Chris Matthews Admits Bush Administration Tried To Influence Harball's Content

[wyldwolf]

Chris Matthews had barely finished praising his colleagues at the 10th anniversary party for his “Hardball” show Thursday night in Washington, D.C. when his remarks turned political and pointed, even suggesting that the Bush administration had "finally been caught in their criminality."

In front of an audience that included such notables as Alan Greenspan, Rep. Patrick Kennedy and Sen. Ted Kennedy, Matthews began his remarks by declaring that he wanted to "make some news" and he certainly didn't disappoint. After praising the drafters of the First Amendment for allowing him to make a living, he outlined what he said was the fundamental difference between the Bush and Clinton administrations.

The Clinton camp, he said, never put pressure on his bosses to silence him.

“Not so this crowd,” he added, explaining that Bush White House officials -- especially those from Vice President Cheney's office -- called MSNBC brass to complain about the content of his show and attempted to influence its editorial content. "They will not silence me!" Matthews declared.

"They've finally been caught in their criminality," Matthews continued, although he did not specify the exact criminal behavior to which he referred. He then drew an obvious Bush-Nixon parallel by saying, “Spiro Agnew was not an American hero."

Matthews left the throng of Washington A-listers with a parting shot at Cheney: “God help us if we had Cheney during the Cuban missile crisis. We’d all be under a parking lot.”

http://www.examiner.com/blogs/Yeas_and_Nays/2007/10/4/Matthews-Bush-Admin-puts-pressure-on-my-bosses

[Lasher]

1. What, no more sunny nobility?

Did he say anything about how good Junior's crotch looks when he wears his pilot costume?

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. If you read his book, you'll understand. Matthews plays that game we all hate.

That face-licking, self-endearing, false praise to powerful scoundrels, in order to get the interview. He just doesn't understand how that "show" sends the wrong message to people who are watching in the audience.

I'm going to read Matthew's Book.

[Lasher]

46. I think I understand already, Backlash.

He says whatever he thinks will get him access, that next interview, and people to watch his show - pretty much like you said. He is also a few bricks shy of a load, as demonstrated by past remarks about which I just hinted.

I will worry about your welfare since you have bravely decided to risk defiling your mind by reading Matthews' book. Please let me know when you've finished it so I'll know you're OK.

Lasher

[The Backlash Cometh]

48. I'm going to read the book, to better understand the animal we're dealing with.

And to find its weaknesses. You see, I think what he proposes, that we apply political social ass-kissing to our personal lives, well, I think I live in a community were that is already being done. So, I want to see if I recognize the caricatures he's recommending us to be. because I already know what's going to happen.

Think of it this way, when your neighbors are in Nantucket, and there's a developmental foul-up and you lose $5,000 in special assessments because of something crooked the city and developer did, it's no big deal. That's nothing to them. But, in middle America, if the same chicanery exists, and you're pulling that kind of money out of your pocket to make up for some well-connected good ole boy's miscalculations on a development, well, you got a problem.

[Lasher]

59. Well good luck.

It is true that there is a degree of politics (in its broadest definition) in all aspects of interpersonal relationships. There's nothing wrong with that but there is if the behavior is exaggerated to the degree that I think Tweety recommends.

Maybe you will be inclined to bless us with a summary here as an OP.

[Alamom]

2. Thank you.........nm

[Tellurian]

6. Chris positing mea culpas publicly

searching for forgiveness. The Devil made me do it, wah!

He'll return to the same ole Repub attack dog, once Dems are in power.

On Oct 16, Frontline is running a documentary on Cheney called "Cheney's Law"..
should prove to be interesting. The Wizard behind the curtain.

[MADem]

13. Uh, Matthews was the guy who TOLD Wilson that Rove said his wife was fair game.

Tweety may be a twit, but he's not evil. He worked for one of the most moral Presidents in US history--Jimmy Carter.

He also worked for Ed Muskie and Tip O'Neill.

He's not a rightwinger, even though some here, because he's not sufficiently left-ish to suit them, like to paint him that way.

If not for Tweety, there would have been no Libby trial. Think about it.

[Maribelle]

19. However, we found this out through Mr. Wilson, not Matthews.

In "The Politics of Truth" Wilson revealed the conversation.

Matthews repeatedly ranted he was not going to talk about off-the record conversations.

Matthews is not too fussy whose lap he dances in. Playing games with the power brokers is his top priority.

[MADem]

23. No, that's not accurate at all. It's false. I heard Tweety say it ON THE AIR.

And it wasn't an "off the record" conversation. That's what fucked Rove--he didn't say OTR before he started talking to Tweety.

Let's go back to some news reports, that well PREDATE the publication of Politics of Truth. You'll see that what you just averred was FALSE:

6 Oct 2003: The White House
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031006-5.html

Q Second thing. Newsweek is reporting this week that Karl Rove told "Hardball" host Chris Matthews that Wilson's wife was, "fair game."

MR. McCLELLAN: I think there is a different response in that article, as well. But, look, the subject of this investigation --

Q Did he say that?

MR. McCLELLAN: Let's talk about this. The subject of this investigation is whether someone leaked classified information. That's what this is about. And there are some that are trying -- some that see this as a political opportunity to attack the White House, and so they're talking about all sorts of other issues. The issue here is a very serious matter, and it needs to be pursued to the fullest, and we want to get to the bottom of it. The President expects everyone in his administration to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. That is the tone he has set in his administration. That is the tone he has set here in Washington, D.C. And if someone leaked classified information, we want to know, and appropriate action should be taken against that person.

Q Okay, but did Karl Rove tell Chris Matthews --

MR. McCLELLAN: Again, no --

Q -- it was fair game?

MR. McCLELLAN: Now we're trying to talk about other issues. The subject of this investigation --

Q Why can't we talk about -- ...bullshit follows!

The book was published THE FOLLOWING YEAR, in 2004. From the book's website:

“ Matthews was blunt: ‘I just got off the phone with Karl Rove. He says and I quote, “Wilson’s wife is fair game.”’” But now the game has changed. With the CIA leak investigation focused squarely on Karl Rove, this first paragraph of Wilson’s book, originally published in 2004, reads today like a damning prediction of what was to come in the criminal investigation of the outing of a CIA operative—by the architect of the Bush administration and Republican domination of Congress and the courts.

http://www.politicsoftruth.com/


I'm a fan of something called the TRUTH. And Google is our friend. You don't have to like Matthews, but that does not give you the right to make stuff up about him, either.

[Maribelle]

34. On October 6th Newsweek was reporting. Aren't you at all curious about that date?

July 14, 2003: Novak publishes column revealing Plame's status.

July 16, 2003: In The Nation David Corn publishes "A White House Smear," explaining that the Intelligence Identities Protection Act may have been violated by leak.

July 20, 2003: NBC's Andrea Mitchell tells Wilson that "senior White House sources" had phoned her to stress "the real story here is not the sixteen words . . . but Wilson and his wife."

July 21, 2003: NBC's Chris Matthews tells Wilson: "I just got off the phone with Karl Rove. He says and I quote, 'Wilson's wife is fair game.' I will confirm that if asked."

* * *

[MADem]

39. You said that we found that out through Wilson, and that was false.

And when Matthews CALLED Wilson to warn him, he specifically said that he WOULD CONFIRM IF ASKED. You even quoted what he said in your cite above.

Your first post that said it was Wilson, in his book, who initially revealed what Matthews said just wasn't accurate.

Your most recent post suggests that Rove was calling a lot of people, not just Chris Matthews, in an effort to get his tale circulating.

I find this effort to paint Matthews as a complete villain just odd, and almost pointless. He's a conservative Democrat who has done good work for several important Americans in his life. He's a so-so political commentator--not a reporter, a commentator. That's not a crime.

This effort to paint him as a Great Sha'tan is a total waste of energy, IMO. There are bigger and more worthy targets.

[Maribelle]

42. Joe Wilson first named Karl Rove in the outting of his wife, not Matthews.

We did not find this out first from Matthews.

[MADem]

44. No, because we knew in 2003, and Wilson's book didn't come out until 2004.

Certainly he was getting the information from other souces as well. Andrea Mitchell probably told him where she got the scoop from, too. But you've got your facts backwards. Matthews was "confirming if asked" well before Wilson put pen to paper.

[Maribelle]

45. Wilson suggested it was Rove behind the leak before his book came out.

September 30, 2003

"
"I have reason to believe that it was the political office that at a minimum confirmed it and the political office was Karl Rove. It was a reporter who told me it was Karl Rove and that's as far as I want to go right now."

[MADem]

47. He suggested, he didn't state. But he was TOLD by many. And Matthews, if not first, was

close to first, and said he'd confirm if he was asked to.

Wilson didn't STATE until 2004, though Matthews stated sooner. Certainly Wilson suggested it sooner--he suggested it even earlier than your cite, in August (see the cite below).

And I still don't get why you're trying to paint Matthews as the bad guy here. He did Wilson a great favor--a great enough favor that Wilson headlines him on his website, and essentially credits him for being able to prove what he suspected.

And more than one reporter confirmed it. Several sources indicate that reporterS told Wilson. Tweety was one of the first, apparently.

See here, the Guardian, from 10/2003

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1053191,00.html

[Maribelle]

49. Can you show us where Matthews spoke publicly that he told Wilson?

Until you can do that, I stand behind my previous statement that it was Wilson that revealed the conversation he had with Matthews.

[MADem]

52. I saw it on tee vee. I saw Tweety saying that he said it.

And I have shown you cites where it's discussed.

It doesn't really matter who went FIRST, though. Though that seems somehow important to you, for reasons unfathomable.

The fact that Matthews told Wilson that he'd go ON THE RECORD for him--at the outset-- makes it quite plain that Matthews had Wilson's back.

And we know this is so, because it's in Wilson's book.

[Maribelle]

53. You need to reread your post that I first responded to.

No Libby trial without Matthews was a pipedream of yours, not mine.

[MADem]

54. Matthews was the ONLY reporter to go on the record. None of the others did, not till much later.

He was the ONE that said "I'll confirm it."

Had he not been willing to go to bat, who knows how others may have backed off, saying they misspoke?

Again, what's your particular beef with Tweety? Especially with regard to this matter? It makes no sense...

The Wilson family holds him in high regard.

[Tellurian]

56. Chris's problem is, he always want to be on the WINNING side..

what he lacks is PRINCIPLE. He weighs the facts of a prospective explosive situation by grabbing all the (free) advise from experts... PRO & CON...picks a side, and goes for it. (knowing beforehand he'll fall on the side of the eventual winner!)

That is called a : Mercenary Mentality... I know from personal experience. I've dealt with them enough.

Nothing gives me more satisfaction, then seeing those (I'm taking care of #1) people FAIL.

[MADem]

57. Sure he does. Who doesn't? He makes his LIVING by being able to get

"The Get"--that super interview with the hot politician of the hour.

What you are doing is criticizing him for being what he is. A media whore, who will schmooze, schmarm, wheel and deal to get that big GET... That's what they pay him to do, that's why people tune in to his program, to either cheer him on, or shake their fist at the screen. He incites EMOTION. That's good for advertising dollars. It's why Amy Whatserface from Democracy Now doesn't have a spot on a major cable--sensible, reasoned and measured just doesn't SELL. And it's all about the sales job.

He's not failing, though. He's on top of his game. So your wish has not been granted.

I keep telling people he has some redeeming qualities. Jimmy Carter, Ed Muskie, Tip O'Neill and the Peace Corps all thought so. He may not be a saint, but I doubt there are many anywhere who are pure enough to cast that first stone.

[Tellurian]

58. Jon Stewart gets it! So will many others..

The worm is turning and I'm afraid Matthews good points don't outweigh the bad.

Time for Chris to spend more time with his family... <waving hanky, shedding a tear...>

[MADem]

60. I doubt it will happen. He gets two hours a day on MSNBC, and they aren't going to slack him off.

He also gets a Sunday talker on the parent network that gets rerun on the CNBC affiliate.

He's not going anywhere, so just change the channel if you don't like him.

[Tellurian]

61. I seldom watch him.. only if he's interviewing a candidate or people I'm interested in..

Funny though, about Don Imus. I'll bet he thought he was an Institution too..

[MADem]

62. No, Imus knew he was fucked the minute the heat turned up. See, he opposed the war.

And General Electric wasn't happy about his calling Bush a War Criminal.

So that, on top of his unkind remarks, was the smooch of death.

Had he been a war supporter, he'd still be on the air, and Al Sharpton never would have been invited on any program to comment and get that ball rolling.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

3. Amazing Watching Cockroaches Like Matthews Suddenly Scurrying

What's the matter Chris, got an eye on Keith's ratings?

So, where were you these past 6 years, when you spent at least half your time defending and supporting these criminals?

[Canuckistanian]

4. Cockroaches always seek safe places

If their usual nest becomes toxic, they'll go where it seems safest.

I see this as good news, actually.

[MADem]

15. I invite your attention to post 13.

Tweety was busy telling Wilson what Rove was up to. But hey, whatever.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

5. So, How Long Has This Pressure Been Going On Chris?

I find it hard to believe that the administration hasn't been pushing content for the past 6 years. Nice of Mr. Matthews to finally notice it.

[Tellurian]

7. I think the Dems should keep it up after the takeover.

and reserve a private room for him at Bellevue.

[Maribelle]

11. A lapse from grace?

Not really. Matthews' sees the handwriting on the wall. After all these years of mocking Democrats, especially Hillary, with aplomb .. only pausing briefly to breath and wipe his chin.. he might now have to pay the piper.

Matthews is clearly on the Democrat's S list, trying to wiggle out of the brown sticky stuff he has happily paddled around in for years.

[urgk]

8. Wow. I'm finding it hard to be snarky.

I'd like to say something condescending and pithy about Chris Matthews, but I'm just sitting here blinking instead. This is huge. If it's not the first, it's the first I've heard from a current employee of a major news organization admitting that the White House has undue influence on the media.

[flordehinojos]

9. why now?

why this revelation now? why so far into the game? why did you keep quiet for so long Chris Matthews?
And, why did you kiss bush's butt for so long -- and you still do from time to time.

Is it that by revealing some coercion to your program from the bush white house you are trying to tell the world what a good boy you are? are you trying to get people to see that you can "see," so that they will hurry up to buy your book?

you really want to sell your book, don't you? you really want to position yourself out there like a first class batter of lies, or pitcher of truths, or is it the other way around: batting down the truths and megaphonously pitching out bush's lies?

well ... sorry to say, i think you have joined the colin powell hall of tarnished fame.

sad, isn't it? very, very sad.

[BlueStater]

10. Six years too late

Where you in 2003, Chris? Oh yeah, you were telling us how great the Chimp looked in his little flight suit.

[H2O Man]

12. This has been

discussed many times on the Plame Threads on DU. It's been in books by Joseph Wilson, and Corn & Isikoff. Those saying, "Where have you been, Chris?" simply haven't been paying close enough attention.

[Maribelle]

14. Matthews was not the source. That's the significant difference.

Today, Matthews squirms.

[H2O Man]

16. Sure he was.

If you read the first page of Wilson's book, for example, you would know he was the source.

[Maribelle]

20. Wilson revealed the conversation.

Matthews was playing games with Wilson.

[MADem]

24. No, he didn't. Wilson's book didn't come out until 2004. Matthews revealed that ON THE AIR in

2003.

[H2O Man]

26. You have no idea

what you are talking about. None.

[Maribelle]

29. I have no idea that Matthews was playing games?

Matthews deliberately promoted the lies against Wilson in an obvious attempt by the corrupt administration to obfuscate the real issues. He continually discussed Treason-gate and Wilson as though he was a disinterested journalists when he was part of the story himself. Matthews and his fuzzy logic ranted on and on over Wilson's lies totally disregarding the fact HE KNEW FIRSTHAND this corrupt administration had leaked national security information and put the lives of many dedicated operatives in danger. You cannot deny these true facts.

More games by Matthews:

• MATTHEWS implies Al Qaeda is 'trying to get people to vote Democrat for president.' He asks Democratic Senator Breaux: 'Doesn't it put your party in a terrible position of having al-Qaeda rooting for you?' (Hardball, 7/18/04)
  
  
• MATTHEWS accuses Democrats of "perhaps exploiting" the death and destruction in Iraq (Hardball, 11/1/05)
  
  
• MATTHEWS says Bush sometimes "glimmers" with "sunny nobility" (Hardball, 10/24/05)
  
  
• MATTHEWS suggests Bush may "belong on Mount Rushmore" (Hardball, 12/16/05)
  
  
• MATTHEWS argues that the U.S. went into Iraq "for altruistic purposes" (Chris Matthews Show, 9/25/05)
  
  
• MATTHEWS insists "everybody sort of likes the president, except for the real whack-jobs" (Hardball, 11/28/05)
  
  
• MATTHEWS recites GOP talking points during fight over Bush's judicial nominees, describes Democratic efforts as "just sort of pouting and bitching" (Hardball, 5/18/05)
  
  
• MATTHEWS levels baseless charge against Democratic efforts to complete intel probe as "disingenuous," "using crocodile tears" (Hardball, 11/1/05)
  
  
• MATTHEWS describes Supreme Court debate as division between strict constructionism versus the "loosey goosey" liberal approach (MSNBC, 10/3/05)
  
  
• MATTHEWS praises Bush for a "brilliant" speech, before it was delivered, while attacking Democratic critics as "carpers and complainers" (MSNBC, 11/30/05)
  
  
• MATTHEWS falsely attacks Democrats for accusing Alito of being "lenient on the mob" (Hardball, 10/31/05)
  
  
• MATTHEWS praises John Roberts' confirmation as "miraculously successful" (MSNBC, 9/29/05).
  

http://openlettertochrismatthews.blogspot.com/2006/01/115000-visitors-and-counting-chris.html

[H2O Man]

31. Right.

If you had an idea what you were talking about regarding Mr. Matthews and Joseph Wilson's conversation, you wouldn't attempt to distract the discussion by bringing up other unrelated topics. So, if you really do have a clue, why not get back to the topic at hand?

[Maribelle]

32. The topics were not unrealted. The topics showed Matthews playing games.

Sorry, I had not idea the concept would be over your head.

[H2O Man]

37. You said he

was playing games with Wilson. You have zero evidence to support something that goes against what Joseph Wilson has said about their conversation. You choose not to discuss the other information that is available, including from the Isikoff & Corn book, and the Libby trial. Instead, you are resorting to attempts to distract from the issue. You don't have a clue. Not a clue.

[Maribelle]

41. I said Matthews deliberately promoted the lies against Wilson. I said Matthews was playing games.

I never denied that on July 21, 2003 Matthews told Wilson: "I just got off the phone with Karl Rove. He says and I quote, 'Wilson's wife is fair game"'."

But we did not find out that Matthews said this from Matthews himself, originally.

On July 8th Matthews had suggested possible witnesses from the White House and included Libby, not yet knowing what Matthews was to learn and reveal to Wilson on July 21st. On July 10th a call was placed to Russert to complain about Matthews. Matthews still had not heard from Rove about Plame. On July 21 Rove called Matthews; right after this Matthews called Wilson.

Remember now that Novak's column appeared July 8th - - long before Rove's call to Matthews and before Matthews' call to Wilson.

By July 21st, Matthews might have made a calculated guess that Wilson knew the White House had made his wife "fair game", and made the call to Wilson to play both ends.

Joe Wilson first named Karl Rove in the outting of his wife in a public arena, not Matthews.

[H2O Man]

43. He deliberately

promoted the lies about Wilson? Fascinating how he did this, without speaking about them. I think we can settle this rather quickly, and I know that I run a very real risk of being embarassed by someone with your obvious knowledge of Mr. Matthews' actions and motivations. Gosh!

Why don't you tell me what you know about Mr. Matthews discussions with those investigating the Plame scandal? Pretty please? Even if you start way over my head, by telling me who his first meeting was with? Then what exactly took place that was part of that darned Mr. Matthews' plot to spread these vicious lies about Ambassador Wilson?

[Maribelle]

50. Instead of spinning yourself silly, you could quickly win this debate by simply ....

proving that Matthews talked publicly about his conversation with Wilson telling him Rove said his wife was fair game before Wilson talked publicly about it.

[H2O Man]

55. Ha!

You're a silly one. Not to be taken serious.

[UpInArms]

36. count me in as "real whack-job"

:hi:

MATTHEWS insists "everybody sort of likes the president, except for the real whack-jobs" (Hardball, 11/28/05)

[Me.]

21. We Also Know From The Scooter Trial

That the OVP was indeed applying pressure. Matalin's infamous quote was something along the lines of Russert hates Matthews.

[MADem]

25. There would have been no Scooter trial had not Matthews told Wilson what Rove said. NT

[H2O Man]

27. Correct.

One of the things that our wonderfully insightful "experts" here do not realize is that Mr. Matthews works for MSNBC, and that when these events were taking place, the MSNBC management takes the advice of their attorneys on how MSNBC -- including its employees -- will deal with issues involving the case. It is true that Mr. Matthews could have ignored these guidelines, spoken out, and been fired. Surely this is the exact level of bravery that we could expect from our "experts" here -- they set the bar far too high for poor Chris.

[Botany]

17. And did the White House make you M.C. the Jack Abramoff fund raisers?

You know the "charity" that helped out Jack more than anything else.

[MADem]

30. Eleanor Holmes Norton was at that shindig, too, though.

Tony SNOW and Britt Hume MC'd as well. I don't know if you can call it collusion or simply being duped by a guy who appeared to be a mover/shaker.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

broad selection of A-List DC celebs were involved
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.php?user=katsiva&comment=113635339334690191


Here is a blurb about the event from DC Social Calendar (via GOOGLE's cache):

MARCH 26
CAPITAL ATHLETIC FOUNDATION GALA SPY GAME
You have been selected for a top secret Washington, D.C. Mission. Please join Daniel M. Snyder, Dinner Chair, and Tony Snow, Master of Ceremonies, in presenting The Capital Athletic Foundation's "Interactive Spy Game" in honor of James V. Kimsey, Founding Chairman of America Online. The Interactive Spy Game, created by the writer of the Lord of the Rings video game where one victorious team will win up to $50,000 in prizes, begins promptly at 7PM, at The International Spy Museum, 800 F Street, NW. Washington, DC Game Registration/Reception at 6pm. Come dressed to kill! (Black tie) Valet Parking Proceeds will benefit the Capital Athletic Foundation. 6 PM, International Spy Museum, 800 F St., NW; $1,000. Chairs: Daniel Snyder, Jack Abramoff, Jack Kemp, Joe Robert Jr., Eleanor Holmes Norton. Please report back to Special Agent Headquarters at [phone] or [email protected] . http://www.spyevent.com or http://www.capathletic.org/home.html
So, unless you can somehow explain why Eleanor Holmes Norton would be at a GOP fundraiser, just assume that not everyone who was there was on the take.

Also, per a WaPo story, the event was postponed, but eventually held raising just a few thousand bucks.
Cy Guy | Homepage | 01.04.06 - 10:20 am | #

[annabanana]

18. he wanted to "make some news". . . . ?

This is the first I've heard of it. And I've had the TV on in the background all morning...(NBC)

SOMEone's not letting it "make news". .

[wyldwolf]

22. He see's the big donkey kicking down the White House gates

[polichick]

28. Yeah, tell us something we didn't know years ago Chris...

How many emails did this guy get from viewers trying to wake him the f*** up?!?!

[tanyev]

33. But I thought you liked your democracy with a whiff of fascism, Chris.

I guess the stench of the Bush team got to be too much.

[Senator]

38. Jon Stewart Hit A Nerve??

(In case you missed the video.)

Not that the nerve was anywhere near Tweety's conscious mind. That beltway-blinded, pure careerist (as opposed to actual human being) would become suicidal if he were to ever touch the reality of the damage he does to our nation day in and day out.

On a side note: Matthews was overheard discussing his Tuesday appearance on The Daily Show; which featured a heated exchange with host Jon Stewart. According to one source, Matthews was steadfast in his belief that the debate left Stewart crestfallen, and Matthews victorious.

No sensory apparatus whatsoever.

--

[Carni]

40. Too bad it TOOK HIM EIGHT YEARS....

To figure this out!

Oh how soon you forget Chris, a time when you used to have that, so called Dem strategist, Pat Cadell on nightly...to rip Al Gore up one side and down the other.

How soon you forget your man crush on the weasel from Texas, that *straight shooting beltway outsider* that you gushed over night after night in the weeks and months leading up to the 2000 selection.

How can these guys call themselves journalists when they are less informed than the average whoever with access to google?

I knew in 1999 what a low down crook the chimp was--where were Chris and his ilk?

[Mz Pip]

51. Successfully, too

IMHO. Tweety never could refuse the Boy King anything.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[applegrove]

63. Just think what the outcry would be if this had taken place under Clinton or before 2000.