HILLARY'S HEALTHCARE PLAN

[William769]

The Clinton plan opens the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program to everybody, ensuring that anyone can access the same menu of regulated private options that federal employees get.

The plan also creates a new public option, modeled off (but distinct from) Medicare. That's a big deal: The public insurer offers full coverage and is open to all Americans without restriction. Public insurance is what I feared her plan would avoid, and instead, she embraced it wholeheartedly.



So the policy is very, very sound. The rhetoric is interesting too, being entirely about "choice." It's called the "American Health Choices Plan." The first section, on the opening of FEHBP and the creation of a new public insurer, is titled, "Providing a Choice of Insurance Plans." The first bullet point assures readers that every American will be able to keep their current coverage if they so desire. Etc, etc.

I'm not a big fan of individual mandates and private insurance companies, but in the spirit of Atrios's advice to "stop wanking," I also understand that my preferences just aren't on the table right now. And I have to say that I agree with Ezra: although the three leading Democratic presidential candidates have proposed healthcare plans that are similar in a lot of ways, Hillary's strikes me as not just substantively as good as any of them (and better in some ways), but also the politically savviest and most practical of the lot. Given her experience in 1994 (she knows what won't work) combined with the legislative canniness she seems to have developed in the Senate (she know what will work), that's not too surprising.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_09/012083.php

[Submariner]

1. Romney mandated choice health insurance here in Massachusetts

Because I am 60 the premium is $10500/year, or about 17% of my part-time work income.

The state can therefore shove their mandate where the sun does not shine, because I'm not paying. First the government takes away my guaranteed for life free health care benefits, and then they have the balls to turn around and tell me it's illegal not to have health insurance so cough up or we will fine you!

Shove Hillary's Health Care plan. It's a carbon copy rip-off of Mountain Meadows Mitt's plan for health insurance bankruptcy.

[poverlay]

2. Wow that sucks something fierce. I want to apologize even though I know it's not my fault. We're

all getting screwed on every level and it's only going to get worse I'm afraid.

I keep trying to figure out how to cover myself and my family's ass, but it's coming at us on too many fronts. It's like these sons of bitches want a complete country/worldwide collapse. I'm sure they've figured out how to make money out of that when it happens too...

[JDPriestly]

6. How right you are.

I suspect that it is not constitutional to require citizens to pay private companies a fee or tax just to be alive. And that is what these mandates require. The government decides how much you can afford to pay.

We need the European system. You are taxed to pay a fair share and the government pays the doctors and hospitals for your care. You can choose any doctor and any hospital. That is the only answer.

[MGKrebs]

60. Not sure what part of Europe you are talking about, but I believe that in France,

generally considered to have the best system in the world, patients pay a partial amount for their care and get reimbursed, often 100%, but not always, leading to the fact that about 80% of French citizens have supplemental insurance.

Health insurance is compulsory.

http://www.info-france-usa.org/atoz/health.asp

Also:
"... the average American physician earns more than five times the average US wage while the average French physician makes only about two times the average earnings of his or her compatriots. But the lower income of French physicians is allayed by two factors. Practice liability is greatly diminished by a tort-averse legal system, and medical schools, although extremely competitive to enter, are tuition-free. Thus, French physicians enter their careers with little if any debt and pay much lower malpractice insurance premiums."

And:
"French legislators also overcame insurance industry resistance by permitting the nation's already existing insurers to administer its new healthcare funds."

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/08/11/frances_model_healthcare_system/

[JDPriestly]

62. Bring in universal health insurance, and voila, you have tort reform.

It's the medical damages that motivate the litigation fever in many of the personal injury cases. Providing medical care to a child born with a serious birth defect means financial ruin to the parents. Why? Because the parents must provide for the child's health care, special needs, etc. Of course, if they think they have a slight chance of getting a settlement or judgment, they will sue. The amount of damages for pain and suffering and, when appropriate, punitive damages are often calculated based on =the amount of medical costs (past and future). If personal injury and medical malpractice plaintiffs don't have to worry about paying for medical care related to their injury, they will be much less likely to want to suffer through a lawsuit.

[JDPriestly]

63. The free education makes a huge difference.

A doctor here can easily begin his or her career with a debt of $250,000 or more. College through medical school is eight years, and then they earn a modest salary during their one to x number of years of internship and residency. The course work is not easy. They work long hours, but the work is very satisfying. I think they work longer hours here than in Europe, so the pay differential may not be as great per hour as you would think, especially when you discount the cost of education (and interest on the debt for the education for anyone who is not from a wealthy family).

