How to bring Dean down in FL? State Dem Chair declares Kerry winner.

[madfloridian]

Earlier polls done throughout Florida among Democrats had Dean and Clark nearly tied. No one else really close. Suddenly Kerry is the projected winner here, declared by the state party head. This is how it is done.

Many of us wrote letters to the editors protesting this comment by Maddox, but none have appeared in papers yet. In other words, we are not being heard. Maddox is.


From the New York Times on January 29th:
SNIP...""Dean is a tougher sell," Mr. Torres said. "Not because of who he is
and who he represents, but because he's perceived as being an angry man."
In Florida, Scott Maddox, the state Democratic chairman, offered a similar
view as he compared Mr. Kerry's prospects in his state with those of Dr.
Dean.

"Florida will be the battleground state in the election," Mr. Maddox said,
"and I think John Kerry can absolutely carry the state of Florida. The thing
with Dean is he seems — his persona — is more liberal. I don't think he's as
liberal as they make him out to be, but the question is could he shake the
moniker."

This is how it is done. A local DEC member even suggested they were surprised to still see "us" at meetings.

You know all the ABB stuff? It is a little upsetting right now. Dean is very popular in our area, but then there is no way you could know that, is there?

[quinnox]

1. At this point, I seriously doubt Dean will

make it to Florida. He just set a bar that he has to win Wisconsin or he drops out.

[madfloridian]

2. My issue is much larger than that. Please read my post.

Thank you.

[lancdem]

6. Please don't take this the wrong way

but he's being realistic. Dean hasn't even won a primary. Notice he's not talking up Edwards or Clark, and they at least won a primary. Dean put all his eggs in two baskets, Iowa and N.H., figuring if he won those two the nomination would be his. It probably would have. But his all or nothing strategy failed, and now he's left with the latter.

[madfloridian]

9. So you are saying it is ok for Dem chairs to speak for one candidate?

This far ahead?

So why vote then? Why bother?

You think it is ok that our own DEC really does not care if we come to meetings or not?

[jeter]

20. madfloridian, jeez Louise, is this your first election?

Party chairmen endorse candidates all the time. Especially local ones.

Dean was ahead sure. But that was BEFORE Kerry won.

That is the reason Iowa and New Hampshire are so important, because they give you a lot of momemtum. That's what Kerrys got.

Don't take it so personally. It's just the way it goes. The party is rallying behind Kerry. That gives him an even greater boost.

Another thing to consider is that Lieberman and Gephardt supporters made up 25% of the Democratic vote. That vote has gone almost entirely to Kerry.

Many people who assumed that Dean would be the nominee and supported him based on that, are leaving and supporting Kerry.

You add that all together: disaffected Dean supporters; those who were undecided; Lieberman and Gephardt supporters; and original Kerry supporters - you understand his huge jump in the polls.

It's not a conspiracy, so relax.

[madfloridian]

21. There goes the humiliation factor again.

If I am made to sound like a conspiracy freak type, then I become less important. That is what is being done here.

Actually my post was not so much about one candidate, but about the process. It was about how the local parties work here as well.

Geez Louise, I must be simplistic if I think this is not ok. That is your message here.

I do not think it is ok. Please do not make me sound ignorant. I am not.

[boxster]

25. I guess the question is: are you going to decide to vote on your own,

or are you going to listen to what these people say?

Most people make up their own minds. Two Democratic leaders voicing an opinion that Kerry looks like a better opponent for Bush in November than Dean isn't going to sway the masses.

And, again, why is it wrong for these two gentleman to voice an opinion that may or may not affect some voters in ONE STATE, but it's completely ok for Al Gore to try to influence the entire primary/causus process by supporting Dean?

Somehow, I don't think you would be expressing the same outrage if they were opining that Dean was the better choice to face Bush in November.

[boxster]

3. Where in that article does it say anything about "declaring" a winner?

Looks to me like Maddox states that he thinks that Kerry can carry the state of Florida in the general election and feels that he is likelier to do so than Dean.

Sorry, but I don't see how that is declaring Kerry the winner in Florida. Sounds like he's stating a preference and stating who he thinks can win Florida in November.

[Born_a_Democrat]

4. I was initially a Dean Supporter (The only one that sparked my interest)

But honestly after seeing that although I like him, many Democrats around the country believe he is not electable, I will not vote for him...

I want * out and frankly the worst of this sorry lot we have left is still better than *

So with that in mind...Go Kerry!...or whoever

[aquart]

5. Angry and liberal. Republican talking points.

What a surprise.

[Skip Intro]

7. Its not a conspiracy, so stop saying that

</sarcasm>

And where did the impression come from that Dean is an angry man? I've never seen him come across as angry. It couldn't be that "scream" speech that was repeated 700 times in less than a week, could it? Never seen an angry man with such a wonderful smile.

The establishment, the machine, whatever you want to call it - the Dem party and the media, in concert, have tried like hell to end Dean's campaign.

The thing a lot of non-Dean supporters, many of whom will label this a "conspriacy theory," the thing they apparently don't get is that the powers aren't trying to stop Dean, they are trying to stop us, the people, from regaining control of our government.

Its sickening.

[wabeewoman]

14. Amen.

Funny how its a conspiracy theory now that the media is against us but prior to the Dean beat down it was accepted as fact that the media was owned lock, stock and barrel by repugs. I am very disappointed at how many DUers bought the repug talking points.

[madfloridian]

8. So it appears this is ok to most here.

I find that surprising. We can not get our voices heard by the media here, and what Maddox says resonates.

I find it surprising that this is ok.

[D G]

10. I think that your letters to the editor should be published

But I do not see that Maddox declared Kerry a winner in this article. He's saying Kerry COULD win. Maddox is giving his opinion about Kerry and Dean's respective chances. It is not surprising that a newspaper would solicit his opinion, as he is the state Democratic chairman.

I am sorry that your state Dem chairman is not reflecting your views, and I would suggest you work to oust him. And I hope that your letters to the editor get published, because it is important that your side be heard.

[madfloridian]

11. Maddox almost destroyed Dean's chances here by saying that.

He did not just give an opinion, he gave the GOP angry and liberal slant.

It is not just about Dean ultimately. It is about the fact that we are upstarts to the party, and we must be squelched.

It is not ok.

[D G]

13. I agree, it is not OK

and your voices should be heard.

[Fleshdancer]

12. Clark and Dean supporters need to jump on this one. n/t

[madfloridian]

15. Our Dean group has protested it.

We have called the state party with no response. We have emailed Maddox with no response.

We are upstarts and we must go. We do not even get responses.

[paulk]

27. Politics is about winning

"Upstarts" get attention when they prove they can win.

ALL politicians are craven opportunists. They want to be on the winning side. That includes Maddox. And John Kerry. And Howard Dean.

[madfloridian]

30. Well, Maddox probably won for Kerry.

I know what you mean.

[madfloridian]

16. There once was a time.......

when this would have been upsetting to most Democrats and especially to those at DU.

That time is apparently gone now. So is the party I have been a member of for almost a lifetime. Things have really changed.

:shrug:

[boxster]

17. No offense, but how is this any different than candidates getting

endorsements from people like Al Gore? Or anyone in a leadership role in the Democratic Party for that matter.

It is different, because it's not even an endorsement. It's an opinion. They think Kerry is more likely to win Florida in the general election than Dean is. So what?

And, again, nowhere in what you posted does it say that either of those people was declaring Kerry the winner. They are quite obviously offering an opinion on who they feel can win Florida in November.

Sorry, but I just don't see why this is such a huge issue. A couple of people said that they thought Kerry was a better candidate than Dean regarding the general election and Florida. Expressing an opinion doesn't seem like a capital offense.

Kerry is the obvious front-runner right now. This kind of comment isn't terribly different from those we were hearing when Dean was the front-runner. In fact, it's a lot less pointed, considering many in the party declared Kerry's candidacy dead.

[madfloridian]

19. I am surprised you even asked that.

I don't know how to answer you. Art Torres is the CA Democratic chair, I believe, and Scott Maddox is the FL Democratic chair.

They are not just a couple of people, and they do not answer our phone calls or letters.

What Maddox said about Dean is using GOP talking points, and it is destructive.

The party left us behind, I fear, and now is making fun of our candidate and us. That is not a good thing. When your local Democrats are surprised to see you still standing.....that is very sad.

I am glad this is ok with you. It seems to be ok with others as well. No big deal.

[boxster]

22. Making fun? Where?

I honestly think that you're blowing this waaaaay out of proportion.

SNIP..."Dean is a tougher sell," Mr. Torres said. "Not because of who he is and who he represents, but because he's perceived as being an angry man."

He's perceived as being an angry man.

Is this statement not true? Of course it is. Can you possibly argue that Dean has NOT been perceived as being an angry man by the media and by his opponents? This certainly isn't a GOP talking point. It's reality and an accurate assessment of the current situation.

Torres certainly isn't making fun of anyone. And, he's not declaring Kerry the winner, no matter how hard you spin his statement. He's saying that the public and media perception of Dean gives Kerry a better chance in Florida in November.

At this point, it's pretty hard to argue with that assessment, since Kerry has won 7 of the first 9 states and has huge leads in the polls in Wisconsin, Dean's self-proclaimed last stand.

The party left no one behind. Dean lost Iowa before the huge media blowup about his post-caucus speech and, frankly, I think it's time for people to acknowledge that his campaign bears some responsibility for that instead of blaming everyone else on the planet. Even Dean himself has acknowledged it, saying that the Iowa/NH strategy was a big gamble and it didn't work out.

[PassingFair]

38. "No offense, but"

Gawd, I hate it when people start their arguments like that.
Well, as the attitude here seems to want to reward lemming-like running to the candidate of McAuliffe,'s, From's and Reed's choice, try this on for size.

