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Stargazer99 Donating Member (943 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:04 AM
Original message
What the hell are US citizens thinking?
The British scientist that said Iraq had no WMD's committed "sucicide"
Bullet holes in the middle of Tillman's head (of course some small player will be sacrificed for this travisity)
Now Michael Moore is served legal papers for embarrassing corp America

This pisses me off to no end, it is frightening that "we the People" have so little control over our lives through Nazi like control of us. Doing these things in our name infuriates me to no end.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. That is a cogent, compelling list.
:kick: MKJ
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. How is different from right wing Clinton death lists? nt
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Each of these were actual events. That list was ???
MKJ
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Actual people that died
that some right wing CT was able to link (through some torturous logic and intense dislike for Clinton) to Clinton.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Uh huh. My point exactly. Tortuous logic. However, these are real events.
Pat Tillman's death, just now coming to light, with the Bush admin. claiming Executive Priviledge about what it knew and when about the circumstances of his death.

The Bush Admin. just served a subpeona to Michael Moore.

And, as far as David Kelly's death goes, I'll just post this little "tip of the iceberg" from Wiki and leave you to your own research.

Although suicide was officially accepted as the cause of death, some medical experts have raised doubts, suggesting that the evidence does not back this up. The most detailed objection was provided in a letter from three medical doctors published in the Guardian <7>, reinforced by support from two other senior physicians in a later letter to the Guardian <8>. These doctors argued that the autopsy finding of a transected ulnar artery could not have caused a degree of blood loss that would kill someone, particularly when outside in the cold (where vasoconstriction would slow blood loss). Further, this conflicted with the minimal amount of blood found at the scene. They also contended that the amount of co-proxamol found was only about a third of what would normally be fatal. Dr. Rouse, a British epidemiologist wrote to the BMJ pointing out that the act of committing suicide by severing wrist arteries is an extremely rare occurrence in a 59-year-old man with no previous psychiatric history.<9> Nobody else died from that cause during the year.

Dave Bartlett and Vanessa Hunt, the two paramedics who were called to the scene of Kelly's death, have since gone public with their view that there was not enough blood at the location to justify the belief that he died from blood loss. Bartlett and Hunt told the Guardian that they saw a small amount of blood on plants near Kelly's body and a patch of blood the size of a coin on his trousers. They said they would expect to find several pints of blood at the scene of a suicide involving an arterial cut.<4><5>



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly#Involvement_with_the_WMD_dossier

I hestitated to respond, due to my confusion regarding from which orifice your musings are emanating. :hi: MKJ
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
61. You just proved my point.
The Clinton death list were constructed with exactly the same logic and type of "facts".
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
82. Well, I cited a sourced AP article, you cited a website, somewhere.
You're funny. MKJ
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
85. self delete.
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 08:12 PM by BleedingHeartPatriot
(what an idiot)

MKJ
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. You're really bugged by Clinton aren't you?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. No
just by the fact that many here are doing to Bush what Freepers did to Clinton.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Oh my heaven forbid we tell the TRUTH about bush
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. So you have proof that Bush ordered Tillman's death?
or do you have a different understanding of what truth means?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Where the fck is that coming from?
I never said bush ordered Tillman's death,



yet :eyes:
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. But you will ...
because Bush is evil.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. bush is definitly evil that is for sure
and when I feel I have read enough to come to that conclusion you'll be the first to know
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. and is one to believe you do not believe bush is evil?
just curious
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Curiouser and curiouser, our little hack's responses become.
:-) MKJ
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. So is the Tillman story
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/28/AR2007072801396.html

"He never would have called me 'sniveling,'" O'Neal said. "I don't remember ever speaking to this chaplain, and I find this characterization of Pat really upsetting. He never once degraded me. He's the only person I ever worked for who didn't degrade anyone. He wasn't that sort of person."
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I just posted this, hadn't heard about it before. CBS Sportsline article 11/9/06.
After killing Tillman, at least one of the same Rangers turned his guns on a village where witnesses say civilian women and children had gathered. The shooters raked it with fire, the American witnesses said; they wounded two additional fellow Rangers, including their own platoon leader.



http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9789986/2


Lot's of unsettling questions in that article, one which the writers and AP are keeping out there.

MKJ
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. We should try and get all this in one place
maybe GD?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. So I am believe without proof that Bush
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 01:25 PM by hack89
murdered Tillman? And there is something wrong with that?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. no there is not but
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 01:31 PM by seemslikeadream
bush is evil


at least I think so

I believe he did have something to do with the what happened in New Orlean, Haiti and Iraq, just for starters
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Oh, so that's what you believe. Thanks for clarifying.
:hi: MKJ
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Don't put words in mouth ..
I don't believe that he is responsible for Tillman's death.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I'm asking you if you think bush is evil that's all
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. He's no Hitler or Stalin
I think the world will be a better and safer place with him out of office but I am hesitant to use the word evil simply because it cheapens the word. It is a word I use sparingly.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. The corporate capitalism he represents so well
is EVIL...

Now that's an appropriate use of the word...
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #54
66. Perhaps
but that does that necessarily make him evil? Because if it does, what about Hillery, Obama or any of the others that front for corporate capitalism?
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #66
90. That's why I won't vote for them either
Evil is Banal...

bush is Banal...

bush is Evil...


(I know, it's a fallacy, but it rolls off the tongue and resonates in the mind, don't it?)
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
58. Would you please watch this and then tell me he is not evil
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 04:53 PM by seemslikeadream
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1462040&mesg_id=1462040

and if you don't think an evil man allowed this to happen, well


What would you call these guys? pranksters?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. By your logic there are millions of evil people.
I tend to reserve that label for the worst of the worst. Do you doubt for a second you wouldn't find exactly the same sort of degradation in any American jail or prison? I do. The world is full of petty sadists - sometimes they rise to positions of great power. Perhaps we simply disagree on degrees of evil.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. ANY AMERICAN JAIL
You've really got to be kidding?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. So prison rape is not evil?
or only when done with non-Americans?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Of course not but
do you honestly think that's all that went on at Abu Grabe? I'm speechless
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. And what else do you think happens in American prison
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 05:25 PM by hack89
they are full of petty tyrants that torture, kill and degrade others.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. Human Rights Watch would disagree.
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 05:34 PM by hack89
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. You are putting me on now aren't you?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. I am enjoying you evasions,
I must admit. Keep on believing.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. What the fuck am I evading?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #63
73. You find me stuff like this going on in any American jail
You do know they were raping little boys?







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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Read what Human Rights Watch says
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #73
91. Now that many states are shoving
Edited on Mon Jul-30-07 01:41 PM by ProudDad
young kids in prison...

yes, little boys are being raped in prisons now -- not just in juvenile facilities like the "good old days"...

As for the rest, there's nothing that happened at Abu Graib that those "ex-prison guards" had to make up -- it's all been done at prisons in the good ole' U.S. of freakin' A.

The difference is that at Abu Graib they had the explicit okie-dokie from the very, very top. In U.S. prisons the lower downs have to "get" what their superiors imply...


On Edit: From that brilliant article at HRW:

"When the news about Abu Ghraib broke, the Bush administration tried to suggest it was the work of a few rogue officers. But in over two decades of monitoring prisons in the United States and around the world, Human Rights Watch has learned that abusive officers do not operate in a vacuum. More typically, a culture of brutality has developed in which correctional officers know they can get away with excessive, unnecessary, or even purely malicious violence. In such prisons, senior officials have failed to communicate unequivocally—through training, staff supervision, investigations, and discipline—that abuse will not be tolerated.

"The failures of senior prison officials in the United States are compounded, as in Abu Ghraib, by the absence of external scrutiny. Prisons are closed institutions from which the press, human rights groups, and members of the public are typically excluded. Independent expert inspections yielding public findings are rare, and usually occur only after the situation has become so bad that inmates have filed a lawsuit.

"Perhaps if photos or videotapes of abuse in U.S. prisons were to circulate publicly, Americans would be galvanized to protest such treatment as they have the treatment of Iraqi prisoners. Absent such graphic and unavoidable evidence, it is all too likely that abuse will continue to be a part of many prison sentences."

That's what I saw, the banality of Evil in the prisons and jails...
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
55. I don't believe he is evil
Dim and slow witted sure, but not evil........There are very few evil figures in history and Bush has to do a lot more to make the evil list.......
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. This is just not evil enough for you?
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 05:00 PM by seemslikeadream


New Orleans





Haiti






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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #59
79. Somehow I fail to see what
Lyndy england did being Bush's fault.......I was in Iraq then, I heard how it went down........

Katrina was extreme dimson in action and Haiti......Who gives a frak.........

