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What happens if 2006 elections are stolen again?

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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:35 AM
Original message
What happens if 2006 elections are stolen again?
What is a person to do? I took the whole week off, because I will hit the streets.
But, I'm not so sure what people will do-after all these elections have been tainted for 6 years at least.
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. I predict a revolution.
Edited on Sun Sep-24-06 09:39 AM by panader0
It's our duty as patriotic Americans.
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. i welcome a revolution, sadly though I predict, nothing will happen.
the grumbling will get a little louder, the republicans will keep their stolen offices. america will continue its fall into fascism.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. You are correct, I'm afraid
That's my reply, too: Nothing.

The outrage will fade away, and the country will sink further into tyranny.
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Katzenjammer Donating Member (541 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
75. Exactly. The answer to "what will happen" is "same as 2004: nothing" (nt)
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Totallybushed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. When it gets bad enough,
there will be a revolution. Not before.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. As a patriotic American, what are you doing in the "revolution"?
Be as precise as possible because I don't want to lump you with the rest of the keyboard jockeys that bluster and growl and then sit in front of their monitors complaining that the "sheeple" haven't taken the streets.
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #34
60. A Blueprint For Peaceful Revolution
A Blueprint For Peaceful Revolution (.pdf)

I wrote this a year ago as a stand alone paper. Now it is the final chapter in my book, We Do Not Consent (free .pdf download).
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #34
65. And speak clearly into the microphone...
The military tribunal can't strip you of habeas corpus if you mumble...
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
61. It can't be violent
The 'boys' have already made plans for such an outcome and they have a lot more and bigger guns. The only way it can work is to hit them in the wallet and starve them for money. The only way the can stay in power is by force and intimidation. That takes a lot of money to pay their minions.
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enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. Playing "nice" doesn't work with these pricks
It is going to have to be violent to have any impact.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #64
68. I've been dealing witht the 'boys' for a long time now
well over 20 years and one of their favorite tricks is to try and goad you to violence or other illegal activity. Once they get you in jail, your ass is theirs.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #68
85. You're right.
And peace marches will only be televised if there is violence; peaceful demonstrations will be ignored entirely.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
70. I fantacize that someone will hack
into the computers and 0-out the vote totals. Wouldn't that be great? Couldn't you see the poll workers going to print out election results and the final count in all electronic voting precincts all across America is 0-0. I LOVE that idea!
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abluelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. Just Yesterday
I was saying I don't know how I will get out of bed 11/8 if that happens. It seems to me that it is more imperative than ever that we win by landslides. Won't it be harder to steal an election that is a landslide?
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. i dont think its much harder for them to steal a landslide
just more obvious. but i dont think they care. win, by any means, might makes right.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. I afraid you are right. And most "landslides" are by less than
ten percentage points. Al Gore won by a "landslide," and so did John Kerry.



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abluelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Obvious is Good. n/t
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
4. "What happens WHEN 2006 elections are stolen?" is probably . . .
the more accurate question . . .

first rule for the Democrats is "Concede nothing!" . . . no matter what the initial vote totals show, we must not concede ANY race until a recount can be conducted . . . and if a recount can NOT be conducted, we must be prepared to go to court . . .

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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. remember Bilbray? they just oozed him in before the election could
be verified-what if they try that one?
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. don't know . . . what I DO know is that the Democrats have . . .
made a HUGE mistake by not making election fraud a central issue since at least 2004 -- preferably since 2000 . . . they have, for the most part, ignored the issue, and their negligence is going to bite them in their collective ass this year . . . with big, big teeth . . .
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. Us, it's going to take a big old chunk out of our (members of the
Democratic Party :kick:) asses. Maybe that's how we'll actually get some change, "our leaders" will continue keeping that powder dry until there are none left and then we'll get to pick a whole new team.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
79. That's what I've been saying
My only hope is that they *do* realize how serious it is, they *do* have a plan, and they are keeping it under their hat. One can hope....
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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
6. I volunteered to be a poll worker this year,
but even though they have paper ballots, the machine is an ES&S, so, I think someone could mess with that disk, but at least they have the scantrons to check.
I never cried stolen election when Nixon won-I just want fair elections!
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. What do you mean "if"...
It's "when", I'm sorry to say.

