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ludwigb Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:48 PM
Original message
Hillary and Electibility Revisited
For the sake of full disclosure, I admit it--I oppose Hillary on substantive grounds. The war is the prime mover: Hillary does not seem to support full withdrawal, and her opposition (such as it is) appears very late in the game to me. I don't think Senators have much of excuse for not opposing the fiasco publicly (naturally, Edwards is arguably even more complicit in this regard). Perhaps some sympathy could be mustered if she had supported the overthrow of Saddam, but opposed the resulting occupation--but Hillary waited so long that her reversal draws suspicion of political calculation. Personally, I believe her reversal is sincere. This indicates not so much dishonesty as an error in judgment--her reversal took too long.

Perhaps I confess ignorance in this regard, but I am not aware of any major Senatorial accomplishment Hillary can claim except being a popular Senator and bringing home the bacon to her state. Nonetheless Hillary would have us believe that her experience in the Senate gives her the edge over her rivals.

Now returning to the war, I suppose Barack Obama never had to face the hard political choices a Senator from New York is faced with. But this freedom from compromise and complicity is an electoral asset! It may be true that the body of Americans who supported the war at first and now oppose it (like Hillary) now rivals the original anti-war contingent in size. Yes, Hillary appeals to some of the former. But Obama's advantage is he can claim consistency on the war AND he can show empathy and magnanimity by publicly acknowledging that virtuous people were wrong about the war, even if he wasn't. Admittedly, Obama will still have to face the question "Would it have been better to leave Saddam in power?" (to which the obvious answer is yes, though I doubt any 'major' candidate will have the balls to say so). However it is equally likely that Clinton, like Kerry, will face the same attacks regardless of her yes vote, and she, unlike Obama, will have to face the charge of being irresolute.

I'll admit that Clinton has some strong political skills, and that the other 'major' candidates aren't offering much more in terms of policy (though I'd contend that each one does offer progressives a few more concessions, here and there, policy-wise). Realizing this, my position on Hillary has softened a bit. But I still retain much of my original feeling that Clinton represents a suicidal tendency--not only do we nominate a candidate likely to rile up the GOP base and reinvigorate the 90s culture wars, we also nominate the candidate whose presidential prospects were partially kept afloat because of the Right's obsession with her. A baffled Timothy Noah looked at the fervent GOP conviction that Hillary would enter the race in 2004 and concluded that Hillary was useful to the GOP as a fundraising tool....

http://www.slate.com/id/2088758/
http://www.slate.com/id/2088820/

Now, one wonders if those GOPers weren't on to something after all. Because Hillary has, in line with the ambivalent desires of the GOP, entered the race after all.

What is it that makes Hillary more electable than Edwards, Obama, or Richardson? Hillary supporters call up her experience, her poise, her reasonableness, etc. If only the American people were so clear-headed.

Edwards and Obama both appeal electorally. Both are handsome men, which appeals to women (without necessarily turning off those women who resent Hillary's accomplishment and independence). Edwards offers a plain-spoken appeal to ordinary Americans that might win important parts of the South. Obama offers an inspiring new face to represent America and its aspirations, as well as the hope (to us and to the world) that the US is finally making progress towards racial reconciliation. Given their dose of religious righteousness, both of these men will play better than Hillary with the evangelicals who DO vote (as we discovered in 2004). Hillary, to be sure, might help turn out women and those non-voters who appreciated Clinton's sane presidency. Still, I don't see her electoral appeal as being larger than Edwards and Obama--and that doesn't factor in the GOP machine and how it's likely to react to Hillary. Or the possibility that the Republican candidate will be able to portray himself as the candidate of change when matched up against the familiar Hillary.

Finally I wonder which candidate will prove the most likable when the general election campaign really gets going--in those heady days of September and October. Our candidate will need formidable reserves of energy and a deep, passionate voice. Sure it's not impossible that Clinton could be this voice but I wonder what is possible if we choose another path.
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femmocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Someone please tell me I'm not reading this in 2007.....
'' Both are handsome men, which appeals to women ''

:banghead:
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ludwigb Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Sorry....
but this a thread about electability. Democracy is neither beautiful nor sublime--it valorizes the ordinary and/or the shallow. But as Churchill remarked, history hasn't come up with anything better.
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youngdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Sorry. It's reality.
If not, how in the hell do you describe Dan Quayle?

He was brought in solely to improve Repuke numbers with women.

Worked. He and The Dark Lord were elected.

Lots of voters are INSANELY shallow. Men and women.

Just reality.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. I was reading your post and trying to take it seriously
until I got to the part about handsome men - and their appeal to women. God you must think women are dumb or easily rolled. What century are you living in? Or, perhaps you hang out with Tweety.

Also, while you pointed out that you could not ascertain any particular senatorial accomplishments by HC, you failed to judge JE and BO by the same standard.

I asked you why you seem to be making your decision based on what the Repubs want or don't want. Its your decision - why give them the power? I hate that argument. Makes Dems look like wusses.

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ludwigb Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. LOL I suppose my argument would be stronger without that statment
I'll say that. But I do stand by the point that the better looking candidate usually wins in American politics.

Your second point is quite fair, but as I mentioned I already oppose HRC on substantive grounds, and support the others (partially) based on electability concerns. Yes, their records are equally weak, but contrary to propaganda Clinton's is not stronger.

In a better world politics would be the art of the reasonable and the possible, but in the real world politics is war waged peacefully. No military commander goes into battle unaware of his enemy and what motivates that enemy.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. "without necessarily...
"without necessarily turning off those women who resent Hillary's accomplishment and independence".

Who exactly would those women be? Anyone woman who doesn't like Hillary?

I have much better reasons to not support Hillary and find that statement rather insulting.
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ludwigb Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Resentment is a big factor in politics
I'm talking about women who believe they hate Hillary, but are actually jealous of her. Personally, I think Hillary is quite virtuous, but many women in Middle America would disagree.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You really think you can speak for women in middle America? eom
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. As a middle America woman I can say that all the women I know won't vote for Hillary
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Wow - you must have a very narrow group of female friends. eom
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. Many Dem leaders and possible candidates are very worried over Hillary as the nominee.
A new poll out shows that dems and indies will vote for Guillianni over the amount of republicans and indies would for Clinton.
this was on CNN so no link. Just what they said.
the party is having a hard time recruiting due to the possibility of Hillary as nominee. They worry because in their districts because she is highly disliked.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. eeeeew - they are so afraid
What a bunch of wusses.
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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. "... which appeals to women..."
A damn shame that there's some truth to this, as much as we'd like to think not. Another example of equality of the sexes; plenty of shallow dumb-asses on both sides of the x/y chromosome divide. My friend's wife voted for Bush because she didn't like Kerry's wife. As far as I can tell, that was her defining "issue".
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
14. So far looks like Hillary will lose the Mountain West states
except for New Mexico

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=938

Even though I live in CT, I'm supporting Gov. Brian Schweitzer for reelection as Montana's governor. His popularity is high right now and he'd most likely win another term, even if Hillary is a drag on down ticket candidates.
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