A funny thing happened at our countywide Democratic Party meeting today...

[derby378]

During our latest county party Executive Committee meeting today, one of the committee members suggested that we start all future county party meetings with a prayer. The discussion quickly turned to the necessity to schedule different clergy from different faiths to deliver the invocation on a rotating basis.

Which, naturally, meant it was time to open my big mouth and put a stop to all of this.

I told the meeting participants that I respected and insisted on their right to believe (or not to believe, as Bill Clinton put in in a '96 debate with Bob Dole), but if we were to actually adopt a prayer before each meeting with a revolving list of clergy, someone somewhere was going to get slighted. Therefore, we should show equal respect to all faiths by just not having an opening prayer at all.

This got other Democrats at the meeting raising their voices in agreement, with a fellow precinct chair saying that separation of church and state was being eroded across America, and we certainly shouldn't encourage the same at our meetings. But then this brand-new precinct chair stood up and tried to placate us all by calling for unity, saying "We're all Christians here," which proved to be her first :wtf: moment of the meeting. After getting booed and shouted at by the other Democrats, she backtracked and then said, "Well, we all worship the same God," which produced :wtf: Moment #2 and even more boos and catcalls. She capitulated and sat down before #3 could manifest.

Long story short, I don't think anyone's going to introduce a similar motion at a DCDP meeting any time in the forseeable future. And I had several people come up and thank me and pat me on the back for speaking up in the first place.

So, how did your day go? :toast:

[rurallib]

1. I went to a McCain function a while back

It started with the Pledge of allegiance, the National Anthem and then a prayer for McCain's health and for the war. I was so damn thankful that I am a Dem and don't have to be such a phony. Way to stand up.
I probably would have said something like - if you want to do that you can do it without me.

[derby378]

3. It felt good doing something meaningful for the party...

I can't leave. For one thing, I've invested myself too much in this to just pick up my marbles and go home. I'm just making sure the local Democratic machine stays true to its egalitarian values...

:toast:

[shrdlu]

2. You did good work today, derby378...

May your message spread...

[derby378]

4. I do appreciate it

I had four people surround me after the meeting, wanting to shake my hand and congratulate me. One guy even told me how he was punished at school for refusing to participate in mandatory prayer. His punishment? Being forced to read a prayer over the PA system. Ouch.

[patrice]

5. Good! Anyone who wants to pray can pray privately. WHAT is this public thing

about prayer???

Prayer is intimate. I think it devalues it to make it generic, like casual sex. Or to pretend the connections are there between you when they aren't. It's coercive.

Good on you for standing up to those Pharisees - a definite power play.

[derby378]

8. That's my wife's take on it, too

And she's an atheist. What does that tell you? :hi:

[patrice]

10. When that sort of thing happens to me, it feels kind of like

being pawed on a first date. It's soooooo f-ing presumptious and demeaning.

[mitchtv]

6. Thanks Derby

although if we don't stop the war , "God help the Democrats"

[derby378]

9. Too bad we can't do much about that on the county level...

...but we claim our victories where we can. At least our troops might still have a Democratic Party worth coming home to thanks to the grassroots speaking up.
:hi:

[patrice]

7. And!! We most certainly DO NOT worship the same God. nm

[Hekate]

18. It was Jerry Falwell's venom that finally made me say "I don't believe in HIS god!"

Let'em take it as they will, but Falwell and Robertson's description of their god's personality is just heinous.

I so appreciate Derby's willingness to stand up to public coercion, no matter how well-intended. Prayer should be private -- let our actions speak for our morality and ethics.

Hekate

.

[patrice]

30. IF we assume that there is something that meets somekind of

average of the definition of what people are referring to when they use the word "God", that divine entity, at least according to conventional definitions would "love you as the (completely) unique individual you are". If there is something such as a genuinely unique individual, that loving relationship with God would have to be predicated on the precise configuration of specific relations between that individual and God, hence, we, indeed, do not worship the same God.

And, of course, all of that ignores the contradiction of being able to define "God" to begin with. I'm with the Kabbalah on this question; defining God is Blasphemy. Any equivalence between the human mind and God is blasphemy, at least and a dangerous delusion, at worst.

What really scares the ______ out of me is hearing about the growth of Evangelical Christianity in Central and South America. Similar to what has happened here in the U.S., people engage in economic relationships as a result of becoming a "faith community", when those economic relationships pay off, they assume it is proof of God's divine love and that reinforces the whole thing, including its political power. The problem south of our border is that there are more people there, more in economic need, and thus more vulnerable to the kinds of material persuasions that are maybe wearing kind of thin in the sated U.S. We WILL be affected by "Christianity" south of the U.S., in how we work out our Immigration issues.

[Hekate]

40. Long before the rise of the far-right fundies, the US had a kind of "civic religion"....

The assumption was that the majority of the population believed in an entity called God (true at the time), and that the country was nearly entirely at least nominally Protestant, Catholic, or Jewish (also true at the time -- Hindus were in India, Muslims were in Arabia, etc).

Out of respect (remember that?) for other people's practices, public references to the deity generally were to God, but not to Jesus, much less to Mary or the saints. There was a kind of comfortable leveling that most people could live with because, after all, we were a "melting pot". People of exceptional religious fervor were on the fringes.

The US has changed a lot in the last 40 years. We have masses of immigrants who are not only not from European countries, but who are emphatically not Christian or Jewish. And simultaneously (but more related to perceived secularization) over the past 30 years the religious right took on a political role, became harsher in tone, decided that their brand of religion was the only true one, and that America itself needed to reshaped and its history reframed.

It was the religious right that changed the tone of our civic religious practices, so that now when someone suggests a public prayer the rest of us often correctly assume it's going to be specifically Christian, and specifically about Jesus. People of exceptional religious fervor (or at least pushiness) are at the center of power, not on the fringes. There is no more comfortable leveling.

As for the rise of Evangelicalism South of the border, it appears to differ in kind from what we experience here. There, the indigeneous peoples have been under the almost exclusive purview of the Roman Catholic church for the past couple of centuries. Not 100%: my first mother-in-law was born in Argentina because her parents were missionaries there.

Protestant missionaries now have more of an opening in Latin America because the RC church has a shortage of priests, especially for rural folks. A person who wants to become a priest must not only be male but must gain entrance to a seminary and undertake years of schooling. The basic requirements to become a Protestant minister have always been a Bible, the ability to read it, and the desire to preach. Of course it doesn't hurt to have gone to Bible college and to have received ordination, but for the rural poor especially these are frills they can do without.

I think what is happening right now is more in the nature of spiritual empowerment, rather than politics. Getting politically involved can be dangerous in some of those countries anyway -- many Catholic priests and nuns have been murdered for their advocacy of justice for the poor and oppressed. I doubt the Protestants, whether Evangelical or otherwise, are likely to be going that route soon.

Hekate

[derby378]

38. I think the neophyte precinct chair in question was a lifelong Catholic

If she lived her whole life surrounded by other Catholics like her, then she was in for a rude awakening yesterday. This is the start of a whole new chapter in her life, one where she's exposed to the rest of the Democratic Party.

[Hekate]

41. I hope it's a pleasant adventure for her. :-)

Sometimes people run smack up against their assumptions, and depending on circumstances it can be eye-opening and they grow. I was once in a small meeting where a young Latino referred to the rest of us as WASPs. Before our Jewish member could splutter a reply, I laughed out loud and said, "Wrong by definition!" and explained that there were no Anglo Saxons and no Protestants, just two Irish/Celts and a Jew, although it is true we were all white. I think that was his moment of realizing that we don't all look alike, as it were. :D

I wish your colleague well. The party is a big tent.

Hekate

[Zoigal]

11. Big thank you

Hope that your actions will encourage more

people to speak up when religion is brought

into public meetings.

[derby378]

12. My pleasure

One thing I forgot to mention is that the Texas Legislature just voted to add the words "under God" to the end of our State Pledge of Allegiance. And it's a very short pledge, too. Or at least it was until Big Government Republicans got into the mix.

[PassingFair]

13. Good for you, derby!

Our local meetings don't have prayer, but the
conventions have us sitting through 3 or 4
types to appease the believers, and yes, it
IRKS me to have to sit, stand, sit, stand....
through it.

I hope to have your courage if and when the
subject comes up in our local meetings.

:applause:

[derby378]

14. Many thanks - just remember that the first step is to speak up

After that, the rest will hopefully come easy. Go for it!

:toast:

[momster]

23. I'm not a Jack-In-The-Box

I don't stand up for prayers, just the pledge. If they want to have five different prayers/invocations/recitations, they're gonna see me sitting down through them all. They should consider our knees, not just our souls.

[derby378]

25. And good luck getting me to pray the rosary or chant Hare Krishna

It just ain't gonna happen. Not at a Demcratic Party function, at least.

[Phredicles]

15. Nicely done - recommended!

:applause:

[gratuitous]

16. Nicely done

Succinct and to the point. I don't understand the need for some folks to cheapen their prayerful communion by parading it around in a room full of strangers, I really don't. We start our church board meetings with a prayer, which seems only right and meet. But to trot out a prayer with a number of other folks? It would be so diluted to conform with real or perceived differences that it couldn't be fit to be called prayer.

Maybe in deference to your precinct chair, the group could take 10 seconds at the beginning of the meeting to take two or three deep breaths, focus on the business of the agenda at hand, and grant one another the courtesy of good faith in your deliberations? After all, several words translated into English in the Bible start out from a word that means "breath" or "wind." Everyone needs to breathe after all.