Now please flood me with more pictures that have no meaning without context or call me stupid again, I so enjoyed it the first time.......
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #55
84. evil means "no conscience." Therefore, * is evil.
and I beg to differ with you, there have been very many "evil figures in history" and there are plenty at the present time. A great number. More than "several."
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. Oh he has a conscience
just because it doesn't align with ours doesn't mean it doesn't exist.......And as for history there have been less than 100 truly evil figures in Earth's history.......Most people can be explained by psychology thus not making them evil.......
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. bush is a sociopath
"The main characteristic of a sociopath is a disregard for the rights of others. Sociopaths are also unable to conform to what society defines as a normal personality. Antisocial tendencies are a big part of the sociopath’s personality. This pattern usually comes into evidence around the age of 15. If it is not treated, it can develop into adulthood.

"Visible symptoms include physical aggression and the inability to hold down a steady job. The sociopath also finds it hard to sustain relationships and shows a lack of regret in his or her actions. A major personality behavior trait is the violation of the rights of others. This can appear as a disregard for the physical or sexual wellbeing of another.

"Although these symptoms are all present, they may not always be evident. Research has shown that the sociopath is usually a person with an abundance of charm and wit. He or she may appear friendly and considerate, but these attributes are usually superficial. They are used as a way of blinding the other person to the personal agenda behind the sociopath’s behaviour."


These characteristics fit him to a "T"!!!
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Stargazer99 Donating Member (943 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. Do you really think Bush's *ss would not be covered
by a lower player not being sacrificed. That Brooklyn bridge would be a good buy for you. Just how gullable are you?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. It's not like they have tried to cover anything like this up before
:hi:

It would be too small a thing to worry about :eyes:

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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
45. Bush may not have ordered Tillman's death...
...but by claiming "executive privilege" in the releasing of documents pertinent to the case to show what is happening is still criminal. Bush is covering up and obstructing a criminal investigation by doing this. This alone is an impeachable offense.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. The difference...Freepers were upset about a consensual blow job, DU'er are upset by treason.
MKJ
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. Not really ..
many freepers believe Clinton was a traitor that sold secrets to the Chinese and was intimately involved in drug running. His failings with Monica simply reinforced their opinions on his moral character.

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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Maybe so...
...but he was impeached because he lied about a blow job!!! His "moral character" and failings should have been between him, his family and his God. Bush's crimes are numerous and much, much more serious. What don't you understand about this??
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. I understand that making up shit
just because we think Bush is evil is stupid.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. What's with the "we" sh**?
:hi: MKJ
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. What are we "making up??"
I, for one, am not advocating the theory that Bush had anything to do with Tillman's murder, but we are not "making up" the fact that he is covering it up for some nefarious reason by invoking "executive privilege" in order to hide something. What is he covering up/hiding?? That's my question.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. I am addressing the murder meme.
There are many on this board ready to accuse him of murder with no facts what-so-ever.

I believe he is hiding the fact that he manipulated Tillman's death for crass political purposes - maybe even interfered with the Army's investigation.
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #64
80. Ok, but you were replying to my post and nowhere did I accuse Bush of murder
Get your shit straight!!
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #64
86. Oh, all he did was cover up what he knew and interfered with the Army's investigation , your words.
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 08:15 PM by BleedingHeartPatriot
Yet, you dismiss this as if it's nothing.

Clinton's blow job, or "moral failing" as you call it, is worthy of your full frontal attack though.

may I say, LOL, :rofl:

Clinton's penis holds much interest for you, no doubt.
MKJ
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
94. Hmmm ... I thought you reserved "evil" for the likes of Hitler and Stalin.
Now you're putting Junior in that category? Which is it? Evil or just stupid?

I think you're either (a) putting us on, or (b) showing your true colors.

Bake
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. They are rather ignorant, aren't they? That sounds just like the natterings of Limbaugh who exploits
their simple minds. MKJ
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
68. Good thing that there are no simple minds
in the progressive world, right?
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #68
81. I agree with you on that one. I'm grateful for that, as well.
MKJ
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. The logic is the same
just like freepers make made themselves look stupid by linking Clinton to over a hundred "suspicious" deaths and to drug runners, there are some here that are more then willing to do the same with Bush. Bush has committed enough real crimes without the loony tune conspiracies.
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pepperbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I think the Tillman issue is more than just suspicious.....
you have the testimony of medical experts: it couldn't have happened the way they aid it did.

you have motive: he was anti war and was going to tell people about it.

you have the fact that at the very least, there are admitted discrepencies in the official story.

you have his parents: they won't let it go away.

No, this needs to be investigated, Not "Clinton-ated".

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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. All very true
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 12:26 PM by hack89
but no reason to believe that Bush was responsible for his death. More likely is that they are hiding the fact that they shamelessly used his death for crass political ends - to include manipulating the investigation. Bush knows the public would not forgive him for that.

It should be investigated - it is the "murder" meme that I have trouble with.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. Loony tune to say that Bush invoked Executive Priviledge to hide what he knew about Tillman's death?
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 01:09 PM by BleedingHeartPatriot
Which is exactly what he did.

Your tighty whiteys are in quite the twist. MKJ
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
49. I think he has something to hide
just not murder. He is hiding just how blatantly he used Tillman's death for political purposes.

I'm a boxer kind of guy.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. You seem to have some kind of inside knowledge. Do tell.
MKJ
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. No - just common sense. nt
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #60
83. Oh, then you were, yet again, speaking from the nether regions of your
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 08:10 PM by BleedingHeartPatriot
physical habitus.

MKJ
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. yea
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
56. Why do people focus on the wrong things too often?
If one side does something illegal, the other side points out something the other did illegal, so what is the point in this. Both sides are corrupt, if you except that you may be able to help open peoples minds to it and help stop all the illegal actions by both sides of our government! Instead we only play in to the governments hands and destroy each other, while they make it look as if they hate each other but laugh at us and continue to enjoy the America that they own and control, while we get to live in the other America. You know the one with the un fare justice system, poverty, crime, no gated community to live in, lack of funds for our local areas, many people on prescription drugs becasue their lives are just full of stress and misery, working ourselves to death to make a living while many kids run the streets and are taught by their controlled media. Hmmm, wonder why our health is down in our America and our children cant get enough time with their parents for guidance and all the things people say everyones not doing.

If we could all open our minds a little and look past the division, we could accomplish more and maybe even get control of our country before it destroys itself!
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #56
88. Well, the country didn't go to sh** nearly as quickly. as with the Repubs, so I'll take my
chances with the Democrats.

Six years of absolute Repub power has been some nasty stuff. MKJ

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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. I agree, I support the Dem's as well!
I just hope people dint get blinded by that fact and get complacent when the Dem's take power or control, whatever you want to call it, both can be abused. The Rep. party has went so far and abused so many things, I sometimes think people automatically connect corrupt government with only them.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
2. A better question would be
Do US citizens think?
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. What are Americans thinking about right now?
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Will Lindsay Lohan go to jail?
:crazy:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. Well, US citizens are not "the borg." They have a variety of opinions on issues.
Just because the corporate media doesn't report this diversity of opinion does not mean that it does not exist.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Thank You. nt
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
93. US citizens are not "the borg."
Edited on Mon Jul-30-07 01:38 PM by ProudDad
???

Prove it.

The rest of the world believes they are...

In the macrocosm, I do too.

The majority diversity of opinion ranges from the fascist right to the capitalist "center right"...

Socially, they're liberal but not enough to do anything about it...
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. Oh, nonsense.
The "rest of the world" does NOT believe that. They aren't stupid, either. Many foreigners know more about US history than the average American.

They also realize that, right now, we have an asshole in charge. They understand our system gives us a shot at unloading the asshole every four years. They also understand corrupt politics (everyone has their share) as well as the strength of incumbency, and they actually DO take note of the makeup of our Congress when their diplomatic teams get ready to do business with us.

If they thought we were a bunch of hopeless Bushbots, they wouldn't continue to associate with us--we aren't the only economic game in town anymore. Their enthusiasm grows daily, as they sense we're going to unload that worthless sack of shit at the top and get down to sensible relations once more. I'm looking forward to it, myself. Oh, happy day!

Some see the glass as half empty, others, half full. You're not seeing anything, at all, and you need a new glass and maybe new glasses, too. When you tilt so far left you fall off the barstool, I guess anyone looks as though they're a rightie to you.

Life's way too short to be so fucking negative, IMO. You can go through life trying to change things, being hopeful, walking in the path of MLK and RFK, believing that many people ARE good at heart, or you can go through life seeing the absolute worst, always and forever.

Either way, no matter what path you take, you're still gonna end up dead. The first way, though, is a bit more fun--both for you and those around you.

YMMV, and I suspect does.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. I've been to a lot of "the rest of the world"
Edited on Mon Jul-30-07 03:56 PM by ProudDad
The average resident of the rest of the industrialized world does know much more about American history than the average USAmerican does.

They also know that the USAmerican people are so fucking dumbed down and asleep that they could allow a coup to happen and not even know it.

They understand that the "asshole in charge" is OUR "asshole in charge" -- we, the collective we, are so fucking numb that we allowed him to steal the government. The "we" that allowed him to do it are the other member of the tag team, the Dems. They know that, too.

The dying empire that is the U.S. is STILL the major player in the world, if only by "virtue" of the fact that they have the biggest war machine and can therefore cause the most damage...

They know that the corporate capitalist masters rule this country through their surrogates from the Dem and repuke parties. They know that the USAmerican citizen is as oblivious to that fact as the average Roman was of the rape and pillage of the known world carried out in their name by the Legions of Rome.


MLK and RFK wouldn't have been shot in today's world. They would have been so marginalized they would never have been heard. There would have been plenty today to tell them that they've "tilt(ed) so far left <they've> fall(en) off the barstool".

I do believe that people are good at heart. But, I am also realistic enough and have studied and viewed history enough to realize that the systems in place for the last 20,000 years have rendered that fact irrelevant...
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Well, I have lived more than half of my very long life outside the USA.
I've been shot at during a major change in governments. I've lived in stable nations, too.

And I know that my experience with populations of the nations where I resided varies greatly from yours--in fact, my experience is diametrically opposed to yours. Most people like Americans, even when they don't like their government. And even when they do. And they don't see us as fucking numb, they see us as victims of corruption, and they know how that can happen.

In my experience, many people don't find this place so onerous that they wouldn't turn down an opportunity to live here, even with our present difficulties and idiot Boyking.

I am more optimistic than you are. I think our future can be bright, and we will have a better tomorrow. My glass is as least half full, and here comes the waiter with the pitcher.....

You might want to take a break if this shit gets you so miserable. It's just not healthy to be so down in the dumps like that.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Well, like I said
Edited on Mon Jul-30-07 07:50 PM by ProudDad
My glass is nearly Always half full (sometimes even more) in my day to day life. My interactions with people in the regular world are nearly always pleasant and if not pleasant, mostly amusing.

But...in the macrocosm, after a rather long life filled with lots of political activity with some minor victories but overall crushing defeats, resulting in an apparent retrogression of society rather than progress, my optimism remains undimmed but my cynicism is at an all time high...

My experience has been that most people "liked USAmericans" too, they just couldn't understand why our politics is so fucking stupid... I was unable to entirely explain it to them either. They lack the points of reference.

In Europe especially, they just couldn't understand...had no internal vocabulary...for a people who could appear to be compassionate and yet allow a huge proportion of their fellow citizens to be un-housed, underfed, dispised and ignored.

I have a vision of how the Earth could be but probably never will now that global Climate change is poised to take out the whole experiment. And that's ok, that doesn't really bum me out. Nature always wins. Another experiment in life will take our place and maybe...they'll succeed.

Meanwhile, the optimist in me keeps playing the game...

Cheers :hi:
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
100. Another View of USAmericans
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
9. What's it going to take for us all to stand up and say NO MORE!! n/t
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
11. US citizens aren't doing it, of course
A band of internationalists who hate US citizens is.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
12. As someone said in that brilliant, outstanding article on indymedia:
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 11:41 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2005/07/317436.pdf?page=7

They are not fighting against terrorists; they are fighting against citizens. It's why they're digging their heels in about the election machines, of course.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
19. Here's some truth about bush
http://www.oneplanetonenation.com/cgi-bin/news/newsscript.pl?record=21



31 Similarities Between Hitler and George W. Bush
By Edward Jayne

When President Bush decided to invade Iraq, his spokesmen began comparing Saddam Hussein to Adolph Hitler, the most monstrous figure in modern history. Everybody was therefore shocked when a high German bureaucrat turned the tables by comparing Bush himself with Hitler. As to be expected, she (the bureaucrat) was forced to resign because of her extreme disrespect for an American president. However, the resemblance sticks--there are too many similarities to be ignored, some of which may be listed here.



1. Like Hitler, President Bush was not elected by a majority, but was forced to engage in political maneuvering in order to gain office.

2. Like Hitler, Bush began to curtail civil liberties in response to a well-publicized disaster, in Hitler’s case the Reichstag fire, in Bush’s case the 9-11 catastrophe.

3. Like Hitler, Bush went on to pursue a reckless foreign policy without the mandate of the electorate and despite the opposition of most foreign nations.

4. Like Hitler, Bush has increased his popularity with conservative voters by mounting an aggressive public relations campaign against foreign enemies. Just as Hitler cited international communism to justify Germany’s military buildup, Bush has used Al Qaeda and the so-called Axis of Evil to justify our current military buildup. Paradoxically none of the nations in this axis--Iraq, Iran and North Korea--have had anything to do with each other.

