For those who think the military is truly "volunteer" - You are WRONG...

[HardWorkingDem]

If all opportunities were equally available to all Americans, then it might be truly "voluntary" but for the majority of military members, the military is not truly "voluntary".

When I was in the service I made a point of asking as many soldiers that I could the reasons for enlistment. The number one, two and three answers were job, college money and economic/family security.

This is not to claim many people do not join out of full choice, but from those I asked it was more of a sort of economic compulsory process than strictly a "volunteer" process.

[Solo_in_MD]

1. still voluntary

[Common Sense Party]

2. Yup. Some voluntarily enter the military, some of us voluntarily

take out student loans and get saddled by years of debt.

Neither choice is great, but both are voluntary.

[Richard Steele]

3. Just as voluntary as starving on the street, here in the wonderful B*sh economic boom.

[HardWorkingDem]

9. Here's an example of one soldier..

There was this one Native American soldier from the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. One day I asked him how he entered the military and his reply was a plaintive, "I needed a job." Now, explain to me how a kid like this can actually "volunteer" for the military?

[Jed Dilligan]

4. That's an insult to my friends

who have come up from poverty without selling out.

[HardWorkingDem]

7. Huh? Please clarify...

Can you add to this comment?

[Jed Dilligan]

10. Sure.

I know people who have managed college, etc. from extremely impoverished origins, who never considered joining the military because it is so obviously a fascist war machine. The idea that being poor means you can't perceive right from wrong is insulting.

[HardWorkingDem]

12. So, you are saying it is wrong...

to join the military? And anyone that does is selling out?

And that those in the military are those belonging to a fascist war machine?

[Jed Dilligan]

16. Since Vietnam, pretty much

but with the schools in the state they're in I'd accept a plea of ignorance.

What bothers me more is the "poor have no choice" angle.

[HardWorkingDem]

25. Not claiming the "poor have no choice"....it's limited...

Never did I state the poor have no choice; what I'm stating is the choices are limited and somewhat compelled and if some sort of other organization provided similar salaries, benefits and opportunities things would be different.

[Jed Dilligan]

26. The poor aren't stupid, though.

They see people go off to the army and come back with jack shit, just like they see people getting into the dope game and ending up dead. Some fall for the scams anyway, and some don't. Respect for the intelligence of those that don't--please.

[HardWorkingDem]

30. Not saying they are stupid either....sheesh...

But how about a little false consciousness if you will....

[ClassWarrior]

18. Apparently your friends are poster children for the RW.

You know, the "anyone can pull themselves up by the bootstraps here in America" crowd. I heard a teenager say the other day, "Problem is, they never issued my family any bootstraps."

I'm happy for your friends, but theirs aren't the typical stories.

NGU.

[Jed Dilligan]

21. Well, it is hard

whether you seal a deal with the devil or not. I have more respect for those who don't. To those I do, I at least extend the respect of acknowledging that they made a choice as rational human beings. In my view, their choice was wrong. Better to live and die in poverty than serve an evil cause. I've done it most of my life up until recently--lived in poverty rather than taking obvious routes (advertising, marketing, the military) to material success that I don't believe in morally.

[BoneDaddy]

5. By that logic

no one is accountable for their choices. It is a volunteer army. If you want to have the discussion that the armed forces are often the most potentially viable option for people you will get no disagreement from me, but it is a choice none the less.

We do not conscript our soldiers or force compulsory service, so it is a choice. To call it anything else is to take that very important power away from them.

[HardWorkingDem]

8. My point is....

not about being held accountable for one's choices, it's about it is not true volunteering because one's choices are limited and forced upon them. Especially the "job" aspect of it.

[BoneDaddy]

11. I agree and totally understand your point. My point

is that "victimizing" people, when they are clearly not, is more disempowering to them than honoring that choice they made. Again there is no argument from me on the opportunities that are not there for people, but I struggle with the very literal nature of your words. We have a volunteer army. There is no violence, coercion, nor is it compulsory and the people who enlist do so for many various reasons, with lack of opportunity being only one of many.

I think we push the limit of reason when we create "victims" from people who are not. One it denies them the right of self determination and free choice, two concepts that cannot be lightly thrown aside, simply because you disagree with the lack of opportunities people have.

[HardWorkingDem]

13. Not claiming these people are "victims"...though....

ask yourself, how many people do you think would be in the military if there were equal opportunities for all when it comes to money for education, job security and health care? If citizen A had the chance as a young person to work for Bank A or Farm A for three years and Bank A and Farm A would provide college tuition money, just as the military, which route do you think most would take?

By not having these present (and with the needs of continuing to maintain a "voluntary" military, the government and private sector will never have an incentive to provide these things equally) it is more of compulsory volunteering than that of a choice.

[BoneDaddy]

22. People, everywhere, make these choices

everyday and they are often hard ones, but that does not mean that they are still not accountable to that choice. Compulsory volunteering is a contradiction in terms. It is either compulsory/coercion or it is not. I honestly have to say that it is still very much volunteer atm. Lack of opportunity does not equate to compulsory. It may mean alot of things that I am sure you and I agree with, but this is sadly, not one of them.

