Will Dean's War on Florida Backfire?

[IndianaGreen]

Will Dean's War on Florida Backfire?

This past weekend the DNC threw the book at the Sunshine State's Dems for signing on to Florida's recent move to hold its 2008 presidential primary election two months earlier than usual and a week earlier than DNC rules allow. Florida's Democratic Party has 30 days to back out of the new Jan. 29 primary or face forfeiting all of its delegates and votes at the Democratic National Convention next summer, according to the draconian DNC ruling. (The Republican National Committee's rules also frown on the earlier primary, but the RNC hasn't demanded that Florida's G.O.P. reschedule it for a later date.) As Dean warned earlier this summer, if Florida's Democrats insist on holding their primary in January, it "essentially won't count." To which Florida's Senate Democratic minority leader Steve Geller says, "I question whether Howard Dean is working for the Democratic Party or the Republican Party."

Geller's confusion is understandable for a number of reasons. Florida Democrats had, and have, little choice but to go along with the state's decision to leapfrog its primary from March to the front of the pack in January. First, they didn't have the votes to block it: Florida's legislature is controlled by the G.O.P., as is its Governor's mansion. More important, most Floridians want their primary moved up: the 2000 debacle may have subjected them to national ridicule, but it revealed the peninsula's new bellwether muscle — and they feel they deserve to flex it now in a presidential kingmaking process that could be decided by March of next year.

Telling them they don't deserve it isn't going to endear the Democratic Party to a state that is regularly referred to these days as the new California. In Florida, as Geller notes, national elections are often "poised on the edge of a razor blade. They can go either way." As a result, Florida's Democrats are dumbfounded that Dean and the DNC would put the state's 27 electoral votes at risk, not only by muffling its say in the Democratic nominating process — top Democratic candidates will be less likely to stump in Florida if the DNC sanctions are carried out — but also by alienating the peninsula's legions of centrist and independent voters in the general election as well as local and state races.

And for what? To make sure Florida and everyone else adhere to one of the most absurd presidential nominating processes in the free world? It's amusing to hear the DNC big shots argue that if Florida got its way in this case it would invite "chaos" in the primary system. One of the main reasons Florida wanted to move its primary up in the first place was to get ahead of the chaos that already exists. Third World countries like Mexico today hold more modern and truly democratic primaries than America's, whose Iowa- and New Hampshire-centric traditions seem as atavistic to a lot of people as using groundhogs to forecast the arrival of spring. If a silver lining emerges from the Florida-DNC standoff, it might be a consensus on a new arrangement, like the rotating regional primary schedule endorsed by the National Association of State Secretaries of State — the people who actually have to run these elections.

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1656632,00.html

[draft_mario_cuomo]

1. Should we cede 27 electoral votes for 11 just to preserve the royal status of IA and NH?

The 2008 election may be close. How can we realistically expect to win Florida if we disenfranchised them during the primaries? That would depress Democratic turnout, Democratic activism and turn off many independents.

[IndianaGreen]

2. What did Iowa do for us in 2004? They gave us "Mister Electable."

Then they turned around and voted for Bush in the General Election.

What will they do for us in 2008, give us the "It's time to have a woman President," only to go red again in the Fall?

Bottom line: Iowa = 7 Electoral votes, Florida = 27 Electoral votes.

Common sense dictates that we keep our more populous state, and their Democrats, happy.

[LittleClarkie]

3. Is that better or worse than what Florida did for us in 2000 and 2004

Meanwhile, these folks knew the rules. It's alittle ridiculous, this race to be the first. South Carolina wants to be the first in the South. Florida is leapfrogging.

The Florida legislature wanted this batter. Well, they've got it.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

5. We need Florida; we don't need Iowa nt

[IndianaGreen]

7. "these folks knew the rules" Are we a Stalinist party now?

Chairman Dean is punishing the Democrats who lack the votes to reverse their own legislature.

What if another GOP-controlled legislature pulls the same stunt to set up their local Democrats to be disenfranchised by Dean and his Deanbots.

Whose side is Dean on?

[LittleClarkie]

8. Read Madflo's journal. The Dems were as hot to do this as the Republicans

They wanted "relevance".

The Florida Dems are now spinning that the "Devil made me do it" in the form of the GOP.

Horsehockey.

Both the Dems and the Republicans in Florida wanted this fight. Dean's just trying to prevent a free for all.

[IndianaGreen]

9. If I wanted to know who the Gnostics were, I wouldn't go to the Catholic Church

to hear their version of history.

The poster you referred to has posted numerous threads stating rather negative views about Florida Democrats, and a cult-like belief in Chairman Dean.

Let's say that poster is the Catholic Church telling us about the Gnostics, while this thread is an outside source with a different point of view as to who the Gnostics really were.

Let DUers hear all sides of the story, and make up their own minds.

BTW, Florida has 27 Electoral Votes, Iowa has only 7.

[LittleClarkie]

11. Then how about this:

http://www.jacksonville.com/apnews/stories/032107/D8O0PVN02.shtml

Especially this bit at the end:

The Florida Senate is waiting to see what happens in other states before moving forward with a date, said Sen. Jeremy Ring, D-Margate, who is leading the effort in that chamber.

"It gives us a chance to really watch the landscape," Ring said. "When we're done Florida will be relevant."

The Florida Dems signed off on the rules, so now they need to follow them. They are in place for a reason.

Meanwhile, I rather like Governor Dean myself, and don't like the assumptions being made about him because some people don't like the primary process.

[IndianaGreen]

13. "The Florida Dems signed off on the rules." Somehow Myers-Briggs type SJ comes to mind.

Florida Democrats don't have the votes to change the primary date. GOP has no interest in changing the primary date because the RNC won't punish them.

Whose side is Dean on?

[LittleClarkie]

16. Why elect a Chairman if you're not going to listen to him?

And since the Florida Dems didn't have the votes to change the primary date, it's a good thing they had the GOP there to help them.

The Florida Dems are not victims here.

[IndianaGreen]

18. Senator Nelson and Florida delegates are arrested at Democratic Convention in Denver

Can you visualize the TV images, on national TV, of Democrats being dragged from the floor because the DNC denied them credentials? How will that play in Peoria?

Add to that the thousands of antiwar demonstrators that will come to Denver to demand an immediate end to the war in Iraq. Think tear gas and cops beating the demonstrators.

How many PR crisis can the DNC handle?

[KittyWampus]

46. YOUR posting history, IndianaGreen, since you brought up the topic has been one dividing Democrats

for years you've been doing that. At every opportunity.

I had you on ignore foryears til I took every one off about 6 months ago and I find you're still doing the same shit.

You don't give a crap about this topic but are happy to have found a story where you can stir shit up against Dean in the Dem. party.

And that being said, why should we care about this story YOU posted when it's so obvious why you posted it?

[IndianaGreen]

48. The Congressional Democrats cave-in on war funding and warrantless searches did more to divide...

Democrats than any crazy allegation on your part, particularly on a topic in which a majority of Florida DUers agree with the TIME article.

I was a Deaniac way before you even knew he was running for President. The difference is that I don't believe in personality cults and that the DNC has made a serious tactical and strategic error in punishing the Florida Democratic voters just to keep their precious Iowa and New Hampshire first.

If you prefer 7 Electoral votes over 27 Electoral votes, then I suggest that you redo your math.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

4. And NH barely voted for Kerry and that was because he was from next door Mass.

If we nominated someone else NH would have went for Bush. Great point. The only time Iowa actually worked for us was 1976.

You are exactly right. We are idiots if we decide to surrender 27 electoral votes for 7 and 4.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

38. Ummm... wrong. Iowa went to Dukakis in 1988

And you people who think Kerry was a bad choice- I suggest you go out and find a candidate who can get 59 million votes despite months of whithering attacks of smears and lies and a press which would not do its job and report on these smears and lies.
And we almost did it WITHOUT FREAKING FLORIDA as Ohio proved.

[LittleClarkie]

39. If Kerry was in the race right now

I'd campaign for him again in a heartbeat.

I agree with you. Who else would have gotten 59 million votes.

[madfloridian]

6. Goody. Let's attack the DNC from the left and from the right.

And let's refuse to pay attention when others have shown that Florida did not tell the truth..

New folks here must be wondering what's going on.

In this thread we have the left side which wants 3rd party and does not care if Democrats win or not.

In this thread there is the right which doesn't like the changes Dean is trying to bring.

Both sides attacking the center.

[Kagemusha]

10. Yes, couldn't the state party have said, please help! GOP holding us hostage!

Please invoke the clause in the national rules that provides relief in these cases! We're trying to resist this in good faith but we've been forced to have our primary moved up because the Republicans outvoted us in the legislature! Please, help! Have mercy!

Did they do that? NO.

[LittleClarkie]

12. In fact, almost all of them voted for it. Some have said they had to as it was a popular bill

but did a Democrat have to sponsor it? Why did only one Dem feel the need to vote against?

I agree with whoever said the Dems in Florida didn't fight hard enough against this, and in fact, wanted it as much as the Republicans. It's not cool now to try and hide behind the GOP and say they were MADE to do it.

Bah.

[IndianaGreen]

15. But many of you bought the argument that Congressional Democrats lacked the votes to stop Bush

yet, here you are applying a different standard to the Florida Democrats who don't have the votes to change things, even if they wanted to.

This is nothing more than a Chairman Dean loyalty oath, with Stalinist mass punishment of the innocents: the Florida primary voters.

Way to go DNC! I wonder what other blunder will you commit to lose us votes next year.

BTW, if Iowa and New Hampshire change their dates, I expect Chairman Dean to punish them in the same way he punished Florida.

[LittleClarkie]

17. Apples and oranges.

We may lack the votes to stop Bush, but if it ever did come to a vote, I reckon that most of the Dems would NOT vote with the GOP. Only one Dem voted against this. Just one. So if you don't have the votes to go against something, you vote for it instead?

The Florida Dems did not vote to stop this change, they voted to perpetuate it.

Dean, I believe, is on the side of the Dem Party as a whole, not just one State's Dems. The primary voters have their own state party to thank for this.

[IndianaGreen]

20. Chairman Dean is showing the same authoritarian streak of a Tom DeLay

March in lockstep, or else.

What will Dean do if Florida Democrats want to push the primary date back, but the GOP-controlled Florida legislature refuses, as I expect them to do? The DNC disenfranchisement of Florida Democrats will make Chairman Dean look petty and dictatorial.

So much for DFA!

[Kagemusha]

22. Get off your high horse. If the state party hadn't endorsed this move they'd have delegates.

It's because the state party endorsed the legislature's action loud and proud that they cannot benefit from relief from the national rules. The rules were not written by idiots. A clause was added for parties held hostage by legislative majorities by the other party to apply for and obtain relief from such punishments. That doesn't require "the votes" - that requires actually seeking relief.

What the state party did instead was to wholly back what the Republicans did - for which, albeit with lesser parties, apparently the RNC is going to punish Florida Republicans for, too! - and demand that the DNC, all of it not just Dean, bend to their will and accept what they had done.

In other words...

"What will Dean do if Florida Democrats want to push the primary date back, but the GOP-controlled Florida legislature refuses, as I expect them to do?"

They'll get their delegates back, that's what.

This situation arose because the Florida Democrats did NOT want to push the primary date back, but rather, dictated that the national party go along with it.

[IndianaGreen]

26. So because the DNC had its feathers ruffled, you are going to punish the voters?

That's very white of the DNC!

Will the DNC obey a court order, if they lose their case, or will they set themselves up above the law, like that other party.

BTW, there is no indication the RNC is going to strip Florida Republicans of their delegates.

Sometimes people can't tell the difference between principle and stupidity.

[Kagemusha]

28. No indication? Eat link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/29/washington/29cnd-calendar.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

I'm not going to dignify "very white" with a reply.

[LittleClarkie]

31. I think that the perceptions of some are being colored

by what they think of the rule. But that's rather beside the point. Opinions on the rules not withstanding, the rules are the rules, and have been agreed upon by the states. Why have a hierarchy if you're not going to follow it. The Florida Dems are welcome to form their own party if they like.

[cali]

44. LOL! I love your rhetoric!

It is so utterly predictable. Yes, of course Dean is really a Stalin type, a dictator.

In all likelihood this will work out. One thing is certain, the time to change the status of NH, IA, Nev and SC, is not the year before the election.

Continue on with your amusing and inaccurate comparisons to the DNC as a fascist organization.

Silly stuff.

[Kagemusha]

21. I would LOVE for Dean to punish Iowa and NH likewise if they do that.

I am horrified at the idea of having Iowa caucuses in Dec 07. Horrified. International mockery.

[IndianaGreen]

23. The horror and the mockery is having Iowa and New Hampshire always first

Iowa and New Hampshire will claim that state law forces them to move their caucus/primary forward, so Dean won't do anything to them.

Funny, Florida law forces the Democrats to move their primary forward, but Dean sees this as some sort of testosterone challenge.

Calling Doctor Dean! Calling Doctor Dean! You are wanted for hypocrisy!

[Bitwit1234]

14. Why holler about Dean pulling dem votes.....

in the primarys....the republicans are going to do the same thing.

[Colonel Bat Guano]

19. So if all FL Dems in the leg voted no....

...and the overwhelming number of Rs in the leg voting for the 1/29 date voted yes....

...this wouldn't be happening with the DNC?

Really?

Because that means millions of Florida voters are losing their voice because of the advocacy of several dozen legislators....and even if every single one of them voted no, this would have passed.

Florida Dem legislators have a bad attitude. So spike the whole state.

Not a real good idea, tactically.

My wife has been working frantically for one of the Dem candidates. She now thinks she'll have to concentrate her efforts into out of state calls where votes will be counted.

If this sticks, Dem candidates will pull back, and Repub candidates will be out in force...because they'll be smart enough to figure out that Florida is and always has been A SWING STATE.

Everybody who's wondered where and when the Dems would give up the 2008 election, this is it. Crippling the Dem primary and putting the eventual nominee behind the 8 ball....yeah. Good plan.

You want Rudy or Mitt or Fred in the White House, write off Florida. Good fucking thinking.

[Kagemusha]

24. Yes, if they'd done that this would not be happening.

The legislators aren't the only ones with a bad attitude. The state party chair wrote this really nice (cough) kiss my butt type letter to the DNC saying, we fully support the Republicans on this, you will comply, you will kneel before us because we are Florida, hear us roar.

I am no fan of the Iowa and NH golden child status but, this is not how to win friends and influence people.

[LittleClarkie]

36. Which is why I think it's rather bad form to now say that even if they voted against it would pass

That's beside the point. They wanted this too. This is not the GOP playing games with their state Dems. This is a non-partisan joint effort by both parties.

[madfloridian]

42. Here's what the committee said.

"But James Roosevelt Jr., the rules committee’s co-chairman, said he was not convinced that Florida Democrats had done all they could do. He said it was “clear that the Republicans were the moving force behind the selection of a date that violated both the Republican and the Democratic rules, but that the efforts to oppose that were form over substance.”"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/us/politics/26calendar.html?_r=1&em&ex=1188273600&en=786933bc52e9c2f2&ei=5087%0A&oref=slogin

[cobalt1999]

25. Latest poll among democrats here in Florida is over 2 to 1 against the DNC action

A sampling of the newspapers reactions is pretty harsh towards the DNC too.

State Democrats' anger justified - Tallahassee Democrat
The Democratic National Committee were seeking a recipe for revolt, Florida might well be its main ingredient. The national party's decision to not acknowledge the Jan. 29 state presidential primary and its refusal to seat delegates from Florida at the Democratic National Convention in Denver next year is not only punitive, but also self-destructive.

Sticking up for Sunshine State voters. - Sun-Sentinel Editorial Board
What, it's OK for both parties' presidential candidates and fund-raisers to traverse the Sunshine State in search for cash, but it's not OK for Floridians to move up their primary so their voices and votes can be heard and counted?

By Refusing To Count Our Votes, Democrats Are Writing Off Florida -The Tampa Tribune
The Democratic National Committee, which accused Florida of failing to count every vote during the 2000 presidential election, says it won't count the votes of Florida Democrats in the 2008 presidential primary. That's right. The party that castigated Florida for disenfranchising voters now plans to disenfranchise every Democratic voter who participates in Florida's primary. What hypocrisy.


Threats of holding back donations and taking the DNC to court will intensify when the republicans have a similar meeting and will allow the republican delegates to count.

[Kagemusha]

27. See, there's a really basic problem here...

If Florida's state Democrats actually renounced the moving up of the primary, they would have a case.

Instead, left and right, they're defending moving the primary up and fully backing that action, which they blame entirely on Republicans, as justified, proper, and correct. They knew it was totally against the rules set up by delegates of ALL states at the DNC, and they just don't care.

And a story came out on DU a little earlier tonight saying how the RNC is going to wipe out a third of Florida's delegates.

[cobalt1999]

34. You're fight, they could have put up a token fight in public...

while working for it in private. The RNC hasn't formally decided anything yet, just threats. If they are smart, they'll seat the entire Florida delegation and throw it in the democrats faces over and over.

Doesn't matter anyway, they'll both eventually seat the entire delegation once the convention rolls around. Who's going to risk pissing off a large potentially swing state?

[IndianaGreen]

29. Looks like the GOP does not have a monopoly on disenfranchising voters

The DNC should smell the coffee and take a couple of steps backwards before they come to regret it.

[LittleClarkie]

33. Eh, fuck the rules

who needs stinkin' rules anyway.

Try that line out on the next cop who catches you speeding. "Thought that law was stupid anyway, officer."

[madfloridian]

30. Could be because they have one side of the story.

Could be the propaganda being sent in emails by the state party.

Remember how many people supported the Iraq invasion when the media was beating the wardrums?

[LittleClarkie]

32. The Republicans are threatening too

Their rules are even stronger.

Meanwhile, I didn't think the rules were open to a popularity contest.

[cobalt1999]

35. Acutally, the RNC is only threating 1/2 or a 1/3, not the entire delegation.

Again, if they are smart, they could waive the rule and make political hay by being the more "democratic" party. I think they'll wait until the DNC decision is final after 30 days and implement a much lesser punishment.

[jmp]

45. The Dem votes aren't the problem ...

They will hold their noses and vote for the Dem candidate next Nov no matter insane Howard Dean behaves.

Independents are another story. People get upset when unelected cabals try to boss their state around.

[William769]

37. Well it must be true.

Politics makes strange bedfellows. :hi:IndianaGreen

[fujiyama]

40. Sounds like poor handling on the part of the DNC

All I know is that most people are sick of their state having little to no impact on the nomination process, unless they are from IA or NH.

Primary participation is particularly low because most figure the nominee is decided by party hacks.

And allowing two small states to have this much influence on the nomination process is crazy.

[madfloridian]

41. Florida lied and the DNC caught them at it.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

They tried to blame Dean, but the DNC had the floor transcripts from the primary vote where they laughed and joked.

[wndycty]

47. Waaa Waaa Waaa

:kick:

[cobalt1999]

43. You are correct.

Most people are sick of their state having little to no impact. It really came to a head in the last election when everyone but Kerry and Kucinich had already dropped out by our turn.

I don't blame the Florida Legislature, as some do, they listened to their constituents over the party committees...as they are elected to do.