5. Like Hitler, Bush has promoted militarism in the midst of economic recession (or depression as it was called during the thirties). First he used war preparations to help subsidize defense industries (Halliburton, Bechtel, Carlyle Group, etc.) and presumably the rest of the economy on a trickle-down basis. Now he turns to the very same corporations to rebuild Iraq, again without competitive bidding and at extravagant profit levels.

6. Like Hitler, Bush displays great populist enthusiasm in his patriotic speeches, but primarily serves wealthy investors who subsidize his election campaigns and share with him their comfortable lifestyle. As he himself jokes, he treats these individuals at the pinnacle of our economy as his true political “base.”

7. Like Hitler, Bush envisages our nation’s unique historic destiny almost as a religious cause sanctioned by God. Just as Hitler did for Germany, he takes pride in his “providential” role in spreading his version of Americanism throughout the entire world.

8. Like Hitler, Bush promotes a future world order that guarantees his own nation’s hegemonic supremacy rather than cooperative harmony under the authority of the United Nations (or League of Nations).

9. Like Hitler, Bush quickly makes and breaks diplomatic ties, and he offers generous promises that he soon abandons, as in the cases of Mexico, Russia, Afghanistan, and even New York City. The same goes for U.S. domestic programs. Once Bush was elected, many leaders of these programs learned to dread his making any kind of an appearance to praise their success, since this was almost inevitably followed by severe cuts in their budgets.

10. Like Hitler, Bush scraps international treaties, most notably the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the Biological Weapons Convention, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, the Convention on the Prohibition of Land Mines, the Chemical Weapons Convention, the Kyoto Global Warming Accord, and the International Criminal Court.

11. Like Hitler, Bush repeats lies often enough that they come to be accepted as the truth. Bush and his spokesmen argued, for example, that they had taken every measure possible to avoid war, than an invasion of Iraq would diminish (not intensify) the terrorist threat against the U.S., that Iraq was linked with Al Qaeda, and that nothing whatsoever had been achieved by U.N. inspectors to warrant the postponement of U.S. invasion plans. All of this was false. They also insisted that Iraq hid numerous weapons it did not possess since the mid-190s, and they refused to acknowledge the absence of a nuclear weapons program in Iraq since the early nineties. As perhaps to be expected, they indignantly accused others of deception and evasiveness.

12. Like Hitler, Bush incessantly shifted his arguments to justify invading Iraq--from Iraq’s WMD threat to the elimination of Saddam Hussein, to his supposed Al Qaeda connection, to the creation of Iraqi democracy in the Middle East as a model for neighboring states, and back again to the WMD threat. As soon as one excuse for the war was challenged, Bush advanced to another, but only to shift back again at another time.

13. Like Hitler, Bush and his cohorts emphasize the ruthlessness of their enemies in order to justify their own. Just as Hitler cited the threat of communist violence to justify even greater violence on the part of Germany, the bush team justified the invasion of Iraq by emphasizing Hussein’s crimes against humanity over the past twenty-five years. However, these crimes were for the most part committed when Iraq was a client-ally of the U.S. Our government supplied Hussein with illegal weapons (poison gas included), and there were sixty U.S. advisors in Iraq when these weapons were put to use (see NY Times, Aug. 18, 1992). U.S. aid to Iraq was actually doubled afterwards despite disclaimers from Washington that our nation opposed their use. President Reagan’s special envoy Donald Rumsfeld personally informed Hussein of this one hundred percent increment during one of his two trips to Iraq at the time. He also told Hussein not to take U.S. disclaimers seriously.

14. Like Hitler, Bush takes pride in his status as a “War President,” and his global ambition makes him perhaps the most dangerous president in our nation’s history, a “rogue” chief executive capable of waging any number of illegal preemptive wars. He fully acknowledges his willingness to engage in wars of “choice” as well as wars of necessity. Sooner or later this choice will oblige universal conscription as well as a full-scale war economy.

15. Like Hitler, Bush continues to pursue war without cutting back on the peacetime economy. Additional to unprecedented low interest rates bestowed by the Federal Reserve, he has actually cut federal taxes twice by substantial amounts, especially for the top one percent of U.S. taxpayers, while conducting an expensive invasion and an even more expensive occupation of a hostile nation. As a result, President Clinton’s $350 billion budget surplus has been reduced to a $450 billion deficit, comprising an unprecedented $800 billion decline in less than four years. At the same time the U.S. dollar has steadily dropped against currencies of both Europe and Japan.

16. Like Hitler, Bush possesses a war machine much bigger and more effective than the military capabilities of other nations. With the extra financing obliged by the defeat and occupation of Iraq, Bush now relies on a “defense” budget well in excess of the combined military expenditures of the rest of the world. Moreover, the $416 billion defense package passed last week by Congress will probably need to be supplemented before the end of the year.

17. Like Hitler, bush depends on an axis of collaborative allies, which he describes as a “coalition of the willing,” in order to give the impression of a broad popular alliance. These allies include the U.K. as compared to Mussolini’s Italy, and Spain and Bulgaria, as compared to, well, Spain and Bulgaria, both of which were aligned with Germany during the thirties and World War II. As a result of their cooperation, Prime Minister Blair’s diplomatic reputation has been ruined in England, and a surprising election defeat has produced an unfriendly government in Spain. The Philippines have withdrawn their troops from Iraq to save the life of a hostage, and other defections can be expected in the near future.

18. Like Hitler, Bush is willing to go to war over the objections of the U.N. (League of Nations). His Iraq invasion was illegal and therefore a war crime as explained by Articles 41 and 42 of the U.N. Charter, which require two votes, not one, by the Security Council before any state takes such an action. First a vote is needed to explore all possibilities short of warfare (in Iraq’s case through the use of U.N. inspectors), and once this has been shown to be fruitless, a second vote is needed to permit military action. U.S. and U.K. delegates at the Security Council prevented this second vote once it was plain they lacked a majority. This was because other nations on the Security Council were satisfied with the findings of U.N. inspectors that no weapons of mass destruction had yet been found. Minus this second vote, the invasion was illegal. Bush also showed in the process that he has no qualms about bribing, bullying, and insulting U.N. members, even tapping their telephone lines. This was done with undecided members of the Security Council as well as the U.N. Secretary General when the U.S.-U.K. resolution was debated preceding the invasion.

19. Like Hitler, Bush launches unilateral invasions on a supposedly preemptive basis. Just as Hitler convinced the German public to think of Poland as a threat to Germany in 1939 (for example in his Sept. 19 speech), Bush wants Americans to think of Iraq as having been a “potential” threat to our national security--indeed as one of the instigators of the 9-11 attack despite a complete lack of evidence to support this claim.

20. Like Hitler, Bush depends on a military strategy that features a “shock and awe” blitzkrieg beginning with devastating air strikes, then an invasion led by heavy armored columns.

21. Like Hitler, Bush is willing to inflict high levels of bloodshed against enemy nations. Between 20,000 and (more probably) 37,000 are now estimated to have been killed, as much as a ro-1 kill ratio compared to the more than 900 Americans killed. In other words, for every U.S. fatality, probably as many as forty Iraqi have died.

22. Like Hitler, Bush is perfectly willing to sacrifice life as part of his official duty. This would be indicated by the unprecedented number of prisoners executed during his service as governor of Texas. Under no other governor in the history of the United States were so many killed.

23. Like Hitler, Bush began warfare on a single front (Al Qaeda quartered in Afghanistan), but then expanded it to a second front with Iraq, only to be confronted with North Korea and Iran as potential third and fourth fronts. Much the same thing happened to Hitler when he advanced German military operations from Spain to Poland and France, then was distracted by Yugoslavia before invading the USSR in 1941. Today, bush seems prevented by the excessive costs of the Iraqi debacle from going to war elsewhere if reelected, but not through any lack of desire.

24. Like Hitler, Bush has no qualms about imposing “regime change” by installing Quisling-style client governments backed by a U.S. military occupation with both political and economic control entirely in the hands of Americans. It is no surprise that Iyad Alawi, Iraq’s current temporary prime minister, was once affiliated with the CIA and has been reliably reported by the Australian press to have executed six hooded prisoners with a handgun to their heads just a day or two before his appointment a couple weeks ago.

25. Like Hitler, Bush curtails civil liberties in captive nations and depends on detention centers (i.e., concentration camps) such as a Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and any number of secret interrogation centers across the world. Prisoners at the camps go unidentified and have no legal rights as ordinarily guaranteed by the Geneva Conventions. They have also been detained indefinitely (for 2 ½ years already at Guantanamo Bay), though there is mounting evidence that many are innocent of what they have been charged--some, for example, having been randomly seized by Northern Alliance troops in Afghanistan for an automatic bounty from U.S. commanders. Moreover, many Iraqi prisoners have been tortured, in many instances just short of death. Recent U.S. documents disclose that as many twenty have died while being tortured, and twenty others have died under unusual circumstances yet to be determined.

26. Like Hitler, Bush uses the threat of enemies abroad to stir the fearful allegiance of the U.S. public. For example, he features public announcements of possible terrorist attacks in order to override embarrassing news coverage. He also uses the threat of terrorism to justify extraordinary domestic powers granted by the Patriot Act. Even the books we check out of public libraries can be kept on record by federal agents.

27. Like Hitler, Bush depends on a propaganda machine to guarantee sympathetic news management. In Hitler’s case news coverage was totally dominated by Goebbels; in Bush’s case reporters have been almost totally “imbedded” by both military spokesmen and wealthy media owners sympathetic with Bush. The most obvious case is the Fox news channel, owned and controlled by Rupert Murdoch. Not surprisingly, recent polls indicate that the majority of Fox viewers still think Hussein played a role in the 9-11 attack.

28. Like Hitler, Bush increasingly reduces the circle of aides he feels he can trust as his policies keep boomeranging at his own expense. Just as Hitler ended up isolated in his headquarters, with few individuals granted access, Bush is now said to be limiting access primarily to Attorney General Ashcroft (who also talks with God on a regular basis) as well as Karl Rove, the Vice President, Karen Hughes, and a few others. Both Secretary of State Powell and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld are now said to be out of the loop.

29. Like Hitler, Bush has become obsessed with his vision of conflict between good (U.S. patriotism) and evil (anti-Americanism. Many in contact with the White House are said to be worried that he is beginning to lose touch with reality--perhaps resulting from the use of medication that seriously distorts his judgment. Possibly symptomatic of this concern is the increasing number of disaffected government officials who leak embarrassing documents.

30. Like Hitler, bush takes pleasure in the mythology of frontier justice. As a youth Hitler read and memorized the western novels of Karl May, and Bush retains into his maturity his fascination with simplistic cowboy values. He also exaggerates a cowboy twang despite his C-average elitist education at Andover, Yale, and Harvard.

31. Like Hitler, Bush misconstrues Darwinism, in Hitler’s case by treating the Aryan race as being superior on an evolutionary basis, in Bush’s case by rejecting science for fundamentalist creationism.

The resemblances listed here are striking, especially since Bush’s first term in office must be compared with Hitler’s performance as German Chancellor through the year 1937, preceding the chain of events immediately preceding World War II. In any case, George W. Bush seems the worst and most dangerous U.S. president in recent memory if not in the entire history of the United States.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
23. my theory is that
too many of us are NOT thinking. denial runs deep, and we're all just trying to make a living.

my son just got back from spending a couple weeks with my sister (with whom i cannot discuss current events). he tells me she and her husband regularly watch fox news, which i cannot stomach. my older brother too. not a clue.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
41. Bush and his few remaining supporters keep lying and ...
... hiding the facts. U.S. citizens don't have the wherewithal to be able to question everything that comes from their president. They are supposed to be able to trust and verify their president, but Bush has made it impossible to do either.

The people are the people. They are getting it -- way to slowly, but they are getting it. Even now, some of Bush's remaining supporters are starting to see that their trust was misplaced, and that the lack of accountability Bush has institutionalized won't seem so good when we have a Dem president. In fact, if they are honest with themselves it is not good now.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
47. MM may have violated some rule about traveling to Cuba?
I'm afraid they might have him on that.

Though of course that's the type of rule that is made for the purpose of political harassment. The citizenry lets is pass figuring it will never apply to them.

I wish the people would get a clue - just because something doesn't affect them personally and immediately doesn't mean it can't have a deleterious effect overall.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
53. US Citizens and thinking are mutually exclusive. We don't like to think
it makes our heads hurt and we start to feel all yucky inside. It is just so much easier to be told what to believe by an expert.

Ooo look! Nicole Richie has to go to jail for 4 whole days! Do you think Liev Schreiber is really the father of Naomi Watts baby? The new Lexus is really nice, I wish I could get me one of them. I heard The Simpsons Movie isn't really that funny...



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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
62. We need information to form opinions.
With all the crappy information out there, it's hard to sift through the crap. Most people don't have the time or patience, so they take the message that's marketed to them and go with it.

Garbage in, garbage out.
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BornagainDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
77. So when are the fascisti going to serve papers to the people MM took to Cuba
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 05:55 PM by BornagainDUer
seeking treatment?

That would really set off the fireworks.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Moore got served today
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BornagainDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-30-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #78
98. My dreams aren't
happy ones these days. :scared:
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