[ClassWarrior]

23. Naw, eating and feeding one's family isn't compulsory either.

And hey, if you choose that alternative, you thin the herd!! Brilliant!

:puke:

NGU.

[BoneDaddy]

24. You have to be kidding me

Stop with the victimization of everything and own your fucking choices in life without blaming someone else for the fact that life isn't as perfect as you think it should be.

[Totally Committed]

6. Is it really a "choice" if it's the only choice you have?

I've always thought that poor inner-city kids and/or kids of color were undereducated on purpose to guarantee they'd be good for nothing else than to be cannon-fodder. How else could you explain kids reading at a second-grade level and unable to do basic math being promoted every year and then graduated without the same skills as kids promoted and graduated in the affluent suburbs?

So, most of them graduate with three choices:

(1) Join a gang and end up in prison. The populations of our prisons and Death Row overwhelmingly are made up of men of color, some of whom are so undereducated they can't read.

(2) Work minimum wage jobs and never get out from under, maybe ending up living on the streets.

(3) Join the military where they are "promised" three square meals a day, medical care, a place to live, insurance coverage, retirement benefits, and maybe even a bonus to pay off existing debts.

Maybe you see that as "volunteering" for the military, but I call it coersion. Yes, it's a choice, but if the person wants "a life" it's probably their only choice.

Just a thought...

TC

[qwlauren35]

14. I think it's a hazy middle ground.

I have never liked how the military advertises itself as a route to job experience, how it glamorizes war with images of rappelling and flying helicopters, etc. I think the military has a tendency to appeal to certain individuals, who CHOOSE not to look beyond the false advertising.

However, I also know that for some, the environments from which they are coming from are no less risky. And for them, I actually wish they WOULD join the military, because I think too many of the choices being presented to them are worse.

I would add that one of the things many of us don't see is just how many men and women are NOT in Iraq or Afghanistan. I ran some numbers recently. Our military forces are all over the globe, many in peacekeeping positions. There are many young men and women who are not automatically heading for Iraq.

In the end, I think that those who find a "straight and narrow" route out of poverty are the exception, and not the rule. They are certainly commendable. But dismissing anyone who chooses the military as a sell-out is unmitigated crap. And dismissing the military as simply "those in Iraq" is a major oversimplication of the defense of our nation.

Part of our strength as a nation, and part of our global bartering power comes from our military. Don't get me wrong. I ***HATE*** this war. But I don't automatically condemn those who serve.

I would add that those who go into the military as chaplains, doctors and nurses and those who train as medics definitely do NOT deserve your scorn.

[MadHound]

15. It is a still a choice

Economic hardship isn't an excuse, it is a cop-out. After I graduated from high school my prospects didn't look very good. College was out, no money available. Thus it was either the work force, loans or the military. Being a pacifist, and seeing how our government uses our military in immoral, illegal conflicts, I refused to join. Instead, I worked my way through life, got by the hard way(including a couple of years being homeless in Reagan's America), and pulled myself up, getting a college education in fits and spurts, working hard and planning wisely. Now I own a house out in the country on twenty acres that I'm turning into an organic, heirloom orchard.

Was it easy? No, but my conscience is clean. I put in my public service in different ways, social work and firefighting, both volunteer. Even if you are poor, you don't have to join the military to get ahead in life. Is it tough, does it take some serious effort? Yes, but I would rather put in honest work than have the deaths of innocents on my conscience.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Don't expect many, especially the "purists"

to understand that we HAVE an economic draft

Their conscience is clean, as those people "volunteered."

What is more, many round these parts actually hate men in uniform, and increasingly women in uniform, this is the sad reality, and one that you will not get them to admit too often

This hate gives the people in uniform poor choices..

Republican, at least if they expand the armed forces I will be sucked up in the vacuum to higher ranks and better pay

Or

Democrat: many of the net roots hate my guts and will not doubtly tell me this

In reality, many of those in the net roots who hate the military come from both sides, and in their hate they are united. After all it was the poor boobs who volunteered and to hell with them

[ClassWarrior]

19. Wow, what a powerful frame. "Economic draft."

Excellent. Thanks nad. :hi:

NGU.

[Desertrose]

20. Yeah...I agree...great term..."economic draft"

and isn't the US of A all about economics anymore?

Peace
DR

[Thothmes]

27. Voluntary

I am not sure what your point is. First of all, opportunities are not now, nor have they ever been equally available to all Americans. People that mine coal, set chokers, roustabout, or haul garbage are all volunteers at their respective trades. They "volunteered" because they get paid for it. It is no different with the armed services. For many, employment in the armed services is one of the best deals available. As it currently exists, armed services are voluntary because you do not get a mandatory "Greetings from the President of the United States" notice thay you have been hired.

[Locrian]

28. ok

Suffice to say that although people do "volunteer" they are HEAVILY influenced by their economic condition. "Free will" and all that applies but with fewer options limited by the system, it sure begins to look like "not very free will".

Volunteer implies that you actually WANT to do something. How many would actually say they wanted to go into the military if their economic situation was different? Wouldn't we be seeing more rich kids in the military if economic need wasn't a prime motivator?

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. Then why do some poor people join and other don't?

And why do some people from middle class families join?

BTW, I joined, and I came from a middle class family.