Michael Moore Is A God. Gupta Should Burn In Hell.

[MannyGoldstein]

I just saw SiCKO. It is absolutely fantastic. Brilliant.

I've been studying international health care for a decade or so. Not only does Moore absolutely, positively not fudge the facts, it actually understates the gap between US health care and that of every other industrialized nation. For example, I don't think that Moore ever mentions in SiCKO that, as fucked up as our health care is, we spend more per health care, per person, then any other country in the world - twice as much, on average, as do other industrialized countries!

As it happens, I saw it with a friend who is one of the world's top doctors in his specialty - professor at a prestigious teaching hospital, editor of a top medical journal, etc. He did not disagree one bit with anything in the movie.

Sanjay Gupta and CNN should be absolutely ashamed of their utterly bogus attack on Moore - they are simply enabling awful, expensive, and highly-rationed health care in this country. Many, many people will suffer and die because of this crap that passes for journalism. Do they think this is some sort of cute game?

I'll not be watching CNN again if I can help it. And I'll let their advertisers know that I'll avoid their products, and I'll ask friends and family to do the same.

[Rosemary2205]

1. What am I missing?

I saw the CNN piece and saw those 2 on Larry King -- they seem to be fighting over small little details not whether we need a massive overhaul of our healthcare delivery system. The piece I saw on CNN did not disgree with the overall premise of the movie at all.

Was there something else I missed because I'm thinking this big fight they are having is cooked up hype to get more people out to see the movie. (which isn't really a bad thing)

[Luminous Animal]

5. Missing big time.

What you are missing is that Sanjay is seeing the trees to obscure of the forest. He is purposely misrepresenting the facts in order to divert our attention from the topic at hand. That being, we are the only modern industrial nation that does not guarantee health care.

[zalinda]

6. Moore was pissed that Gupta said that Moore had

fudged the facts. CNN had raked F9/11 over the coals, and it turned out that Moore was right. He was just trying to be as nit picky as they have been over his movies. He wanted to get the first strikes in, and he didn't want to give them an inch.

BTW, it's been posted here that Gupta had the real facts before the piece was put together and before the interview. He chose to ignore them.

zalinda

[liberalla]

16. You got it!

"He wanted to get the first strikes in, and he didn't want to give them an inch."

AND, he didn't want to be edited! He got it all out there live. Beautiful!

[JDPriestly]

29. Rosemary 2205 Here is what you are missing:

Gupta's critique was an initial blow in a planned campaign to discredit Sicko with the talking point: "Oh, I heard it was inaccurate." That is a the way the MSM and their corporate sponsors want to discourage people who might otherwise go see the film from doing so. That is what you are missing.

[Bread and Circus]

42. Very well stated. Perfect analysis of the "meme" cnn is trying to spread.

[Tom Joad]

2. I agree with Michael, and disagree with gupta... but do we have to get religious here?

even if it was meant metaphorically.
just kind of over the top a bit.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Thousands Die Each Year

Think 9/11 was bad? Tens of thousands of Americans die each year directly from lack of medical insurance. Given that Americans live years less than people in other industrialized countries, there are probably hundreds of thousands of premature deaths in the US each year, and untold needless suffering, all so that a few insurance execs and politicians can stick a few shekels in their pockets.

That Gupta and CNN would make up absolute lies out of whole cloth in order to enable this awful stuff is criminal. And, like our health care system itself, it should not be tolerated. This is a big, big deal.

[tsuki]

37. MM stated 18,000 per year, or six 9/11's. Rather clever of him. n/t

[goodgd_yall]

36. Oh, please.

Don't be so literalist. She's having a moment of passion; it's just an expression.

[ProudDad]

4. The irony is that the Gupta piece

had a good beginning and a good tag; that the U.S. should be ashamed of their inferior "health care" system.

EVERYTHING in the middle was full of misstatements, right-wing spin and outright lies... Thus Michael Moore's anger when he had his chance to talk...

