War 'Hero' Politicians - like McCain. I gotta get this off my chest .......

[Stinky The Clown]

What's a war hero? In some circles, it can be anyone who serves honorably, even if undistinguishedly, in combat. And that's fair. And I'm not arguing the validity of the definition.

Applying a higher standard, a war hero is someone who serves in combat and performs in a manner that exceeds the standards established by his peers. Generally, but not always, some people who so perform are awarded citations (Bronze and Silver Stars, for example) by their grateful government. While far from rare, such awards are also not terribly common. The recipients of such awards can often be seen as war heroes. But, without any intent to take anything away from them, we don't usually refer to them as ..... 'heroes'. We sometimes do, and it isn't wrong, but usually ..... we just don't.

Real heroes are, in my mind at least, quite rare. Audie Murphy, for example, was a hero.

John Kerry, Max Cleland, Wes Clark, and Jim Webb fall somewhere well below Audie Murphy on the Hero Scale. They're probably solidly in the class I describe above as a 'higher standard'. Each could wear the label of hero for actions they consciously and knowingly - if not instinctively - decided to undertake.

And then there's John McCain. Of all the politicians currently of note who also have combat experience, he's the odd man out, really.

To be fair, he became a Navy aviator by choice. However, in training, he managed to crash a jet. He still graduated, but the jet wreckage was there.

He was a survivor of the Forrestal fire. Scary and noteworthy, but the fact is, like so many others, he was just there. His heroism, if there was any, was entirely motivated, it can fairly be said, by instinctive self preservation.

It was surely brave to strap an F-14 to his butt every day, fly off the Oriskany into the most dangerous skies above North Viet Nam, and do his job. (In an earlier war, a guy named George McGovern did the same thing with a rickety B-24 over Africa and later northern Europe. Who ever called him a war hero when he was an active politician??) McCain was shot down. I honor him for surviving more than five years at the Hanoi Hilton - as terrible a POW prison as might be imagined. But so did many others. The only noteworthy accomplishment of his - apart from the Herculean task of simple survival - was refusing release solely because his father was CINCPAC.

And yet, in American popular culture, only John McCain is routinely called maverick and war hero.

Of these two descriptions, one is just plain wrong and the other in minimally true.

It is not my intention to take one hint of note away from anyone who did what John McCain did in the military. I honor him and I surely honor all those who did all he did and more, but did it anonymously. It is simply that I find John McCain, the politician, self-aggrandizing, insincere and unworthy of his popular images.

I expect I could get flamed for some of this. Before you do that, ask me what I mean/meant if you're unsure and you're flaming by knee-jerk reaction rather than reason and complete understanding.

Edit to repair the grammar in the first sentence of the seventh paragraph.

[Monkeyman]

1. The Only Ones Brother are the Names on the Walls

Medals don't mean a thing. Mine are in a box some where

[BlueStater]

2. I'm not going to flame you

John McCain might have been a hero as a soldier but as a politician he's anything but.

[badgerpup]

30. Just because someone was a 'war hero'...

is no reason to give them a pass on everything else for the rest of their lives.

"Duke" Cunningham also falls into that 'war hero' subset, but that didn't stop him from purposefully and knowingly behaving in a corrupt and unethical manner.

This is a sticky subject. When people- and not just soldiers- do something that is considered good, or honorable, or courageous, that gets remembered and attached to them.
It makes it difficult to reconcile the image of the person who has this 'good' record with any subsequent unethical choices that they obviously, knowingly and willingly make later in life.

"Say it ain't so, Joe!" pretty much sums up the reaction from everyone who is disillusioned and disappointed when our 'heroes' turn out to be flawed as any other human.
JMHO....

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

3. You have hit the nail on the head.

There is really nothing in John's military background, Hanoi Hilton aside, that makes him any more or less than anyone else that is a veteran. And there were many in the Hanoi Hilton with him, all of them are war heroes too...........

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

4. I agree, but after his bullet vest in the market place moment,

I'm not gonna worry about him any more. I thought he was pretty well done before, but now I feel we can stick a fork in him; he's burnt to a crisp.

[Morgana LaFey]

24. and the really fun thing about that?

He did it to himself -- alone, entirely. The main problem: trying to be ANYthing but what and who he is. Being an opportunistic hypocrite. He did well last time 'round because he refused to play those silly games; now it's the only game he knows and it's SICKENING. HE is sickening.

He did it to himself. I LOVE it.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

25. Right on all points!

If I wasn't so busy peeing my pants laughing I could almost feel sorry for the repug. Almost, but not quite. He's still a hard right wackjob.

[supernova]

5. If you're trying to say

that we bandy the word hero around a little too freely these days, I agree with you. It's become another way to market candidates who happen to have served, sometimes with distinction, sometimes not.

[theoldman]

6. A hero is someone who is willing to risk their life to save another

person's life. This does not include a person who joined the military or became a fireman unless they perform a deed that saved someone's life. Using this definition, McCain is not a hero. He is just an unlucky person who ended up in prison.

[orpupilofnature57]

7. Sorry ,the Audie Murphy Effect is gone ,duped by an Idiot ,Cracked Actor

is what you are.

[IndianaGreen]

8. No one can take McCain's heroism away. He even refused to be freed

on account of his father being a big shot in the Navy.

Naval Aviator McCain is not the one running for President. What we got is a man that has deliberately forgotten the shit deal Bush gave him in 2000, as well as what he said about the Religious Right, and has become everything he publicly loathed in 2000.

Senator McCain is no hero, but an enabler of war crimes!

[orpupilofnature57]

9. K&R!!!!!!!!!

[progdonkey]

10. survival doesn't mean heroism...

I think to be a hero you have to put yourself in harms way for the sole purpose of saving someone else. McCain simply survived. He's a survivor, not a hero. Had he elected to be taken to the Hanoi Hilton so someone else could be released (and refusing to have your daddy throw his influence around to get you out is certainly commendable but is not the same thing), that would be heroic.

I think an apt analogy to the two different situations is if you have two planes that are about to crash.

The first scenario is a crashing plane that doesn't have enough parachutes to go around. If someone chooses to stay behind and keep the plane level so everyone else has a parachute and will be able to jump to safety, that person is absolutely a hero. That person chose to die/put himself in mortal danger so others could live.

The second is a passenger jet. All but one person on board are killed in the crash. This one person, though, is badly injured/burned and spends the next six months in the hospital going through painful physical therapy and operations. Is that person a hero? Certainly he's suffering a huge amount of pain that few would be able to handle, but does that make him at all "heroic"? No, of course not.

McCain's been through shit that I'd never be able to handle, but that just means he's more resilient than I am, not more heroic.

[jody]

11. Among military professionals, McCain is a true hero regardless of his political persuasion. n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

12. That's pretty much a non sequitor .....

.... not arguing .... just trying to understand .... can you back that up with something or is it just your opinion? (Which, in all fairness, is nothing more or less than my OP ... my own opinion.)

[jody]

16. Read about McCain at the Wikipedia link below.

John McCain

A "NON SEQUITUR" is defined below and in no way describes my statement.
1. An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence.
2. A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. I guess I'm wondering how you come to use the qualifying term .....

.... "among military professionals".

[jody]

20. My use of that term did not limit those who acknowledge McCain is a hero. It's a phrase I use

because I'm thoroughly familiar with that special group and their view of McCain's performance as a Naval officer.

Have a nice day. :hi:

[sutz12]

32. Fine....but...

his performance as a politician refutes any qualities he might have shown during his stint in uniform.

He rolled for Bush when he was subjected to some really shitty treatment. Now he's pulling on Dubya's crank trying to prove I don't know what.....I guess the he could be as "good" of a "war president" as Bush. I think he could be that good, and that is far from good enough IMO. He's been kneeling and sucking for the religious nut bag money and votes lately.

I've lost all respect for John McCain the war hero. John McCain the politician has weaned me of that.

[jody]

33. His performance as a politician can never erase his performance as a naval officer. Apparently

you do not know that Husb2Sparkly's OP asked "What's a war hero?"

If you wish to start a thread to bash McCain's political performance, then go for it and I'll be on your side but McCain is still a war hero.

[loyalsister]

13. Had a discussion about this recently

The strict definition could be applied to the guy who helped change my friends tire.

This word bothers me as well.

They are not fighting a war because the people of their country are in danger. They are fighting over ideologies and history that we have nothing to do with at this point.

They fought because they were convinced that they were defending us from a take over of an ideology during the Vietnam war.

"Heroism" is a more personal concept in my opinion.

The idea confuses me. I kind of think if it's about ideology, they all are or no one is. I don't like elevating some of them. I think they should be recognized more equally.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. The strict definition would be that guy in New York a few months ago ....

.... who jumped onto the subway tracks and used his body to shield the guy who had fallen.

[loyalsister]

21. That too

The guy I was talking about was stranded on the highway. It's all relative.

[AtomicKitten]

15. this topic reminds me of the shit the Swift Boat Liars spewed

... when they denigrated Kerry's military service. I don't know if anyone that serves is exactly a hero (that term is grossly overused in America IMO), but they sure as hell deserve some respect for their service. If I had to choose, I'd pick a "war hero" over a chickenhawk any day of the week. So, in answer to your question, I think military service does give a candidate brownie points.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. I don't disagree with you ..... service, IMHO merits 'brownie points'

My concern is the use of the label 'hero'

Why is it that McCain is always described as a hero (and a maverick) while none of the others in my example (Kerry, Webb, Clark, Cleland, McGovern) are?

And if we choose to define hero as someone who proactively *does* something instead of simply being there, each of my example people is more a 'hero' than McCain. (Again, not to take one bit away from McCain nor to disrespect or demean in ANY way what he did and what he lived through.)

[AtomicKitten]

19. cuz he is a Republican, silly

:)

Ps: I hope you are well and not smoking.

[The Count]

22. Yup. War hero is reserved for GOP. Copyrigted if I am not mistaken. Like 9.11

I'm with ya.

[stevedeshazer]

23. Right on, Stinky

My dad and my uncle never used their military service to lie to Americans about how fucking great war is, unlike McCain.

No flames here, I think your take is spot on.

[EVDebs]

26. No heroism during his S&L scandal experience

And our CIA was reported to be behind a lot of the losses racked up during that time in the '80s.

Google up Keating 5 and he's right there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

I personally witnessed millions of dollars shipped 'offshore' to Panama during that time in my position at a title company processing documents. The 'flips' on one deal went into the millions and it went to a place in Panama City. I understand that Panama and Liberia use US dollars as alternate currencies so something along those lines maybe a money laundering expert could expound upon.

[vankuria]

27. This is a sensitve issue to me

I can disagree with Sen. McCain on just about any issue he stands for and that's fair game, but I won't question or dissect his service to his counry.

Whatever stupidity he shows in his campaign shouldn't take away from his military service, to me that's sacred. If people want to think of him as a "war hero", whatever their defination, thats fine with me. It's not going to save him from a campaign thats pretty much in the toilet.

After what happened to Sen. Kerry the issue of questioning someones service to their country is very personal to me.

As the wife of a combat veteran who served in Desert Storm, I consider my husband a "war hero". That's what he is to me, even if someone else disagrees. There's nothing easy about going to a war zone and putting your life on the line, knowing you may never see your family again. It's very tough and not someothing we all could do.

I guess we can all "agree to disagree", so to speak.

Peace & Love

[Bluedogvoter]

28. Desmond Doss

Thats the type of War Hero I respect most even if I know I would be at odds with him politically.

[agincourt]

29. I look at it this way,

John McCain was a great hero when he was younger. Now he supports our worst President since the turn of the last century and perhaps before. Like Henry the VIII he did not age very well. He was a hero once, now he sucks because he's for Bush.

[LeFleur1]

31. Another Perspective.

We could say:
Once upon a time that man was a hero. Today he is not.

[sampsonblk]

34. No flame, but I strongly disagree

Having served, there are many ways to be a hero in my opinion. John McCain showed character far above what is expected of a US soldier. For that, he endured hardships which would have crushed the spirit of most soldiers I have known. His performance in those days is something for other soldiers to aspire to. Definitely a hero.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. My completely unacceptable contrarian position

Everyone also acts as if the Americans held in DRV prisons were some innocent lambs snatched from their suburban split-levels by mustache-twirling Fu Manchu villains. Er, no. John McCain was engaged in an unprovoked bombing campaign against one of the most densely populated areas in the DRV, dropping fire on people from the sky. Without declaration of war. He's lucky that the Vietnamese had more decency than to label him an enemy combatant, and hold him extra-judicially and indefinitely. American bombing in the DRV killed 10 times the number of civilians as 9/11, and maybe even 50 times that number. Grok that next time you laud the heroes of the Hanoi Hilton.

The standard always given for torture by the pro torture crowd is simple: will the torture prevent the next attack? Will it save lives? By this standard, one would have to accept that "aggressive" questioning of downed pilots connected to an ongoing bombing campaign is not only right, but necessary. Needless to say, such logic is disastrously unethical, but that is the logic of the torture supporters. Their question should have been: was the torture of American pilots designed to save lives? Much is also made of the fact that the Vietnamese populace beat and humiliated downed pilots, and that the DRV paraded them for such treatment in the street, violating the (quaint) Geneva Convention. To listen to some of the revenge fantasies emanating from the right and all quarters of American society regarding 9/11, you'd have to think that such criticisms are a bit disingenuous. Imagine if a crew of hijackers had been caught on the ground on 9/11! Hell, Americans were attacking friggin' Sikhs in the days after 9/11. Imagine if an honest to goodness jihadi hijacker had landed in their midst!

I'm sorry to say this (not really), but I have a hard time calling pilots in actions like Rolling Thunder and its subsequent incarnations "heroes." Combat infantry and other land forces? Fine. But the pilots who bombed the DRV? Nope. Don't bother telling me about the flack corridors, either. They don't change my view of these actions.