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War with Iran ? .... Only if the insane Neocons ignore the Joint Chiefs

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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:13 PM
Original message
War with Iran ? .... Only if the insane Neocons ignore the Joint Chiefs
Edited on Tue Dec-19-06 10:22 PM by Trajan
Much has been said about the US naval buildup near Iran in the Persian Gulf, and it is important to note a few facts that might clear the air of speculation surrounding this provocative decision.

I am of the mind that this is nothing more than old-fashioned gunboat 'diplomacy', and that it is not intended to provoke direct conflict with Iran, but to only puff up the egos of pResident codpiece and his neocon minions ... a pretense of a 'tough' posture ...

That being said; it could escalate through accident (second-worst case), or through an intentional decision of neocon policy (worst case) .... Either way, IF such an escalation occurred, it would have catastrophic consequences for the region, for american foreign policy, for american military stature and effectivness, and for our international standing, for decades to come ...

I do not think the US Military will permit that escalation, and here is why:

1) The Irani military is much stronger than the withered and reduced forces of the Iraqi Republican guard, and hence, would withstand a direct assault of an invasionary force far longer, and with far greater loss to the invading troops than that which was seen in the Iraq 'Cakewalk' of March 2003.

Furthermore, the Irani military are a tighter force; more disciplined, more fanatically dedicated to their national cause than the deteriorated conscripts of Iraq ... They have more powerful mechanized divisions, with a stronger command structure that has not been hampered in the purchase of third party communications systems that could withstand the first volleys expected in an invasion ... With a standing army of nearly one million troops, they present a challenge that I am sure has the Joint Chiefs wringing their hands in concern ... This would be much harder than Iraq, by far ....

2) The US Military with it's co-called 'coalition' forces combined are at this time stymied in Iraq; unable to produce longstanding results with a force of approximately 150,000 total troops, and they seem unable to develop a plan that could solidify whatever 'gains' they intend to achieve with the number of troops they have committed to this effort. In short, they are 'tapped out' in Iraq, and unable to change the situation on the ground there to any degree.

Knowing this: How can they possibly develop a force capable of invading and holding territory in Iran ? .... The US military is stretched to it's limit, and cannot possibly 'grow' in the amount of time it would take to effectively counter an Irani movement towards standing forces already in the gulf region. The Iran military is poised, on their own ground, not far from the shared border with Iraq ... They would be able to amass their own forces to charge within Iraq as a counter action against the any US provocation .... and if they did, what could the US do ? ..... Move US forces to meet them in eastern Iraq ? .... what then happens in Iraq ? .... who is watching their back ? .... Do the shiite militias in Iraq take potshots at them as they move against Iran ? .... Do those militias move to consolidate control of the iraqi areas left open by departing US forces ? .... Do they join forces with Iran ???? ... Does the US lose the ground they had already fought so hard to keep as they try to react to an Irani incursion ? ....

3) One gambit may be the inclusion of Israeli troops and material into the force picture, but this would be a choice rife with dangerous possibilities for the Israeli state as well ... Consider that the Israeli military has been structured for the defense of its homeland borders, and that even an extension into Lebanon was a difficult bend in it's overall military strategy ... The IDF are not ready to romp across arab territory and join a fight with the US in far off Persia: what kind of vacuum would exist within Israel ? .... How exposed would it then be for invasive attack by Syria ? ... How much of its troop strength could be siphoned off to join a US/Irani juggernaut without degrading it's ability to defend itself against homeland attack ? .....

There is much bluster and breast beating about 'strength' when it comes to talk in diplomatic spheres, and in national councils where such talk is politically motivated to show strength in rhetoric ... But generals have an obligation to be pragmatic and realist ... They CANNOT proceed with the rhetorical bluster of a political movement if they cannot manage affairs on the battlefield ...

Israel would balk at joining a US war against Iran ....


4) An all out war between the US and Iran, mighty Persia, could have disastrous consequences for Israel, and for the region at large. IF the US and or Israel felt that they were losing the initiative on the battlefield, then the resort to nuclear weapons will become more attractive. IF the US or Israel were to actually detonate nuclear weapons in Iran, not only would it kill millions of Iranis directly, it would poison that region for millenae .. The extent of the radioactive degradation is unpredictable, but there is no doubt it would be as extensive as the battle is desperate. IF US forces get bogged down, we might expect the US to throw diplomacy and care to the wind, and regain the initiative by selecting both strategic targets against Irani weapons sources and command structures, and tactical targets against Irani troops in formations against US forces ...

When men are in such battles that they fear losing, they toss caution to the wind, and bring out the 'big guns' .... We could expect that both strategic and tactical nukes would be used to offset the asymmetrical force picture which might exist in an Irani battlefield. The effects of those nukes on the direct areas would be obvious, but the effects over an extended area are indeterminate, but even so, those effects will be real, and will last many lifetimes .... IF that poison blankets the region, as it might, it could spell the end of the various nearby states ... including Israel ...

This scenario ignores the possibility of return fire from a nuclear capable arab state, like Pakistan, for instance ... or a rogue nuke made available through other means .... IF such a weapon(s) is detonated in or near Israel, then Katy-Bar-The-Door; the area WILL be uninhabitable for centuries ....

Impossible ? .... hardly .... I am sure the Joint Chiefs fear this most .... They aren't stupid ...


5) What if: The Neocons are the primary movers of this juggernaut, and they have the pResident's ear ?

What if those Neocons are promoting this action in the WH, but DON'T have the concurrence of the Joint Chiefs ? ..

What if the Pentagon careerists are saying 'Oh no .. not again !' ?

What if the 2, 3 and 4 star Generals refuse to follow this line of action ?

I would have never imagined it before .. but we might, we just might, see a military coup against a maniacal US administration bent on satisfying their own wild-eyed dreams of military success on a battlefield where the generals only see abject failure ....

Would the generals follow through with a defective strategy ? ... Would they commit their own forces, their own troops, to a plan they feel is irrational and dangerous ? ... Or would they say 'Enough!' ?

Either course is frightful for citizens .... Either path is unknown territory for a nation just over 200 years old without a history of military takeover of civilian political structures ...

-----

I am no military expert, by far, but it doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to see there is the possibility for unintended consequences and miscalculation to develop from such a choice as has been made for naval movements in the Persian Gulf ... To bring battle to Iran would unleash a sequence of events that could have catastrophic consequences for the Middle East at large, and would alter the landscape of the region, and the course of our lives, for years to come ...

Now ... Just what the FUCK are they doing ? ....



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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. A Sound Analysis, Marcus Ulpius
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thank you, Sir.
I have always appreciated your commentaries.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. We don't have the troops to invade Iraq, Bush's only option is to bomb
There were news stories over summer that Pentagon planners were thinking of a bombing campaign lasting several weeks, and the British press published an alarming story about Bush thinking of using tactical nukes.

Any attack on Iran will have disastrous consequences for American and for our troops in Iraq.

Israel's bombing of Lebanon failed to dislodge Hizbollah. An American strike on Iran will fail just as miserably!
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Indeed, IG ...
The stories about the usage of tactical nukes by this bunch of miscreants should concern the entire world ... and it certainly should concern american citizens ...

In 'our' name ? .... hardly .... I REJECT any strategy that kills innocent people ....

Israel's gambit into Lebanon itself had consequences, one of them being the realization that the IDF, while vaunted and respected in homeland defense, has significant chinks in their armor when it comes to extended invasions of other nations ..... They revealed a weakness that was not understood, until they revealed it themselves through a careless policy choice ....

They hurt themselves far worse than a mere 'draw' in Lebanon ... their implicit stature was damaged ...
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Ladyinblack Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Where is the outrage?
I am surprised that there is not more outrage concerning bush's ignoring once again the opinions of the experts concerning the war in Iraq.
Now the administration is talking about war with Iran.
When and how can this be stopped? He has already done horrible damage to America and Iraq.
Impeachment may not stop him but it could slow him down.
I am so worried concerning what this man will bring down on all of us.

He has failed us at every turn. He is in, my opinion, an evil person surrounded by evil people who are the axis of evil.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. bush would have no choice but a nuclear first strike. He doesn't
have a ground force to take Iran.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. There arent troops enough for an Iranian war theater
And you are correct, the 'attractiveness' of a nuclear option will be obvious to these crazy people ... But imagine the ramifications ? ... Loosing the Nuclear Tiger can be so damaging to the world polity .... Nations will assume they TOO must have such capability if they are to survive, and it will unleash not only immediate destruction, but a new, more dangerous arms race in the world ...

These assholes dont seem to give one shit ..... BUT: Will the US Generals play along ?

I have my doubts ...
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. bush has made it clear he doesn't give a shit what the
world thinks.


BTW, remember, he got many countries to grant him immunity from the ICC.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. That is irrelevant ....
Either option is a loss ...

Use nukes ? ... Israel gets poisoned ...

Go conventional ? ... WORSE result than Iraq ....

This is LOSE LOSE for Bush ... and the Generals know it ...

If he tries: Their WILL be a coup (or mass resignations at the top) ...

This will NOT fly ....
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I think he could be getting the message. Maybe he will attack
Syria instead, to show he is willing to compromise. :sarcasm:

His comments on expanding them military shows just how out of touch he is with reality.

I agree with you about the generals not wanting to go along with him.
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CK_John Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
8. You ignore the Iranian faction that wants war and look forward to
massive destruction, so they can return to 800 AD and start over. Neocons understand this and are providing the tender for a fire. They are hoping "this faction" sinks a ship to provide an excuse to begin the bombing.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Is should be our goal ...
to NOT be drawn in like that ... Why let a trivial, radical, fringe party on Iran dictate the course of world events ? .... Neocons or not: The US military leadership, outside of the WH, will NOT allow these consequences to unfurl in that way ..... This flotilla is not their idea ... The is WH BS ...

I think most people misunderstand the US Military .... It did NOT want Iraq, and it certainly doesnt want Iran ....

John Abizaid is now speaking freely for them: They want DIPLOMACY instead of Militarism ...

They DONT want troops ... They want RATIONAL foreign policy ....

I would hate to see it, but I do believe pResident AWOL is on a collision course with the likes of Abizaid .... and this may be a turning point in american history ... A place we have never been before ...
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CK_John Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. You forget about Gen MacArthur and the gulf of Tonkin and
Edited on Wed Dec-20-06 12:51 AM by CK_John
the fact that * and the neocons accept the fact that we fight now or later. Two powerful forces that want it to happen now, means it will happen sooner than later.
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GreenZoneLT Donating Member (805 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
11. IF we had any thoughts of invading Iran, it'd be a year from now
Edited on Wed Dec-20-06 01:17 AM by GreenZoneLT
That stuff takes an enormous amount of planning, and there's nothing like that going on.

Nobody's crazy enough to invade Iran. There's not even a pretext. It certainly wouldn't come as a surprise. And militarily, it's just infeasible; the place is too big and too hostile. What the heck would you hope to accomplish?

If we ever do another "pre-emptive" invasion (highly unlikely), you'll know it's coming at least six months in advance, and there will be the same bogus debate in Congress and the U.N. about why we're going to do it.

An air strike is within the realm of possibility, but highly unlikely; it would completely undermine our relationship with the Iraqi government, which is the basis of what strategy we have here. People are just overreacting to us putting a second carrier in the Gulf; we do that all the time. Doesn't mean anything.


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CK_John Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I think it is more likely that Iran will invade Iraq and we have to fight
our way across Jordan to get to the Med. sea. That's what is keeping the Generals awake.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
14.  It is nerve fraying stuff
I personally don't trust anything anymore .

I endured the nuclear threat of the cuban missile crisis and it was very unsettling .

Now here we are again . I am at the point with all this death and war and more countries getting nukes that I am ready to be vaporized and just get it over with .

I know this is not what anyone wants to hear but I am sick of thinking about it all .

The way this world has become with their out of control global economy and the failing economy here along with the idea it's ok to let new orleans drown and the gulf coast suffer for well over a year and the way the corps are growing in wealth and power . The way we think nothing of all the mass killing as long as it does not happen here in america tends to make me feel sick .

No one has the answers to fix any of these horrors and they go on right now as most are talking about the stupid war on X-mass or are out shopping .

It makes me sick that after all these years we have learned nothing and most americans are so involved with none-sense issues and consumerism .

The poor will remain the forgotten and the rich will remain the ignorent selfish freaks . The education system is as broken as the military and racism thrives through taught ignorence .

I have seen these very same issues my entire life of 57 years and it has only gotten worse . We see nothing progress other than high tech innovation . We get further and further from being human .

So there you are . I am sick of it all and this 21st century of complete horror .
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. Insane Neocon...
Isn't that redundant?
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