I never thought I'd do this. But I did, and I cannot believe what I've seen.

[Vektor]

I was tipped off to the fact that The Freepers were "responding" to my "Open Letter" post.

This one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3515875

Despite my better judgment, I went and looked at their responses, hoping that at least one person over there might be civil, or open to dialog. They were rather, er, well, nasty, and actually attacked me left and right. Which I feel pretty neutral about. I've seen worse in my lifetime. Oh, well.

Some things I witnessed on my lovely jaunt to FR:

1.) First off, the majority of them assumed I was a man. (?)

2.) They were PISSED OFF and very offended by the post, and said I was lying about the whole thing. :shrug:

3.) They actually accused me of "making the whole thing up" and backed up that argument by saying that I did not give the name, rank, and location of the soldier I spoke about, so it must all be a lie. (I guess it didn't occur to that individual that the point of my post was NOT to reveal personal information about another individual, but to drive home the fact that people don't HAVE to hate.) Why the hell would I post the soldier's information on-line?

4.) They took my statement that Democrats care about human life (which is why we want the war to end) and ran with it, saying "Why do you support abortion on demand (is that like "movies on demand?"), and baby-killing, then?" Interestingly, my view on abortion was NEVER discussed in this post - they just made that assumption about me, and accused me of that! Which is weird. Nowhere in that post was anything about abortion ever mentioned.

5.) They managed to extract from my post that I must have never had a civil conversation with a conservative before. (The point was that I do it all the time.)

6.) Another argument that they used to support the claim that I lied about the event was that they apparently think "nobody can remember a conversation that well." I guess I'm too stupid to remember a conversation, but smart enough to completely invent one at the "whim of a hat" and use perfect inflection and quotation while fabricating it. Not to mention, if I was out to stick it to conservatives and poke fun at them, why would I INVENT a conversation about a pleasant, agreeable conservative? Why not invent a phony conservative who was an asshole? That would work better, yes? Yeah, I want to make conservatives look bad, so I spent an hour writing a work of fiction about an enjoyable conversation with a kind, friendly conservative whom I liked. (?!?!?!?!) Ok, yeah, that'll work. :-)

7.) Best of all: they claimed my story was "boring" and I had nothing better to do because I must live in my parent's basement." Ok, I DID gloat a little as I read that, then gazed out the window of my beautiful house in the northern California hills, over a sprawling range of greenery, and thought "Damn, I have a nice home, and a nice view, and my parents live hours away. This is ALL MINE." And yes, I WORK for it. :-) Like a MOFO.

Wow. Just when you think you've seen it all. They were angry and offended by a civil unity post. Well, I tried. Sad. I never said a single offensive thing about conservatives in that post. I'm blown away that they were able to glean that from what I said. I wonder what their response would have been if I encouraged hatefulness and incivility to conservatives instead?

Funny thing is, I know many very hard right conservatives, and until recently, I lived in a REALLY red area. All the Republicans/Conservatives I knew were well aware of my politics, and loved me. Why? Because I'm likable, that's why. I almost considered being a tiny bit wounded by all the rather odd vitriol my post generated over there (who'da thunk it?) but then I remembered that if those people met me, and knew my sense of humor and how cool I am, they'd like me, even if it killed them to admit it. Because I DO rock. And I'm not all that hard to look at.

It's easy to be abrasive and rude on-line, besides. In person, people aren't quite so bold.

At any rate - here's where they rip me to shreds for being honest and thoughtful.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1896105/posts

I'm actually flattered that there were 110+ posts of seething rage brought on by my kind words.

[MadMaddie]

1. They can't stand it can they?

They only see black and white in their lives. They have no idea what civility is and it could slap them in the face and they still wouldn't recognize it.

I gave up a long time ago trying to talk some sense into them.

So a pat on the back to you for trying.

[Vektor]

8. Aw, well. Thanks just the same!

I can't imagine what it must be like to be so pissed off all the time. It has to hurt the soul something fierce.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. I loved your letter

It rang true because I have had conversations just like that with rational conservatives. freepers are a lower class, not worth your time imho.

[Pirate Smile]

3. How dare you say Conservatives can be civil when talking to a Democrat.

The nerve ....

[Vektor]

9. I know.

Maybe that's what upset them? They were pissed that a Republican marine actually like ME, a lifelong Dem. Oh, well, what can you do?

[jedr]

4. never attack the message, attack the messenger;

Repub' 101

[shaniqua6392]

5. I remember reading your post the other day.

I thought it was beautiful and hopeful. I actually forwarded it onto several friends. I hate to tell them over a freerepublic that they really are out the ordinary. They are really ugly and vengeful. I hope they are not calling themselves "Christians" too. What would Jesus think of the things they say? I know many Republicans and none of them sound like those morons over at that site. Don't be the least bit offended. Have you ever browsed on that site? It is horrific. They sound so hateful and even murderous at times. I felt like I needed a shower the one time I looked around over there! I think you should take that original post and submit it to newspapers or something. It would be a wonderful way to remind people that we are all Americans and should find common ground to make this a better nation. You will never find open minds like that over on freerepublic. They are anti-American and divisive. Blessings and peace.

[Vektor]

10. Thanks, Shaniqua.

Blessings and Peace to you too.

[NMDemDist2]

6. ....

:yourock:

[The Wielding Truth]

13. I'm so proud of you for being democratic and listening and

respecting both sides of this issue. I think it may be one of the most trying parts of democracy. I understand that you feel baffled at the crazed remakes you received from the so called freepers, but remember that your letter may have meant a lot to those on that side who just read and did not respond. Those members of that site may have been moved in a positive way by your post and will remember it.

Then there are operatives who view both sites and will chime in to drive us apart. Remember there is a big machine of media control that wants to survive despite reason and harm to America.

Thanks again for being a reasonable person.

[CoffeeCat]

7. It's really sad...

...but most arch-conservatives buy into the Rush Limbaugh distortions about liberals. They
all ready hate us. They all ready believe that we hate our troops and don't support them. It's
been ingrained in them that we are inhuman scum. The level at which you are speaking--which
involves kindness, compassion, rational discussion, honesty and thoughtfulness--is not a level
that the freepers care to attain.

They're entrenched in the notion that they're right and we're not as smart as they are and
certainly not as patriotic and worldly. Limbaugh and others feed the egos of these people--making
them feel as if they're "better than". Insecure types really go for this sludge.

That's how the cavern between the political parties became so deep. Dems and Reps used to be
two sides arguing intelligently about differing ideas. Now, Limbaugh and others insult, degrade,
dehumanize and devalue us--and convince their audience that we are to be hated, scorned, and
treated as dangerous.

A mature, moral, human conversation between a conservative and a liberal is foreign to them.
It does not compute with with Rush Limbaugh tells them. So, they call you a liar. They
throw in your supposed-abortion views to widen the argument and avoid the central issues. They'll
call you names. They're not on your level, sweetheart.

You're doing all of the right things. From the conversation you had--to posting that conversation
here. You are attempting to build bridges, create dialog and stimulate deep thinking. Keep
doing what you are doing--even though we live in strange times where higher-level thinking and
deep discussion of the issues is not understood by people who would rather get their information
from song parodies, monologues set to music and name-calling rants.

Press on...

[Vektor]

11. I guess...

my charm is lost on some people. O8)

[Igel]

14. I don't think the blame for the divide can be laid at one set of feet.

I've seen plenty of liberals/progressives with the same--albeit mirror--attitudes.

Sad, really, when you read a post in which the poster gloats about being an irritating asshole. I saw a few of them over at FP before I knew about DU. I found them usually annoying, most often close-minded. At DU I find that tolerance is enforced. I attribute most of the difference to Skinner et al. and his policies, with a salute to the mods.

That *doesn't* mean that the rigid conformity that I didn't display when my post count was under 250 or so didn't produce all kinds of demands that I prove my "liberalness" or accusations of being some sort of freeper spy (?) or troll.

Years ago, pre-FP and pre-DU, I occupied a student government office next to two other student government officers. One was on the opposite side of the political spectrum. We fought--ok, mostly he attacked. Finally he realized we wanted the same things, had the same hopes and aspirations for people, and so he was convinced I'd join his politics any moment. Over a year later it didn't happen, and so I finally let him in on the secret: We agreed in our goals--there were a few differences, but over 90% of them matched up really well. A superb education for all, long life with no disease, productive happy citizens, peace instead of war, low military expenditures as a desideratum, freedom of speech, tolerance and racial harmony, etc., etc., etc. But we disagreed on the probabilities of a given approach achieving the goal, what policies were best, because we disagreed about how people behave, the causes of some problems, etc., etc. We lost touch in '03, I think it was, but we'd probably still disagree on the hows and whys, but not the goals.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

18. self delete

I'm feeling the love for DU, which results in less than cogent posts. MKJ

[BeyondGeography]

12. Those people are sad

and when the Democrats take control of all three branches of government next year, they'll be even sadder.

You tried.

[frogcycle]

15. I think you are overreacting

sure there were some knuckledraggers making generalizations about all DUers being babykilling bedwetting jihadists, but there were quite a few that seemed to appreciate your points. I was actually surprised at how tame the comments were; based on your description I expected much worse. Hell, I've seen equally vitriolic ad hominem attacks by Duers!

Face it - some 80% of the population are reasonable people who just want to get along. The ten percent at both extremes generate the vast majority of the news, and the noise. Of that 80%, there are certainly "conservatives" and "liberals" - and they manage to coexist.

If the media didn't spend all their time focusing on the two extremes in a bizarre mainstreaming of the Jerry Springer Show, there would not be nearly so many who think "the other side" is the devil. Its the same crap as all the stories the Catholics used to teach their kids about Jews eating babies and drinking their blood (did you know that was common in New Jersey in the 40's? Read Phillip Roth's "The Plot Against America http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6344452/ ) This is standard we vs. they human nature. We are tribal animals, and being suspicious of the other tribe is a survival tactic. Having raging hatred of them is too. Some of us manage to rise above that; some don't.

Your post was thoughtful and conciliatory. I agree somewhat with the Freeper who said it was a little condescending because you seemed to assume this guy would be a Michael Savage type, but as one of the others said, hey, you learned something so what's the beef?

That a few of them gave the predictable dismissive and ugly comments is meaningless. Those are just the normal grunts they emit whenever prodded with a stick. They'll quickly sink back into the mud and be quiet.

[Vektor]

19. Did they add more posts?

I read all 111 of them and one person, "Hemorrhage" was the only one who was civil. And they accused him of being a troll.

I was NOT being condescending assuming the guy would be a Michael Savage type. The guy actually had books by Michael Savage lining the shelves of his home.

I was being straightforward.

[frogcycle]

21. Well, here's one - I admit there weren't many

To: Hemorrhage

It’s an okay post. But I guess whenever I read something like this, I’m surprised to realize that there are places where democrats and republicans - or moreso “liberals and conservatives” - simply cannot tolerate each other or live amongst each other. It surprises me because I know that dynamic exists. I know there are people on DU who fit that bill, and honestly, I fully realize there are some here at freeperland who bristle at the thought of a Democrat in their home.

It seems so foreign to me because I live in Austin, and let me tell you, if I couldn’t co-exist with liberals to some extent, I’d never be able to live here or enjoy a normal life. I have friends who are Dems, libertarians.. and then friends who are more conservative than me.. and we argue, we bicker, get mad at each other.

It’s all serious stuff, and I don’t discount it - we are talking about people’s values here.. to some degree their character, but I’m also not so smug as to think I have the whole world figured out and that I have nothing left to learn from anybody. We have politics but at the end of the day we’re all Americans and we all still have to live with one another. Or, we just cut off from segments of society...and that’s no life for me.

So, if this kid (he/she seems like they might be young) learned not to be so stodgy in their views, and to keep an open mind about meeting someone who he/she thought so “diametrically opposed” as to not even be able to have a reasonable conversation with them.. .then hey, better late than never. We all have to grow up sometime.

And hopefully he/she gained just a little more respect for our men and women in uniform. Lord knows they deserve it - from everyone.

jmho.

[Vektor]

24. Ok, yeah, that is kind of decent, huh?

Mostly big meanies there, but this post seems pretty cool. I tried to go over there and "mingle" but they banned me. :-)


I wrote a post about it though. :-)

[frogcycle]

31. they don't want to be contaminated by us

i regidtered there once; asked a question and got banned

[Vektor]

35. But I have to add...

I didn't need to "learn to respect our men and women in uniform" - my father and grandfather are Air Force veterans, and I thanked the guy for his service right off the bat. I never have lacked respect.

It's funny how even this guy who seems pretty reasonable buys into that nonsense that Dems don't respect our veterans. We respect them more than anyone - that's why we keep fighting for their safe return, and an end to the constant cutting of their benefits by this administration.

[frogcycle]

36. no question, the bigotry is pretty overwhelming

of course, that actually makes sense. The far-right is made up largely of the very same populace who were the dixiecrats - the enforcers of racial prejudice and stereotype.

It IS a very strong human trait. It is in large measure instinctive; it goes 'way back to when our ancestors exterminated cro-magnon man. It is the same visceral reaction that makes so many people hate snakes, and immediately seek to kill them, regardless of species.

These primordial-minded beings grow up with a basic attitude toward the world that everyone and everything aside from their close-knit circle is a threat and is evil. They fuel that attitude by ascribing various evil practices and beliefs to "the enemy". "Blacks want to rape your daughter; jews drink babies' blood"; now its being refocused on hispanics, but politically these thugs believe that all who are not this guy: bubba are out to take away whatever they hold dear. They HAVE to think of us the same way they think of snakes; it is the only way they can rationalize their mindlessly stupid paranoia.

The post I referenced is one who is questioning the teachings of RW catechism, and might one day denounce them. Some might say you are his lefty counterpart. The fact is, there are plenty NOT on that fringe, on both sides, who are forever unreconstructable. We have people who immediately ascribe every death of every soldier who has been rumored ever to question the war to the "bush killing machine." I'm not saying there is or is not such a thing; just that these people yell "snake" at the drop of a hat. Your interaction that you described demonstrated to both of you that neither was a snake. That's a step.

And I readily acknowledge that I am saying unabashedly that some of them ARE snakes! Timothy McVeigh was a snake. Needed stomping. James Earl Ray was a snake. Needed stomping.

[Vektor]

37. Hahahaha...Bubba.

Now that's funny. But I definitely see the seriousness of your point. It's sad really, I wonder what it must be like to live in that mindset.

Probably a pretty unhappy place - always being on the defense and everything.

[BrklynLiberal]

16. They get fat and ugly off their own ignorance... 5th rec. off to the greatest with you.

[sam sarrha]

17. one must have compassion for the Mentally ill, they know not what they do they only speak one

language called Spinn, there are Various dialects of Spinn.. none actually say anything, but shouting it loudly does provide an emotional reward of some sort similar to masturbation.. which they do only with their right hand, it seems all the Freeper babies born left handed are euthanized at birth, a well kept nasty little secret.

the larval stage upon reaching puberty grow wings and become flying monkeys. in their later elder years they grow even more morose and irritable, and spend a lot of time leering at small children and farm animals...

[John Q. Citizen]

20. You hit those freepers right where it hurt. You loved 'em to death lol!

[Vektor]

25. Check this out.

I tried to "love them long time" but they zotted me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3524216&mesg_id=3524216

[John Q. Citizen]

30. Once your a Jet, your a Jet all the way!

[karynnj]

22. Wow, they are so angry they couldn't even see where you were coming from

Your story was beautiful and well told. There responses are unbelievable. Funny that we see a story like that and see it as the good side of reaching out - they need to bash it.

[Vektor]

38. Oddly - they bashed me for fabricated stuff

that was never even talked about. Very few actually talked about the post itself, and why they disagreed with it. They either nailed me to the cross for my supposed "baby-killing" - a red herring/straw man/non-sequitur all rolled into one which had NOTHING to do with the discussion, or they removed the possibility of having to address the actual issue by accusing me of lying.

It was really odd, the almost pathological avoidance of civil discourse.

[babylonsister]

23. You are such a charming, brave woman to share so eloquently with us,

Vektor. I can't imagine the next thread the ill-informed FR people will come up with. And I don't care either. You are the epitome of grace and intelligence, and I do thank you for both posts. Class will out.

[Vektor]

27. Thanks!

I guess I should be flattered that they were so mad. I guess I'm being effective or something.

[jillan]

26. Vektor - I must confess

that I thought you were a guy for the longest time.

(Then I read your haiku's - lol)

Folks - Vektor is not a guy - she is gorgeous.
And hysterically funny.

(haha - I just embarrassed you. But you are!)

So Freeps - there you go again. Nothing but a bunch of made up lies.

[Vektor]

28. Maybe that's why the soldier would talk to me.

The freeps wondered why a Republican soldier would talk to a nasty Liberal.

Maybe he thought I was SEXXXAY.

Or maybe he was bored.

[jillan]

33. Oh stop being so modest!

After meeting you, I am certain that he is changing his party affiliation.

[Vektor]

34. Now that would be a miracle.

OMG. Your smiley RULES. Stealing.

[DemBones DemBones]

29. Don't let it bother you.

I'm often accused of being a man here at DU. I guess the "problem" is that you and I "write like a man" as opposed to a brainless female. :sarcasm:

If none of the freepers can remember that much detail about a conversation, they must have serious short-term memory loss, too much :smoke: perhaps. Or too many years living in their parents' basements plus too much :smoke:.

Your open letter was well-written and made good points about getting along with people despite political differences, but the freepers couldn't have an open mind while reading it. They all very likely have authoritarian follower personalities and therefore resent anyone who doesn't "properly respect" legitimate authorities. (As if they respect any Democrats, even presidents.)

They didn't like the idea that an Iraq veteran was not all Hoo-ah in your face defending the war, that you actually had a conversation with him. Veterans who don't support the war are considered traitors even though they put their lives on the line while the freepers were hiding out in mom's basement. The freeps don't like DU because we don't blindly follow leaders (watch out for parking meters.)



Here's some info from a book by a psychologist who has been studying authoritarians (both followers and leaders) for forty years:

"Authoritarian followers seem to have a “Daddy and mommy know best”
attitude toward the government. They do not see laws as social standards that apply
to all. Instead, they appear to think that authorities are above the law, and can decide
which laws apply to them and which do not--just as parents can when one is young.
But in a democracy no one is supposed to be above the law. Still, authoritarians quite
easily put that aside."

"They also believe that only criminals and terrorists would object
to having their phones tapped, their mail opened, and their lives put under
surveillance. They have bought their tickets and are standing in line waiting for 1984,
The Real Thing. There might as well not be a Fourth Amendment to the Constitution.
And when the Military Commissions Act of 2006 is used to deny people the right of
habeas corpus--one of the oldest rights in western law--it is unlikely that
authoritarians will object to the loss of this constitutional guarantee either."

Remind you of anyone?


You can read the entire book "The Authoritarians" at http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
and it's very much worth reading. I just read it a second time the other night.

[Vektor]

32. Yeah...that authoritarian thinking is some scary business.

Very 1984 indeed, and really disturbing.

[Vinca]

39. There is something about "them" that is just not normal.

Maybe there really is a Republican brain (or place where one ought to be - LOL). They don't ever seem to be able to break out of their tiny, scripted world and listen to other points of view without attacking. Why would they go all "baby killer" and assume you're pro-choice, for example? Aren't Dems allowed to have differing opinions? Kudos for trying to reach the dark side. I go over there to read posts every so often just to remind myself where that 30% is hiding.

[Vektor]

40. That, and...

Pro-Choice does not even mean "baby-killer."

They hear the term "Pro-Choice" and get all loony, assuming you enjoy "murdering precious babies."

For example, my mom is Pro-Choice, and she's also very religious, and a total humanitarian who loves babies and children. She also happened to be an OB nurse prior to Roe v. Wade, and saw firsthand what it was like when back-alley butchers performed illegal abortions and people threw full term babies in dumpsters to die because the law required they carry to term, like it or not. Because she's a realistic person who looked at both sides with objectivity, (from front-line experience) she saw being Pro-Choice as the safest and most reasonable answer to the very complex dilemma of the abortion issue. Being Pro-Choice doesn't mean you HAVE to get an abortion, encourage others to do so, or even like the idea of it. It simply means that you realize passing laws curtailing reproductive rights does not solve the problem, or make it go away. It means you don't advocate the govt. making health care decisions for you or anyone else. If you see being Pro-Choice as not being "Pro-Life", or being "Pro-Baby Killing" then you'd have to be a very black and white, ignorant, simple-minded individual with no depth of vision, or ability to think critically, because there's way more to the issue than that.

[genieroze]

41. Being a Freeptard doesn't mean being conservative.

I know many conservatives and we tend to agree on more things than disagree.
My husband is more liberal than I am. I tend to think of myself as moderate leaning to the left. Many people who post at FR are of the lunatic right wing fringe class. Most are narrow minded and unyielding. You can't reason with people like that, they are happy in their delusional world. I went to that site once, it was enough. Your open letter was beautifully written. That's the kind of conservatives I know, for the most part.:)

[Vektor]

42. That's comforting...

I suppose there are a more moderate class of conservatives who are the majority. Those nasties are likely the fringe, as you said.

[glitch]

43. They aren't Conservatives, they are Fascists. The LAST thing Fascists want is Conservatives and

Liberals talking to each other.

[Vektor]

44. It's sad, huh?

There were actually people at FR who acknowledged that they were aware of the "divide and conquer" tactics being used on the citizens of this country, yet they freely give in to the divisiveness anyway.

[glitch]

45. That is sad for the freepers. On the other hand, it is the Fascists' Fatal Flaw.

Once we all get together and we all see what they are doing, they are so outnumbered they don't stand a chance.

[Vektor]

46. True, and I hope it happens soon.

It's really hard to watch so many people wallowing in complacency while their brains are being washed.

[Vektor]

47. Delete/dupe.

Same post appeared twice.

[Skittles]

48. their sterotypes about us are so f***ing pathetic

I don't know any Democrats who live in their parents' basement - only repukes - but I still do not assume all repukes live in their parents' basement. Only f***ing IDIOTS do that.

[renie408]

50. Live in basements or make assumptions? n/t

[Locrian]

49. I've spent way too much time thinking about this...

But I have always been interested in a "scientific" way what makes the freeper species tick. I believe it is a lack of strength more than anything else. They have to construct this elaborate house of cards on how "tough" and how its all really "survival of the fittest" because they are not able to find true strength.

True strength is what you show in your letter - the ability to open yourself to others. To risk your point of view by actually discussing and showing empathy. That to them is the scariest thing, because they cont know themselves.

Look at how animals play. The STRONGER dog frequently exposes himself in play, laying down on his back and exposing its soft spots. He/she KNOWS who is the stronger. Its part of feeling confident, its part of interacting with others.

Sadly - most of the freeper types have become so insulated in their own microcosm that they find it extremely difficult to change. So they lash out at any threat to their house of cards.



I think this from the "Polar Bear plays with Dog" sums it up http://nifplay.org/polar-husky.html

Anyone who has ever tossed a Frisbee to a beloved dog knows that playfulness crosses species lines. What does this mean? For humans and other animals, play is a universal training course and language of trust. The belief that one is safe with another being or in any situation is formed over time during regular play. Trust is the basis of intimacy, cooperation, creativity, successful work, and more.

Play practitioner Fred Donaldson has developed many of his successful healing techniques by first deciphering the play signals of animals through close observation, then using them to join in and play-bond with animals such as wolves and bears in the wild. He has adapted these techniques to his remarkable work with hostile gangs, warring political parties and other groups locked in lose-lose battles. He also works with disabled children to help them reach the freedom and utter joy found in a state of deep play. Play signals run deep in our heritage.

Kids have society's permission to play, and most adults don't. Somewhere between childhood and adulthood, most of us exchange play for work, and forget to play with the abandon and joy of childhood. Giving adults the “go ahead” and techniques to resume adult forms of play offers multiple benefits. Being capable of generating, recognizing and acting on the play signals of others establishes, or re-establishes trust, safety and adaptation to the unexpected or complex. Perhaps this truth has been buried in the usual win-lose contests that characterize most adult negotiations.