I am gathering that from now on we will not be welcome.

[madfloridian]

So I guess it is time to ask. I have a lot of posts here, and I have been a lifelong Democrat.

We know that because we questioned, the party does not want us. I guess I would like to know that since the primaries are now declared over and the nominee is named, are we welcome at DU? Or are we annoying little gnats who need to go away?

Just wondering.

[Padraig18]

1. Please don't call out another DU-er.

Even though it may be tempting. :)

[Bertha Venation]

7. yikes...

this does seem like a call out, doesn't it? If so, I probably won't get an answer before the thread's locked. :shrug:

[WiseMen]

75. Dean Supporters are welcome by all as great activist and fighters many

have shown themselves to be.

[Baconfoot]

95. Nicely put. n/t

[Dookus]

2. Why would posts

on an obscure corner of the internet be used to determine whether or not you feel "welcome" anywhere outside this obscure corner of the internet?

[Bertha Venation]

3. "We" = Dean supporters?

Sorry, madfloridian. I haven't been keeping up w/ this forum, and just saw your post on the "Latest" page.

Can I take it that Dean supporters are catching flack from others because we continue to support our candidate?

[Padraig18]

8. Sorta like this, BV:

WE HAVE SINNED, SO WE MUST BE CHASTISED! :eyes:

[Bertha Venation]

10. I see....

actually, I don't. Why have we sinned?

Please, indulge me, my friend. Can you catch me up in 30 or so words? I haven't the stomach to wade through the threads and get caught up.

And whoever "they" is better be careful w/ that whip; I'm gonna let it wrap around my wrist and yank his ass toward my fist...

[Padraig18]

17. We have committed the great heresy:

We have opposed the 'business as usual' party insiders and now, because 20% of the nation has voted, we will not slavishly fall to our knees and worship at the altar of 'the annointed one'.

That's the shorthand version.

[Renew Deal]

24. That's a small part of it.

Also Dean supporters claiming that they will vote for Nader, Larouche, Green or themselves before they vote for the nominee.

[Padraig18]

28. Not all of his supporters are Democrats.

That has been made clear repeatedly. HD was the ONLY Democrat that many of his non-Democratic supporters could bring themselves to vote for.

[Kahuna]

91. Clark had the same kind of supporters. Clark, yes....

Any other Democrat, no.

[frustrated_lefty]

34. I guess I was wrong, Bleachers.

Where exactly do you stand on your 'purge' post?

[Renew Deal]

41. Anti-purge

pro-unity. But what I stated in this thread is a fact. I am not saying that people aren't welcome. I am just saying that the cause for MF's feelings are that.

[Bertha Venation]

32. Oh, for sweet Christ's sake.

Forgive the hell out of me for standing against the apparent tide!

I love what Edwards has been saying: This is an election, not a coronation. It's a process! Let it go . . . .

See, it's crap like this that's so damned exhausting, Paddy!

[Padraig18]

36. I know!

All this 'jump on the Kerry bandwagon' stuff is getting on my VERY LAST nerve! :grr:

[MaineDem]

66. Páidín

I mean this in the very best way. Please don't take offense because I don't intend any.

Is this your first primary fight? I'm old and I've been around for a lot of them and it hurts a lot when your candidate isn't winning. Trust me, I've been there. It's shite when you're fighting with your last breath to get your guy elected and it seems everyone else is missing the point entirely.

One of the things I've learned is that we have to look at the final fight...the one that gets GW out of the White House.

I will support any of the Dem candidates. I've said that from the beginning - when my candidate appeared to not have a chance in hell.

Remember that what you read here at DU isn't always a true representation of how people feel.

I never hold someone's allegiance in a primary against them. Life's too short. The important thing is to win in November with the candidate we have.

Once we have a candidate we're all in this together.

Slainte! :)

[Padraig18]

79. Slainte!

I'm ABB, when the day is done, but all the 'jump on the Kerry bandwagon' stuff is getting on my very last nerve, as I said. And no, this isn't my 1st primary fight, but it's my first opportunity to vote for a candidate for President of the United States, and I believe I have an obligation to fight as hard as I know how for the candidate I believe can best do that job.

:toast:

[MaineDem]

107. I would probably do the same

And congratulations on your first Presidential vote. No wonder you're fighting so hard for it. I understand completely.

:)

[Kahuna]

35. Honestly Padraig, I am not one to say that Dean or anyone..

should drop out unless they personally feel it's time. But truthfully it is painful to watch the pound of flesh that the Dean supporters are exacting from their own candidate. To no end. Dean is preaching to the choir at this point. And even the choir members are walking out.

Even if Kerry falters, Edwards would appear to be the beneficiary. Not Dean. It just seems pointless to have Dean out there making a mockery of himself. The media would give him no air time at all if they didn't feel he was good for comic relief.

Like it or not, unless Kerry falters he will be the nominee. So what's the point?

[Padraig18]

42. He'll not be the nominee as long as I have strength left in my body.

HD has already alluded to the fact that he'll probably drop out Wednesday, so I'm prepared for that; what I am NOT prepared for is to concede the nomination to a candidate I believe to be INFERIOR to at least one of the remaining challengers. I will support Sen. Edwards if Howard drops out, but until then, I'm staying ON this train.

[Kahuna]

81. Alright Padraig. As usual you make a good argument for..

your side. I'm not thrilled that Kerry will be the nominee. Only because I can already for see the rightwing attacks that may be difficult for him to surmount. But, the voters are making their choices known. I don't agreed with them. But they outnumber me so that's, that. :shrug:

[GodHelpUsAll2]

83. Painful for who??????

[polpilot]

109. We have called for revolution & demanded an anti-Iraqi war candidate!

The pro-war DLC establishment crowd is outraged.

DEAN '04...

[Lefta Dissenter]

20. Wow, Bertha

you're one tough broad! ;)

[Renew Deal]

22. lol

Ooh baby, hit me harder.

[Padraig18]

26. Come on over to our place, big boy!

:evilgrin:

[eyeswideopened]

87. that's absolutly true ... this has become a kerry forum

[ewagner]

4. Always welcome

As far as I'm concerned the only difference between us is what "flavor" of Democrat we want.

I'd never hold your choice against you.

You'd even be a welcomed guest in my home.

As for the acrimony here.....this too, shall pass.

[still_one]

5. What are you referring to

Everyone has the right to express there views, and support whoever they believe in.

It would be nice, though, if a candidate is selected that we all unite behind that candidate. We will know who that is in March...

[revcarol]

14. The primaries aren't over in March.

I am a firm one for letting ALL Democrats have their say!!

Vital platform issues may be decided upon how the votes go in many states.And our platform may be the deciding factor in whether we will WIN or not. Not all voters decide on the handsomest candidate or the rest of that rot.

[Jax]

6. Oh didn't you hear?

We are supposed to be 'purged' from the 'party' now...disgusting.

Jax

[Bertha Venation]

9. Two queries:

First: says who? purged by whom? who's to be purged?

or,

Second: :tinfoilhat:?

[quinnox]

12. hehe (tinfoil hat)

It's all another conspiracy against Dean!!

[still_one]

15. Not by me

who said so...

[ibegurpard]

11. I can't even pretend to care.

eom

[Lefta Dissenter]

13. I didn't think that any one

DUer has the right to speak for all! I have no clue which post you're referring to, though now I'll have to look, since I did catch your post before you edited the name out! ;)

But as far as I know, DU is sort of, kind of a democracy (well, with a few royal admins and mods tossed in for good measure), and we all speak for ourselves.

If you feel unwelcomed by one DUer, there are almost 40,000 others you can interact with. And, by the way, the same goes for the Democratic Party - and this is coming from someone whose candidate had been virtually shunned until he dropped out!

[MurikanDemocrat]

16. I don't know what you are talking about

It's up to you to decide whether you are a Democrat or not.

My impression from many of the people unhappy with Kerry being the nominee apparent was that they were rejecting the Democratic Party, not the other way around.

[Padraig18]

19. Not by a damned sight!

I'm as yellow-dog as they come, and the thought of Kerry becoming the nominee makes me almost physically ILL. :puke:

[MurikanDemocrat]

48. Not what by a damned sight?

[Padraig18]

69. I'm not rejecting my party, I'm rejecting KERRY! n/t

[eileen_d]

18. Face it, you are enjoying being a victim.

I guess this will be my final post on GD2004 but I have truly had it.

Questions by a small, yet vocal, minority of self-righteous Dean supporters on this board are consistently being framed so that the only possible answer is "Dean and his supporters are being oppressed by the powers that be and there is nothing we can do!"

GET OVER YOURSELVES. Dean did not invent rebellion against the system. Dean is one man. Dean is losing elections. There is a bigger picture out there, but you refuse to see it.

And since this is my last post - why the HELL aren't you people supporting Kucinich if you want true change?

:hi:

[Desertrose]

27. wow...thank you eileen_d

I've been wondering that myself...

Kucinch=true change

Peace
DR

typo edit

[quinnox]

30. Don't leave on their account

Anyways, this forum might not be around much longer if Kerry wraps this up in early March. They said they might re-integrate the general discussion forum with this one in Ask the Admin.

[Kahuna]

46. Please don't leave GD 2004. Your common sense and..

humorous way of putting your views across is very refreshing.

[molly]

77. Honestly - Dennis basically just arrived on the

"BIG STAGE". I lived in Cleveland when he was "boy mayor" and was basically a party joke. Since his run for pres, I have begun to pay serious attention to him and to be honest especially since Will Pitt jumped in to help him. Please don't go away. I feel very sorry for the Dean supporters who gave his campaign their last dime - I really do! Dean was selling snake oil without substance and it is not their fault. For those that refuse to see that the future of this country is much-much more important than losing, say good-bye to them - not DU.

[Kahuna]

21. Why can't Dean supporters take defeat like Clark supporters?

That's what I want to know. Or Gephardt supporters? Or Lieberman supporters? Or Kucinich supporters. You don't see us acting bad and threatening to upset a Dem winning in November. What makes Dean supporters think they are more special than any of us? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know where this sense of entitlement comes from.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catch22Dem]

50. Agreed

You'll probably get a nastygram, but the fact remains, you're correct.

[Padraig18]

52. No, my post says CLARK gutlessly conceded.

And he then endorsed Kerry, which made it even worse. :puke:

[Renew Deal]

54. Gutlessly?

What should he have done?

[Padraig18]

63. Stayed in, at minimum.

And if he couldn't do that much until after at least 50% of the party had voted, he could have at LEAST refrained from endorsing Kerry. And to think, at one time I respected him as an 'outsider'. :puke:

[Renew Deal]

78. Should Gore have waited to endorse?

He is gutless too right?

[Padraig18]

82. Gore wasn't running, and didn't have delegates. n/t

[maddezmom]

55. your post was clearly about Clark supporters, not Clark. n/t

[Padraig18]

60. Your OPINION. n/t

[Rowdyboy]

64. I have to admit, I'm very disappointed to see this from you

You're way better than that, Padraig. He left the race and endorsed someone else. So what? I'm not following his lead.

[Padraig18]

His endorsement is what was over the top, Rowdyboy.

That was the 'Judas moment', for me.

[Lefta Dissenter]

72. Pad, you know better than that.

read Clark's letter which is linked in my sig.

If there's anything Clark isn't, it's gutless. Jeez, why are you striking out at Clark, when he's out of contention? Just a way to win over a few Wes Supporters to get votes for Dean? Sort of a bass-ackwards approach, isn't it?? :shrug:

[Padraig18]

85. No, I'm genuinely FURIOUS at Clark.

His endorsement of Kerry was a 'Judas moment'.

[Kahuna]

49. "Gutlessly?" Thanks.

:-(

[maddezmom]

51. respectfully disagree

Clark dropped out of the race, his supporters have decided for the most part to stay in the dem party and choose another candidate. What do you find gutless about that? Were we supposed to pitch a fit and leave the party cuz our guy dropped out? :shrug:

[Kahuna]

71. I guess we were expected to throw tantrums and...

hurl insults. :shrug: I guess. The voters spoke. I didn't like the process. I don't think that IA and NH should decide who the candidate is. But that's the process right now. There's nothing I can do about it.

[maddezmom]

90. yup, there is only going to be one Democratic Nominee n/t

[boxster]

92. Exactly.

We were supposed to scream and yell and blame everyone else: the DLC, the media, the other candidates, the moon, the stars. Everyone but our candidate and his campaign.

The fact that we Clark supporters have done very little of that makes me even more proud to be a Clarkie!

[Dookus]

56. it's not gutless

to leave a race you're losing badly and have no chance to win. In fact, it's gracious.

The implication that Wes Clark is gutless is very insulting.

[boxster]

89. You're certainly not going to win any converts to Dean by

calling everyone else gutless.

And there are a lot of voters out there that are supporting candidates who have or will withdraw. You might just need a few of them, if you really believe that Dean can pull this out.

[still_one]

25. agreed

I was a Clark supporter, but now I need to view thing realistically.

ABB

[seventhson]

38. First, we are not defeated yet

Second - we are true believers that Dean is a man of the people (unlike Clark or Kerry who we see as DLC/PNAC military corporate insiders)

We don't (many of us) consider either Clark or Kerry as representing our interests at all or feel that they are really for serious change.

DK may be the furthest to the left, but Dean had seemed the most electable.

Lieberman and Gep were more washingtopn corporate insiders who supported the Iraq war.

I do not understand the antiDean animus here at DU. I honestly don't.

We still believe Kerry may crash and burn or he will simnply blow this election and many of us believe that is EXACTLY what Rove wants.

[Renew Deal]

61. Dean is still the most popular active candidate here at DU.

People like Dean and other don't, but we have all taken shit from all over. I don't think it's focused on any one candidate. Kerry has probably taken the most shit recently.

[frustrated_lefty]

67. Entitlement?

What?

Bad Deanie, you want a balanced budget? Health care? A safe world for your kids?

I am in the process of just not coming here anymore. I thought this place reflected my views, but it appears I was wrong.

[Renew Deal]

86. Dean will balance the budget in his 6th year.

If he ever made it that far. Kerry says he will cut the deficit in half in 4 years. Bush says he will cut it in half in 5 years. They all seem to be on the same page. Health care, Kerry is offering that. Safe world, I didn't know the others held the Ottoman position on war and peace.

[waterman]

29. Don't ever read too much into a single thread here.... anyone can

get in a weird or negative mood from time to time. It's just like driving. Most people are cool, but you do get the dickheads from time to time that think their shitty day needs to be everyone's shitty day.

[DU GrovelBot]

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for your support.
 
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[Renew Deal]

39. Grovelbot is always welcome.

:hi:

[Cornus]

33. Just annoying little gnats...

...but you shouldn't go away. Now is the time for all to become united. ABB

[Baconfoot]

40. I think an effort should B made 2 minimize the alienationofDean supporters

...which was the point of the very poorly worded thread of mine I voluntarily deleted.

It's important to include everyone in the process and Dean has brought many people in who otherwise wouldn't normally participate.

As an antiwar democrat (not to mention a moveon monthly donor) Dean has been speaking to some of my core issues.

I think he should either stay in the race till the bitter end or select a candidate to endorse on the basis of which candidate will be least likely to alienate his supporters.

[Padraig18]

58. Your attitude could well serve other campaigns and some supporters.

I am sick and tired of being ABUSED for my supposed heresy of failing to protrate myself at the alter of the annointed one, Sen. Kerry.

[BootinUp]

43. I don't know what you are referring to

These brutal primaries will be over soon, I just hope we can all hang together to take back the WH.

[lucidmadman]

44. I'm pretending it's 1980...

...and I'm voting for Barry Commoner instead of Jimmy Carter. I just love right-wing death squads...

Question: How would AWOL play if the Democratic candidate had a medical deferment from military service and pics of him skiing at Aspen surfaced shortly thereafter?

[mzmolly]

45. I know that feeling well MF ... I'm Proud to be an annoying gnat when the

hypocrits need a little nibble. ;)

[Kahuna]

59. Well, get it out of your system. Because DU rules state..

that when the nominee (Kerry) is official, posts putting him, the party or encouraging activism against the Democratic nominee will not be permitted.

[Padraig18]

65. 2161 delegates is a good way away yet. n/t

[mzmolly]

76. What makes you think I am encouraging activism against the Democratic

Party?

The rules also state we can express disapointment with the nominee. Additionally, I intend to work within the Party. You know what they say about assuming... ;)

[Kahuna]

84. I didn't say you were encouraging activism for a third party..

And I never thought you would. :7

[mzmolly]

100. Darn. I thought I came across as a rebel !

;)

[KoKo]

47. Sadly, I have your same questions.....I feel not wanted here on DU. n/t

[nomaco-10]

96. Well, don't feel alone, there are 100's of...........

us that have exited du for this very thing. We have been alienated and talked to like we were supporting the anti-christ. You'd think we were supporting a bush* mentor instead of a truly decent man who is brilliant and gives a damn about this country instead of how much the special interests groups line his pockets. Democracy is quite possibly dead as we know it.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kahuna]

62. Word. It's not even entertaining anymore.

Just a joke Dean supporters. Lighten up.

[nomaco-10]

102. Clark is gone.......

Do you even know who took him out? I guess you were just mesmerized or hypnotised by his shiny medals.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

74. Almost as dull as...

.. the "Kneel and worship the annointed one" attitude of some Kerry supporters.

[Kahuna]

88. It's not worship for me. I just know that in order to ..

Put Kerry "across" we will have to give him the rockstar treatment... Whether we feel it or not. The repukes will throw everything at him including the kitchen sink. If we aren't united in our support, they will win. We will lose.

[Padraig18]

93. I didn't say I won't support him as the nominee.

I am ABB. That said, I have every right to fight him until the last dog is hanged, until he gets his 2161st delegate, and I plan to do so.

[poskonig]

94. Intelligence versus morality

While one certainly has the right to pound Kerry for several months while the Republicans pound him, it certainly isn't intelligent, especially if the pounder is not going to win. Rumsfeld and Ashcroft will be giving each other high fives as Dean exercises his rights.

Have you seen Dean's negatives lately? They're almost as bad as Sharpton's.

[Padraig18]

97. Tough!

If he can't take it, he shouldn't be running.

[poskonig]

104. Four more years of Bush will be "tough."

Consequences matter. Spending millions of dollars to soften the nominee for Bush is not my idea of the good. Dean has the right to campaign, but I hope he uses his noggin by before March.

[Anwen]

106. Soften the nominee?

If anything, Dean is toughening him up! It's not exactly as if Dean is uncovering hidden secrets about Kerry that the Republicans don't know about. If you think Dean's "attacks" on Kerry are damaging, just wait until the Republicans get their turn. Ouch.

[poskonig]

108. We need to spend money to *help* the Democrats,

not tear down the Democrats. I understand losing is painful, but the rationalization of attacking ourselves is disturbing.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rowdyboy]

57. For God's sake, let Dean stay in as long as he likes...

How stupid is this bullshit about purges? Screw it. If Dean wants to stay in the race and try to turn his luck around, and he has the money to do it, fine-have at it. Maybe he can. I doubt it, but its totally his choice. I wish my candidate (The Mad General) had stayed in but he didn't. Tough shit for me.

[BootinUp]

68. Lol

Why did you call Wes the Mad General? We will eviscerate you for casting that aspersion! j/k

:hi:

[Hippo_Tron]

70. If you follow your candidate in the sense that you want Bush out of office

Then you are welcome here by all means.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

98. I find it a little disturbing

That a lot of people seem to be trying really really hard to convince others "It's over, get over it" or "remember the goal". In a rather nasty spiteful mean way I might add. That's another way of saying abandon your belief do it our way. I have nothing but respect for those who stick firmly to their belief and don't jump ship just because the water gets a little rough. It shows true intergrity! Hats off to you all!

[eyeswideopened]

99. thank you

[Padraig18]

101. Thank you!

:hi:

[Piperay]

103. As far as I am concerned

you are certainly welcome here. :-)

[Iverson]

105. Reality check time.

Do this little experiment.

1. Make a memorandum of your feelings now.
2. Start out your posts with either "Hi! I'm a Green." or "Hi! I voted for Nader in 2000."
3. Note the reactions you get.
4. Compare.

Then let's talk about whether you've modified your hypothesis or no.

[Moderator]

110. locking

1. If you start a thread in this forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. The moderators have the sole authority to decide whether a thread topic is inflammatory.