29. Poor Hillary

Poor poor Hillary.

:sarcasm:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. I'd say you're doing a pretty damn good job of helping the GOP yourself.

[angstlessk]

4. Dosen't he always? n/t

[TwilightGardener]

3. You're absolutely right. I think the next debate should involve the candidates

trying to one-up each other on how much they love and support Hillary--boy, the fur will fly! But it will be fair, and a real service to the American people.

[Faygo Kid]

6. Yes, why should candidates disagree? How American is that?

How dare the candidates disagree with one another, and put forth competing visions of where our nation should go.

Geez, that's never happened in American political history.

[TwilightGardener]

13. Disagreeing, calling each other out on inconsistencies, challenging each other--

all unacceptable. Everyone knows Republicans will treat our nominee with kid-gloves--why rough him or her up now?

[JDPriestly]

5. Posted in error. Sorry.

[rwheeler31]

7. Oh give it up, we are so sick of this crap. We want Dems. who

will fight for the Americans that matter the middle class and the poor.

[CyberPieHole]

8. Kick and recommend n/t

[CyberPieHole]

9. I agree with you on most of your points...specially about Biden...

but I felt that Hillary fared well...she was still standing after an onslaught from Obama and Edwards, instead of telling us what they would do, they told us why Hillary was wrong. I can watch Fauxnews if I want attacks like that. Biden was, indeed, brilliant. He really moved me, specially when one considers the short amount of time he was given to make his point(s).

[David Zephyr]

10. All of our candidates are superstars. They need to stay positive.

I think Joe must have had his Wheaties in the morning. But all of our team, and they are our team, are light years over the other crowd. I just wish they felt more confident about showcasing their differences in a more positive way. Light the candle, don't curse the darkness. We all know it's dark. Thanks for your kind words.

[CyberPieHole]

14. I feel the same way about our candidates...

It's very easy to go out and get lots of trash from the right on anyone who dares upset their apple cart. It's important that our candidates tell us what THEY can do, not just prove that they are good at slinging mud. Nice chatting with you too.:hi:

[David Zephyr]

15. Great photo! That's my team. All of them!

I don't want my family fightin'.

[elizm]

24. They should all stay positive...like Hillary??

:eyes:

[polichick]

11. This is primary season, not the GE...

It's all about distinguishing one Dem from another ~ they did that last night.

[Sukie1941]

12. The good thing is that most of America isn't watching the debates

We have a long way to go, and I think most voters have already decided who to vote for, starting with the party, then the candidate, and are too busy thinking about everyday living.

[superkia]

25. The sad part is that most that are worried about everyday living...

which is probably the majority of Americans, only look to their televisions for their political input when they have the time. So in other words, the media will continue to choose our candidates for us and they will win. Not enough people really have the time or even think that they matter enough to look into who is running and what they are truly about. So whoever gets the most free national advertisement is most likely our choice. The only way we could beat the media is the ones that do spend times on boards like these, could actually have the brain power to put the medias influence aside and help promote the candidate for the people, not the corporations. From what I see around here, too many people are not able to get past the medias brainwashing, So sad!

I fear that if we get this one wrong, its game over for the people and a new beginning for the corporations, the wealthy and ones in power, which are the same people. Things have been getting so bad in our country and if we show them that we still fall for the same shit, they will be off and running like the pace that Bush and company have been going.

[jillan]

17. Thank for your comments about Biden. He even surprised me- especially with his comments about

Iran v Pakistan -

[Froward69]

18. I got taken with Bidens statement

"I am not just running for President. I am running for leader of the free world." The gop see it as a throne... and none of them can hold a candle to Joe in regards to having the ability to be the leader of the free world.

[incapsulated]

20. This happens in every primary

Yes, even during the GOP primaries.

They are fighting for the nomination with other democrats. So they will attack their opponents.

People always say they don't like negative campaigns and everyone should be positive but the voting doesn't lie, they can and are swayed by negativity.

Really, when you are trailing you have to go on the offensive and take down the leader a bit or you will never catch up. But you have to do it in a smart way and not look like you do nothing but bitch and snipe, either, and make people start to feel sorry for the very person you are trying to slow down. And unfortunately, they will use nearly any ammunition against each other, even stuff that is great opposition research for the GOP to use against the eventual nominee.

I wish there was a better way to do this but I'm not ready to throw it out and go back to smoky back rooms making the decisions, either.

[jgraz]

21. Huh? The GE is more than a year away.

I didn't think that the so-called "bickering" hurt anyone but Hillary. She tried her standard "say nothing" approach and she got burned. Biden and Dodd came off great, Edwards and Kucinch did well and Obama and especially Richardson seemed to falter a bit.

The main point, though, is nobody made a quotable, usable gaffe besides Hillary. This debate will only hurt us if she's running next year.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gateley]

23. K&R! nt

[cleveramerican]

26. you are so wrong

sparks flying/ bitter disagreements/ personal rivalries taking shape all with the glare of the TV camera is EXACTLY what most viewers want.

We've heard all the poll-tested sound bites/nuanced positions released by the campaigns.


Its game day
We want to see the head to head match up
We want to see who shows up with their cleats on.
And who will have a long list of excuses for a poor showing.


If you want to attract attention, you've got to make some sparks fly.

[BeyondGeography]

27. Comparing Obama with Lazio is completely inane

Most informed observers wonder why Obama uses such a light touch with Hillary, Tuesday night's debate included. Nowhere will you find him equated with Lazio the Space Invader who tried to bully Clinton into signing a "no negative campaigning" form during a debate.

Pointing out substantive differences isn't bullying, it's campaigning.

[AtomicKitten]

30. The primary is in progress and the candidate has yet to be chosen.

Enough sniveling. This isn't a pillow fight.

It's time the Democrats pull up their socks and ask the hard questions now in the primary.

[polichick]

31. This is a Democratic primary, not a coronation...

And it's an especially important time for the party ~ a redefining of sorts that has to play out.

[More Than A Feeling]

32. It hurts your credibility to try to position yourself above the fray

while repeating Hillary talking points concerning Edwards and Obama, and minimizing her screw-ups and general loss of cool as best you can

[David Zephyr]

33. Check the archives, check "heaven and earth", I hit Hillary harder than most anyone here.

Perhaps you missed my "Hillary get out your prayer rug" thread recently. I hardly minimize her "screw-ups" as you call them. Still, no hard feeling here.

[More Than A Feeling]

34. Then you should probably be aware that "two school boy bullies"

blaming the media are vintage Hillary talking points, and using them does give people the wrong idea about you. See this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3671455&mesg_id=3671455

[rinsd]

35. Yeah because only a Hillary support could find fault with Russert & Williams moderating performance?

Only a Hillary supporter would find fault with the cable news breathless hyping of this debate as some sort of Rumble in the Jungle.

:eyes:

"and using them does give people the wrong idea about you"

Yeah some people may mistake him from a Democrat...perish the thought!

[More Than A Feeling]

36. Hillary supporters have the most incentive. She lost.

Who wants to be associated with hyperventilating, faux-outraged Hillary apologists frantic to cover up that inconvenient fact?

[rinsd]

37. Yes and by next week DU will have moved on.

"Who wants to be associated with hyperventilating, faux-outraged Hillary apologists frantic to cover up that inconvenient fact"

As opposed to the hyperventilating Hillary haters who think a debate on MSNBC is the death knell of her campaign? Who are so rabid they accuse anyone straying from the bash Hillary all the time line as Hillary supporters?

[More Than A Feeling]

38. I pointed you directly to the article outlining Hillary's counter-strategy.

It makes sense that people who would buy those talking points and repeat them are more likely to be Hillary supporters. When you guys panic so badly, it looks like you all think it IS the death knell of her campaign.

People getting distracted by your overblown rhetoric or other events is indeed your best hope.

[rinsd]

42. Who is panicing?

Hillary supporters here have put up with daily bullshit and the occasional flare up full on assault.

I guess you don't like it when people hit back.

"It makes sense that people who would buy those talking points and repeat them are more likely to be Hillary supporters"

You think Russert & Williams debate performance is a talking point vs an obvious observation?

And omg I needed a talking point to tell me that that framing this as 6 men ganging up on Hillary works. I mean as a Hillary supporter I only saw her work that trick against Lazio and use the fear of it to cause Edwards to use his wife for most attack on Clinton up to this point.

It really is funny that you think Hillary supporters here work from some script or talking points.

Must be why we're still here and still kicking ass after a nearly a year of daily insults to both our candidate and ourselves.

[Lord Helmet]

39. oh please, let them debate without mommy wringing her hands at the sidelines

[beaconess]

40. Wow - you really NAILED it!

[Think82]

43. Biden wins every debate. It should not surprise anyone when he cleans everyones clock

in 6 MINUTES!

Biden 08! No BS

[Joe Chi Minh]

44. The Republicans are beyond help, direct or indirect.

[JCMach1]

46. No, Russert did... no more debates with this guy as mod!!!

He is toxic.

[murbley40]

47. K&R

[zulchzulu]

48. I hope I get tickets to the Dynasty Coronation!

No need to discuss the differences with the issues. Let's all get dolled up for the Coronation and shut our pieholes in the meantime...

:puke: