Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Do You Really Want Change?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Liberalism Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:47 PM
Original message
Do You Really Want Change?
Thousands of probable primary voters have expressed their support for John Kerry. Many are supporting him simply because they want to jump on the bandwagon and say, "Yeah, I voted for Mr. Kerry. He's winning!"

There is plenty of talk about a seemingly important concept called "electability." Many of these voters feel John Kerry is the most "electable" candidate and can best defeat George W. Bush. But most of us know the facts.

John Kerry voted for the war in Iraq, for the USA PATRIOT Act, and for President Bush's education initiatives. He's accepted millions of dollars in corporate donations.

Howard Dean, on the other hand, has a proven executive record of creating jobs, balancing budgets, and expanding government's social activism. He lowered child abuse rates in his state, secured health care for 99% of his state's children, and cut taxes while balancing the state's $70 million deficit. Under the Dean Administration, 76 of the state's leaking landfills were safely closed. And these are just a few of his many accomplishments as governor of Vermont.

Mr. Dean accepts no corporate contributions. A large, organized grassroot movement is behind him -- we all claim to want more citizen participation in government, right? Howard Dean has proven time and time again he has the power and leadership ability to motivate ordinary Americans and get them back in the political process. He launched one of the most powerful grassroots campaigns in the history of the United States.

As President, Howard Dean would enact strict campaign finance reform laws to put political power back in the hands of average, working-class Americans versus big, monopolizing corporate interests. And that's what separates him from John Kerry.

Dr. Dean has the guts to do what's right. And he'll carry that on to the Presidentcy. We should expect no less. America deserves a no-bullcrap, straightforward President who stands up for what he believes in and for what is right.

I don't think John Kerry is that man. I think he's another inside-the-beltway politician who is influenced by getting paid by corporations and special interests. We need a President that will be influenced by the people.

Howard Dean is only electable if we vote for him. His message would hit hard and register with ordinary Americans. His record proves he is the most experienced and qualified man for the position. Many people are going to defend John Kerry for voting for the war that killed 500 American soldiers. Many are going to defend his huge list of corporate doners. But what it all comes down to:

Do you really want change?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Are you telling me my vote is worthless and not to bother?
Is that your advice and counsel?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. OH !!! We Just LOVE The Phrase 'Get Over IT' Around Here !!!
Especially when used by Dems towards fellow Dems.

Just makes us all warm and fuzzy inside, and REALLY interested in supporting those who utter those words!

:mad: :wtf: :grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Edge Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Do you see any chance of him getting anywhere?
If you do, clue me in. I'm really interested.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. sounds like Kerry's advice on Selection 2000 "GET OVER IT!"
No fraud, no disenfranchisement, no worries!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Worse... It Sounds Like The Republican Mantra After The 2000 Theft !!!
:wtf:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
absyntheNsugar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. 2nd place is not *done*
He may not be #1, but he is far from done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Edge Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Well...with his endorsements pulling out...
and the media attacking him and all that stuff, how can he not be done? I don't see it...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, I DO.

And that's why I stood firm for Kucinich today at my caucus! :)

Not that I have anything against Dean, mind you, because I don't.

Your question, however, was do I want CHANGE - and you can't get much more "180" than Kucinich.

Dean had a solid support at my caucus though!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AVID Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. welcome liberalism
from a fellow newbie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Welcome liberalism - from ME TOO!

Sheesh - sorry about the flames on your first step thru the door.

That's why I've NEVER posted in this forum until tonight.

These primary candidate threads can be BRUTAL!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. And now there's stories he's not ruling out a VP position. My my
how far he's fallen. Howard, Howard, get out with some dignity. It will not and never could be a Kerry/Dean ticket!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stromboli Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. kerry
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 11:56 PM by stromboli
The only thing that really bothers me about Kerry is that when he talks about the patriot act, he says a few clauses need to be revised or taken out. From what he's said so far, he doesn't plan to repeal the patriot act, and might even renew it with a few changes. The P.A. should be a big enough issue that every dem candidate would make it their first priority to get rid of it altogether.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
oldleftguy Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. I felt the same way about Eugene McCarthy.
I've grown up. Political give and take is a part of living in the real world. Looking for ideological purity? Why does the vanguard of the proletariat have problems with political purity and ABB folks. Get over it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #11
31. Eugene McCarthy was right.
VietNam was wrong. Pandering to it was wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
17. right message, wrong messenger
The whole point of Dean just a couple months ago was that he's "electable" when it looked like he was the inevitable nominee.

Dean is campaigning as the populist everyman, but his record is that of a typical don't-rock-the-boat, get-along-go-along centrist.

* He won't end NAFTA, just "amend it".
* He won't promote single-payer universal health coverage, because "it won't pass".
* He won't cut the bloated Pentagon budget.
* He won't get us out of Iraq ASAP-- he thinks we should stay there indefinately.
* He won't break up the big media monopolies, and give our airwaves back to us. High-ranking executives at big media companies like (AOL)Time-Warner are large contributors to his campaign.
* He won't sign on to the Kyoto Protocols to save our global environment, despite the fact that even Bill Clinton agreed with them.

Dean's record is that of a compromising, big-business-friendly centrist. Even considering his newfound populist rhetoric, there's little difference between his positions and those of Kerry/Edwards/Clark.




Do you want a candidate who disagrees with President Bush on continuing the war in Iraq, on maintaining NAFTA and the WTO, on keeping the for-profit health insurance system in place? Dennis Kucinich takes on the challenges we face today so we can have a better tomorrow.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MurikanDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
18. A couple problems
First are your mischaracterizations of Kerry and why people are voting for him.

Another is your assessment of Dean. His message is registering with people, and they apparently like Kerry's message better than Dean's. Them's the facts.

Dean can't win a single primary, he's not going to have a chance in a general election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
19. This is crap
Where was Howard Dean when Paul Wellstone was trying to stop dumping in Sierra Blanca? I know where he was and I know where John Kerry was too, helping Paul Wellstone to get it stopped.

Where was Howard Dean on campaign finance in Vermont? I know where he was and I know where John Kerry was too, working with Paul Wellstone on campaign finance laws.

Howard Dean decided to create jobs in Vermont by turning it into a corporate tax haven, because, hey, at least it's not Bermuda!!

Howard Dean said that the 9/11 attacks and their aftermath would require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties." He is NOT going to repeal the Patriot Act. How that is even a point of discussion is beyond me.

John Kerry did not vote for the Bush tax cuts, but I know who supported tax cuts in Vermont and who cut services as a result. And who eventually had to raise sales taxes which are more regressive than the taxes he cut.

If Howard Dean is the Democratic wing, the wing is badly broken.

On NCLB & IWR,

NCLB is a Ted Kennedy bill that was implemented badly by the Bush Administration Dept of Ed. It could have been implemented to support teacher training and school quality FIRST, instead of punishing schools first. It was a funding and Administrative failure.

And we are finding that people believe the IWR vote was RIGHT. Not allowing the inspections to continue is where the error was made and John Kerry was saying that precise thing all along.

Howard Dean, revolultionary. Good grief.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Edge Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. You're preaching to the choir!


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Well said!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. These FACTS have been posted time and time again
thankyou for posting them again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. very well put, and a comment
Many people here know this about Howard Dean - even most of his supporters - so they seldom dog other candidates for the things Dean is in fact guilty of himself. The originator of this thread has, or had at the time, 12 posts. He/she may still hold an idealistic view of Dean that many here abandoned long ago - or never held - based on the expert researchers DU has.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
21. You have some mistaken impressions.
"Mr. Dean accepts no corporate contributions."

Unfortunately, this statement is false. Believe me, I'm not happy to have to mention this, as I once supported Dean (Kucinich is my candidate now) and simply do not trust Kerry. I'd take Dean over Kerry in a New York minute.

However, facts are facts: Dean has had the following corporate contributors, per OpenSecrets:

Time Warner: $74,385

Microsoft Corp: $46,058

IBM Corp: $37,137

Citigroup Inc: $23,803

Hewlett-Packard: $23,072

Goldman Sachs: $22,150

Morgan Stanley: $20,041

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
38. "the organizations themselves did not donate"
Edited on Sun Feb-08-04 09:58 PM by ezmojason
You have misread the chart you site.

Read this from your link:

HOW TO READ THIS CHART: This chart lists the top donors to this candidate during the 2004 election cycle.The organizations themselves
did not donate, rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals'
immediate families.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:22 AM
Response to Original message
22. Yes I do.
That's why I'm supporting Clark.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zoeyfong Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 05:42 AM
Response to Original message
23. The established aristocracy doesn't want change, and the masses take
their marching orders from the aristocracy, whether they know it or not. We had at least 6 solid months of dean-bashing from the corporate media; continuous talk about his 'unelectability,' despite the unprecedented grassroots support he had generated. I almost screamed (oops, better not do that) when i heard various talking heads making their snide little comments about howard dean's supposed lack of 'presidentialness;' i mean, are they familiar with the current occupant of the white house? And the way they jumped on him for his 'gaffes,' i.e. telling the truth, such as when he said we were no safer because of sadaam's capture. if there is anyone on this board who doesn't believe that the minds of the ignorant masses are controlled by the corporate media, you are kidding yourself. and if there is anyone who doesn't believe that the establishment prefers kerry over dean you are also kidding yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. First the aristocracy, then the establishment...
Which is it? Make up your mind!

