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BobcatJH Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:00 AM
Original message
Betraying Barry Goldwater
I had the pleasure of watching the premiere of "Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater" last night on HBO. Throughout the informative documentary, CC Goldwater examines the role her grandfather played in politics as well as illustrates the man behind the mantle of "Mr. Conservative". Using entertaining, revealing anecdotes and interviews with a variety of politicians, pundits and family members, we get a well-rounded portrait of man about whom a second look is quite appropriate. A man widely viewed as the father of modern conservatism, yet a man whose outspoken views ran counter with those of many claiming to have followed in his footsteps. In fact, a man with whom progressives would, on some key issues, share more common ground than would those in the modern-day Republican Party who have forgotten Goldwater's lessons. In fact, without putting words in his mouth, I feel confident in saying that Goldwater would scarcely recognize today's ultra-right Republicans, let alone appreciate the regressive path they've chosen.

Before I examine the divide between Goldwater and today's Republicans that, to me, seems as wide as the Grand Canyon, I must first say that the film doesn't exist to tell viewers what to think. Nor does it attempt to get them to stand in lock-step with everything Goldwater believed. I, for instance, found his pro-war stance far too hawkish. His let-things-take-care-of-themselves position on Civil Rights also left a bad taste in my mouth. But people, however, aren't simply a laundry list of issues. They're people. People who, in a perfect world, often have sincere reasons for feeling the way they feel and well-thought positions stemming from deeply-held beliefs. What's more, no matter what President Bush or those in his party would have you believe, things are not black and white. Goldwater wouldn't blend into the current crop of Republican politicians. We're talking about a genuine maverick. We're also talking about a politician whose pro-choice views would place him outside the Republican mainstream, which is already far outside the mainstream of American thought. And a politician whose pro-gay rights stance would equally distance him from the Republican platform. To cap it off, we're talking about a politician whose distaste for the religious right and its encroachment on his party was matched only by his ability to freely speak his mind.

And that, in addition to a well-done portrait of a rather interesting player in modern American history, was what I took away from "Mr. Conservative". That is, the realization that Goldwater not only wouldn't recognize the party his rise to prominence helped build, but also that he wouldn't find himself welcomed within that party's so-called "big tent". Further, it wasn't Goldwater whose positions forced a divide between "Mr. Conservative" and the conservatives. No, it was the party Goldwater helped return to respectability that sold its soul to the devil by becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of the extreme Christian right. And that corrupt bargain, I'm afraid, has poisoned the political climate. Don't get me wrong, there was much to be ashamed of and angry about in the political world in which Goldwater operated, just as there is now. But in the climate as it presently exists, a sizable minority claims to operate with the imprimatur of a higher power. And not just any higher power, but a pissed off, vengeful higher power that champions fundamentalist Christianity, abandons the true lessons of Jesus and allows its adherents to act with impunity, kill in God's name and otherwise make everyone's life a living hell. If that wasn't bad enough, consider that the No. 1 fan of this whole misguided ideology is the president himself.

Armed with this bogus spiritual armor, today's Republican Party considers it a waste of time to interact with their opposition. Don't want to keep gays from marrying, adopting or, quite frankly, existing? Then fuck you. Don't want to legislate women into second-class citizenship? Then fuck you. Don't want to interfere with the personal decisions of private individuals? Then fuck you. Don't want to turn science classes into a faith-based farce? Then fuck you. Who needs debate, the argument goes, when you've got God on your side? Who needs civility, similarly, when your your God can't distinguish between the Democrats and the terrorists? Did Goldwater lob his share of rhetorical grenades? Of course. I mean, we're talking about a man who spoke off-the-cuff about sending a nuclear device into the men's room at the Kremlin. But we're also talking about a man who said, "To disagree, one doesn't have to be disagreeable." Are you listening, Ms. Coulter? Did you catch that, Mr. DeLay? Should I repeat that, Mr. Rove?

