Let's put the guns and knives away, it's over.

[Raven]

I love John Edwards and I admire Wes Clark and I think Howard Dean rejuvinated the democrat party this year. But it is over and the voters have told us this. Now, we still have super Tuesday to come but I doubt it will change the political landscape. Everyone who worked long hours and shed tears for their candidate...everyone who stood out in the freezing cold with a sign...everyone who was conviced that their candidate was the only person who could salvage what is America after Bush gets done with it...listen up! Put quite simply... it's Bush vs. Kerry and if I were to consider which man's lifeboat to jump into, there would be no question. I use the lifeboat image not without thought...we as a country are in a terrible mess, both at home and abroad...a terrible mess...we need to unite behind the opponent of Bush, as difficult as that may be. I'll say this again, with 40+ years of voting experience (and many tears) behind what I sat...put the weapons down and the tears and the egos and the idealistic hopes, and support the anti-Bush. Please. If we don't, we will surely loose.

[Cuban_Liberal]

1. It is NOT over.

It will be 'over' when someone has 2161 delegates, and NOT before then!

[bearfartinthewoods]

39. it would be refreshing to have someone declase the race over

when their guy was ahead if it hadn't been done so often before.

[PretzelWarrior]

2. prepare to be flamed.

you've been warned. <whispering>"but I agree with you"

[madmax]

3. I'm with you, Raven

Kerry's the man.

[janx]

4. We're still under 25% of the primary vote.

It has only just begun.

[mzmolly]

5. 25% of the delegates are in. That's like declaring the Super Bowl over at

the end of the first half. ;)

[bigwillq]

8. I like your analogy. Good point n/t

[bearfartinthewoods]

46. errr...shouldn't that be the end of the first quarter?? n/t

[Forkboy]

69. nitpick nitpick nitpick

:D

[Burma Jones]

50. Yeaaahhhh But

One Team is healthy and the other barely has 22 players and is quickly running out of money to pay them. And the cast of the halftime show has to stop thinking it's actually playing in the game.

That's what I think about the football analogy, but my candidate is already out, so I am a little disappointed.

[eileen_d]

6. Put the guns and knives away?

Shouldn't this be in the gun dungeon? ;)

[Guava Jelly]

7. You may be correct BUT!!!!!

i enjoy the coverage our guys are getting.
I want dean and edwards to stay in even though they are probably doomed to failure. By being in and keeping the debate going Our guys are in the spotlight.
This my friend is a good thing.
After all since they have been Bushs numbers have been dropping and even the bush fawning pundits are talking up our guys and mildly bashing bush.

[bigwillq]

10. Dean and Edwards: "doomed to failure"

For sticking up for what they beleive in? I have to disagree.

[Guava Jelly]

15. That didnt come off as i meant it to

"Dean and Edwards: "doomed to failure""
much apologies

[bigwillq]

18. OK, apology accepted. I wasn't offended I just was

disagreeing with you. That happens here sometimes. Welcome to DU!!

[diamondsoul]

Gee thanks. I can just stay

home and dig the hole to bury my head in for the next four years.:eyes: :puke:

[sasquatch]

9. What about Kerry already caving in though

The right wing already posted those photos of him and Jane Fonda. So he did what the DLC usually does. Stick their tales between their legs and quit, hoping the Republicans will be nice to them.

[Don Claybrook]

11. I think you're right

I wanted Dean to get the nomination, but I saw several weeks ago that it wouldn't be. 25% of the delegates notwithstanding, John Kerry is the heir apparent.

He wasn't my first choice, he was my second. But do you know what?

He's going to

kick

the living

hell

out of George W. Warcriminal.

That makes him my new best friend, and I've got his back.

And I'm talking a minimum of a 15% lead in the polls by election day. Call it the BBV buffer.

[WilliamPitt]

12. self-deleted so I don't get grounded

[madmax]

14. Atta boy, Will

You remind me of my son. :loveya:

[Raven]

20. I hope he's not a MS pig like my guy!!!

:-)

[madmax]

27. He is

I don't understand - they have liberal mothers! :shrug:

[Cuban_Liberal]

16. I was forceful, but respectful in my reply.

:)

[Raven]

17. William! Go to your room! Stay out of this! I can defend myself!

Thank you.

[Cuban_Liberal]

21. Go, Mom!

*grin*

:hi:

[Don Claybrook]

22. This is GD2004

I happened to agree with your mother on the point she made, but that's beside the point.

There are rules that govern this forum. And neither you, nor me, nor your mom, nor anyone else gets special dispensation because of who they are, who they know, or who they're related to.

[Raven]

25. Whew! Right on!

I can do a pretty good job on my own. I don't know what got into Will!

[Don Claybrook]

30. So as to play both sides of the fence repeatedly...

I know you must be about as proud of him as a mom could be. He's done a real and measurable amount of good for the American political system, and that's quite an accomplishment.

But I hadn't argued with anyone all day long, so I thought I'd jumpstart things and go straight for the big guns. :)

[SinkingInTheRain]

28. Why the special case?

I would think that any and all here would treat eachother with respect regardless if it is the mother of a DU celeb or just the mother of a mere mortal.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

29. Your Mom can take care of herself. (nt)

[Punkingal]

31. You're joking, right?

Raven is your mother?

[WilliamPitt]

32. She is indeed

[Punkingal]

40. Jeez!

How could I not know this? I may have to hang up my moderator shoes over this! :dunce:

[VelmaD]

37. Dangit...

I always miss the good stuff. x(

[funky_bug]

13. While they still have a voice, let them speak.

It's a shame to force another's hand.

Clark inspired me. I could not give up on him. I still haven't given up on him. While the masses have a voice, please, let them speak. I'm looking for all the infighting to subside as well, but my friend, we're still in the primaries, and 75% of American remains unspoken.

[nborders]

19. I agree

Time to rally the troops and head off into that battlefield wher money is bullets.

I love/hate the way we elect people in this country.

~n

[The Magistrate]

23. Well Said, Ma'am

It is clearly time to concentrate all fire on the common enemy, the criminals of the '00 Coup.

The argument that only a quarter of the vote is in, and so there is still a chance for upset, as if this were a foot-ball game in its first quarter, is a mis-guided one. It is, really, much closer to the early hours of an election night when only a quarter of the votes have yet been counted: in that circumstance, when one contender has twice the votes of the other, that condition does not materially change as the night goes on. Most people who are going to vote in the up-coming primaries have already up their minds who they will vote for, and it is unlikely there will be any great event that will alter their view.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[pmbryant]

35. I think that is a poor analogy

It is, really, much closer to the early hours of an election night when only a quarter of the votes have yet been counted: in that circumstance, when one contender has twice the votes of the other, that condition does not materially change as the night goes on.

In the case you are talking about, the votes have already been cast, but just haven't been counted yet. In the current case, the votes haven't been cast yet. Most are two weeks or more away from being cast.

I don't think most people's preferences are set in stone at this point.

There is no point declaring this over today, after one medium-size state votes, when we have a huge bucket of primaries coming up in two weeks, including some of the biggest states in the country.

After Super Tuesday, then we can talk about this being over or not. Until then, the race goes on.

--Peter

EDIT: Changed subject line slightly

[The Magistrate]

41. Well, Sir, It Seems Apt Enough To Me To Put It Up Here

The results in Wisconsin tonight will be within spitting distance of those from last Tuesday, and you will find that the results of the early March contests will be not too different from the result tonight, at least if all the various personages remain in the contest till then. That does not seem likely to me, however: Gov. Dean in particular will have tremendous difficulty retaining competent professional staff and securing funds, and this is likely to force his hand in a way his followers will be much disappointed by.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[pmbryant]

43. If so, then it will be over then

But I see no point in pre-judging how the voting will turn out in California, New York, Georgia, Ohio, Maryland, etc on Super Tuesday. Several of these are huge states. Why short-circuit all the excitement that a competitive Dem primary will lead to in those states?

Maybe the results will be the same as they have been so far. If so, the race will be essentially over at that point.

But meanwhile, that part of the game has yet to be played. And Wisconsin is small potatoes compared to those Super Tuesday states, so it is silly to declare the race over now. Declaring it over after Virginia and Tennessee would have made more sense (though I still would have disagreed, of course).

--Peter

[The Magistrate]

49. Excitement, Sir, Cannot Be Whomped Up Out Of Thin Air

If there really is no hotly contested race, there will be no great excitement over the contest. In this primary, there really is not, now, a great deal of real competition for the Presidential nomination left; whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is to one side of a judgement whether that is the state of play.

The truth is that very few people make up their minds concerning their vote at the last moment: like most questions of human relationships, elections are largely settled by first impressions, and just as you will generally know within seconds when you have met a friend, people generally know quite early who they really are going to vote for, if they are going to vote at all. That latter question is more often decided late, and thus most campaign efforts turn on solidifying the decision of supporters to vote.

It is true that in narrow contests, the small number of people who do not make up their minds at the start, whether by ideological or other political conviction, or the feeling that a particular candidate is the one they feel in tune with at first sight, become an object of intensive courtship, but in a situation where one candidate has a decisive lead over another before the polls open, they have little effect.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[pmbryant]

70. No, but this Wisconsin result should help ;-)

Kerry's less than 40% showing, barely 5 points ahead of his nearest challenger, is hardly an indication that the race is over. There is plenty of excitement left.

And I have to disagree about people voting primarily based on their first impression. This may be true in lower profile races, but not in Presidential races. At least not for most people.

And in this race, where the differences between the candidates are not major, many people can change their minds many times, and are unlikely to decide on someone until they really have to. The dramatic shifts in the polls in Iowa and NH in the last few days are evidence of that.

On to March 2! :-)

Peter

[burning bush]

24. Can I say Fuck That?

without being rude to you?

I hope so.

[Raven]

26. I've heard that f- word before!

:-)

[Panda1]

33. It's not over yet.

Sorry, but I won't roll over and play dead yet.

Besides, this has all been decided by the GOP-owned-MEDIA and the DNC, not by the voters at all. TV lies.

Are you saying my vote in CA just doesn't count at all? Sorry, but last time I looked, I still have a vote to cast for MY choice for a nominee. Not the Whore Media's Nominee.

Ultimately, I'll vote ABB....I always do.....but what about all those new voters who were actually inspired by Dean, Clark et al? Where will THEY be in November? Will they just say screw it.....back to business as usual in politics. I fear they will opt out and just stay home. We boomers get it....we know how it's played, but the younger folks still had some idealism. Too bad it just got smashed.

If Kerry is our nominee, so be it.....but gird your loins for four more years of BFEE rule.

[kiahzero]

51. Um...

How, exactly, did the media fake elections in 17 states?

The Media decided it *up until* the voters started voting.

[Panda1]

59. Please forgive me.

I shouldn't have cast aspersions on the liberal press. They were indeed completely fair to Dean. You're right. I'm wrong. I must have had a momentary lapse in consciousness.

I guess when the word "electability" kept being bandied about I took it the wrong way. How silly of me. Yes, the press has been so impartial and fair and I expect they will continue to be very, very fair.

[MoonRiver]

34. I agree with you.

But those tears and hours in the snow and heartbreaking dedication (I should know) are worth everything we put in to them. Americans are mobilized as never before to defeat this illegitimate, unbelievably corrupt, and 100% evil * regime. We Dem activists have helped bring the * cabal crimes into mainstream awareness, and I for one feel very proud of this.

I do feel that the person best suited to defeat * is going to win the election. Kerry's energy is palpable and exciting. I say this while still wearing my beloved Clark avatar. That's because although I think Kerry may be best posed to win, Clark will forever remain in my heart as the candidate who could best lead our country. Others differ, and I respect their opinions. I still hope and pray that Kerry chooses the General as VP. That combo will represent a political a-bomb exploding right on jr.'s AWOL arse.

[VOX]

36. Maybe true, but it's only two weeks until Super Tuesday...

Guns and knives away after that, I promise.

Cheers :toast:

[w13rd0]

38. kerry that shit...

...n/t

Rally behind the guy who's covered a 1/4 of the marathon run...run Forest Kerry, run! whatever...

[meow mix]

42. screw that - mind if we vote first?

can we have a friggen election?!?!?!?
GAAAAAAAH!!
ID LIKE TO VOTE!!

[janx]

44. I'd appreciate that privilege also.

Because it sure isn't looking anything like a right anymore.

[Raven]

45. There are faulous people in this Forum!

And everyone's hopes and dreams I respect and they are mine. All that I am saying here is that, in this political system, there is a time to be realistic...I know that hurts for many to hear... and if this were another year...another president, I'd say... go at it! But it is this year. 3 1/2 years after the pretender in the White House stole the office...John Kerry is a flawed man like every other candidate if you look closely...but he is a good man who means well for this country. If he doesn't then there is no hope for US. We need now to beat he demon!

[Paulie]

48. I just want to VOTE on March 16

I want it "sort of" counted. Just once, I want to vote FOR someone, not against another.

Plus, Will has been making a difference with his new job. Fear ends, hope begins, Will has a job!. What more can ya ask for??? :D ;)

[janx]

54. That's great. Let's let people vote.

We'll have even more advantage to beat the demon then! ;-)

[uhhuh]

47. Please!

While I think that your opinion is as valid as anyone else's (even though I don't agree), I hate seeing people refer to our party as the Democrat party. It's like nails on a chalkboard. The right wingers have been trying to get people to do this for years, and it keeps working.
We are Democrats. We belong to the DEMOCRATIC party. This place is not the Democrat Underground.
The wingers have been defining us to everyone for years and years. Now they are choosing what we call ourselves. This may seem unimportant, but it does have an effect. How are we going to take charge of our own message, if we don't even know who we are?

[Zhade]

52. Ahem: FUCK THAT.

THIS progressive is not "falling in line", so thanks but no thanks.

[tobius]

53. You have a good point, and was thinking about it

this morning. Kerry is the presumptive nominee, with very little chance of some kind of comeback for the rest who are running. My thoughts were wandering down the same road and I was anticipating the rules to be changed by the moderators to call for an end to criticizing Kerry.


But the more I thought about it the more I realized there is still time until the convention, and to shut everything down now would be a disservice in the unlikely event that something earth-shaking occurs to change political landscape.

[Mick Knox]

55. It's not over..... or else theres no election news

No opponents = No News = Mass Disenfranchisement,etc = No Mar 2nd is very important...

Everyone knows JKerry IS the nominee... that doesnt mean an en masse drop out is whats best for the party (or even the press)...

its kerry.. take it to the bank.. This is tried and true formula for elections and how to get press.

Let it run its course... DNC knows EXACTLY what they are doing.

They didnt just fall off the turnip truck.

[molly]

56. A "terrible mess" is an understatement to be sure

this is not a kid's game - this is very serious stuff. We can't reset our little game module and pretend all this didn't happen. Geez - I have dreams about it every nite - we are in deep doo-doo and we have people that want to "send a message to the Democratic party" or "vote Nade or 3rd party". They obviously cannot clearly see what is at stake. Perhaps they cannot remember Viet Nam and the aftermath of that era. Maybe they forget Nixon and Watergate and the pain caused to us. Maybe they forget the early 80's when home loan interest rates were around 13%.

Maybe they need our memories - huh, Raven?

[Raven]

57. Let me make one more thing clear...

there is nothing great about politics...nothing. There are no herotic figures left in my life...only people who are basically honest and who mean well ...all of the Dem candidates meet that standard. There is no nomination for sainthood here...really... we just have to make sure that this country makes a major course change or I think we are all goners...really...it's just that serious to me. The man in the White House is going to ruin us.

[janx]

58. I'm voting for Howard Dean.

Yep.

How's that for clarification?

[Panda1]

61. So am I.....

.....I am voting for Dean. I'd still like to have a vote if nobody else here minds. I thought I still had that right. At least I "think" I still have that right. Hopefully my vote won't now classify me as a traitor to the Democratic Party.

[IndianaGreen]

60. 60% of all Wisconsin Democratic voters rejected John Kerry

It isn't over by a long shot!

The fact that all the party hacks were on TV tonight calling for an end to the race tells me that the Kerry people are nervous, particularly when the average voter is made aware of Kerry's voting record.

[arewethereyet]

62. I think you're a little premature Raven

this one's getting interesting !

[NoPasaran]

63. There's no doubt that * is going to carry my state in November

I have been redistricted into solid Rethug congressional and legislative districts. There are no statewide races. March 9 is the last chance I have this year to actually participate in a meaningful election. Please humor me. Let me at least pretend that what I'm doing has a purpose, mkay?

[Redneck Socialist]

64. Screw that

The remaining 75% of the country might just like a say in the nominating process.

This primary is the best thing that has happened to the Democratic party in four years. For most of that time the Democratic party sat around with its thumb up its ass and did nothing while bushco shit all over us.

Now, finally, the party has begun to wake up. What began as a sleepy yawn, a mumble of "hunh, what's going on?" is now becoming a roar of protest. Every piece of media in the country is carrying our message right now even faux "news." The best way to insure that that message continues to be heard is for the primary to remain as competitive as possible.

Chucking in the towel now will only allow the eye of the media to shift back to bush allowing him to continue to spew his lies. I would much rather have five more month of our team traveling the country explaining to one and all how each one of them is the best to unseat the pretender.

[auburnblu]

65. Kerry can't even get 40%

Kerry cannot even get 40% when he has been deemed the clear Dem nominee. This reminds me back before Dean collapsed of his inability to do well in New Hampshire. If Edwards wins even one of the three states before Super Tuesday, it may be good-bye JFK

[David Dunham]

66. On Thursday, Kerry gets the AFL-CIO Endorsement. Then It's Over

Every Dem who gets the AFL-CIO endorsement win the nomination. Gore got it and beat Bradley in every state.

[IndianaGreen]

68. Funny that none of the members of my union local have been asked

about which candidate we should support.

Party bosses and union bosses are both out of touch with the rank-and-file.

[fishnfla]

67. It's not over, it never ends, really.

In 20 years we'll still be talking the same way.

[RetroLounge]

71. Must follow media script

so it is written, so it shall be...

:boring:

[HFishbine]

72. Question

Has your state had its primary yet?