There will be several races where the vote WILL be stolen. You can count on that.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
8. Meet in DC. If Mexican voters can turn out in mass protest, we
can, too.
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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. I'm thinking they will use that microwave weapon on us
I guess I'm getting paranoid, but I trust no one in our "elected government" now. Well, save a few.
Our AG is just as crooked as them, he won't help.
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ewoden Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:10 AM
Original message
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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
18. They don't sell to the general public though nt
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StraightDope Donating Member (716 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
23. Better plan an alternative...
"G Squared only sells to Law Enforcement, Military personnel and Apparel Manufacturers for Law Enforcement and Military clothing."


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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
10. Nothing happens
Misdirect, lie, obsfucate, sacrifice a few pawns. The old "bread and circuses" and the people fall for it every time.
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Golden Raisin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
15. The sorryass democrat "leadership", having
learned nothing will capitulate the next day with a lot of huffing & puffing but no real action. Feingold & Murtha (and maybe Kennedy) will speak out forcefully. Folks on sites like DU will be suicidal and clinically depressed. The great majority of Americans won't know or care and will simply switch channels from 'American Idol' to the latest adventures of Paris Hilton. Hannity, Malkin, Coulter, Limbaugh, O' Reilly, Beck, Hume, Tweety, etal. will be in an ecstatic state surpassing those of medieval saints. Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Grover Norquist, Bill Kristol, Jim Baker, Rupert Murdoch, Poppy Bush and Co. will laugh quietly and continue the lockdown to total control & total fascism.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
17. The Battlin' Congressional Dems
will lie on the couch with a cold beer and watch TV.

And we'll all say "Ooh, they are so awful!"

And then we'll vote for someone who is "electable".

(repeat above ad infinitum)

Ha!
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
20. The Democrats will be told to shut the fuck up or be sent to Gitmo.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
21. There will be lots of wailing, "We was robbed,the election was stolen!"
There will be lots of righteous indignation, but then Democrats who are leading comfortable lives and Republicans who are leading comfortable lives will go right back to those lives. Basically, Republicans have let Democrats know that "on __________we will steal the election and there is nothing you can do about it". Then the election is held, and stolen, and we will wail and cry and moan while our Democrat leaders do nothing concrete and vocal about election fraud. This brings to mind the old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Food me twice, shame on me." Or as Dr. Phil says, "The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior". Count me among the very surprised if there are any great number of people who take to the streets when the next election is stolen.

Democrats were so certain that Kerry was going to beat Bush in 2004 and even went to bed thinking he had won. We are so certain now that we will take control of one, or both, of the houses of Congress. There are even those who are already planning what will be done to Bush when the Democrats take over. Imagine the shock and surprise if the Republicans retain control and Democrats have to watch them strut and become sick as we have to listen to them claim this is an affirmation of the Bush policies.

As in a boxing match where the bout may be rigged, Democrats cannot allow it to go to a decision, but need to win by a knockout. In any contested races, once we have the Republicans down we must keep them down. Democrats cannot control the "surprises" thrown at them by the Bush administration before the election, but they can go on the offensive and show the American people what they stand for and let the American people clearly know what Democrats will do and what their plan is. Don't take for granted that the polls show that the Democrats have a big lead over Republicans in congressional races. It ain't over til it's over. Voters may prefer Democrats over Republicans and yet still vote for their own incumbent Republican because that person brings home the bacon for them.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
22. WHEN it happens (not if), the corporate news monopolies will attempt to
portray the American people as "sheeple" and as accepting the results of this "miraculous comeback victory" engineered by that brilliant guy, Karl Rove. They will trot out all of Rove's newsturds--pre-floated into the newsstream--gay marriage, brown immigrants, our bombs busting terrorists' heads, that devil Iran, and their fabled, "invisible," get-out-the-vote campaign "in the churches." And thus they will "explain" how these outrageous criminals with a 30% to 40% approval rating for about 2 years now got themselves re-(s)elected.

But the American people will not be buying it this time. Many didn't in '04. Many more won't in '06. They know this is strange and wrong. Some now know exactly what is going on--rigged e-voting machines--but many still don't know. They may vaguely distrust the machines, but they don't know the half of it (--that Bushite corporations now control election results with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, and that the Corporate Democrats have been collusive on it). The election reform movement has grown by leaps and bounds since '04--with many lawsuits, articles, books and web sites, new groups formed and many new and impassioned activists. Election fraud and election reform citizen activism will increase. There will be many battles at the state/local level, as the Bushites, warmongers and corporatists hang onto to their unfair advantage with tooth and claw. But they will begin losing many of these local battles. The Diebold II Congress may then pass draconian legislation actually requiring e-voting (it is not now required), and further restricting voting rights. They may do things like ban Absentee Ballot voting. The American people will get madder and madder

I don't know who will win, in the end--or whether or not we'll have a country left, to speak of, when it's all over--but I DO have a lot of faith in the American people. I've been closely watching both approval AND issue polls over the last 3-4 years, and I know, and can prove, that, a) the American people are far better informed and far more progressive than anyone gives them credit for, and b) they have been AMAZINGLY resistant to the relentless, 24/7 Bushite/Corporate propaganda that they have been subjected to.

However, THE most buried--black-holed, Iron Curtained--story has been the one about Bushite control of the e-voting machines. You can't "read between the lines" (as many Americans are doing) if there is NO information. And of this black-holed story, THE most lethal part has been the collusion of our Democratic Party leadership in the Corporate takeover of our elections, and people like Michael Moore and Al Franken toeing the Party line on election fraud. That is why there has been such a slow reaction to rigged voting machines. Americans trust the Democrats (and many of our leaders are NOT trustworthy--most particularly on e-voting--they've sold our right to vote away). Americans are reduced nearly to word-of-mouth communication on many issues, especially this one. Word-of-mouth is slow, even with the internet.

Non-transparent elections are NOT elections. They are tyranny. And tyranny cannot work here. We are not Germany '32. We are a much bigger and much more diverse country. They can only temporarily loot us (big time, it's true--but it cannot continue) and use our soldiers as cannon fodder in their corporate oil war (which most Dem leaders are also collusive about). It cannot last. It will not hold. The Corporate Rulers can only control the narrative; they cannot control what people think, and they have FAILED to do that. So, rebellion is building. What form will it take? Who knows? Perhaps, after they loot Social Security, the Grannie marches--(will they teargas and microwave little old ladies and men in wheelchairs?). A general strike? (People in this country are actually far more vulnerable than, say, protesters in Mexico, Bolivia or Argentina. We live very artificial lives. How many of us could remain out of debtors' prison with a 2-week general strike? Who among us has family/friends/ tight-knit communities to feed us and hearten us in a general strike? Something to think about.)

But something's gonna give. Likely, they'll Diebold in Hillary (or someone like her) in '08 to throw a few sops at us, on social policy. Bushite crime will be covered up. By then, we'll be occupying TWO big Middle Eastern countries, at humungous cost. Civil unrest will ensue. And Hillary will not hesitate to use the new powers of the "unitary executive" to deal with it. (I saw what the Clintons were capable of, in Seattle in 1999.) We will be grateful for Corporate Rule (after Bush) or we will be in jail. But slowly--ever so slowly--I think the election reform movement will succeed (at the state/local level). And when there is nothing left to loot in the U.S., and our country is in ruin, we will get it back, and have to rebuild it again--hopefully this time without corporations. (De-charter them all! And start over!)

------------------------

But there is a more hopeful scenario for this November--contingent upon enough people getting the word to VOTE BY ABSENTEE BALLOT.

If everybody who despises the Bush Junta (60% to 70% of the American people) votes by Absentee Ballot this fall, the reign of these diabolical e-voting machines will be OVER!

Bust the Machines--Vote by Absentee Ballot this fall! Spread the word! Massive citizen resistance to these Rigged Machines by AB voting!

We cannot prevent Stolen Election III. But we sure can put the kibosh on electronic voting by refusing to vote on the Machines--and thus save the '08 primaries and general election from secret corporate vote tabulation. We can FORCE reform NOW. We can stun local/state election officials with our rebellion. We can put election reform activists at the table, with our demand that they restore TRANSPARENT elections.

It CAN happen, and it can happen NOW. The governor of Maryland (a Republican!) is calling for Absentee Ballot voting. So is the Colorado Democratic Party. It's an idea whose time has come. It's the "Montgomery Bus Boycott" and the "Boston Tea Party" of our era. The black citizens of Montgomery, Alabama, went to work, but they did NOT take the bus--they WALKED!

We vote--in massive numbers--but we do NOT vote on their rigged machines. We show these election officials up for the corrupt fools they are. We make them change, or get rid of them. We restore order NOW.

The American people are capable of it, I assure you. But they need to know WHAT TO DO. Please spread the word!


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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
24. Since the 2004 elections weren't stolen
I'd have to disagree with your premise.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Upon what do you base this assertion? n/t
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. The utter lack of credible evidence?
Works for me...

But throw in the desperate need to pretend we didn't outright lose (hint: we did), and the picture becomes devastatingly clear.
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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. The point is without audits or ability to audit we don't know
and you can't prove one way or the other.
The motive and the means are there.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. I'm all for the ability to audit
But you make a refreshing admision: you cannot prove that the last election was stolen.

Maybe you should focus more on getting transparent software in there, and less on whining about the last election (which we lost).
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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. And you can't prove it wasn't. How does one get transparent software?
I don't think I've been whining. Thinking that the Repubs are stealing all the elections that they can (not all on evote yet)is not whining.
I'm trying to be serious and find out what people will/would do. My theory is that nothing will change until we have "transparent software", meaning fair elections or until people have had enough.
If that sounds whiny to you, then that's what you think.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
74. You can't help that one.
Trust me. The complete and utter lack of credible evidence comment should tell you right there.

That one is LOST. Reach the open minds, and forget those who can't be helped. Let them fend for themselves.

There isn't enough time left to waste on them.
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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #74
84. You have a good point-thanks! nt
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. Digital voting machines aside, you discount Blackwell's blatant abuse of
his office and all of the other Ohio shenanigans? There is an astounding, overwhelming, amount of evidence pointing to an unlawful and unethical electoral farce. We have executed people on far less evidence than we have in the case of Ohio. If you really believe there is no credible evidence, just Google '"Ohio election" 2004' and take your pick of over 200,000 sites and stories documenting this second coup.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Blackwell currently losing in ohio at 33% vs. 51%...
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. I certainly hope the elections turn out that way. n/t
:hi: :kick: :hi:
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. No, I do not
The underfunding and under-equipping of selected precincts in Ohio was an absolute disgrace. Unfortunately, it is par for the course for elections in general, and there does need to be serious election reform to deal with this sort of thing. I happen to believe that it was not sufficient to swing the Ohio vote, even with the slim margin of 118,000 for Bush.

Now, I'm not a lunatic on this thing. The machinations in Florida in 2000 DID, in fact, swing the election, and I certainly believe that Florida was "stolen," and thus that the 2000 election was manifestly fraudulent. Absolutely. In 2004, we just lost on our own. Or rather, the disposition of the country was against us, the GOP ran a savvy - if vicious - campaign, and the Kerry team ran an inept - and pusillanimous - campaign. For those reasons, we really, really lost. No voting machines about it. Blackwell's idiocies and frauds were quite real, but not sufficient to decide the matter. .
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. I'm not as certain as you are, but we will never know for sure because
of our "leaders" unwillingness to fight for it like they want it. I do find our citizen's apparent willingness to tolerate blatant fraud, and there is quite a history of it on our side too, very disturbing, even outrageous. I suppose it is small wonder that the politiwhores have such contempt for their constituents, but it still pisses me off. :grr:
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
43. Hey, Alcibiades, prove to me that Bush won!
Please cite your evidence.

And please include your review and disproof of the following:

"Preserving Democracy: What Went Wrong in Ohio"
Status Report of the House Judiciary Committee Democratic Staff
Wednesday 05 January 2005
http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010605Y.shtml

"Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen?
Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count"
Joel Bleifuss, Steve Freeman
http://www.sevenstories.com/Book/?GCOI=58322100420010&f...

"Was the 2004 Election Stolen?" by Robert Kennedy Jr. 6/1/06
(comprehensive overview of the 2004 stolen election)
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the...

Friday, November 4th, 2005
Mark Crispin Miller: Kerry Told Me He Now Thinks the Election Was Stolen
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/04/153...

"Fooled Again: How the Right Stole the 2004 Election & Why They'll Steal the Next One Too."
http://www.amazon.com/Fooled-Again-Mark-Crispin-Miller/...

A conversation with Mark Crispin Miller, 12/12/05
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/a-conversation-...

The Princeton study (2006) (e-voting machines extremely hackable)
http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting /

(Comment on the Princton study)
HACKED: VIRUS IMPLANTED, SPREAD ON DIEBOLD TOUCH-SCREEN VOTING MACHINE!
New, First-of-Its Kind, University Study Reveals Malicious Code Can Be Easily Inserted into Voting Machine, Spread from One System to the Next, Resulting in Flipped Votes, and Stolen ElectionsAll Without a Trace Being Left Behind
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3467

The GAO Report (--insecurity of the nation's e-voting system)
www.gao.gov/new.items/d05956.pdf

The GAo Report (findings and comment)
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/102105Q.shtml

Stealing America...Vote by Vote(film review, by Harvey Wasserman)
September 23, 2006
http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/7/2006/1437

Michael Collins (Autorank)'s searing election reform article for New Zealand's Scoop.com
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Bob Koehler, "Poll Shock:
Off by 40 points, newspaper's predictions may be disturbingly accurate"
November 24, 2005
(-- four recent election reform initiatives in Ohio, predicted to win by 60/40 votes, flipped over, on election day, into 60/40 LOSSES!--the biggest flipover we've seen yet; the election theft machines and their masters are now dictating election policy!)
http://commonwonders.com/archives/col321.htm

Bob Koehler's latest: "Take this box and stuff it" (3/16/06)
http://commonwonders.com/archives/col337.htm

Amaryllis (Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia lavish lobbying of election officials - Beverly Hilton, Aug. '05)
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=vi...

-----------------------------

Alcibiades, your cryptic "hit and run" comments that the 2004 elections were NOT stolen weigh as light as a puffball against all of this evidence of a fraudulent election SYSTEM and a stolen election. If you have any substantial proof that Bush won, and could point us to trustworthy web sources that present evidence that he won, and that counter all of this evidence that he did not win, I would appreciate it.
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. The burden of proof is on PROSECUTION, not the defendent..
Unless YOU produce the proof and win in a court of law
that election was stolen, it is just unproven conjecture.
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HomerRamone Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #45
58. Not talking about prosecutions, but the right to legitimate elections
If it can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the results are accurate, then they should be invalidated for a transparent process.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. You would have to invalidate damn near every election in history
Nobody is disputing the right to legitimate, tamper-free elections. Indeed, this is something we should all work towards. The question is whether the last election was stolen. Arguing that people can't prove it wasn't is piddling indeed. Either you have sufficient evidence that it was, or you do not. The "I know you are but what am I" line of argument is getting old, and makes it impossible to take you seriously.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. As someone else said, the burden is on you to prove that it was stolen
That said, I'll play.

1) Your first link catalogues a list of grievances against Blackwell. His actions prior to the election and on election day were indeed odious, but they are par for the course. This type of shit happens all the time. We just have a catalogue because there was a spotlihght on the ordinary. That said, nothing in that report definitively proves that the actions were sufficient to swing the vote. Lacking such definitive proof, the catalogue is a good argument for election reform, but not evidence in the case for "Theft 2004."

2)I'm not sure how I'm supposed to comment on a book that you link to. I take it that you're dealing primarily with the disparity between exit polls and vote tallies. I'd be happy to look at these statistics in more detail, but at this point, I'm not sure such an argument demonstrates anything.

3)An excellent article. What in there convinces you?

4+) Marl Crispin Miller? When you find a serious source, let me know.

The rest of your stuff is on the unreliability and tamperability of the machines. Whether they can be hacked is not in issue. Whether they were IN FACT hacked, is. So, you can give me a thousand articles demonstrating that the machines are vulnerable. I'll be unsurprised. All machines are vulnerable. The question is whether any of these machines was actually tampered with in 2004. I'd be happy to entertain any evidence you have on that point.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #49
71. Damn! Common sense on elections! I never thought I'd read
such clear-thinking on the subject here at DU.

Most people don't want to let facts get in the way of good histrionics.
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Riddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
25. Absolutely nothing!
We haven't done a thing after having 2 presidential elections stolen and questionable activities during the last mid-terms. We don't have a single Democrat of national prominence who will do a damn thing about it other than whine a little, and we don't have a main stream media news source who will dare approach the subject, regardless of how much proof they are given. So in essence, we will be screwed once again, and there's not a thing we can do about it short of a national revolt, which isn't going to happen with no leadership.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
26. Nothing will happen!
Americans are not Mexicans! If we were, we would be occupying the largest public plaza in the country in opposition to the regime that stole the election.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
29. Exactly what revolutionary acts will you perform when you "hit the streets
Stand on a corner with a sign and a bullhorn?
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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I don't know I give up nt
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Enjoy your week long vacation. I'd go camping or remodel the house.
You don't want to just waste a perfectly good week of vacation time.
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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
42. Like a one (wo)man revolution nt
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
35. One would expect direction from Dem leaders, unite with a plan of action
One could expect at least this much but the Bush corruption machine renders some Dem leaders spineless!
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. You mean the Dem leaders that were ELECTED IN THE SAME ELECTION
that you want them now to declare invalid? That doesn't make much sense now does it?
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Tiggeroshii Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
39. The country is only as good as it's people
If nothing happens, it's because we didn't do enough to get something to happen. If something happens, it's because enough people care to get their votes counted. Not enough people really care, that's the problem.
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
44. Unless we can prove in a court of law that it was stolen....NOTHING
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
48. I Posted This Several Times... Even Though It's Going To Take
me some time, I DO PLAN on moving away. We presently care for my husband's mother who has Alzheimer's and we have 3 pieces of property that will have to be sold, but I want OUT!! I'm a boomer, and I'll be ready to throw in the towel if it's stolen again and NOTHING gets done! Even if my husband doesn't want to do it, I think I'm to the point that I will go without him!

I had hoped to be able to do some traveling by the time we retired, but now I may be traveling and not coming back! I realize Costa Rica is getting a lot of attention, but it's a very beautiful place and they have no Army, Navy or Air Force. There will be inconvenience, but I may have my sanity to live with anyway!
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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I agree-I almost bought property in San Felipe, Baja a few months back
I've considered Costa Rica, but it will have lots of hurricanes. I hear it is beautiful. I also checked into Belize, but one has to prove $2k/month income to live there.
I don't speak Spanish (have tried to, but old brain!-they should teach Spanish to children in US-another subject though), so it might be hard to move to Latin America or South America.
Australia or Canada? What are the rules for foreigners in Europe?
Anyway, I'm with you-I feel powerless and I'm worried about a police state here soon. I can't move for about 2 years (long story), but it definitely is on the table.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Well I Already Live With Hurricanes Right Now.... Flor-EEE-DUH!
Australia was my first pick and I have an email friend who lives there. I'm keeping it on the list because I've always wanted to go there. A little more expensive than Costa Rica. Costa Rica is very cheap right now, but a lot of people are buying there. Living in Florida I hear a lot about it.

It will take some time for me also, especially if we can't sell. My mother-in-law's place can't be sold until she passes. She's 94 and has Alzheimer's and has been with us for over 7 years. Then we had bought some acreage about 17 years ago and will have to sell that, plus we have our house here.

I actually think my husband might consider it. He's not political, but he hears it from me all the time and I'm overly active. He agrees with me politically and sees what's happening, but I think he would like the respite! Most family situations have some clean up work to do. I know I'm not any different. My son had gotten involved with Meth and that's a huge problem even though we don't see him anymore, and my daughter has 3 kids. However, she wants to move too! But I really have had my fill of this stuff! What a shame for us to have to feel like this. But I know my feelings are very very deep!
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
50. The same thing that happened last time. Or,
people give up on the Democratic Party, and a new party rises from the rubble.

Or, we acknowlege our transition to a one-party theocracy.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
53. It'll be just another day in the fantasyland we've lived in for 6 years.
Edited on Sun Sep-24-06 09:44 PM by Seabiscuit
Of course the elections will be stolen. They were stolen in 2000, 2002, and 2004, and our Democratic leaders in D.C. STILL haven't done squat about it.

We all could have asked the same question "What will we do if the *** elections are stolen" in 2002 and 2004. Many of us did, and to our dismay, we're staring at another stolen election in 2006 and probably yet another one in 2008.

There should be a sign over every door allowing immigrants into this country which reads: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here".
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-24-06 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
55. Answer
Please click here.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
56. What do you mean "if"?
Same thing it did for the past 3 elections. Propaganda will go out ti splain why, and Dems will buy it. Values voters. War preznit. Dignitude in the WH. Whatever.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
57. I'll take off Election Day and the day after
Not sure if I will take more time. Depends on the outcome.

If the election is stolen again, I may never be able to go back to work. When it was swiped in '04, I nearly lost my job due to my surly demeanor. I'm afraid it will only get worse if it happens again so I may as well take to the streets and call the bums out.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
59. We join forces with these people
as much as I hate to say it they were correct, but our side would not listen.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
62. IF?
When. I hope you've all made plans!
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enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
63. It will be more than "hitting the streets"
It will be all out war.
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A wise Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
66. I say
the revolution should begin.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
67. I do not see any plans for massive exit polling. What are the Dems doing
to prevent theft?
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
69. Don't do anything that will send you to prison
The 'boys' have privatized the prison system and turned it into an industry. They would love to make you their slave.

http://dunwalke.com/non_flash.htm
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cadmium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. GOOD POINT!
And thus they will take away your voting rights. Do not give them a chance.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
73. Let's plan ahead. Go to the World Can't Wait demo Oct 5.
Talk to people about reconvening after the election. Leaflet the demonstrators
on the electoral fraud issue. Reprint the RFK Rolling Stone articles availanbe
on the internet.

Lobby World Can't Wait to address the elections integrity issue directly.
Note Mark Crispin Miller and Rep. John Conyers have signed the WorldCantWait
statement.



http://www.worldcantwait.net /

Find a demo in your town:

http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&t...
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lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
76. Heres the petition for paper ballots for this November
http://www.democracyinaction.com/secstateproject/campai...

grassroots effort to get paper ballots for November.

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cadmium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
77. We should keep working hard on the 50 state strategy
One thing that was totally clear to me from Robert Kennedy's Rolling Stone paper was that this could happen for several election cycles in a row, because elections are altered in many different ways on local levels. There is very little way to effectively combat it without better state and local influence. Democrats' grass roots is still amateur compared to Republicans. There isn't a way to fight vote counts without local allies. The thing to do is to work to get more Democratic Secretaries of State, judges (where they are elected), Governors, and County commissioners. The worst thing to do is what the Bush crowd are hoping for -- giving up.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
80. The very same people will be scratching their heads and saying...
"What happens if the 2008 elections are stolen again?"

And they won't have learned a blessed thing in the process.

(Cassandra mode OFF)
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
81. Expect more e-mails from Kerry asking for money!
After all, that's what he did in 2004 and has been doing ever since.

Sometime in 2008 he will say "I'm going to investigate the voter fraud in the 2006 midterm elections."


"This is our 2004 Swiftboat Investigation Dance!"
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Peggy Day Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #81
86. Everytime I get requests for money, I inform them that when they
address the voting machine problem, then I will start sending money again.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-25-06 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
82. it will be some serious shit
I think the wealthy neocons who own this country will loosen the Diebold screws slightly and let the dems "win" one house of Congress.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
83. I don't think the masters of this country
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 02:31 AM by ProudDad
give a shit which right wing of the business party wins in the long run.

Although they prefer the repuke version for the quick buck, they still win with brand D...

The revolution must eliminate capitalism...or there will be NO substantive change.

But never fear, the revolution is already going on in Venezuela, Bolivia, Argentina, Mexico, etc. etc.
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