I don't think Gupta should "burn in <the no such thing as a place like> hell" but he should apologize for allowing his name to be used on a hit piece of no substance...

[mzmolly]

7. Gupta is not a villan, in fact he's a Democrat. BUT, Moore and CNN

are loving the publicity. ;) I love Michael and I'm on his side on this issue, but Gupta is human and his report wasn't that "off."

Flame on folks. Glad you liked the film Manny, I'm planning to see it next weekend.

[MannyGoldstein]

8. Let's Keep It Simple...

Which part of Gupta's report was not utter falsehood or functional dissembling? I can't think of a single thing, but perhaps my memory is failing.

[mzmolly]

12. Oh Cmon, I'm not going over the entire transcript with you now just to nit pick.

He and Moore used different data. They were in slight disagreement. Gupta used 'gotcha' language and it rightfully pissed Moore off.

I'm not going to take up the "Gupta" cause here, I'm just saying wishing the man dead is a bit over the top?

Moore is getting great publicity as is CNN, as I've said. It's a win/win. Glad you liked the film.

[western mass]

14. Gupta IS a villain, and a corporate propagandist

There are many ways to lie. One of them is to selectively focus on facts in a way that promotes a deceptive and misleading understanding of the larger truth.

For example, pointing out that Cuba ranks lower on the list than the USA (fact) is used to imply that MM is omitting something that undercuts his argument (false - the fact that the US barely tops a poor, third-world nation *supports" MM's case) and that the US system isn't so bad (false - again for the same reason: it's a travesty that one of the wealthiest, most technologically advanced nations in the world can barely top Cuba)

One can also lie by omission. Pointing out that US ranks near best in wait times for elective surgery deceives by omission in two ways. First, it puts the importance of this in par with more crucial facts, like wait times to see a doctor for basic care. Second, it omits the very critical information that US wait times are as good as they are because the US system simply doesn't allow a large proportion of the population to "get in line" in the first place.

Finally, the favorite RW tactic, one can mislead through misdirection & obfuscation. The intent of the hit piece is to make people doubt MM's overall thesis (which is essentially and inarguably true - the US health care system is the worst in the industrialized world for $ spent) by quibbling over minor (and misleading) details and promoting the sense that MM fudges facts.

Sure Gupta is a "democrat"...just like Bill O'Reilly is an "independent".

Gupta = liar.

[sandnsea]

20. He had to reach on that report

When he complained about the numbers between the US and Cuba, tsk tsk, Cuba is 39th, lower than the US!! And they don't spend $25 a person, oh my god, they spend $251!!

Considering the very serious subject of the movie, anybody who nitpicks "errors" like these has an ulterior motive. It's a lie and if he doesn't know that he is feeding the political manipulation machine, he's a fool who shouldn't be listened to anyway.

There are a bunch of Democrats at DU who support Hillary. It is beyond my comprehension that anybody could support Hillary, considering they refuse to acknowledge their policies had serious faults and have caused harm to many people. Considering she was the architect of the IWR strategy and has taken forever to support changing course. There are clearly Democrats who I have nothing in common with.

I'd like to know why he chose to nitpick instead of care for people, the way a doctor is supposed to.

[mzmolly]

21. I imagine he was given an assignment to fact check. He got info from his producers

and regurgitated it. As I've said, I'm not defending Gupta, I'm just not vilifying him. Feel free to do so if you like.

[sandnsea]

23. He has no personal ethics

and just regurgitates as told. I see. Nothing to criticize there. :eyes:

I don't even watch CNN, but the guy was wrong in this instance and it's perfectly reasonable to challenge him on it.

[mzmolly]

24. Where did I say it's unreasonable to challenge/criticize him?

I just refuse to make him the demon du jour.

The statements Moore made about the WAR and the media abdicating it's duty to report on IT before people were sent to their deaths in the desert are much more compelling than his quibble with Gupta.

Again, feel free to make me out to be a defender of the corporate media. I just know a good PR campaign when I see it.

I'll say again, that Gupta has contributed financially to Democrats not Republicans, and he agrees with Moore on the greater issues. I'm personally done discussing Dr. Gupta.

[sandnsea]

25. It's the same problem

Gupta abdicating his duty to report accurately on medical care is exactly the same as "the media" abdicating its duty before the war. Michael Moore made it quite clear. I guess you missed it.

[mzmolly]

26. "I guess you misssed it."

Save the drama.

[sandnsea]

27. Gupta or CNN

One of them ordered a false report to distort Michael Moore's findings. I guess that's only "dramatic" if you have nothing at stake in the outcome of health care reform.

Michael Moore sometimes fudges his facts. But in this instance, the so-called fudging is nitpicking and there's only one reason to do it, to distort the debate for the benefit of the health care industry.

It's been done so many times for so many corporations, I can't believe you'd call it a PR stunt. Unless, like I say, you've got nothing at stake in the outcome.

[mzmolly]

28. Gupta and Moore used different numbers from different sources.

Guptas producers did not correct the info before the piece went to air as they should have. Gupta was being salacious and trying to play "gotcha" with the wrong guy. He got his due. But as I've said "burn in hell" is bit over the top.

Again, Gupta also said he liked the film and supported health care for all.

Regarding your latest assumption about what I have at stake. I have much at stake, doesn't everyone?! I have a diabetic husband who paid $800 a month for CATASTROPHIC health insurance coverage when he was in his early 20's. He did this while averaging 12 bucks an hour as an independent contractor. I could continue with WHY I have a personal stake in the outcome, but I wont bore you with the details.

I support Michael Moore and this film.

I also support his marvelous marketing campaign which as I've said is a win/win for Moore and CNN and I applaud you all for assisting in this regard.

Now, if you can think of another snippy, sarcastic, condescending, and rude comeback, please be quick about it, because I'm about to exit.

[sandnsea]

30. The only one winning is the medical industry

Sorry you can't see it. But that's why we never go after these guys, there's always one who has bought into the right wing spin. When you hear "fudging the facts" every time you hear "Sicko", maybe you'll finally understand how they play. Bye.

[MannyGoldstein]

33. Moore Cited $251 Per Person In Cuba In The Movie

The $25 was, at best, a fragment of CNN's imagination.

[ConsAreLiars]

41. Remember that Gupta was lying when he claimed that Moore said $25.

And he knew it, since Moore's producer had sent the correction trhat the film said $251. And so on for every lie being told. That sleaze led off with this absolute lie about the film and then went on to present irrelevant statistics as if they somehow countered what Moore was saying.

Claims Moore doesn't mention Cuba at #39 but shows a screenshot showing US at #37 and covers up the bottom of that shot where Cuba at #39 was originally shown (in the film, not CCN).

That is not "nitpicking." That is utterly dishonest craven whoring at best.

[tsuki]

38. It was a hit piece. He used, as his "expert," Paul Keckley.

Keckley makes a great living off the system, as is. Gupta continually talked about Michael Moore "fudging" facts without any supporting evidence, unless you consider waiting for elective procedure as opposed to not receiving any health care supporting evidence.

Gupta's a liar.

[personman]

40. Maybe Gupta will confuse the issue enough that 18,000 people a year can continue to die.

IMO, he turned what was essentially a pretty black and white issue to anyone with a few brain cells and a heart, in to some Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt instilling, Red Scare part 3.

This man is supposed to be a Dr. who took a Hippocratic oath to help people, but who is it who exposed the horrid realities of our system to us? Was it the leading neurosurgeon from "the most trusted name in news"? Where the hell has HE been? Maybe if he'd brought this up himself a few years ago, 50,000 or so people might still be with us. Michael Moore can't do it all...nor should he have to.

-personman

P.S. I won't say that he knowingly lied, he may have even thought (misguidedly) that his little nit-picks were doing people a favor somehow. I think that is probably typical of the corporatocratic point of view of people in that weird-ass entertainment/news world.

Gupta may have believed everything he was saying, but if he believed something different, he wouldn't be working where he is working.

[sandnsea]

9. Bobby called for boycott

in his live earth remarks. When one of these media pundits is being blatantly partisan, boycott the sponsors. He has said it, Teresa Heinz has said it, I don't know what it is going to take for us to start doing it.

[Doctor_J]

18. Bobby who?

:shrug:

[Lars39]

19. RFKjr

[Louie the XIV]

10. Gupta might have gotten some facts confused

but I would be hesitant to wish death upon a fellow democrat who has saved as many lives as he has as both a neurosurgeon and a combat medic in Iraq.

[MannyGoldstein]

11. Gupta Absolutely Had The Facts

Moore's people gave them the facts, all sourced. They are easily, easily available in a quick search on the web.

But Gupta chose to blow them off. Simple choice, really - tell the truth or lie.

When caught red handed, Gupta chose to deny, evade, and dissemble even more rather than to simply say he was wrong.

I don't wish that Gupta die - and I went overboard with the "burn in hell" thing - but Gupta, CNN, and their ilk are guilty of willfully enabling an awful thing that causes great suffering and death.

[goodgd_yall]

34. "burn in hell"

I wouldn't worry about using that phrase. Christians who believe there is a hell to burn in might be offended, but, really, it's just an expression appropriate to use when you feel passionate about something, no?

[polichick]

13. Sad to see Gupta sink so low...

Though I'm sure he was under pressure.

CNN, the most trusted name in news ~ my ass!

[western mass]

15. I'm sure he sleeps well at night....

Corporate blood $$$ can buy a pretty sweet mattress.

[donsu]

17. I questioned Gupta's motives when he pushed for girl's cancer shots

what caught my attention was the way he spewed pharma baron speak.

[mzmolly]

22. It's ironic that RFK Jr. is critiqued for his stance on that issue, and Gupta

was considered a hero. Now Gupta is in the dirt with Bill O'Reilly. LOL Moore is a media genius he's milking this till' "the cows come home." ;)

[locopolitico]

31. dealing with media bias

"I'll not be watching CNN again if I can help it. And I'll let their advertisers know that I'll avoid their products, and I'll ask friends and family to do the same."

That's the only way to deal with conservative media bias. It's the kind of thing conservatives have been doing for years while harping about so-called liberal media bias, and they do it because it works.

[WhiteTara]

32. Gupta did a report today touting the efficacy of

Cesium 235...or irradiated food!!!

Yep, he did an hour on the terrors of organic foods and how we could all die from e coli, and in the end, his conclusion was that HIGHER doses than currently used on food coming into the US will be better for us than the lower doses of Cesium 235 we are already getting.


Gupta a toady for the death machine. BURN IN HELL SANJAY

[democrat2thecore]

35. GREAT Movie...but...

Demonizing those with whom we disagree is getting old. There is nobody walking the streets of this country who is going to feel the same way you feel about each and every issue. When we explode every time there is the slightest deviation from our own views, we are only setting ourselves up for a LOT of stress and disappointment.

With that said, SICKO is a movie of pure brilliance. A must-see if there ever was one.

[Imagevision]

39. Blitzer still refuses to apologize to Moore, they should apologize for smeariong F-9-11 also damn

it!!!!!!!!!!!

[ConsAreLiars]

43. Boycotts are irrelevant in this case.

Sure, CNN gets its operating budget through ads, but whether it operates at a profit or loss is irrelevant, so long as it promotes the interests of the megacorporation it is a part of. It is a 24-hour ad, actually. And more narrowly, how do you tell those needing medication to boycott the drug pushers? Or instruct a taxpayer on how to keep the warmongers from buying their death machines from Boeing or Lockheed? Or stop buying gasoline?