Kerry's marriage is my business

[dsc]

because he made my right to marry his. I have no idea if this story is true. Certainly Drudge isn't my idea of a good source. But if it is true, then I have every right to take him to task. If he sets himself up as an arbiter of who does and doesn't get to be married, then he needs to be a perfect husband. His marriage im my business because he made it so.

[indie_voter]

1. I agree

If he wants to define marriage then he better be "walking the walk".

[liberalhistorian]

5. Normally, I consider people's

marriages to be their own business and no one else's and I get angry at those who try to make such personal business a public campaign issue, but in this case, I have to admit that you make a good point, and you're right. I can't be hypocritical like the repukes, just because he's a Dem.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

2. Oh brother

:eyes:

[berner59]

8. And if W wants to send 18 yr olds....

to die in a bogus war, then maybe he should have "walked the walk" instead of hiding under poppy's coat tails...

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

35. That still wouldn't have been a good excuse for this war

even if it was started by someone who wasn't a completely irresponsible ignorant fucktard.

[indie_voter]

59. Yes!

Which is why AWOL is such an issue now. He is sending people to their deaths yet(apparently) weasled out of service.

Hypocritical.

If somebody is going to piously dictate who can marry who then they better be prepared to have their marriages held to the light.

If somebody is going to send other people to their deaths they better be prepared to answer their personal war record/stance.

[oxymoron]

3. Heheh....

and the desperate spin never ceases...

[dsc]

9. look I didn't start telling people who could and couldn't get married

he did. I have no idea if this story is true but he started it not me.

[oxymoron]

10. He hardly "told people who and who couldn't get married".

I'll say it again:

I appreciate John Kerry's long standing support of the gay community. He has been a loyal supporter of GLBT issues for many years, and long before it was a politically expedient thing to do. He lobbied and voted against DOMA. He has an exceptional rating from the Human Rights Campaign and The National Gay and Lesbian Taskforce. Any attempt to characterize him any differently is just spin and has no basis in fact. You don't speak for me and you should be ashamed of yourself for misrepresenting his record. I'll listen to the major GLBT grassroots politcal organizations when deciding on a candidate.

John Kerry's rating from the HRC:

http://www.hrc.org/Content/NavigationMenu/HRC/Get_Informed/Campaigns_and_Elections/Presidential_Candidates/2004_Candidates.htm

John Kerry's rating from the NGLTF:

http://www.ngltf.org/electioncenter/SummaryComparison.pdf

[dsc]

12. Oh really

What part of I am against gay marriage isn't telling me who I can and can't marry? And to sit there and use tradition to defend that.

[Dookus]

17. Howard Dean

is against gay marriage, too.

You conveniently forget that even though it's pointed out every 10 minutes or so.

[dsc]

22. and if he has an affair I'll denounce him too

you can count on it. Until then you can just stop trying to call me a hypocrite.

[janx]

24. Howard Dean

wants to leave that up to individual states.

He also believes strongly in separation of church and state and wants to leave the religious aspect of marriage up to the churches.

He differs from Kerry in this respect because Kerry came out against his very own state's decision on gay marriage.

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. Actually, Dean has said if any state passes gay marriage

he will recognize whatever they are able to get passed. All he said is that he doesn't support a federal law allowing gay marriage. ANd he certainly would NEVER even think about voting for the BS constitutional amendment Kerry is talking about signing. That's a HUGE difference.

Dean doesn't support a federal gay marriage law but he doesn't oppose the states (like Mass) that can pass one being allowed to do so. Kerry apparently not only opposes a federal gay marriage law, but he wants to prevent states from passing their own state laws, too...and that's why Kerry sucks on gay rights.

[Dookus]

36. a quote from this article

Howard Dean: "I am against gay marriage."

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/feb2000/news_centerstage.htm

[KaraokeKarlton]

43. He was against it in Vermont

and that's what he was talking about in 2000, when Civil Unions was passed and signed into law in Vermont. Representing the state of Vermont is a bit different than representing the entire country. For the country, Dean's policy is that he would not force gay marriage or even Civil Unions onto states. He would encourage states to address the issue and give federal recognition to the residents of any state that passed any law supporting equal partnership rights for homosexuals. I can go dig up a much more current link in a couple of minutes if I felt so compelled, but I don't need to because anyone who has been paying attention and REALLY cares about the issue already knows where Dean stands, and it's in a far better light than John Kerry is standing.

[absyntheNsugar]

56. Doesnt the ammendment provide for civil unions?

Which, I agree is half assed - but better half assed than no ass at all?

[Cheswick2.0]

71. big difference dookus

Dean is not for making an ammendment so that gay marriage ban will be a permanent part of the law.

[Tinoire]

29. If this is the issue you care about the most

Vote Kucinich and MAKE him electable!

I love you Dsc but get more people to stop the hand-wringing and DO something!

[Nicholas_J]

52. When did Kerry state

That gays couldnt get married. Or that he would support an act that prohibited gay marriage. Not that he would consider such and act, but that he would sign it. He hasnt yet.

Dean on the other hand, did prevent an act from passing, which would have allowed gay marriage to be legal in Vermont and sided with the "Civil Union" solution, at a time when there were enough votes to pass the marraige legislation in the Vermont Legislature.

Dean also cited his opposition to the gay civil rights bill that was presented to the U.S. Senate in 1986.

Out of the two, Kerry has a far more consistant record of supporting gay rights than Dean.

Dean was forced to sign one ill or the other, by the Vermont Supreme Court, which only gave him two solutions and is extremely ultraliberal. SO ultraliberal that they simply would have declared any amendment to the Vermont Constitution to undo either Civil Unions or Gay Marriage unconstitutional if conservatives in the Vermont Legislature tried to do so. When the Vermont Legislature passed a proprty tax law that was based on a simply flat tax rate, which Dean and the Republicans supported, the Vermont Supreme Court declared such a tax, which is pretty common in other states, as unconstitutional, and forced the legislature to create a progressive property tax, which Dean avoided taking part in, leaving the legislature to create it, Dean signed it.

Same thing with Civil Unions. Dean actively spoke out against the alternative for gay marriage, and without the Governors support, conservatives were able to push the lesser of two evils, with the wing-nut brigade that spent the years between 1996, when Baker v State Started, and 2000, trying to pass an "Anti gay marriage act;Which failed to get anything close to enough votes to pass for 4 years in a row. Dean had an opportunity to support gay marriage, the first legislation sent to the Vermont legislature after the Supreme Court decision was for gay marriage, not civil unions (Bill Lippert wrote this legislation between December 20th 1999, and the opening day of the Vermont Legislature on the day it opened for the 2000 session in January of 2000.

Members of the gay community as well as the Vermont Legislature stated that Dean was "out of touch" in not supporting the gay marriage legislation .

[dsc]

53. He has stated unequivocably that he is against gay marriage

To his credit he has stated that both to gays faces and behind their backs. What isn't to his credit is his recent flirtation with amendments. But his opposition to gay marriage is nothing short of pure hypocricy if his marriage vows mean nothing to him.

BTW gay marriage had 35 votes out of 76 needed in the Vermont House. Dean didn't prevent a god dammed thing.

[kenny blankenship]

55. february 5th

to be exact. More recently in an NPR interview.

Let's try to keep up, huh?

[diamondsoul]

94. Yes he has, and it was one of the things

I most appreciated him for. Not because it affects me directly, but because I despise any policy that relegates anyone to second-class citizenship.

I'm sickened by his refusal to defend the right of anyone to marry the person of their choice, gender aside. I'm disgusted by his apparent position that the Government has some sort of business defining a spiritual union as a basis for rights and benefits under the law. That's just flat out WRONG and he does you no favor with it.

Civil unions will mean exactly NOTHING for you if what you want is to establish your own marriage and family, unless it's legislated at the Federal level. Adoptions won't be recognized universally, unions and marriages won't be recognized universally and you'll STILL fall victim to the same old discriminatory laws you deal with now. The difference will be you may not find out they exist until after you've broken them.

[SangamonTaylor]

4. That is a very valid point.

He should stick up for his beliefs about the 'sanctity of marriage'.

[Cha]

6. Good Point!

mr. holier than thou, not everyone has the right to be married!

Typical nuanced bullcrap!

[DuctapeFatwa]

21. What other groups should be denied the right to marry? What other rights

should be witheld from certain groups?

[Tinoire]

39. Right to life for Arabs and any other brown-skinned people my friend

Have you not heard?

Wir, die Amerikanerin, sind die Uber-Menschen.

We can rape, pillage, plunder at will because our manufactured national security depends upon it.

What better way to justify continuing down this mad path other than to convince the sheep that it's "them" vs "us"?

Look again at the records of who joined the Jews in Hitler's concentration camps- everyone who said that it wasn't "us" against "them".

I hope that the day you and I find our way there that our paths shall cross.

Peace.

[mitchum]

7. Hysteria

[David Dunham]

11. Dean Is Going Nowhere; It's JK or JE v. Bush

[dsc]

13. You can insult my candidate until the cows come home

but kerry has no right to tell me who I can marry if he can't live up to his vows.

[IndianaGreen]

18. Kucinich is the man!

He is not a millionaire and he voted against the war and PATRIOT.

Dennis also supports gay marriage!

[Renew Deal]

14. If what's right?

That a news organization is investigating Kerry for something you don't know he did. And on top of that, how do you know they are investigating?

[dsc]

20. I don't know any such thing

but if he had an affair after or while telling me I am unfit to marry, then he has no business doing that. You should be walking the walk.

[Dookus]

23. Howard Dean

isn't in favor of gay marriage either.

[dsc]

28. again if he has an affair

I will denounce his ass you can count on it.

[Dookus]

33. Lemme understand..

because somebody says Kerry may've had an affair, you can attack his position on gay marriage, even though it's the same as Dean's?

So if the Kerry affair thing turns out to be a dud, you won't say anything else about his position on gay marriage?

somehow I doubt that.

[dsc]

37. No I won't

I will say something about his adovacy of an amendment but I won't about his position on gay marriage per se. If you can find even one post, just one, where I criticised Kerry for being against gay marriage without my mentioning the advocacy of an amendment before this, then I will apologize for it here and now.

[Dookus]

40. not sure what that means...

My point is you're taking two disparate issues and saying they somehow affect one another.

issue A is gay marriage
issue B is the possibility that Kerry had an affair

I don't see how a position on one really affects one's position on the other.

[dsc]

42. It was pretty clear but here it is again

My problem, before this affair story was not his position on gay marriage but the fact he was considering enshrining that position in the constitution. A position that Dean didn't take. But now, if he had an affair, then I do have a problem with his opposing gay marriage. If he can't value his marriage vows he has literally no business whatsoever telling me who I can and can't marry.

[greatauntoftriplets]

15. Kerry had his first marriage annuled.

Scroll down a bit, it's buried in the article.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/05/05/time/kennedys.html

[dsc]

54. He was married from 2001 to 2003

and that is the new stuff in the drudge piece.

[stickdog]

86. He tried to have it annulled til his first wife raised holy hell about it.

Literally.

[Straight Shooter]

16. dsc is absolutely correct

Sexual orientation or sexual proclivities absolutely do not belong in the public arena, but unfortunately there they are, and we are judged as to our moral fitness in accordance with our conformity to certain standards. If dsc has to constantly endure indignity because of sexual orientation, then Kerry should be willing to withstand a bit of indignity himself. He should expect no sympathy from dsc because he hasn't stood up unequivocally for her/his rights.

John Kerry is not a basketball player or the CEO of a company, nor is he Sylvio Berlusconi and the leader of a country which allows a wink and nudge at marital infidelity. He is a presidential candidate in America. His behavior is subject to scrutiny, and he understood this when he began his campaign.

I don't care what he does in the bedroom. I don't care what anybody does, as long as their partner is a consenting adult. But if the assailed adulterer does not stand up for the assailed homosexual, then dsc has a legitimate grievance.

And may I point out that despite the content in the Bible, there is no commandment against homosexuality and yet there is one against adultery. And this is precisely what the fundies will pin on kerry.

[paulk]

19. you have absolutely no right to discuss John Kerry's marriage

using a RUMOR as a pretext to judge his character.

You have let partisanship destroy all reason here.

[dsc]

25. He gave me that right

when he decided to take away my right to do so.

[David Dunham]

32. If It's a Choice Between Electing JK Pres. or Gay Marriage, I'll Take J

[Walt Starr]

26. I cannot argue with this

You have every right to question him about his marriage.

[Fleshdancer]

27. As a heterosexual, I never thought to see it from your POV

I'm still betting that it isn't true, but if it is, you have a very valid point.

Just out of curiosity, did you feel the same way about Clinton since he signed DOMA and obviously had an affair?

[dsc]

30. You bet your ass

Never once did I criticise Gore on this score but I did Clinton, and that is exactly and precisely why. I didn't think Impeachment was warrented and I felt the investigation was way worse than the crime but on a moral level a serial adulter like Clinton had no damn business telling me who I can and can't marry.

[DU GrovelBot]

31. ## Support Democratic Underground! ##

RUN C:\GROVELBOT.EXE
 
This week is our first quarter 2004 fund drive.
Please take a moment to donate to DU. Thank you
for your support.
 
- An automated message from the DU GrovelBot

Click here to donate.

[Dr Fate]

38. It's no ones business but his...

...I dont even know if its true...the Republicans want to use "the sex" to smear & divide...

I'm not going to play into it...

[bitchkitty]

41. Amen brother!

You're so right.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

46. I don't consider my rights a made up issue

I also said, I had no idea if the story is true. Your candidate, told me that I was unworthy of marriage.

[Mad Cow Doc]

45. Cheat once cheat again

People need to be judged by their actions. If a man Cheats on his wife or his taxes or his golf score he may very well be judged untrustworthy by those around him. He may be put down by others who possess worse character flaws than his own. That judgment by those hypocrites does not lessen his own flaws any, but it is amazing how many men take comfort in thinking that they are superior to someone less than them when they are not nearly what they could be. We are not lost to our mistakes in life but we learn from them when we admit our wrong doing and move on. The biggest mistake is to compound our problems by covering them up with lies and excuses rather than taking responsibility for our action. Politicians seem to excel at making matters worse. Think of how much more respect President Clinton would have gotten IF instead of lying under oath, he had simply said it was a personal matter between his wife and himself and refused to answer any questions about Monica.

[roughsatori]

47. I support Kucinich--but if there is truth in Kerry's philandering then

you are absolutely,philosophically correct in pointing out the he has no business pushing the sanctity of marriage--since he (if the rumor is true) disrespected his own.

[nancyharris]

48. Even if the rumor is NOT true

He still he has no business pushing the sanctity of marriage by denying gays and lesbians the same marriage rights as heterosexuals.

[dsc]

49. kick

[stickdog]

50. I can't say I disagree with you.

X-tal "Stating the Obvious Again"

[dsc]

51. kick

[Edge]

57. Kerry's marriage is nobody's business but his.

What happened between him and his wife (if it were true) by no means concerns us, does it?

What goes on in a persons' private life is meant to be...private.

[dsc]

58. Not when he decides to but into my private life

Once he does that his is fair game.

[Edge]

60. He hasn't put anything into your private life...

you let it in. You follow the rumors.

If you don't like it, don't listen to the rumors. It's easy enough.

[dsc]

63. Yes he has

He is on the record, and repeatedly, as stating that he is against gay marriage. That is butting into my private life. That is deciding who can and can't get married. Once he does that, I have every right to decide if he is or isn't living up to his marriage vows. Ones he has repeatedly said I am unfit to take.

[Tinoire]

69. Damn. This post clearly drove your point home for heteros.

I have every right to decide if he is or isn't living up to his marriage vows. Ones he has repeatedly said I am unfit to take.

Thank you for this thread.

[dsc]

70. thank you

I have no earthly idea if this story is true or false, but it is my business.

[Tinoire]

74. You know... I defended Clinton throught thick and thin over Monica

got into fights with friends over it.

Even after the heart-break of NAFTA, GATT, Colombia etc...

It was male DUers who helped me see clearly and changed my mind this summer because I was still maintaining it was no one's business except Hillary's. They didn't bring up your point (which talks to DOMA) but they saliently stated "The fate of the Free World hung on his ^%*& and he choose his ^%*&".

Your point is an important, subsequent nail on the matter than I had not considered before. Thank you. I am not a Gay advocate (even though I firmly believed in supporting your rights) but I think I am now going to have to become one in this campaign because of the hypocrisy you just laid bare. Really, thank you.

That's 3 for you... Lieberman, can't remember the second, and now this. Thanks

[dsc]

76. It is posters like you

that are why I stayed and fought the fight here as things grew so dark toward Dean and Dean supporters.

[Tinoire]

79. Thanks Dsc. It's mutual and BIG KICK. This thread is important!

That feeling is mutual. There are many days I wanted to quit DU, disgusted at the right-wing turn the tone was taking but stuck it out knowing there are pearls all over the place and posters like you whose hearts are in the same place mine is.

[indie_voter]

61. No it isn't

Both parties are intruding in to our bedrooms. They then forsake their own privacy.

[Woodstock]

62. is losing the election your business?

otherwise, maybe pushing this after the election once we have a Democrat in office might be a better idea

[dsc]

64. last I checked this was still the primary

Now is exactly the time to figure out if we have an adulterous hyocirte running for President or not.

[JVS]

65. I certainly hope not! Our party and our country deserve better.

Let us pray that these rumors are false and refuted promptly. The worst thing that could happen is for this issue to be ignored until Bush rolls it out in the GE. That would be an unmitigated disaster.

[Tinoire]

75. Spot on. It's sad that partisan loyalty

It's sad that partisan loyalty would prefer a mad rush to a premature coronation (when less than 25% of the delegates have been awarded) than the opportunity to avoid a train wreck.

Imagine the nightmare of a bevy of fresh young interns & other girls being trotted out all over again to tug at protective parental swing-voting hearts all over the country if this story is true.

[MoonAndSun]

87. JVS, you are right on, if it is true that the media already knows

and were waiting for after the conventions to bring this out, then it is good that Drudge let it out yesterday.

If Kerry is innocent, then let him unequivocably deny it, say "it's a damn lie and I am going to sue Drudge for slander".

If it turns out to be true (a big if right now), then he will be forced to step down by the Dem leadership. Even the DLC knows this will doom his nomination.

[Cheswick2.0]

72. time to figure it out is now while the primary season is still early

Kerry is not kinged yet

[dsc]

66. kick

[tobius]

67. didn't occur to me at all-you are absolutely correct. n/t

[dsc]

68. kick

[RetroLounge]

73. Thank you for this post dsc. You are correct!

eom

[edzontar]

77. DSC, your logic in unimpeachable...and you are correct!!!!!

Kerry is pandering of course, with finger raised to the wind, just like he was on the war---when he voted to send our soldiers to die and our bombers to drop bombs on civilians for no reason...

No reason that is, but his own "electability."

He seems more and more to be a man without core principles.....

[in_cog_ni_to]

78. spot on, dsc. n/t

[Tinoire]

80. Kick. Not letting this drop off the front page. n/t

[dsc]

81. kick

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

82. Then don't be surprised when others stick their nose in your bedroom

and make judgements.

[dsc]

83. He already has

which is my basic point. How in God's name can I get on Barr, Hyde, Gingrich, and Dole among others for their utter hypocricy if I let this slide. He is the one, who using his respect for religion, publicly declared me unfit for marriage. He shouldn't have done that. Since he did, his marriage is now an issue.

[Forkboy]

84. as a gay person

I would think both you and dsc are already used to that happening :shrug:

[w13rd0]

85. Two men who shouldn't be dictating to me about marriage:

Bush with his loveless marriage to a Stepford wife

Kerry with his serial matrimony to wealthy heiresses and long rumored sly old dirty dog syndrome

[goobergunch]

88. I never thought of it that way before

Excellent point. :yourock:

Now why is this on page two? :kick:

[genius]

89. Hi Theresa Hein. Since she's the only one with an interest in his marriage

I assume that you are she. I notice she's still backing her husband so I guess he's good enough for the one person for whom it matters. Get a life!

[dsc]

90. Get him out of mine

and I will desert his. He took an interest in my life first. He decided I was unfit for marriage. He flirted with amending the constitution. He did it. Thus his marriage is fair game.

[genius]

91. Dean also opposes gay marriage. Only Kucinich supports it.

Are you going to switch or is this a non-issue?

[dsc]

92. And if Dean has an affair

I will be denouncing him too. BTW Kucinich supported DOMA when it mattered. And Kerry flirts with amending the constitution.

[dsc]

93. a real answer would be nice

[jonnyblitz]

97. Did Dean say he would support a consitutional amendment

banning it like Kerry said he would? It's one thing to oppose, another to do the more drastic thing by putting that opposition in the constitution.

[sistersofmercy]

95. You will stand by Dean no matter what!

That is admirable but tell me again what is Dean's stance on this issue, my guess is it matters not. So let's at least be honest here. BTW Kerry's marriage is NYFB. If you fail to see the difference that's your problem. Oh and tell me again, where does Dean stand on this issue, the real issue. So let's have discourse about the real issue and not extraneous crap. Avez-vous compris?

[dsc]

96. If Dean has an affair I would denounce him too

I voted for Clinton in 96 after he signed DOMA but even then I was bitterly angry that a serial adulterer had the nerve to tell me who I could and couldn't marry. It would have been as if I gave temperance lectures at that time.