[derby378]

21. Actually, I am a precinct chair - this was our countywide meeting

And we already open the meetings with our national and state Pledges of Allegiance. And we usually start the meeting a little later than the posted time. I think this should give plenty of time for anyone who wishes to pray, meditate, or take a few deep breaths before we start on the business at hand.

[patrice]

33. Oh!! What an excellent suggestion!

Problem Solved.

I want to remember it if and when I find myself in this situation!

Thanks Much.

:applause:

[shrdlu]

17. Another fiesty Democrat speaks up...

I just browsed across this on a website titled "Kiss my Big Blue Butt" operated by Susan Banksten out of Richmond, Texas...deep Tom DeLay country. I thought it would fit well with derby378's experience.
...............................................

Susan,

One of the best stories this morning at our Democratic meeting was told by a woman who was just elected to the Pearland school board. The superintendent of schools called her up to congratulate her and then inquired about her religious beliefs. The new board member's response was, "My father was Catholic and my mother was Anglican and they taught me that people who ask about other people's religion are the result of bad breeding."

Sam in Pearland

................................................

Where there are stories like these, there is hope.

[Peace Patriot]

19. I totally enjoyed reading this, and I'm very proud of you. It's time to make a stand

for "radical secularism." Or, as it truly should be known: Fundamentalist Jeffersonianism. Old tried and true values. CONSERVATISM!

Yup, the American Revolution was "radical." Get used to it--or get out, Newt! Go live in Baghdad and see if you like living among people who require religious "tests." Fun place.

[derby378]

28. You're very kind...

...but I don't want to file this under any "-ism." I just want us to get together and get party business out of the way, and after that we can worship and/or commune with the Divine all we want. Or, in the case of atheists and Therevada Buddhists, we can hit the park for some R&R.

[monmouth]

20. "We're all Christians here." Bet the Jewish members did a double-take...lol. Good job.

[derby378]

22. What about the atheists in the bunch?

:rofl:

[wyldwolf]

24. we start with the pledge and then a moment of silence.

[derby378]

26. If Quakers didn't worship with an HOUR of silence...

...I'd be all for the moment of silence, too.

[wyldwolf]

27. no quakers in our bunch. Of course, one can do as they wish the moment of silence

[patrice]

34. No need to be uncomfortable around Quakers.

I've known quite a few and they are strictly HANDS OFF on the matters of what anyone believes and why. In groups, they are all about "What is the work of Social Justice? And how are YOU going to do it?"

[derby378]

39. I'm a Quaker, myself...

So no, I am definitely not uncomfortable around them. Just trying to make our treatment of other faiths as egalitarian as possible.

[patrice]

44. Excellent!

The Quakers have done some good work here in Kansas City. I found them when (after reading William Rivers Pitt's book length interview with Scott Ritter) I went to stand outside of Cheney's visit here in the Summer of 2002. The SS wouldn't let anyone who wasn't a paying guest within half a block, but I have a HUGE voice, so I shouted "NO WAR" several times as Cheney got out of his limo and some folks came up and thanked me afterward and told me they were meeting in a park near one of our central entertainment districts downtown. We have been together eversince and they have taught me quite a bit.

I'm actually pretty spiritual, a "fallen" cradle Catholic. I suppose it seems contradictory that someone who's had as much social religion as I have had feels belief is a private matter. I'm not just being contrary nor anti-authoritarian. I taught high school for nine years, perhaps my sensitivity to religious pressure has something to do with how I understand the nature and necessity of autonmy in learning.

[cascadiance]

29. Read a short passage from the constitution, or a speech segment of Martin Luther King's!

... or something of that nature that addresses what such meetings should be all about.

Obviously, try to find something useful and engaging and not too boring, but something that can get people more interested in understanding the REAL law of the land, not what the bible thumpers want us to believe it to be, or for some just "assume", even if at times unconsciously, that we all believe it to be.

[patrice]

35. That's also a Great solution!!

:applause:

[JeffR]

31. Thanks! Great story for a Sunday, too! n/t

[struggle4progress]

32. Hearing a story like this from Dallas just improved my mood immensely

[flpoljunkie]

36. Good work, derby378! Thanks much for your report.

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. Good for you.

There's a whole lot of people who identify with a party without really taking the trouble to check out what exactly that party stands for.

[eppur_se_muova]

42. First Amendment is more than just "a Goddamned piece of paper".

You did good, derby. :patriot:

[annabanana]

43. Sounds like a productive meeting. Good for you for speaking up!

It turns out that the majority present felt the same as you, and might never have known it if you hadn't put in your two cents!

[derby378]

45. Thanks! And y'know, I think you're right...

The main problem I have with some Democrats today, even after the November elections, is that they still haven't learned how to speak up when their voices are needed the most. And it really isn't that hard to do, either.