Blaming Nader for 2000 is like...

[rucky]

Poll question: Blaming Nader for 2000 is like...

Not just one person blaming him, of course.

[Bluebear]

1. None of the above.

[rucky]

2. Sorry, I only have 5 slots. n/t

[Rhythm and Blue]

22. It would be interesting to see what the results of this poll would be if

you had made it along the lines of:

Is Nader at all responsible for Bush being President?
Yes:
No:

[Sparkly]

3. I'm going with none of the above, too. nt

[LoZoccolo]

4. I'll say "none of the above" as well. n/t

[zalinda]

6. None of the above. n/t

[Rageneau]

17. Blaming Nadar for 2000 is like blaming Bush for Iraq.

IOW, there is a very direct cause-and-effect relationship.

No Nadar candidacy, no Bush in the White House.

Like it or not, dem's de fax.

[JackRiddler]

19. Nadar, for sure, that radar-like bastard. But not Nader. n/t

[pscot]

32. none of the above

How about, "like blaming George Bush for the debacle in Iraq".

[skipos]

5. I blame Nader for the Gore=Bush lie. nt

[rucky]

9. Believe me, I'm no fan.

but i know to give credit where credit is due (scotus).

[progpen]

7. Nader bashing is almost as popular as Hillary bashing.

And about as productive. Personally, I believe we desperately need stronger third parties.

[JackRiddler]

20. Get real.

Nader-bashing is tied for longest-running canard on Democratic Underground, since its founding in 2001. Hillary critique only arrived recently, and the earliest cases date back to October 2002, for some unfathomable reason.

[incapsulated]

8. Blaming the dog for....

Shitting on the rug.

[Sparkly]

12. lol!!

:rofl:

[Rhythm and Blue]

24. Perfect, sir. nt

[incapsulated]

25. M'am

But thanks. :P

[Rhythm and Blue]

26. Accept my profoundest apologies, sir.

[incapsulated]

28. lol n/t

[cali]

10. none of the above

Nader is partly to blame.

[applegrove]

35. Yup!

[depakid]

11. If Clinton and the DLC hadn't enabled and legitimized far right policies

Nader would never have had a constituency in the first place.

Poly Sci 101.

Abandon traditional Democratic values, and someone (or a movement or a party) will step in to fill the void. The process has happened all throughout history, and the examples of it are far too numerous to cite.

[wyldwolf]

14. what "far right policies?"

:shrug:

[depakid]

23. Oh, please

How many times have we been through this....

I think you know very well which ones I (and many others) have discussed over the years.

[wyldwolf]

39. ok. please... what far right policies?

[JackRiddler]

30. never mind the label, how about

- letting the first Bush regime go on its crimes, thus losing the opportunity to break up this racketeering organization and the GOP in the 1990s, even though the other side had no compunctions about attempting coups against Clinton

- NAFTA/GATT/WTO and "globalization" as corporate dominance

- welfare "reform"

- communications and terror laws that look like early versions of the PATRIOT Act

- failure to ask for Colin Powell's resignation the moment he became insubordinate during the failed attempt to change the rules on gays in the military

- the shift to Pentagon regional commands as foreign policy makers, in lieu of the State Dept., preceding the further shift under Bush

- starving and bombing Iraq, with Albright saying if 500,000 children died, well then the price is worth it

- an illegal war on Yugoslavia

- bombing a pill factory in Sudan

- enabling nine years of distraction (dating back to election 1992) of rw attacks on Clinton personally by never having the simple self-respect to utter the sentence, "My consenting sexual relations with other adults are none of your business," perhaps helping America grow the fuck up in the process - it would have really come in handy in 1998, in lieu of the sentence that served up the fodder for the impeachment (which was a lie, however minor, that never need have been told)

- participation in the cultural triviality offensive (V-chips as top issue, yeah)

- lame failed attempt to reform health care sets back the cause of single-payer universal (which is what people wanted then and now) by 15 years and counting

On the positive side:

- decent SC appointments - definitely

- survival, reelection, and further survival until Jan. 2001 - the main preoccupation of the admin for 8 years

- Feeling Your Pain, whatever it was

- um, you tell me, or let me guess:

*** Did not (as) actively pursue destruction of the Republic and the World, i.e., "better than Bush" ***

[wyldwolf]

40. ok

None of these qualify as "far right" until the term is defined to our mutual agreement. I'll just pick out a few...

- letting the first Bush regime go on its crimes, thus losing the opportunity to break up this racketeering organization and the GOP in the 1990s, even though the other side had no compunctions about attempting coups against Clinton

This is a "policy?" What crimes were the first Bush regime convicted of again?

- NAFTA/GATT/WTO and "globalization" as corporate dominance

How is this "far right?" Free trade policies have been a Democratic policy since FDR ran on it. Harry Truman started GATT.

- welfare "reform"

Welfare reform had been suggested by FDR, JFK, and RFK. Barack Obama supported Clinton's. Again, how is this "far right?"

- starving and bombing Iraq, with Albright saying if 500,000 children died, well then the price is worth it

Crass of her to say, but hardly "far right." Remember - Saddam had the ability to stop this at any time.

- an illegal war on Yugoslavia

Yeah. Thank God we went into Kosovo to stop genocide. How very "far right" of us. :eyes:

- lame failed attempt to reform health care sets back the cause of single-payer universal (which is what people wanted then and now) by 15 years and counting

This was "far right?"

- bombing a pill factory in Sudan

This was far right?

[JackRiddler]

50. Can't you read? My first words were "never mind the label" -

meaning I don't care if the policies are called "far-right" (unlike the poster who used that term, mistakenly in my view) and I do not apply that label - in my view, the policies are simply wrong. Many of them are "corporatist," the attack on the poor in the guise of "welfare reform" is in the spirit of the right wing, but it's more important that they are wrong. Is that clear? Thus, most of your post is a repetitive waste of time shaking a strawman.

The first Bush regime was convicted of no crimes, yes - thanks to the pardons Papa Bush issued to his gang on the final days, and in at in least equal measure thanks to Clinton's burial of those crimes, his administration's failure to open up investigations or make documents and materials available or even selectively leak stuff behind the scenes. Clinton served as Papa Bush's moral clean-up man, allowing the Bush gang to come back for another day. (The Democrats are preparing to play the same function, again under a Clinton in 2008 - letting U.S. history's worst criminals understand that crime pays - thus encouraging them to do even worse later. The call to "forget the past" and "move forward" from the day of the inauguration forward will come with Iraqis still being killed by U.S. ordnance.)

It's no surprise that Clinton today legitimates the Bush regimes by making such friendly, public appearances with this incomparable criminal - illustrating that you can squeal all you like about the difference, these men have already agreed on their commonalities.

Genocide is an apt description of what that Bush regime had done in Central America - along with involvement in the importation of drugs to the U.S. You, sir, for using the word to describe the conflict in Kosovo prior to the NATO bombing campaign, reveal yourself (as I remember from earlier posts) to be a victim of Big Lie propaganda. Sorry and shame on you for being so misinformed.

---

I probably won't reply again - but one more thing for the list.

On the positive side, I should have remembered:

- balancing the budget and accumulating a surplus - sound policy often associated falsely with the right.

[wyldwolf]

13. Joe Biden on Ralph Nader: "He cost us the election last time and his ego may cost us... this time."

[rucky]

18. honestly, i couldn't care less about Nader.

this was an interesting tidbit from that 2004 report, though:

I used to work really closely with Ralph Nader since I got to the Senate. I've been there since 1972," Biden continued, shrugging. "It is just kind of disappointing. I don't understand the rational. I know he cares about a lot of things but it is almost as if he faded from the scene and he wants to go out like comet."

[Kahuna]

15. giving the devil his due.

nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. It's like blaming Al Gore for endangered Chilean sea bass.

[Rhythm and Blue]

21. Blaming al-Qaeda for 9/11.

Sure, some cranks on the far left disagree, but it's obvious to everyone else.

[JackRiddler]

31. Wow - you don't fool around with the rhetoric, do you?

Rendition that terrorist Nadir, erm, Nadar into a hole today!

[progpen]

33. Uh, ya

sure.

[johan helge]

27. I've lost my patience with the third party crowd

If not for Nader, Bush would never have happened. Still, we see things like this shameless and stupid poll.

[progpen]

34. "I've lost my patience with the third party crowd"

Feeling's mutual.

[johan helge]

41. Then why are you here, at DEMOCRATIC underground?

Please go to a forum for Greens or whatever. If you are not going to join the fight against the Bushies, you can at least stop bothering us who fight.

[progpen]

43. Uh, huh.

Do you even realize how much you sound like the jack booted Repugs? Didn't think so.

[johan helge]

44. I don't know what you mean

- but why not go to a forum for Greens or whatever?

[progpen]

45. I'll get right on that.

Sieg Heil!

[pgh_dem]

48. Wait, wait....

Did someone start fighting the "Bushies" and not tell me?
Awesome!
Impeachment is on the table?
Immunity won't be granted to telecom companies for illegal spying?
Phase II of the investigation of the White House use/abuse of intelligence in pursuance of invading Iraq is underway?
Subpoenaed employees and ex-employees of the White House will actually be held in contempt of congress for not showing up?
WOOOHOOO! :woohoo:
This is great news!
This is like when we found out in Dec 2004 that Sen Kerry was 'working behind the scenes' to make sure every vote would count, and be counted!
Please don't ruin my day by telling me none of these things are true.
I'd hate to think this fight you're talking about was just metaphorical.

[johan helge]

49. The fight I'm talking about

is voting Democratic. There is no other way to beat the Bushies, than to build an alliance against them. That alliance is called the Democrats.

[Forkboy]

29. He's our Clenis.

[Dr. Strange]

46. Ralphallic Nader?

Ralph Nadick?

It's so hard to genitalize Ralph's name!

[Rowdyboy]

36. Blaming Nader for 2000 is like saying the sky is blue....Thats the way it is

In one egotistical move he negated a lifetime of work for the progressive cause and set us back-perhaps permanently-twenty five years.

You're welcome to your views. I despise the asshole. Thank God he's rendered himself completely irrelevant.

[PurityOfEssence]

37. Bush "won" Florida by 537 votes; Nader got 96,837

But it doesn't matter anyway; there's no difference between the two parties.

Blaming Nader for the 2000 election is like blaming mosquitoes for Yellow Fever or West Nile Virus.

So unfair.

[Didereaux]

54. Naderites don't do factual 'numbers'...just fantasy n/t

[rucky]

58. Fantasy is the "official" Florida vote count.

hence the "quotes", and hence more bullshit 2004 numbers from Ohio without Nader's help.

SCOTUS, Diebold. Zat fantasy?

[libodem]

38. like blaming him for

sticking his big ass into the elections and siphoning off the green party vote from the rest of the Democrats' and making us lose the election and causing 9/11, the worsening of global warming, the clearsky's pollution act, the Iraq war, all the dead soldiers, and larry craig's failure to get a blow job in that airport bathroom. I blame the bastard for every bad thing that's happened since 2000.

[mac56]

42. None of the above.

The correct answer is "...accurate, obvious, and overdue."

[LoZoccolo]

47. Kick!

Great anti-Nader thread! :thumbsup:

:kick:

[Spirochete]

51. Blaming Bill Buckner

for the Red Sox losing the 1986 World Series. He had a hand in it, but it was a team effort.

[Rhythm and Blue]

52. Sort of, but only if

Buckner announced beforehand that he'd let any ball hit to him close and late go through his legs (because he didn't think the pitcher was doing a good enough job, and wanted to apply pressure to get him to throw more strikeouts), the rest of the Red Sox begged Buckner beforehand not to let the ball go through his legs, and Buckner still decided to let the ball go through his legs--and then announced that he didn't see any difference between the Mets and Red Sox, so why did it really matter?

[Spirochete]

53. Good point

Buckner simply made a mistake - Nader purposely made his contribution to allowing George W Fuckstain to steal the election.

[mac56]

60. Brilliant.

:applause:

[mac56]

61. And if Buckner had taken money from Mookie Wilson

to let the ball go through his legs.

[QC]

55. ...blaming Typhoid Mary for typhoid. n/t

[ClarkJKent]

56. who I blame

I don't blame Nader. I blame the people that voted for him because they put their wishful thinking above REALITY. I also blame Gore for not having a spine when he really needed it. Of course, the people who actually stole the election deserve some of the blame. Not to mention, the people that don't give a shit about it and can't be bothered to learn.

[Dr Fate]

57. It's like blaming DLCers for their support of Joe Lieberman (I-3rd Party)

n/t

[Perky]

59. I don't blame Nader....I blame the idiots in Florida who voted for him.