What I do is very local, and very grassroots. But I have learned over the years that getting the vote out is the most important thing. It might be for a progressive school board member, a Democratic county board member, or a Presidential candidate, but getting the vote out is IT. Organization gets the vote out.

The Dean supporters looked good and well-organized on the Internet, but it does not look like enough of them got off their asses and away from their computers to get to the polls.

I was undecided about a candidate at first. Nobody gave me any marching orders. Read post 19, if you need a clue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. but Dean IS the establishment
Harvard-educated, stockbroker father, grew up in the Hamptons, successful politician. He's the poster child of the wealthy Wall Street elite who control the purse strings of this country.

Your rhetoric is revolutionary, but Howard Dean is NOT about "revolution". Dean and his campaign have done a good job of tapping into the "revolution" of the internet, but his positions and record betray him as just another establishment lackey-- although from the Wall Street establishment, not the D.C. establishment.

The Democratic Party is not about revolution-- nor has it ever been. NONE of our candidates are revolutionary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NV1962 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
28. Yeah, I do: a change of politics and of politicians - why I want Clark
This is why I am convinved Wes Clark is the Iron Man to bring about change - not just a change of subject, or a change in name only. Had too much of that already.

Read this article and interview: http://tinyurl.com/3cdpv
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
29. Regretably, Dean doesn't offer substantive change. Kucinich does, though.
This is a claim that's completely verifiable by anyone who wants to do it. Go look at the policy statements at each candidate's site and compare them. Don't be misled by what candidates say in speeches, because talk is the cheapest commodity in the world. Only a politician's policy statements come anywhere within shouting distance of being solid commitments.

So make the comparisons and you'll see clearly that Dennis Kucinich is our best hope for substantive change.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
30. You say you want change:
Been on the front page of Dennis' website for awhile now:

http://www.kucinich.us /

YOU SAY YOU WANT CHANGE
How much change do you want?


Do you want a candidate who disagrees with President Bush on continuing the war in Iraq, on maintaining NAFTA and the WTO, on keeping the for-profit health insurance system in place? Dennis Kucinich takes on the challenges we face today so we can have a better tomorrow.

Vote for a change...Vote for Dennis Kucinich.
A primary is not the time to compromise.


Just when I'd gotten over several candidates adopting his "end of fear, beginning of hope" campaign and beginning to insert "hope" into their rhetoric, now we have Dean supporters adopting this, and adopting Dennis' frequently used quip, "I'm electable if you vote for me."

I suppose it should make me happy that Dennis has impressed his rivals enough to see them use his stuff. But I'd rather see him get the credit and the support for his ideas and his words.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pezcore64 Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. ...
Dean and Kucinich are the only ones with the ideas and passion to lead our country!

we dont like change in this country tho! cause we are a nation of old voters!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. I'm an old 43,
soon to be 44, and I demand change!

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. And I'm 63 (which sometimes feels quite old)
and like LW, I demand change. Real change. Substantive change. Major change.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zwielicht Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
32. I believe it is possible now
Edited on Sun Feb-08-04 12:38 PM by zwielicht
I never thought i would say this, but i believe real change is possible now, with dean and kucinich in the next administration.

great dean interview on cnn atm!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
35. Affordable Health Care, Energy Independence, Corporate Welfare Reform...
I have to note that your characterization of Dean's record on corporate donations is flatly false. Although most of his money comes from internet people, he certainly does collect large amounts (or used to) from the business community seeking access. And his record in Vermont is small, only because of the size of the state, not because he wasn't taken big checks from IBM, Goldman-Sachs, etc.

And Kerry is hardly subscribing to the status quo. Just because he doesn't hop up and down doesn't mean we are not in for great changes. Kerry will completely re-direct our foreign policy and set an agenda to get at the roots of terrorism - poverty and corruption - while making the "war" on terrorism an international police and intelligence gathering operation, rather than militaristic.

Kerry will also launch a major initiative to restructure our energy consupmtion/production around clean, domestic renewables. He will set up a powerful bi-partisan commission to slash corporate pork in the budget, close the offshore loopholes, and put some real teeth into the SEC and Accounting Oversight Board.

Finally, you may have disagreed with his vote on IWR and Patriot Act, but I seriously doubt you disagree with his own position on matters of foreign policy and civil rights.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
37. Slow change is better than no change.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Tell that to those who died in slavery
:(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-04 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. I'm not going to pretend that I can instantly correct social injustice.
What's your plan?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Nov 22nd 2017, 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC