Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login

Pod People been yapping "socialism" at you? Nick Dupree has the reply.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
Cell Whitman Donating Member (872 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 03:23 AM
Original message
Pod People been yapping "socialism" at you? Nick Dupree has the reply.
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 03:48 AM by Cell Whitman
Dupree did a post on universal health care, as only he can, and of course some anon wingnut screamed "socialism" like a trained dog in the comments. Nick clobbered the pod poodle in a reply that included quoting that well known "socialist" - Moses. :7

here's an excerpt but the whole post is worth reading and saving...imho

....Those who would label universal health care socialism would likely also label universal education socialism, and almost all government socialist. They believe government should not tax you to distribute money elsewhere, the very point of having a government. So they have left our infrastructure in tatters, our bridges unsafe, our children uneducated, our disabled left in their own feces. This ideology declares war on the social contract; it seeks to melt the very glue that binds society together, and has been frighteningly successful.

To those who do not believe in government helping people, and have left our citizens to the jungle, I say your ways have proven destructive, please step aside and let those who believe in government begin to repair the damage.

Giving people the care they need is not socialism, it's Judaism. It's Christianity. It's Buddhism. It's Islam. It's mandated by nearly every religious tradition and moral code, going back to the Code of Hammurabi: "to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land so that the strong should not harm the weak." There is separation of church and state, but there should never be separation of decency and state, especially in a democracy, where the sovereign IS the people, and the government an expression of their will.

It was Moses who said "If there be among you a needy man, one of thy brethren, within any of thy gates, in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thy heart, nor shut thy hand from thy needy brother; but thou shalt surely open thy hand unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need in that which he wants" (Deut. 15: 7-8) it wasn't Karl Marx who said that.

And government should never be a foreign body walled off from the pain of its employers, the people. The government should provide for the basic decency that morality demands, or we better change governments! ...

......check out his closing line at the link :7

oh, and if you are not familiar with Nick check this out...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. You are a kind person CW~~
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 03:39 AM by larissa

I'm glad you're here to teach us more about this important issue~~~
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 03:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. U.S. is the largest "socialist" government in the world, anyway.
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 03:49 AM by Hissyspit
Depending on how you define socialism, what kind of socialism, and what measurement you mean by large.

How good we are at doing it is open to debate, though.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. Very good rebuttal
I'll have to remember that.

Here's more about the social contract, from the late great Steve Kangas:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. The guy has some chops, thanks.
:kick: & R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. To which they always reply, 'But the Bible never said to use the gov't for that giving and that
the gov't is stealing our money and our right to charitable giving and our chance to score some points with the bgi guy upstairs."

Etc, etc, bloody boring etc
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. And yet they say that governments have the right /duty to impose the death penalty, regulate private
sexual behaviour, etc.

Homosexuality is a sin, and any government that sanctions it is sinful.

Greed is a sin, but it is up to the individual, and the government should not intervene.

All of which seems totally inconsistent and nonsensical to me, but it's what you get if you challenge a Christian-Right type about morality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. Freepers only read headlines.
They don't want to be seen as "intellectually elite".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. i don't think it takes a freeper to see that our gov't is doing more harm than good. eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Felinity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. How to Fight Back & K&R & Bookmarked
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 09:15 AM by Felinity
Edit for title clarity.

The RW use of language, repetition, and "marketing triggers" (I'm sure there's an official word for it, please inform me if you've got one) is OUTSTANDING. They are experts at it. They understand how to program the subconscious and use it against you.

The problem is, If the Dems take the high road (which is actually easier for them, since they have not mastered the Rovian/Neocon brainwashing strategy), we'll probably get run over by the Steamroller that pretends to be RW discourse. If we take the low road we will either lose to the Masters of the Canine eats Canine politics, or end up with one hell of a lot of fleas.

The only answer as far as I can see is to fight, FIGHT, FIGHT them every time they try to hijack a word or a principle. The Democrats, whenever they get a public forum, need to bring this issue up, every time.

"They are playing mind games with you people. Don't listen passively to what they are saying. Are they talking about a real issue, like the war, or health care, or middle class weakening in America; or are they talking about some vague, knee-jerking, hot button issue that won't solve any of our problems? Are they trying to program you to a negative view of something, while completely redefining that concept in a negative light? The Neocons are Pavlov, and if you accept what they are telling you without harsh inspection, you are one of their dogs."

Okay, I won't apply for a speech-writing job, but you get the idea. We cannot overcome this kind of Bullshit propaganda without bringing it center stage and shining a great big, 10,000 watt halogen on their "slight of mind".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
9. That's a good response. But I think it also helps to state what socialism IS...
Socialism is the idea that the means of production may not be freely traded, but its ownership must be restricted by legal mechanism either to those who labor with those means, or more realistically, to government entities allegedly representing those who labor. Neither public education nor single-payer health care are socialism. Moves toward socialism are:

* limiting the sale or collateralization of businesses to outside parties,
* nationalizing industry,
* elimination of commercial banks, and other private entities that capitalize, merge, & liquidate businesses,
* elimination of publicly owned and traded corporations, i.e., company stock,

Being a liberal, I think it is very important to maintain a healthy, capitalist economy. Unlike most freepers, I know what that means.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. What nonsense! The banks in the UK were not nationalised under
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 02:06 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
our Socialist Governments - more's the pity; nor the stock and commodities markets eliminated. We did quite well, you know. It wasn't such a bad welfare state. Certainly, a whole lot better than we have today, after the rampant vandalism of a singularly unhealthy capitalism was given the green light.

Here is an enlightening excerpt from literature of The Maoist Internationalist Movement, concerning such differences, from the far left to the centre left. (It does not mean of course that the Maoists' own doctrine is necessarily as sensible).

"Socialists and communists existed before Marx. Marx is the single most-respected authority and reference point, but the words "socialism" and "communism" still have various shades and applications, because of the diversity amongst those calling themselves "communist" and "socialist."

Many calling themselves socialist would like to stop with the nationalization of the means of production and not move on to communism. They also often oppose the "dictatorship of the proletariat" in the name of democracy. For example, they supported the imperialist World War I, because the majorities of their countries supported it, while we Marxist-Leninists found World War I anathema to the proletariat, against survival "rights."

Since World War I, there has been a very large split between many calling themselves "socialist" and those calling themselves "communist;" however, to make matters more complicated there are socialists found who would not support World War I today and there are "communists" who would favor doing whatever the majority wants. There are also "social-democrats" who want reforms to imitate the results of socialism while keeping capitalism.

An extraordinary spectrum, but surely not more so than the chaotic, insatiable greed for ever-growing profits of the essential capitalism of today's corporatists - which is, in fact, a flim-flam name for precisely that: the violent, unmitigated greed and narcissism of the psycopath.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
dalaigh lllama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
10. What a timely post for me. Thank you!
We were just having this argument a few days ago with a beloved but stubborn conservative. I have printed out this article for his perusal, as he is one who has a knee-jerk reaction to universal health care = socialism = BAD, in his opinion.

Loved the last line.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
12. I'm never timid when I'm accused of being a socialist.
I always say of course I'm a socialist, and Jesus was a socialist, because he believed in taking care of those who could not take care of themselves, without judging the reason why.

Capitalism without a healthy infusion of socialism is harmful, because it brings out the predatory nature of the worst among us, and seeks to squash the inherent decent instincts to take care of each other. Thus we have the recent headline of SIXTEEN MILLION PEOPLE in America living in severe poverty -- SEVERE POVERTY! -- while CEO's are enjoying record highs of wealth.

Socialism is empathy and compassion. Please, right-winger, call me a socialist. I take it as the highest compliment. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
bperci108 Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Amen to that.
The inevitable end result of Capitalism is fascism; at it's core it is social Darwinism - the survival (economically) of the "fittest".

OTOH - Socialism's core is democracy, without that particular root, it can't survive.

Probably not a popular sentiment around here, but what can I say but... :hide:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. I'm with you, Straight Shooter
I am not ashamed of being a socialist (and can't understand why any rational person should be)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thanks.
I suspect if "socialism" had not been turned into a dirty word by the right wing, a lot of people would realize that they lean more toward socialism than strict adherence to capitalism. It's hard to feel good about one's own situation when others are suffering. And there but for the grace of God, (or the blessings of the Universe), go I.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Sep 20th 2017, 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC