So Iran is likely torturing or terrifying the Briton POW's. But we have justified it by doing it

[Flabbergasted]

ourself. Nice Job Bush. Notice Blair's use of the word manipulated instead of tortured.

Second captive Briton apologizes to Iran


By NASSER KARIMI Associated Press Writer
© 2007 The Associated Press

TEHRAN, Iran — A captive Royal Marine was shown in new TV footage Friday apologizing for being in Iranian waters, and Tehran made public a third letter supposedly written by the only woman prisoner among 15 Britons seized by Iran's Revolutionary Guards.

Britain sharply denounced Iran over the treatment of the captives — a clear sign both sides were hardening their stance as the crisis entered its second week.

Iran appeared intent on sending a message of strength as it faces mounting U.N. Nations sanctions over its uranium enrichment program, which the U.S. and other nations suspect the Islamic Republic is using to develop nuclear weapons.

Underlining Iran's hardline sentiment, some 60,000 soccer fans chanted "Death to Britain" at a match in Tehran, while 700 people rallying near Tehran University yelled "We condemn the British invasion!" A Muslim cleric told worshippers during Friday prayers that "Britain is an aggressor and Iran has confronted it."

In the latest video broadcast by Iranian state television, Royal Marine rifleman Nathan Thomas Summers was pictured while sitting with another male captive, both in fatigues, and female British sailor Faye Turney in a blue jumpsuit and a black head scarf.

The three were among 15 British sailors and marines detained by Iranian naval units March 23 while patrolling for smugglers near the mouth of the Shatt al-Arab, a waterway that has long been a disputed dividing line between Iraq and Iran.

"We trespassed without permission," Summers said in the video shown on Iran's Arabic-language channel Al-Alam. "I deeply apologize for entering your waters."

The video, the second broadcast of the detainees in three days, drew indignation from British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who accused Tehran of manipulating the prisoners.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4675876.html

[Warren Stupidity]

1. Actually we have no evidence that they are being tortured.

However parading them in front of the tv is wrong. As you say, we have no moral standing here, we tossed out the rules and now we are witnessing the blowback.

[Flabbergasted]

2. No but Iran has a history of torture and POWs never willingly admit that the reason

for their capture was legitimate

[Warren Stupidity]

8. Iran has a history of torturing POWs?

I tried to find this history and drew a complete blank. Please provide more information.

[Flabbergasted]

15. Here's four.....

http://citycalledhell.blogspot.com/2006/05/mia.html

http://www.pownetwork.org/444%20days.htm

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/06/07/iran8774.htm

http://auto_sol.tao.ca/node/view/1728

[Warren Stupidity]

16. Actually that would be one.

Your first link might have been a valid 'pow tortured' account, except it was a friend of a friend story and that is not exactly credible. I'll allow that the Iranians probably mistreated Iraqi POWs as the Iraqis undoubtedly mistreated Iranian POWs.

Next on you bring us, of course, the hostage crisis from the revolution. Not pows, arguably there wasn't even much in the way of an Iranian state at that point.

Then you provide the shocking news that Iran abuses its own political dissidents. Yes indeed it does, it is a miserable theocracy. Not a POW situation though.

Finally you end up with the fact that the grim theocracy murders people for being homosexual. Once again not a POW situation.

It simply is not a given, nor should it be assumed, that the 15 British POWs have been tortured by the Iranian government.

[Flabbergasted]

17. You are right on all that. But I still think the POW's are being "stimulated"

to confess. With a few days I bet I could develope a solid case but I'd need to really study.

[AZBlue]

22. Amnesty International certainly agrees with you!

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE130272007

And Ghazal Omid:
http://www.ghazalomid.com/petitionitem.php?petitionId=3

And the ISNA:
http://www.payvand.com/news/00/nov/1128.html

And Ervand Abrahamian
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/iss13/booknotes-Tortured.shtml

And I'm sure many others - that's just a few I found through Google.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. Again, the question here is can we assume Iran is torturing POWs

I certainly have not said 'Iran does not torture and abuse prisoners'. The specific case is the 15 British POWs and an assumption that they have been tortured. My claim is very specific: we cannot make that assumption based on past Iranian behavior. The closest one can come to documenting abuse by Iran of POWs would be incidents in the Iran-Iraq war, and most of the abuse there appears to have been by the Iraqis.

Why is this important? Because if our administration is determined to go to war against Iran then there will be a whole lot of 'dead kuwaiti incubator baby' type hysteria stories put forth to drum up that good old war fever. We need to resist that effort.

[Flabbergasted]

32. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I purposely never stated that Iran is torturing the POWs

however I think they are being propelled to confess.

[Warren Stupidity]

33. huh?

"So Iran is likely torturing or terrifying the Briton POW's"

The topic of your original message. I'm confused.