[Tellurian]

7. Romney's concept of Hillary's Plan may be similar..

the difference is there will be choices for the individual and a federal subsidies for low income and elderly people. Romney's plan is an across the board payment plan. Your premiums are exorbitant and I don't blame you for being upset with his Plan.

[Sanctified]

64. When health insurance becomes mandatory the price for it will go through the roof.

I refuse to be told that I need to have health insurance and pay for it out of my pocket that is bullshit. If I need to have it the government can pay for it.

[MadHound]

3. Love how you leave out certain, vitally important things

Like the fact that it is going to be mandatory, whether you can afford it or not. That she envisions a time where you have to provide proof of insurance to get a job. Like how many millions and billions of tax dollars are going to be funneled to the health insurance industry.

Why are you leaving those matters out? Oh, yeah, they show up Hillary's plan for the POS it is.

[Maribelle]

4. Wrong. Nothing mandatory , no proof required in the plan she proposes.

"At this point, we don't have anything punitive that we have proposed," the presidential candidate said in an interview with The Associated Press. "We're providing incentives and tax credits which we think will be very attractive to the vast majority of Americans."

She said she could envision a day when "you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview -- like when your kid goes to school and has to show proof of vaccination," but said such details would be worked out through negotiations with Congress.

Link added on edit:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200709180016?f=i_latest

[Tellurian]

8. Unreal...people are so quick to condemn. Shoot first ask questions later..stupid!

I knew the Yahoo story was a contrived Hit Piece written to upset anyone reading it. Heck, it upset me too.
People of little faith get no where in this world! Republicans are counting on us eating are own. This point in time is like "The Last Temptation of Christ". If you don't believe there are good people out there; you basically have doomed yourself. ....Here's one chicky-poo they'll never get!

[Steve_in_California]

66. Hillary is a 14-carat phony and she must be exposed.

In 1999, I sent Hillary Clinton a 235-page report on the wrongful death of a Medicare patient at the hands of her doctors. Hillary was supposed to be working on a health care proposal at the time. Instead of making use of the report, she sent it back with a letter stating, coldly, she was "not interested in such matters."

When I showed her letter to the FBI agent, he commented that her actions were typical of today's politicians.

[MadHound]

9. No, nothing mandatory except that everybody will be required to have a health insurance plan

Either one through their employer, private, or a government option. ALL people will be required to have health insurance coverage, whether they can afford it or not. Sounds pretty mandatory to me. If you want, you can read it yourself <http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf>

And you belie yourself with your own quote: "you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview -- like when your kid goes to school and has to show proof of vaccination," Sorry, but you're spinning so hard on this one that you're making my point for me, thanks.

Oh, and do you want to address the incredible amount of tax dollars that are going to flow out of our wallets into the coffers of the health insurance industry?

[Maribelle]

10. Hillary has stated over and over there is nothing punitive in her plan.

If she is contradicting herself it should be easy for you to do a pull quote from her plan, or at least tell us what page you think its on.


"At this point, we don't have anything punitive that we have proposed," the presidential candidate said in an interview with The Associated Press. "We're providing incentives and tax credits which we think will be very attractive to the vast majority of Americans."

[MadHound]

11. Key phrase, "at this point"

Of course she's not going to mention the punitive portion during the campaign, it would drive away votes. But she certainly hints at it with her "envisioning" of everybody having to present proof of insurance to get a job.

Oh, and what about those billions of taxpayer dollars going to the health insurance industry, have anything to say about that?

[Tellurian]

13. So, your going to hang your hat on a nuance..."envisioning"

and if an employer is mandated to provide health insurance to his employees...wheres the beef. That whole scenario doesn't make sense..

When you get a chance...read this link provided by Maribelle:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200709180016?f=i_latest

[MadHound]

14. No, I'm hanging my hat on Hillary's own words

And going by what she has stated in her own document, which I linked to upthread. Funny, yesterday you were whining about people not getting the message straight from the horse's mouth, well, now that we are, you're whining that we're not getting the pre-digested version at your link. Funny, and rather hypocritical don't you think. Thanks, but I'll stick with the primary source, it is the most accurate after all.

[Maribelle]

17. I don't think you read the data in your own link.

You are most definitely NOT GOING by what she has stated in her plan. Give my head a break, would you.

[MadHound]

43. The link is above,

Show me where I'm wrong. I, and many others on this board, have used direct quotes from Hillary. What, you don't think that she means what she says?

