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Obama is NOT Black according to Debra Dickerson

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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:16 PM
Original message
Obama is NOT Black according to Debra Dickerson
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 02:17 PM by jenmito
You GOTTA see this interview of Debra Dickerson by Stephen Colbert. It is so funny. Colbert points out the ridiculousness of her argument. You can see it here (you have to scroll down under his main video to see the interview. There's a picture of Dickerson):

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_colbert_report/i...
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bad link n/t
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It works ok for me
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It should work now. n/t
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'll watch it on TiVo when I get home
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Colbert is SOOO clever. He called the piece "Black Unlike Me." n/t
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 02:21 PM by jenmito
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. But according to limbaugh, Sherrod Brown is
Sometimes you need a scorecard to keep the fucking "conservative" morons straight.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I remember that...
But Dickerson is Black and says the definition of "Black" is being a descendant of slaves. Colbert rips her apart in a funny way.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Yea, I guess Sherrod Brown is an over-rated Senator because he's black
Poor Mike DeWine got picked on by the media because he's white.

:rofl:
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Well you know the media just wanted Brown to succeed because he is black
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kaygore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. I agree. I was laughing so hard, I could barely breathe.
Last night was a classic Colbert. One of the best yet!
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Same here...
He confused her. She even said so. :D
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Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. She is "SORTA" correct.
I mean, he is not African-American in the traditional sense of the word. His mother is white and his father is from Africa. And he sort of grew up all over the place.

It's not as though he's the descendant of slaves or is 100% MADE IN USA.

That being said, you'll never hear me debating whether or not he's black, haha.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. SHE said he's not BLACK...
And do oyou think a cop wouldn't stop him for "driving while Black" if he wasn't so well known? I wasn't aware that to be Black you have to have been a descendant of slaves. Not arguing with you, but DD.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. her thesis is pretty silly
If, to be "black" in America you have to be the descendant of slaves, wouldn't that mean that in order to be "white" you'd have to be the descendant of American slaveowners? That anyone who is the descendant of immigrants who came to this country after the Emancipation Proclamation has a different "culture" and "experience" than "white" Americans, just as she claims that because Obama's father immigrated here after slavery had ended, Obama has a different "culture" and "experience" from "black" Americans?

Kinda goofy.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Not to mention divisive, callous, rude, bigoted, and irrelevant.
As far as most American voters are concerned, Obama is black, period end of story. Every black person has their own unique history, just as everyone else does. I have come up against this kind of BS all my life, and I am a descendant of slaves on my father's side and I grew up in a segregated neighborhood. But I don't talk like someone might expect me to. And I have an excellent education and I am married to someone who is not black. Do I fit her criteria? Am I black enough for Debra Dickerson? Who the hell cares? What makes her the preeminent expert on who is black enough to be called black? Or who was slave enough to be called African American? If she was white and saying this, we would all wanna throw rotten tomatoes. Don't cut her any slack just because she is a black woman making a culturally offensive charge. Who is this woman and why does her opinion matter to anybody?
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I'm not sure what to make of her argument...
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 03:37 PM by spooky3
I've only listened to the interview; I haven't read her book, so I am asking from ignorance, I guess. Doesn't she have a legitimate point to the extent that the point is that the backgrounds of people who have not descended from slaves is different from those who have? Where she loses me, and I am happy to be corrected, is going so far as to not allow Obama to call himself "black" and to apparently deny the extent to which she has a shared experience with him in that others in their past and current lives have treated them less well simply on the basis of their apparent "blackness" (vs. how they may treat whites). The only analogy I can think of is a person who changes genders. If someone is now female, it is appropriate to call her that, and people now react to her as a female (meaning, for example, she may also experience unfair discrimination) even though one could legitimately point out ways in which her life may have differed from that of women who did not undergo a gender change.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
54. That's where she loses me, too. We all have different life experiences. Some of us are Oprahs and
some of us never live a day outside the hood. So who is the bonafide 'black'? Obama's ancestors may not have been slaves, but how in the world does that make him not black, except according to that woman's own stereotyping criteria?

I don't know, I just look at it a whole other way. I see myself as one with all the oppressed people of the world throughout all of history, from the slaves of biblical Egypt to Chinese female babies in the 21st century, to Native Americans decimated to make this nation, to the Irish who suffered the 'potato famine' and sought refuge here, to the Armenian victims of genocide at the hands of the Turks 100 years ago, to Jews in the Holocaust, to gays who are driven to depression and suicide, to the people left behind after Hurricane Katrina. To me, they are all my people. I've got all of their backs. There has been so much oppression and persecution, who am I to say anybody hasn't suffered the right way or long enough to belong to my club? And who the hell is Debra Dickerson? And what the hell is her point?

No one group has cornered the market on suffering, and neither has she. And if someone is fortunate enough to never have known oppression and can still identify, then I consider them my brother or sister, too. There is just no need for this divisiveness, not for this lame reason anyway.

I wonder if she considers C*ndi black.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Go go go!!!
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Is it possible that he's not culturally "black"?
In the same way that Condaleeza Rice and Colin Powell are not culturally black and are therefore acceptable to the GOP. I think there is the start of a valid arguement there.

Of course this is all beyond my skill set. Anybody?
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. What is "culturally black?"
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 04:12 PM by beaconess
Powell and Rice are acceptable to the GOP, not because they are not "culturally black" but because they share their political philosophy.
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Fair enough, I'll pretend ignorance and ignore
issues like, accents, vocabulary, religion and artistic preference that might allow some republican white people to feel that some people like Condaleeza Rice and Colin Powell are not "really black."

It's a mistaken assumption from a converstation I overheard.

Excuse me for stepping into your minefield.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. There are plenty of blacks - including myself
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 05:39 PM by beaconess
whose speech (absent of any "black" dialect"), vocabulary ("articulate" - ha ha), religion (Catholic) and artistic preference (I love classical music, Patsy Cline, show tunes and Picasso) might not be considered "culturally black" by some people. And even though I consider myself able to fit in anywhere, I sincerely doubt that I would ever be fully embraced by the Republican establishment (nor would I want to be) because I do not share their political philosophy.

I believe that Rice and Powell are considered "not really black," partly because of their "cultural" leanings, but the real reason they are so readily accepted is that they have bought in to their political philosophy.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. You are absolutely right and you are not alone.
:hug:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. HALLO!!!
:hi:
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Hallo right back atcha!
:hi:
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
65. Cool!
I'm black and I like classical music and Patsy Cline as well not to mention alternative rock and Britpop. If you heard me on the phone you would think I was Caucasian.

By the way, Debra Dickerson is full of shit. Obama himself has said if was arrested for a crime and his mug shot was shown on television, no one would be saying he's not really black or questioning his "blackness." He would be just another black man going to jail.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #65
74. Ain't that the truth.
The racist who robbed Bill Cosby's son didn't take the time to check his economic status before killing him.

Too much of America still sees us as black first and makes all value judgments affecting us based upon that characterization - until we get past that, claiming that a brown-skinned person shouldn't call themselves black is ridiculous.
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. HIs father is from the African country of Kenya
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 03:03 PM by SemperEadem
the difference being his father knew his own country of origin. Therefore, techincally, Obama is Kenyan-American.... as those of us Americans who are descended from African slaves know, our ancestors never had their country of origin recorded because they were considered chattel. However, this woman is still wrong--because Obama would still be considered black by anyone who sees/speaks with him. He would still be exposed to the same experiences other black men are exposed to in this society. She is stupid for holding such a divisive viewpoint and her being called out and made to look like a fool for the position she's trying to put forth was her karma justice. Obama has no problem being considered African American, so why should she? It doesn't diminish anyone else.

I'm just sick of Obama being made a lightening rod for people with half-baked notions and neurosis about him possibly being the next president. Good for Colbert for calling her stupidity out and spanking it good.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. Right!
One of the things I love about Colbert is that he doesn't fear calling out black people when they do/say something stupid. Unfortunately, a lot of white journalists, interviewers, etc. either know so little about blacks that they can't challenge those of us who are idiots or they are too afraid of offending people.

But black folk are just as diverse as whites - and some of us are just downright nuts and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
55. Great post...
Her argument was ridiculous which was proven by Colbert making such great points: If he's not Black, why doesn't he run as a White guy? We know White people vote for White people and Black people vote for White people, but we don't know how many White people would vote for Black people..." Good for him!
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. My son is applying to college, so I have been reading some
college message boards. My son is half-Filipino so I have been frequenting some threads about race and ethnicity in college admissions.

The admissions officers seem to largely operate on the assumption that true African-Americans are descended from slaves. Their logic seems to be that more recent immigrants from Africa and the Carribean suffer from the same daily discrimination and racism as do true "AA" (as they abbreviate it), but do not suffer the psychological effects of the legacy of slavery. These officers say that the average incomes of immigrants from Africa and the Carribean is quite a bit higher though they do not get into why that is. In terms of college admissions, they try to tilt in favor of true AA's, over immigrants, though these days affirmative action in college admissions is under attack.

As for Obama, I agree with most that it is up to him to determine his ethnicity. My son can tell people he is Filipino, White, or anything else as far as I am concerned (he has small amount of Native American and Black in him as well.)
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. There was a bit of a scandal a year or two ago over Ivy League
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 04:30 PM by igil
admissions and affirmative action.

Somebody asked who was benefiting from affirmative action. And nobody--and I mean *nobody*--liked the answer.

A wildly disproportionate number of "blacks" admitted to Ivy League schools under affirmative action stood a good chance of getting admitted anyway. Their parents were upper middle class or above, they went to very good public and private schools, had good test scores and applications, and were born to immigrants. "Affirmative action" points just guaranteed these kids would be admitted.

Then there were the other black admits. Most of them were the kids of black professionals, kids of blacks that were helped--or not--by affirmative action. Again, they fit the general description of Ivy League students fairly well, if you ignore skin melanin levels.

Few met the description of an "average" African-American 18 year old, and fewer yet were from communities that could still be considered to be suffering "from the legacy of slavery and discrimination", what affirmative action was intended to address.

It caused a re-evaluation of affirmative action at Ivy League schools. SES and geography started to count a lot, lot more.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Sources/links?
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Here's one.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. This article doesn't support your claim that a "wildly disproportionate number "
of privileged blacks are receiving "affirmative action points" at Ivy League Schools or that such schools "reevaluated affirmative action."

It says, instead, that "{m}ore than a quarter - and in some cases nearly half - of black students at selective American colleges and universities are first- or second-generation immigrants" and says that some sociologists (not the study itself) claim that this data calls into question "the criteria and purpose behind many education-related affirmative action programs as well as the way diversity is often presented at American universities.

"'If you're a purist, then you'll think that (this discovery) is not in the spirit of affirmative action. But if you're a diversity purist, and your idea is to expose everybody to as many different kinds of people as possible, then you'll think this is great,' Charles told the Chronicle of Higher Education in an article appearing this week."

Sorry, but this article does not support your claim.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. I wasn't using that study in my post. Igil was.
I found another link from Diverse - Issues in Higher Education.

http://www.diverseeducation.com/artman/publish/article_...

"More than 40 percent of the Black population at Ivy League colleges are of immigrant origin, despite comprising just 13 percent of the Black population overall."

(As far as I, a white guy, am concerned it matters little if affirmative action benefits descendants of slaves or immigrants.)

"The researchers also found few differences in socioeconomic origins between Black immigrant and Black American student groups, except for the fact that Black immigrant fathers were far more likely to have graduated from college than native fathers."

(It states that many of the immigrant fathers had originally come to the US to attend college. )

"For affirmative action values, its problematic" "But if diversity is what most matters, then this is interesting but not any cause for alarm."

Black is black for purposes of having a diverse campus. Affirmative action to compensate for the psychological effects of slavery makes immigrants and their children replacing the descendants of slaves, at least a little problematic.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Do these studies show what proportion of these students were admitted through affirmative action?
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 05:46 PM by beaconess
And I don't agree with your conclusion that the only proper purpose for affirmative action is to "compensate for the psychological effects of slavery." Affirmative action has several purposes, but it is not designed to provide psychological compensation for slavery. Among other things, affirmative action helps to ensure that all qualified people get a fair opportunity to compete - often, without affirmative action, qualified minorities would never be considered.

Another very important goal of affirmative action is to ensure diversity - the same goal as other forms of non-racial affirmative action (geographic preferences, talent considerations, etc.)

I come from a very privileged background. But without affirmative action, I would never have been able to compete fairly because, regardless of my qualifications, I would not have been given an opportunity. In every job I held in my early professional career, I was the first black - and this wasn't because I was the first qualified black person ever to apply for any of these positions. It was because the companies I worked for had begun affirmative action programs that ensured that their managers and executives made the effort to consider qualified blacks instead of continuing their practice of not even interviewing us.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. I didn't express myself very clearly.
I did not mean to leave the impression that I thought that affirmative action should be solely to compensate for the effects of slavery. Diversity is an equally important goal, for Blacks but also for the Whites, Hispanics, Asians and others on campus who gain from the presence of Blacks on campus.

You are much more qualified than I to judge the balance in the implementation of affirmative action. Thanks for the discussion.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. thank YOU
Open discussions about this issue are so important and I appreciate your willingness to do it. Usually I find that the deeper the discussio goes, the more lkely we are to find we're not so far apart after all!
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
77. Was away.
OK, a quarter of the affirmative action admits were first/second generation.

What percentage of the black population are immigrants, their kids or grandkids? A quarter? Hardly. I'd guess a few percentage points--with Haitians, Jamaicans, and Cubans at the top of the list. So there's probably an order of magnitude difference, if we go with a quarter of the admits being first/second generation, and perhaps 20 times what you'd expect in other colleges. You expect them to be 3-5 out of a hundred, you get 25 to 50 out of a hundred.

A few times what's expected is disproportionate, and disproportionality of that magnitude has been used to prove discrimination in the courts. An order of magnitude, even up to 20x what's expected is, to my mind, "wildly disproportionate". Especially when the goal of affirmative action is not to help the children or grandchildren of immigrants of the last 40 years, since civil rights were extended, but, again, those whose families have suffered from the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. Ivy League colleges were embarrassed that instead of helping those they claimed to help, they were helping people that looked the same but had different demographic profiles.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. He IS African-American. He's just not descended from slaves
All blacks are not African-American.
All African-Americans are not black.
All descendants of slaves are black.
All blacks are not descended from slaves.

Confusing?

1. Examples of African-Americans who are descended from slaves: Me. Lena Horne. Ed Brooke. Kobe Bryant. George Washington Carver. Raven-Symone.

2. Examples of African-Americans who are NOT descended from slaves: Barack Obama . . . Freddy Adu

3. Examples of blacks who are not African-American: Colin Powell . . . Roberto Clemente . . . (although it could be argued that there was an African somewhere in their heritage, so you decide)

4. Examples of African-Americans who are not black: Marsha Philips (my best friend in high school who was born here shortly after her white Afrikaner parents emigrated from South Africa).

This is SO confusing - it was so much easier when we were just "negro."

:sarcasm:
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. I don't know if the whole post is sarcasm, or just the last statement...
I do find this "debate" if you could call it that, rather silly, but I just wanted to point out this:

All descendants of slaves are black.

Uhm, just one little quibble about this, but there are plenty of people who look like WASPs that are also descended from slaves in America. There has been a lot of time between now and then, and plenty of descendants of slaves "passed for white" and married into white families. Fast forward 150 years or so, any any outward physical characteristics that are stereotypical to African Americans may no longer be present.

I'm not saying they suffer from the same legacy of discrimination or the legacy of slavery, just that to take the quote above as a statement of fact is incorrect.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. This was partially tongue-in-cheek
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 05:20 PM by beaconess
The descriptions were accurate, but designed to show how ridiculous the whole argument is.

You are correct that many slave descendants "passed" for white and blended into white society. But they're still black - they are just pretending not to be. And their children still have black blood, whether or not they know it.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. I always get a kick out of someone having black blood.
I am 1/64 black and my son is 1/128 black. Obviously am not just "passing" for white, I am white (well 1/64 Native American, as well). What is the skin tone or ancestral percentage breakpoints where you make the transition from being black to "passing" to just plain ol' white? Somewhere among my ancestors they made the transition from "passing" to actually white (unless you are going to give me that "if you have one drop of Black blood" rule.)
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. That's where this gets ridiculous
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 06:07 PM by beaconess
To some people, the one drop that you have has so "tainted" you that you can never remove the stain of your blackness. To others, its a wonderful flavoring that God gave you to richen and sweeten your blood. :-)

I have a lot of mixed marriages in my family and as children we were always confused about why the cousins who looked white were considered black, while the ones who actually had more white blood than they did but had darker skin were also considered black. And to outsiders who didn't know we were related, and who were just judging based on appearance, our lighter cousins were white and we were black. We spent a lot of time trying to figure out why we were treated differently because of skin color, even when it conflicted with our actual genetic makeup. My lighter-skinned cousins probably had a harder time because, although they were usually treated better because they were assumed to be white, they often felt guilty if someone assumed they were white - and felt obligated to announce their "blackness" so that whites didn't think they were trying to fool them and blacks didn't think they were trying to "pass."

We finally just realized that the country was screwed up and then went right on about our business . . .

So, my vaguely nubian brother/sister . . . you're not alone in your confusion.
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carolinayellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Probably most descendants of free blacks from colonial times...
are now "white" and have no idea of their heritage. I found four different lines of "free mulatto" ancestry from colonial records, all families that were "white" from 1790 on. DNA testing showed a 4-1 ratio of Native American to African heritage, so I guess I'll claim all three in the 2010 census. But without an interest in genealogy I'd never have learned of any of this. With every new generation, the percentage of multiracial Americans increases.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. Of course, that then gets into the whole muddled issue of defining race...
For example, a genetic survey was conducted in Great Britain a few years ago, and it was found that many Britons, a good fraction of the population in fact, have many genetic markers that were identical to certain genotypes from North Africa. They were able to date it, through genetic drift, to about the 1st-3rd centuries AD, about the same time Rome dominated the southern half of the British Isles. They attribute these similarities with Roman soldiers who "went local" many of those soldiers hailed from some of the most southern of provinces, and they settled in Britain, married local women, and stayed ever since.

The Spanish are another example of race as social construct, they are a mix of several different ethnic groups, over a period of centuries, Moors, Arabs, Visigoths, etc. have all mixed together to produce the modern example of the "Spaniard".

This sort of brings up all sorts of questions, for example, how far back in ancestry does racial identity hold true, is it one generation, 2, 3, 10?

Not to mention Mitochondrial DNA, which, when traced back means EVERY human being on the planet traces their ancestry to Africa, and, for some reason, I do not think that proverbial "Eve" was white. So, is everybody black?
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
68. Nope - not at all.
My husband is white - but he's an African-American. He was born in Africa and was naturalized here when he was 3 years old.

Just wanted to chime in. I'll continue to read. It's an interesting discussion.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. "He could be Jesse Jackson's slave..." LOL! That was good. Thanks for posting.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. OR Al Sharpton's. :)
No problemo! :hi:
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Did you understand where that woman was coming from? I don't. What was her point?
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
56. She was trying to make an argument that
if you don't descend from slaves, you're not Black. I call it divisive. Maybe she's a Conservative trying to turn "real" Black people against him?
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. She's conservative in a sense of protecting entrenched power elites
Obama is very much a threat to the existing African American political establishment, most of whom have hitched their wagons to another horse. The mumbling about "not really black" is infantile, if not downright Bidenesque. Race does not make one destined to have one personality or one set of political views. I would prefer to judge Obama by the content of his character and the wisdom of his policy proposals. Arguments about a man's blackness, or any other valuation of race over the individual, are worth horseshit.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. I agree...
And Colbert made the very point that YOU did about the content of his character... :hi:
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #66
73. Who in the "existing African American political establishment" is mumbling that Obama's not really
black? Please name names.

And just who is the "existing African American political establishment" anyway?
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. Her point is minutia.
I thought she was full of crap and not helping the discussion that is so important now with the KKK on the rise. Damn, if the black community is going to pick nits, the possible nomination of the first Black candidate will be for naught.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Fortunately for all of us, she's not the black community
She's just an idiot.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. thank you
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 05:16 PM by AtomicKitten
always good to have a check on a gut reaction
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
48. You've read her book?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Yes, I have - along with many of her other writings
And while her points are sometimes well-taken, other ideas are nuts, in my view. But I was wrong to call her an "idiot." She certainly is not - in fact, she's very bright and provocative, if sometimes out there - and I should not have said that.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
58. I agree...
I'm so glad Colbert confused her like he did. :D
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. That was Colbert at his finest!
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 10:17 PM by AtomicKitten
He really is brilliant.

On edit: He did a good job dismantling Dinesh Souza too!
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
38. If Bill Clinton can be black why not Obama?
:crazy:
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
47. I see a lot of posts dissing the idea and thinking Colbert was
"pointing out" how stupid the notion is.

Anyone who holds either of these positions simply doesn't understand what Dickerson was talking about, and it's not like Colbert gave her much of a chance to adequately explain it.

I would suggest for anyone TRULY interested in know what Dickerson is saying, that you read her book. THAN criticize her and her ideas if you want.

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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. She can argue that he's not African-American...
but how can she argue he's not BLACK? I don't care what her reasoning is. He's black-that's his "color" that the cops see when he's driving. That's the color the store owners see when he's in an expensive store. That's the color the employers see when he applies for a job. That's the color landlords see when he applies for housing. But now that he's well known, he won't have many of these problems. But I'm sure some still prejudiced people will not vote for him simply befcause he is Black.
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #60
76. Well, you ought to care what her reasoning is if for no other reason
than to have an INFORMED opinion on the matter.

Hint: she wasn't talking about his skin color.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
53. Many blacks in the US are not "African-American"
There are many blacks from Latin America here, me included, and blacks from the Caribbean and Africa that do not share culture and history with African-Americans. Still, we are still black and live in this nation, and we experience racism and discrimination as well.

Do you think a racist person cares whether a black person was born here or not?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
57. Obama is not Black, he is biracial like Tiger Woods
This argument that a person of multi-ethnic background must embrace one ethnicity over the other is pure racism at its best.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. We would call Obama
A "mulato" in Latin America.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Mulato is a bad word nowadays
The fact is that most people in Latin America are of mixed ethnicity, and what a beautiful mix it is! It is only the elites that pride themselves in their European blood and look down on the brown masses.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. Perhaps we could call him a DemiMoor!
Surely that would make everyone happy.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. Yep
Beautiful mix indeed, and it is also true that the Euro-Latin American elite looks down on us. However, in Latin America "mulato" is not considered offensive at all.

In fact, it makes a point down there. It embraces both heritages.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Mulato only applied to white European and Black African ethnicity, while
it is more common to see multiple ethnicity that includes Indian blood as well. Interesting how we use the term Native American to refer to North American natives previously referred to as "Indians," while in Latin America the term Indian is quite appropriate as part of ethnic heritage.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #70
75. Aren't many Native Americans beginning to embrace "Indian" again? nt
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #57
72. Who says anyone MUST embrace one ethnicity over another?
Edited on Sat Feb-10-07 07:24 AM by beaconess
No one has forced Obama to identify himself in any particular way. HE has chosen to self-identify as black, just as Tiger Woods has chosen to self-identify as multi-racial. Why not just respect how HE chooses to identify himself and leave it at that?

A person of mixed race who is, by all appearances, black is certainly not off-base so identifying themselves, especially since the rest of the world will stick him into that category anyway.

In fact, most blacks in American, with few exceptions, are technically mixed-race, thanks in large part to the fact that slaveholders weren't as anti-miscegenistic as they claimed to be (at least when it came to their own proclivities). But for all intents and purposes in America, if we have enough black blood to darken our melanin, we are black - and treated as such by the rest of the country (often the same people who then complain that we call ourselves black).

I've always been amused when white people (and I'm not saying you do this) get upset when blacks characterize ourselves as black or African-American or anything else, as if it was US who invented racial classification. Since we were dragged to these shores, blacks have always been singled out - and in most cases, completely defined - by our race. We were pickaninnies, darkies, coons, colored, negro, black, nigras and worse, when all we wanted to be was just "American." But after a couple of centuries of being called everything but our name, we finally said, "OK, if we're going to be defined by our race, WE will decide what to be called." Over time, the term "African-American" became the description of choice for most (although not all) of us, used interchangeably with "black."

And lo and behold, we are now consistenly bombarded with complaints from whites who demand to know "Why do you separate yourselves like that?! You're not from AFRICA! Why not just say AMERICAN?"

I think it's pretty hilarious.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
59. I think she's jealous because Obama could become Stephen Colbert's
latest new black friend and she wants dibs on that honor. :dunce:

Seriously, this is foolishness. Alan Keyes was spouting the same crap when he ran against Obama for the Senate.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
64. Remember Bob Dornan claimed to be more hispanic than Rep. Sanchez
Quick recap - he was beat by Rep. Sanchez - he runs against her the next election - and claims that b/c his farrightreligious leanings put him more in line with the Catholicism of the Latinos in the district than Rep. Sanchez and thus "he was more hispanic". Outcome? He was trounced and most folks have forgotten him. She, years later, still represents the district.
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