[Flabbergasted]

34. It was poorly worded I suppose. I was trying to distinguish between

torture and terrifying. i.e. a troop could be terrorized or threatened into confessing without being tortured.

[moodforaday]

29. It's not as wrong

as the keeping the kidnapped Iranian officials incommunicado. At least the families of the British soldiers can see that thay are doing okay, that they haven't been abused at least physically. As for the Iranians, nobody even knows where they are or if they are still alive.

[Wilber_Stool]

3. I doubt that they are being mistreated

in any way. The propaganda value of being the civilized one is much too great.

[Tempest]

6. Exactly

Putting them on camera was a smart move, but torturing them would be downright stupid.

[cali]

28. Recent history would indicate

that you could well be wrong. In 2004, after their release, 8 British sailors, captured by the Iranians in an incident much like the ongoing one, claimed that they had been put through mock executions. In any case, the inherent coerciveness of their situtation, the parading on TV, the refusal to allow outside contact with the Red Cross or emmissaries from the British Government, do not make a case for their being treated well. So, although I highly doubt that they are being physically tortured, one certainly can't rule out, threats and pressures.

[partylessinOhio]

4. Brits and US, you reap what you sow. Rather your grunts do.

Blair and Bush need to be removed before they start the Iran War. They have done everything they could to provoke a fight.

I dislike them both intensely.

Peace is the winner.

[Bitwit1234]

5. Blair participated in and approved of bush's rendering of prisoners and

he had the nerve to stand up in front of TV and say...this was a violation of the Geneva convention. Can you believe that. You are correct. They do it but no one else can.

[Tempest]

7. Iran counted on Blair doing just that

And Blair foolishly played right into their hands.

And by not torturing the sailors, Iran has claimed the high moral ground with Britain.

[stray cat]

9. If they are prisoners of war - Iran and Britain are at war

and the bombing can begin? Maybe they should be considered unwilling guests, criminals, terrorists or hostages? POW status requires an ongoing war

[Warren Stupidity]

13. Actually I think they can be POWs even if the two nations are

not in a declared war. I could be wrong, but what else would the status of uniformed military personel be who are captured in a military operation?

[gratuitous]

10. The perpetrators of the war crime are off the hook

But it will be the British sailors who pay the price for Bush's and Blair's crimes. Sweet deal if you can get it, I suppose, to let someone else pay the penalty.

Blair and Bush should be thankful right about now that images of naked sailor pyramids and sailors standing hooded and hooked up to electrodes aren't being published all over the world. Not to mention photos of sailors tortured to death with their captors grinning for the camera and giving a thumbs up. Would they have the nerve to call the Iranians barbarians? Or would they be shamed by the derisive laughter coming from the rest of the world?

[onenote]

11. I don't know that they are, but it wouldn't be "justified" in any case

Unless you are firm believer in the two wrongs make a right theory of life.

[Flabbergasted]

12. The Geneva convention is worthless.

[mitchtv]

18. Fredo? is that you?

Hahaha

[smalll]

14. In some ways, the Iranians are being far too lenient with those prisoners -

Sure, they make that British servicewoman wear a head-scarf, which seems rather unfair, but on the other hand, they let her SMOKE ON CAMERA! Indoors! NO one in this country gets to do that, except for maybe the occasional superstar who lights up on Letterman or something. :crazy:

[Colobo]

19. I know this might not be a popular position over here, but...

Fuck Ahmadinejad.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Whatever floats your boat.

I personally do not find him attractive at all. On the other hand I am highly suspicous that we are being manipulated into buying into another chapter in the PNAC war plan and consequently think we here ought to not fall for or engage in fear mongering hate talk.

[bemildred]

23. Actually, it's quite a popular position here. nt

[Flabbergasted]

24. That was my first thought as well.

[AZBlue]

21. I don't think that does justify it.

I've heard some say that our brand of torture is justified by others' torture of our soldiers - it's a never-ending vicious circle. Nothing justifies it by anyone.

[TankLV]

25. Yep - that just about sums it up.

I don't want to hear SQUAT from these WAR CRIMINALS about any alleged abuse of their soldiers.

These hypocrits have absolutely NO legs to stand on.

They can just shut the fuck up.

Still is a rotten situation - but he blame rests squarely on bunkerboy and his poodle...

[sanskritwarrior]

26. Doesn't that make the Iranians

worse than us by doing it themselves. They know we do it, so they get in the mud with us and do it themselves? How exactly does that make sense.......

[Nutmegger]

27. This is why the adhering to the Geneva Conventions is so important.

This is why we must shut down GITMO, black sites, rendition, waterboarding and all the other treacherous acts of torture that they commit in our name.

[seabeyond]

31. as my fox news watching repug brother says.... we have ALWAYS tortured

and we have to torture. tit for tat... no any repug has any right to point the finger at another nation that tortures. as they say, it is what war is about.

that good ole long term thinking.