Perhaps in the documentary's most unintentionally ironic moment, John McCain tells the filmmakers he considers himself a "Goldwater Republican". Right. Maybe in the past, before McCain, like so many in his party, sold out to the religious right. Doing so to get back in the good graces of those poorly named "values voters", McCain recently spoke at the graduation of Liberty University. Jerry Falwell's Liberty University. The same Falwell McCain once called an "agent of intolerance". And yes, the same Falwell about whom Goldwater once said, "I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell's ass." Kicking then, kissing now. And that, to me, says it all. "When you say 'radical right' today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party away from the Republican Party, and make a religious organization out of it," Goldwater said in 1994. "If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye." In a way, I'm glad the prophetic Goldwater isn't around to see what's become of his party. Because the man who once offered Americans a choice, not an echo would feel ashamed of and embarrassed by those claiming to share the same political party. And perhaps a little betrayed, too.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'm all for second looks....
..and I have no ill-will towards Goldwater, but the suidden fetishism progressives have with him is a bit curious if you ask me.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. It may be a fetishism for some ... but for others, its quite real.
Goldwater was a man of his time. I was a young man of the same time and back then was, in fact, a Republican. Goldwater was part of that reason. I never shared all my views with him (as I don't share all my views with any current Democratic notable), but he seemed to me, at the time, a well considered, honest man.

I wonder what he would seem like today. Would he have followed my own path or that of the man who so loves to claim his mantle, John McCain? Would he have drifted leftward as have I? I honestly don't know. Its been a long road from there to here. I'd like to think he would have.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I think he would've remained staunchly small-gov libertarian
Most of his social opinions changed very late in his career, but I think he probably would've stood pat on many of small-government biases. Honestly, I think he would be revered by the left mostly because he probably would've antagonized GWB a good deal, even if that antagonism came from the right.

Let me refine my remarks a bit too...I'm glad progressives are taking an interest in Goldwater as he is a very important figure in the intellectual history of conservatism, and it is intensely important to understand that history. I just think some of the praise heaped upon him is a little strange and does make me wonder how much people know about his career and beliefs.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. A few thoughts
Its funny you mention him as a father of conservatism. He is, of course, but that's not the direct ancestry of the neocons (who I see differently than honest conservatives). That would be back to the Scoop Jackson wing of the Democratic party ..... who, at the time I was a Goldwater guy, I absolutely despised. Funny how some things come almost full circle.

Now, I'm not trying to paint Goldwater as a liberal with this next statement, but it is worth some consideration. That's the notion of small government. If you think about that, the *ideal* government is the one that is exactly big enough to get the job done, and not one bureaucrat bigger. The issue is not the size of government, per se, but rather the definition of the job one wants government to do.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. And that's where there would be some major disconnects...
...on the role of government. Socially, Barry Goldwater would certainly share some common ground with the left (although some of the statements he made throughout history would scare some I think ;)). Politically, I'm not so certain.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Yup!
Its about defining the goals. And I suspect you're quite correct. His list of government's 'jobs' would probably be far smaller than yours or mine!
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Malidictus Maximus Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
36. The size of government....
Edited on Wed Sep-20-06 07:42 PM by Malidictus Maximus
Therein lies the danger of modern liberalism. The conundrum is that a government powerful and pervasive enough to do Good Things in the hands of enlightened people (end segregation, enforce environmental regulations, require gender equality) is a government that is powerful and pervasive enough to REALLY interfere with individual freedoms when in the hands of fundies, fascists and freepers. I think it was a great misfortune that 'States Rights' was used so much by racists that it now carries sufficient opprobrium to allow the federal government to outlaw medical marijuana and gay marriage regardless of what the citizens of any individual state want.

My father explained his vision of TRUE federalism as "50 nations with one currency, military and road system". As always, the IDEAL government is a powerful one ran by good people; the place where I diverge from many fellow progressives is much the same- how powerful do you want the WORST, not the best government to be? A federal government that has extended its purview via the interstate commerce clause to end lunch counter segregation is one that can, and does, use the same exact legal principal to shut down pot clubs.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. One piece of conservative thought I find a lot of legitimacy in....
...and think progressives would do well to address is the general "dunderheadedness" of government. I use that term loosely and politely, mind you.

What I mean is that our system of government, as prescribed by the Constitution, is not meant to be some swift guardian angel immediately ready to do battle with any difficulties that immediately arise. Most federal processes are long and cumbersome on their own, and the bureacracy that has arisen over the years has not helped things.

While the situation with Hurricane Katrina was affected by some of the unique (And typical)characteristics of New Orleans, FEMA would've botched that job anywhere. This, in addition to other factors, is why I think serious thought needs to be given to concepts like nationalized health care....besides the idea of having Republicans in charge of such a system, which would be bound to happen at some point or another.

Maybe I've missed a study or essay on this idea somewhere, but I think this concept of the design of government has intentionally slow is something that many progressives have failed to address (I welcome correction on this, however).

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Zambero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Goldwater definitely became more socially liberal over the years
To his credit, and unlike the current GOP, he was loathe to forge a coalition with the religious right in order to pursue an economic agenda. Goldwater was fiscal conservative to the max, but in his view those policies had to make it on their own, and not as a vote-securing by-product of selling one's political soul to a Robertson or Falwell. I'll credit the man with honesty and integrity, even if I didn't abide with many of his positions.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. But, like a true conservative, he only was liberal on issues
where he had a personal connection.

He was, for example, an advocate for gay rights (such as gays in the military and non-discrimination in hiring) in his later years.

But a lot of that is only because he personally knew homosexuals.


Liberals care about people and want to help because its the right thing to do.


The only time conservatives seem to give a shit is when they have been personally affected by an issue.
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Zambero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #23
39. There's still a big difference
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 12:46 AM by Zambero
between private sympathy and public advocacy. I'm sure a lot of conservatives know and care about gay friends, family, and co-workers. But how many of them actually bother to step up to the plate and take a stand against discrimination? What has Mr. Cheney done, for example except to perpetuate the status quo? No, most of them ultimately decide not to make waves, personal impacts notwithstanding, lest it compromise their political standing with the RR. Caring about people in need is what SHOULD motivate political action. If Goldwater received a wake up call one day because he knew gays who were getting a raw deal simply because of who they are, then hats off to him for deciding to do the right thing, despite the flak he'd ultimately get from the "true believers". "Progressive" means just that -- seeking and attaining progress, in the areas of social justice and equality for example. Liberals should be willing to accept meaningful progress regardless of where it originates, whether it's from a Ted Kennedy or a Barry Goldwater.
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lwcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Good point, but...
...at least Goldwater had a brain -- and he used it, unlike today's lockstep neo-cons.

The one that really gets me is Ronald Reagan, and how he's practically up on Mt. Rushmore. The Repubs have, it seems, permanently elevated that vacant, valueless creep into an American Hero. Yes, I know he had Alzheimers, but are we supposed to celebrate Mr. Iran-Contra as an Affirmative Action hire?

I'm ambivalent about all the Eisenhower love going around, as well. Though he did make that great speech about the military-industrial complex, he didn't exactly usher in a progressive era. It's tragic that the general who faced down the Axis didn't have the stones to stand up to Joe McCarthy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_mccarthy#McCarthy_and_Eisenhower

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"
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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. It's about the comparison.
Goldwater, Eisenhower, Nixon, even that idiot Reagan all look so good, when you stand them next to the stinking simian currently in office.
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lwcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. No doubt about that
Edited on Wed Sep-20-06 11:31 AM by lwcon
The list of people who can't be favorably compared to Bush is getting smaller and smaller.

As I said the other day, "let us rank among Bush's accomplishments making it possible to feel nostalgic for Richard Nixon and Saddam Hussein."

Inspired by your post, here's a discussion about who Bush has yet to out-evil.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. Hi Bette Noir!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. "I knew Barry Goldwater. You, Mr Reagan, are no Barry Golwater"
I didn't actually know Goldwater, of course, and I I don't think annyone ever had a need to utter the phrase I concocted and used as the title of this post, but I'm sure you get what I mean.

I have never understood the veneration St Ronnie gets. His best trait was making many people feel good, and he did that well, to be honest. Beyond that, he has very few traits that I, personally, would ever call 'redeeming'.

I don't know this at all, but I'd guess, back when St Ronnie was a Democrat, he was praying at the feet of Scoop Jackson rather than George McGovern.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. People here are pining for "true Conservatives"
and it sickens me
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I think you might be misinterpreting things a bit ......
... at least that's how I see my own interest in 'true conservatives'. I'll assume you'd put Goldwater in that category.

I think what you see as 'pining' or 'fetishism' (as you phrased it earlier) is a desire to have a counterbalance in our two party system with which we could deal honestly and honorably.

To grossly oversimplify, that would be a return to a time when our reps could argue all day on the House floor, and then have a few drinks at Duke Zeibert's at night. It was the bastardized modern version of 'conservatives' that were the demon spawn of Newt Gingrich that changed that honorable debate to the debasement of today.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Honestly, I don't think todays conservatives are a "bastardized version"
I just think they are more open about what they want, more aggressive in getting it, and more willing to pander for fundraising (by appealing to the religious right, for example)
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Mr. Blonde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. I wasn't alive when Goldwater ran for president
And the majority of what I know about him came from this documentary. With that said, he seemed very open with what he wanted. Time and again the LBJ campaign adviser said that Goldwater wasn't very good politcally because of how he would say exactly what he thought. There are a lot of things you can accuse him of, but hiding his true agenda is not one of them. And doing things strictly for political reasons is also not his MO.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. Maybe trying to shame republicans into turning away from fascism
Edited on Wed Sep-20-06 01:06 PM by glitch
which as authoritarian personality types they are all to susceptable to, and returning to a democratic republic with at least a civil discourse, in which case I am all for it.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. Agreed. Along w/ the "Bush isn't a Conservative" talking point.
Why do we hear so many Liberal/Progressive talkers praising Conservatism, in contrast to Bush's position on the political spectrum? I'm so tired of the John Dean, Kevin Phillips, etc interviews where Bush is derided as not a true "Goldwater" Conservative, as if that means any thing.

Bush *is* a Conservative, and he and the rest of the ROG are simply the inevitable result of Conservatism stripped of any accountability... legal, ethical or moral. Conservatism is a selfish, unfeeling approach to managing our civilization.
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lwcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. Nice piece, Bobcat
Bush would update AuH20's famous quote into: "Extremism in the abuse of liberty is no vice."

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"
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BobcatJH Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well put
I agree!
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
8. Here's a list of when this replays. I'm sure going to catch one of these!
Listings Search Results
Searched next 14 days for "Mr. Conservative" - found 18 matches (1-18 below)

Change Date Range: Next 7 DaysNext 14 DaysNext 24 Hours


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sort: By Relevance | Chronologically

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBO2, Wed Sep 20 09:30pm EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBO, Thu Sep 21 08:45am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOHD, Thu Sep 21 08:45am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOLAT, Thu Sep 21 08:45am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBO, Sun Sep 24 11:30am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOHD, Sun Sep 24 11:30am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOLAT, Sun Sep 24 11:30am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOLAT, Mon Sep 25 02:25am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBO, Tue Sep 26 11:00am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOHD, Tue Sep 26 11:00am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOLAT, Tue Sep 26 11:00am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBO, Wed Sep 27 12:30am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOHD, Wed Sep 27 12:30am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOLAT, Wed Sep 27 12:30am EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBO, Fri Sep 29 04:00pm EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOHD, Fri Sep 29 04:00pm EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOLAT, Fri Sep 29 04:00pm EDT

• Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater
HBOSIG, Sun Oct 01 08:30am EDT


I didn'tsee the first HBO airing, but I did see his Grand daughter interviewed on one of the talk shows. Sorry I don't remember much about BG, but it sure sounds like ethe Pub Party was a much better group of people back then!!!!
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
14. Saw a recent RW article on Goldwater
It had a bunch of quotes from Goldwater extolling religion in public life, and denigrating those who opposed things like prayer in schools.

So, while he is liberal compared to today's Republicans, he is still far from a liberal overall, or even a moderate. It's just that the RW has been so successful at moving the political dialogue to the right that it makes Goldwater look like a moderate.

Good write-up, however.

McCain is more conservative than Goldwater as well. However, McCain appears moderate because everybody else in his party is way way way to the right.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
15. "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice"
Betrayal? Perish the thought! Today's Republican party is simply taking Goldwater to his logical conclusion. The only possible quibble would be some egghead debate over the definition of "liberty" and the real he-men of today's GOP don't waste their time with such namby-pamby pontificating. Prolly get crushed by a giant can of Milwaukee's Best if they did.
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
16. I've met both Barry and CC
My mom, who died this summer, was the head of Maine for Goldwater, and he visited us a couple of times. I still have a photo of the two of us at the door of his campaign jet. I met CC several times in my work, and enjoyed talking about Barry with her.

I didn't agree with everything Goldwater said, but he always seemed to me to be an authentic, caring, thoughtful person who was open to new ideas. He pretty much proved that in later years as the dean of the Senate. He walked to the White House to tell Nixon that he would get no help in the Senate, and it was time to go. The next night, Nixon left.

He was leaving the GOP in his later years. He backed very liberal candidates, one a Latino woman IIRC, and didn't have much good to say about Reagan or Bush. He was, in short, a decent guy.

I wish there were a lot more like him, but there just aren't, at least in the GOP. I was a registered Republican for several years, a hangover from my admiration for Goldwater. Plus, the GOP in Connecticut was a lot more liberal than some of the Dems back in those days.

I wish I had HBO, but I'll buy this when it comes out on DVD. Goldwater was really one of a kind, in a very good way.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. "Plus, the GOP in Conn...t was a lot more liberal than some of the Dems "
What a coinkydink. I was born and rasied in Ct and lived there thru 72 (except for my Navy stint). That's when I was a Republican, too, and actually felt good about it.

That seems several lifetimes ago.
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WinstonSmith4740 Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. You're not putting words in his mouth...
"In fact, without putting words in his mouth, I feel confident in saying that Goldwater would scarcely recognize today's ultra-right Republicans, let alone appreciate the regressive path they've chosen."

I saw an interview with Goldwater done a few years before his death, and HE said (I'm paraphrasing here), "these guys would consider me a liberal"...and he wasn't even talking about the current nut cases in charge. I'm pretty sure, that at the latest, it was when Gingrich & his cronies were screwing up Washington. It might have even been during George the Elders reign.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Hi WinstonSmith4740!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
24. Still, Goldwater was a right-wing pig of pigs!
Now, republican Rockefeller could be admired for "most social and fiscal issues."

The scene was set for the battle over the heart and soul of the Republican Party. After years as the target of ridicule, the conservative wing of the party had staged an impressive comeback through a grass-roots campaign in the South, the Southwest and the West. Their leader was Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater, a staunch critic of the liberal slant he perceived among his fellow Republicans. Accusing Rockefeller of blurring the lines between Democrats and Republicans, Goldwater called for harsher policies on the issues that then preoccupied the nation. He supported states' rights, lower taxes, and a strengthened military.

Rockefeller was a Cold Warrior himself, but he strongly disagreed with the Arizona senator on most social and fiscal issues. He argued for a more mainstream and progressive Republican agenda, one that would not turn its back on people in need, and warned voters against Goldwater's shoot-from-the-hip conservatism: "Americans will not and should not respond to a political creed that cherishes the past solely because it offers an excuse for shutting out the hard facts and difficult tasks of the present," he said, accusing Goldwater of being out of touch with reality. Barring a miracle, Republicans had few chances of winning the presidential race in the wake of Kennedy's assassination in November of 1963. But as the campaign rhetoric escalated, it became clear that the real issue was not who would win in November. What was at stake was a major shift in the control of the Republican Party —- and the end of the hegemony of the so-called liberal Eastern wing. "First let's take over the party," Goldwater told his aides. "Then we'll go from there."

The atmosphere at the Republican convention was heated as Nelson Rockefeller stepped up to the podium to address the belligerent crowd: "During this year I have crisscrossed this nation, fighting … to keep the Republican party the party of all the people ... and warning of the extremist threat, its danger to the party, and danger to the nation," he said, taking his time as the crowd cheered "We want Barry!" "These extremists feed on fear, hate and terror, no program for America and the Republican Party... operate from dark shadows of secrecy. It is essential that this convention repudiate here and now any doctrinaire, militant minority whether Communist, Ku Klux Klan or Birchers." It was, according to many, Nelson Rockefeller's finest moment -- but it did little to stop the conservative wave that was transforming the GOP.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/rockefellers/peopleevents/e_1964.html
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
25. I'm sorry I missed it!
I hope they re-run it so I can catch it, thanks!
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
29. What about the corpo-fascists
While the radical right has currently hi-jacked the Republican Party, it doesn't mean that if they were suddenly raptured that the party would be set right, so to speak. They're wrong about literally every-friggin-thing - from religion to corporatism to war to society. This really bothers me that people seem to be buying into this Goldwater fever, Republicans have been asswipes since the day Lincoln was shot. Even Teddy Roosevelt left the Republican Party.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I'm not seeing a lot of 'buy-in' here. I'm seeing a lot of discussion
To call anything in this thread 'buy-in' is kinda like the brazillian or more threads yesterday about Abedinijinisinifinijed. Discussin' and buyin' are two different things.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Yes well
I think "Its funny you mention him as a father of conservatism. He is, of course, but that's not the direct ancestry of the neocons (who I see differently than honest conservatives). That would be back to the Scoop Jackson wing of the Democratic party ..... who, at the time I was a Goldwater guy, I absolutely despised." explains an awful lot.

It's kind of like those who say holding Iraq accountable is the same thing as being a Bush warmonger. The people who were warmongering in the 60's & 70's are the precise exact people who are warmongering now, Rumsfled, Cheney et al. Just because a Democrat supports a strong international presence and leadership doesn't mean that Democrats support democracy at gun point. And just because somebody believes Republicans who say they don't support "interfering" in foreign affairs, doesn't mean those same Republicans haven't advocated corporations muddling up foreign affairs for decades (or forever, since they were known as kings).
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. How does that 'explain' anything?
I was a Republican in my youth. I was a Goldwater type person in my youth. In the course of living my life, I evolved over to the left .... and find myself, even today, moving further in that direction.

I also speculated where Goldwater may have evolved and expressed a wish.

What does *any* of that 'explain'?

I'm confused.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Explains the "not seeing the 'buying in'"
You're certainly entitled to admire anybody you want and have any political view you want. As you admire/admired Goldwater, I can understand where you wouldn't see the misplaced adoration. I also think that some folks think they have evolved to the left where they've really evolved to is libertarianism. These are the folks who want to 'help Americans first', can't be global cops, roll up the borders and stay out of the world. That's a view, but just because one supports a more JFK internationalism doesn't mean they are or ever were neocons no matter what any PNACer tries to say about it now.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
33. I count myself among Goldwater's admirers
And, no, I don't agree with much of what he said.

Goldwater counted among his friends Jack Kennedy and Hubert Humphrey. He really didn't like Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon.

If there's a pattern there, it has more to do with character than ideology. He liked honest men and dispised liars. We shouldn't ahve any doubt about whether Bush or most of his aides would be on his shit list.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
34. Here's the thing, Goldwater was considered crazy right wing for his time
The fact that he referred to himself as the liberal wing of the GOP in the 1990's really says something about today's Republican party, even if Goldwater isn't exactly a liberal.
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Malidictus Maximus Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Right Wing/Left Wing
Inaccurate terminology, IMHO. It makes more sense, perhaps, to use a matrix with social issues on one axis and economic issues on the other. Some folks are very liberal on personal freedoms but parsimonious toward the government; others are very much in favor of enforcing certain behaviors (be it racial sensitivity OR 'Christian family values') but quite willing to be spendthrift with public funds.
Is a Libertarian 'right' or 'left' wing? What about what I consider to be 'corporate oligarchy'; the 'corporate socialism of Halliburton- does it fit into a left/right paradigm?

FWIW I am a former Libertarian who has come to realize that taking care of the environment is a necessity, universal health care a right and a national energy policy a matter of survival, but I am uncomfortable with the use of the state as an instrument for redistributing income, the concept of censorship in any form in any way and even the most benign and benevolent of foreign intervention. My Fundie BIL calls mine the philosophy of Guns, Drugs and Sodomy:-)
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. The GOP has gone to the right on both social and economic issues
You are correct that it is more complicated than left versus right, but with the GOP's current status you can classify it as a right wing shift. Obviously they have gone to the authoritarian right on social issues, much farther than Goldwater was comfortable with. And their economic stances I would call right wing as well. It may be considered more libertarian because they support a more "free market" policy but in my opinion it is farther to the right because they intentionally support corporate oligarchy and I don't think that libertarians really want a state controlled by giant corporations.

That being said, I think that sometimes libertarians are misled into supporting Republican economic policies because they think that it will increase free market competition when all it really does is increase corporate control.
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countmyvote4real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
38. Snow White. Jesus. Mohamed. Khali. Buddha. Paul Boone. Zeus.
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 12:34 AM by countmyvote4real
(Pick your myth.)

This was a great read until it needed to somehow validate the POV by invoking Jesus as a substantial back-up and warrant for the review. Perhaps it was a choice of irony or a lame attempt to use the current RW talking points to underscore the contrast of the viewpoints of Barry Goldwater.

It just seems unnecessary to me (as a born again, subsequently self-abortive “Christian.”) More better: Goldwater’s conservatism has been corrupted by cults (cloaking a mantel of Jesus) that disregard his strong belief in the separation of Church & State.

And to bring it in full circle, I must call it, “Myth & State.”
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countmyvote4real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. If anyone was offended by this post of mine...
Please contact me personally. It's very easy to do here on DU. We can actually discuss or debate our issues in public or private. Your choice, whoever you are.

Unfortunately, some coward (oops, I mean an anonymous ego) made a choice to report my previous post to the mods. I was temporarily gagged and severely pissed-off by the entire DU operation, but I'm back; however temporary that may be. (I’m going to stick it to everybody, before I finally go away.)

If I must be summarily silenced from DU, well I'll go away knowing that one cannot equate Jesus to Snow White. (I’m pretending.) My sincere apologies to Jesus. If my previous post somehow rocked his world off the precipice of true belief, then I didn't realize that the mythology was so vulnerable.

Are we not all free to believe in whatever defines our core beliefs and values? I'm still struggling with the issue of how my post MIGHT have come in conflict with DU's rules.

Talk to me directly. Let me respond. Don't gag me.

OR has * world come to DU. YIKES!

Something to think about if anybody still follows this long dead thread
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 05:24 AM
Response to Original message
44. More sickening revisionism about the original wingnut poster boy
Fuck Goldwater
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