[Maribelle]

51. Page 4 , Page 6

Try page 4 of the actual plan
Individuals: will be responsible for getting and keeping insurance in a system where insurance is affordable and accessible.
You are responsible for getting, does not mean it is mandated.

Try page 6
It ensures portability so that Americans do not lose coverage when they change or lose their jobs.


The same link you gave above.
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

[MadHound]

59. And you, contrary to her campaign, various experts, and the plan itself

Are parsing that to mean that she is not mandating that everybody gets health insurance. OOOOOOkie dokey, I don't think I can do much more here. As they say, you can lead a horse to water. . .

[Maribelle]

15. What no pull quote or page number from her plan?? And you accuse WHO of spinning?

"Envisioning" proof of insurance was not to "get a job". That's not what Hillary said. But rather "envisioning" proof was directed towards the benefits of portability from one employer to the next. Did you even read her plan?

Portability.

Portability would eliminate the "preexisting conditions" crap, and other things the insurance companies don't want.

So, tell us all how your candidate would facilitate the advantages of having portable health insurance.

[MadHound]

45. My candidate is Kucinich, you know, the guy with the real UHC,

Not this faux shit that Hillary is trying to spin as UHC.

I also suggest that you revisit Hillary's "envisioning" quote, and reread it for comprehension this time.

[Tellurian]

20. Your post doesn't make any sense..

If everyone in the workplace HAS to be covered by their employer, why or how would there be punitive charges placed on a prospective employee if s/he doesn't have health insurance?

Here is Hillary's official pdf. I just reread the whole thing and theres nothing in it suggesting anything like the Drudge possibly misquoted article you believe more than Hillary's published for all the world to see manifesto carved in stone..

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

[MadHound]

46. Neither does yours, but hey, thanks for reposting the link I posted earlier

And I just love how you try to dismiss Hillary's envisioning quote. Sorry, but the truth hurts sometimes.

[MGKrebs]

61. Which is the way it is in France.

But current income below about 6600 Euros don't have to pay (2005 number).

I haven't seen yet Clinton's plan on dealing with low or no income people.

[JDPriestly]

5. I posted a comparison of all the plans on two posts

The following posts links to my first post. You can compare the plans here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3532465&mesg_id=3532465

[Tellurian]

12. Except they're all Kucinich's Plan.. Here's an unbiased overview of the 3 candidates plans..

Sure, we all love Kucinich's Plan.. But it will never pass through Congress. Kuchinich's plan is like dangling a carrot over the publics head... You can look at it and want it....but..You can't have it.. It's a detriment at this point in time.

He may have good intentions. But knowing where we are now and where we need to be, all this has to be done in baby steps to accomplish a a universal, single-payer, not-for-profit health care system.

Hillary's plan is a first step and the best plan so far of the 3 Front-runners. I have today's link that lays out the three frontrunner's programs highlighting the differences between them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20819827/

[sandnsea]

18. That's an article on Clinton's plan

It doesn't highlight the differences. Obama's plan is the best so far because it doesn't have a mandate, has subsidies, and also has a real insurance reform element to make sure people are covered for what they're paying for.

[Tellurian]

21. No, scroll past the adverts and Edward's plan and Obama's plan is mentioned..

and their differences...

[sandnsea]

26. briefly mentioned, not compared n/t

[Tellurian]

31. The comparisons on the surface are indicative of a better plan than Obama..

Whether you admit it or not. Believe me I don't need your validation to know what is fact and the BS you peddle daily as your version of the Truth..

[Tellurian]

25. Obama's plan doesn't cover pre-existing conditions..

and he can't fund the plan until after 2010, when the Rich Tax Cut Expires.

Also, Obama's plan is across the board. It's one plan with no choice for coverages and nothing addressing your income on what is most affordable for you and your family.

[sandnsea]

28. It requires all insurance be equal to his federal coverage

So yes, it will cover pre-existings.

And the 2010 thing is so stupid, you need to stop with that. A 2009 budget can't change anything until 2010. That's like - DUH.

[Tellurian]

29. Show me the link where it says Obama's federal coverage covers pre=existing conditions..

If Congress votes in a majority of Democrats as well as a Demo president they can pass legislation anytime to stop the Tax Cuts to the rich...what are you trying to pull?

[sandnsea]

33. oh brother

Legislation passed in 2009 will take effect in 2010. For pete's sake, with all that would need to be done, it wouldn't even be worth the fight to do it any differently.

And the pre-existing is quite clear - you never bothered to read the link I already gave you.

Guaranteed eligibility. No American will be turned away because of illness or
pre-existing conditions.

[sandnsea]

30. Seriously, read Obama's plan

It is honestly better. All partisanship aside.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/HealthPlanFull.pdf

[Tellurian]

32. Really, you're getting caught up in your own BS..

making wild-eyed statement you have no idea if they're true or not. All you care about is shouting down anyone who challenges your so called knowledge.. pfffft!

[sandnsea]

34. No, that would be you

As proven by the fact that you didn't read Obama's plan because the pre-existing statement is quite clear.

[Tellurian]

37. There are so many holes in Obama's Plan, they should call it "Obama Swiss Cheese Health Plan.."

Hillarys plan covers pre-existing condition with no additional premiums incured...Obama's does not say that.

Hillary's Plan ensures that job loss or family illnesses will never lead to a loss of coverage or exorbitant costs. Obama's does not say that...

Obama wants to save an average of $2,500 per yr. What good is that when you're paying $12,000 a yr already? NADA!

There are so many sophomoric loopholes in his plan with wiggle room for additional charges and premiums, you could run an Indian Elephant through it. Go ahead sign up...I'm sure he'll send you a sympathy card when you lose your house over it..The card will say, "Thanks for your Vote"... "sorry about the house, but you know".... Later, Prez Obama!

Fagetabout it... I wouldn't vote for him or his plan if he was giving a plasma tv away at sign ups!

[JDPriestly]

38. Hillary's plan imposes burdens on lower middle class people

that they simply cannot bear. It is a horrid plan.

[sandnsea]

16. Mandates and Tax Credits

Nothing else she has to say matters because people can't afford those plans, and they're mandated to have a plan that will mean they won't be able to buy food. It's the Tax Credit that is the problem, not the plans.

[Maribelle]

19. No mandates.

I truly am saddened by this lack of facts posters critical of Hillary's plan have. I would truly love to debate Hillary's plan, but I am having a very hard time wading through the lies, innuendos, and very basic lack of understanding of her plan.

[sandnsea]

24. Yes, it is mandated

You have to have it. That's why Wall Street is raving. She blames the people for not taking care of themselves.

[Maribelle]

36. No mandates. The WSJ is full of itself.

Why do you even read it? It has been such a hate mongering mouth piece for Bush and Cheney for the past seven years. Do you really expect FOR EVEN A SECOND it will go easy on the democratic nominee?????

Read Hillary's plan and judge for yourself. No mandates are in it.

[sandnsea]

39. I did read the plan, read the words yourself

"Individuals: will be required to get and keep insurance in a system where insurance is affordable and accessible."

It can't be any clearer.

And what help will people who are required to pay an insurance premium get...

woohoo a tax credit.

"the plan provides tax credits for working families to help them cover their costs."

The Plan Sucks.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/

And the Wall Street Journal LOVES her plan because it puts the responsibility on the individual.

[Maribelle]

44. We all due respect, sandnsea...

First, your pull quotes are from the summary not the actual plan

Second, I think you might be misinterpreting "will be required for getting". This means that you and I, if we don't have insurance already are responsible for getting it - - neither the government nor the insurance companies will be doing it for us.

Third, The tax credit is a refundable tax credit designed to prevent premiums from exceeding a percentage of family income. In my minds eye, this could work similar to the Earned Income Tax Credit, which can put additional money right into the pay check. This is an extremely excellent help for low income workers just as the Earned Income Tax Credit is today. Nothing at all to scoff about.

On Page 4 of the actual plan the phrase reads:

Individuals: will be responsible for getting and keeping insurance in a system where insurance is affordable and accessible.

The word MANDATED in not used in the plan.

The word REQUIRED is used twice: Insurers will be required to renew if the individual wants to stay in the plan, and employers with large firms are required to provide health
insurance or contribute to the cost of the system.


http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

I believe a lot of people need further clarification on all the plans.

[sandnsea]

48. Incredible

Delude yourself if you want, the people know what the word required means. :crazy:

[Maribelle]

50. Oh, you're welcome.

I took the time to try to explain a perceived misconception on your part.

The phrase "delude yourself" is unwarrented.

Page 4 of the actual plan says "responsible". You go ahead and twist that anyway you want, sugar. Write Hillary and tell her that Hillary doesn't really know what "responsible" means, and she should should change it to "mandated" because that what you want it to say and you insist that's exactly what it will say, and c.c. the other candidates. You'll show her.

[Tellurian]

22. Try educating yourself and read the original pdf

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

And curb the BS slinging...you might hurt yourself.

[sandnsea]

23. I did, her plans sucks

Tax credits do not help working people, just like Bill's college tax credits didn't help working people.

Anybody who blames me for having a low income when big business created an economy that turned half the country into serfs, can take a big bite out of my left cheek. Fuck her. In a big big way. I didn't think I could hate her more, surprised myself, I do. She reminds me of a number of DUers who justify their $200 haircuts because they wouldn't be presentable with a $10 bottle of L'Oreal, like the rest of us. Fuck them too. Rich fucking assholes.

[Tellurian]

27. Hillary's plan Kicks Obama's Plan square in the ASS..see post #25

[William769]

40. So it Hillarys fault your poor?

Good luck with that.

[sandnsea]

41. I'm median income

Along with 50% of the country. The 50% who are going to get fucked by Hillary's mandated insurance and phony tax credit at the end of the year. The 50% have been sold this bill of good one too many times and will not buy it again. And are sick of being blamed for the economy the wealthy created to benefit themselves.

[William769]

42. So now you change your story?

First low income, then medium income, which is it?

[sandnsea]

47. Low income is median income and below, duh

Anybody who is in that boat knows that. The median wage in this country is just not that high.

[Maribelle]

49. Not mandated. Not a phony tax credit.

As I wrote in the post above, a good analogy of the propsed tax credit could be the Earned Income Tax Credit.

The Earned Income Tax Credit allows some workers to receive additional money right in the pay check each week.

This additional money in the EITC is over and above what they earn.

[Supersedeas]

35. Too bad the media is lost is the land of OJ to discuss the Health Care crisis

[Dilligent]

52. FEHBP

I don't know what you're so excited about the plan opening up FEHBP to the public. I'm a federal worker covered by this and pay $213. a bi-weekly pay period to cover my husband and I. The federal plans aren't what they used to be years ago.

[Vinca]

53. Hillary's mandatory insurance plan is a bonanza for the insurance

industry and nothing more. If any of the so-called "top tier" candidates really gave a rat's behind about the average person, they'd be endorsing the Conyers/Kucinich plan. If Cuba can have single payer, universal healthcare, somehow I think we can do it if we really want to. There's always plenty of money for war, but never any money for healthcare.

[William769]

54. Cuba is not a capitalist Country

It's also the size of Florida. If you think socialized medicine is going to happen in America, you are sadly mistaken.

[Vinca]

55. That's why I'm grateful to be married to a Canadian. nt

[William769]

56. Good for you.

[Vinca]

57. By the way - I wouldn't call the Conyers/Kucinich plan

"socialized medicine." The government wouldn't own the hospitals or pay the doctors, it would be a payment mechanism. The government could certainly negotiate prices (as the insurance companies do) - that's not "socialized medicine."

[sandnsea]

58. My socialized experience

Under the Oregon Health Plan, we have "health districts" that the state will reimburse. I don't know if there is only one facility allowed per health district, or whether the fact the state won't reimburse anyone else prevents any other doctor from practicing. Regardless, it means I have one clinic to choose from in my town.

So I decide to go ahead and take a particular nurse practitioner, even though nobody else in town likes her. You have to give your health provider a fair consideration before requesting a change. I didn't like her to begin with, she is dismissive and doesn't do much more than prescribe medication. But when I told her I was having swelling problems again, which was a symptom of my hypothyroid, and she recommended a diuretic - well I decided enough was enough.

So today I call to request a different doctor, a real doctor actually. They have a committee that meets once a month who will go over my chart and assign someone that best fits my needs. I have no choice in the matter.

People better be careful what they're asking for.

[Steve_in_California]

65. Hillary is a 14-carat phony and she needs to be exposed.

In 1999, I sent Hillary Clinton a 235-page report on the wrongful death of a Medicare patient at the hands of her doctors. Hillary was supposed to be working on a health care proposal at the time. Instead of making use of the report, she sent it back with a letter stating, coldly, she was "not interested in such matters."

[Enthusiast]

67. Hillary is taking care of the insurance industry

That is all. The insurance industry doesn't deserve one red cent for what they do. All the insurance industry does is deny care and skim their profits off the top. They provide zero care. Our health care dollor should go directly to pay for care and not insurance profits. Hillary's plan is wrong.

[avrdream]

68. Bumping in hopes that the very loud posters on DU actually read the plan.

The Democratic candidates are at least talking about health care. Where the heck is the support for that? No, it's just doom and gloom, doom and gloom. For fuck's sake, give the Dems a chance!