NO OFFENSE, BUT:
I understand that this election has to be about anybody but Bush.

I also understand that Howard Dean has a better chance of beating Bush. How many dissafected Republicans do you think Kerry is going to pick up? Don't waste too much time doing the math on this one, the answer is NONE! In contrast, I know many Repukes that are looking hard at Dean's balanced budget mentality and straight talk. Dean is I REPEAT, our most electable candidate.

I am happy to be able to vote for Howard Dean. In the past, I have too often had to hold my nose with one hand and vote with the other. So, here's to two handed voting!!!

Thank you Dr. Dean!

[boxster]

43. Not so fast with the accusations, PF. I'm *not* a Kerry supporter.

So, don't accuse me of "lemming-like" behavior. I find it curious that *some* Dean supporters constantly berate supporters of other candidates as lemmings, stupid, and unable to think for ourselves. Yeah, that attitude is going to pull a lot of people to Howard Dean.

I'm a Clark supporter, but this blaming 2 people in Florida for Dean's precipitous slide in the race is misguided. Read the original comments from the two officials and tell me where exactly Kerry is declared the winner or where these two officials are "making fun of" Howard Dean, as has been claimed in this very thread.

Good luck. It's not there.

And, I disagree. Howard Dean does NOT have a better chance to beat Bush than Clark or Kerry or Edwards, for that matter. He blew $40 million and accomplished nothing in Iowa and NH. He's already stated that if he doesn't win Wisconsin, he's out. That is not the sign of the candidate with the *best* chance to beat Bush in November. If you want a sign, look at the head-to-head polls vs. Bush. Kerry is leading every single one of them.

[democratreformed]

18. Just another example of the dominant theme this year: "You're nobody

unless you're SOMEBODY".

[Fleshdancer]

24. or: "You're nobody unless you're an insider" n/t

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

23. Well, it *is* Florida...

...

[mikehiggins]

26. The Pinellas DEC will not endorse a candidate before the primary.

I thought this was the policy of the party in Florida. There are too many Dean, Clark, Kerry and Edwards supporters in this state for an early endorsement to do anything but fracture the party along unacceptable lines.

That being said, Maddox's remarks do not constitute an official endorsement of Kerry or anyone else. He didn't even mention Clark in his comments and we are all over the state organization like white on rice.

As to the newspapers, I've had little trouble getting letters into the SPTimes, which is a pretty reputable rag. Perhaps the papers you wrote to just didn't think the story newsworthy enough to bother with.

After all, considering recent elections, I'm not sure what value an endorsement by the State leadership might have. Clark was just endorsed by 55 ambassadors, etc., and that didn't make the papers either. Just keep plugging away for Dean (no, no, I mean come over to Clark! Whew!) at the local level and don't concern yourself too much with stuff like newspaper quotes.

If people listened to these guys, Jeb would be a bad memory instead of a sitting governor.

[madfloridian]

29. People do listen, unfortunately.

They don't pay much attention for a while, then they start to notice comments like that one of Maddox. Instill the doubt, and wait.

We wrote to several papers in Central Florida. I have had many published in our local paper, but not this one. Not this time.

I don't mind if Maddox prefers one over the other. I mind his comments about Dean. They are GOP talking points. Dean has a good type of anger that our party should have, and he is most certainly not a liberal. He misrepresented him completely. That is wrong.

I do resent our local party being rather distant to us. I know of one person is just not going to DEC meetings anymore because of it.

[Mairead]

28. Dean's problem is that his campaign lacks substance and he lacks history

So when they marginalise him, he has no way to recover. You can only say 'I raised a lot of money and got thousands interested in the process' so many times before it wears out, particularly when the 'thousands interested in the process' don't show up at the polls despite all the priceless free publicity.

[madfloridian]

31. Explain lacks "substance".

Not sure how you mean that.

[Mairead]

32. Well, his policies are all basically the status quo

He's not talking about any substantive changes as a matter of policy. It's like the rhetorical opposition that the invertebrate Dems have been pumping out: lots of 'red meat' posturing, no credible promises.

[madfloridian]

33. Uh, Dean's policies are hardly status quo.

Totally disagree.

[Mairead]

36. Well, I dunno what to say, then, because I've looked for them on his site

but didn't find any. All his policies are status-quo, though sometimes with a layer of tax-and-spend on top (e.g. his healthcare proposal).

I'm not trying to be critical, honestly. I'd much rather be able to state with joy that he has a ton of truly progressive policies just like DK does. It'd be GREAT to be able to put him too on my dance card; I'd then have two strings to my bow, and what could be the downside to that?

[Nicholas_J]

34. Most Recent Florida Polls:

Survey USA 1/24-26 MoE 4.9%

Kerry 38%
Dean 16%
Edwards 14%
Clark 10%
Lieberman 8%
Sharpton 6%
other 3%
undecided 5%

http://www.dcpoliticalreport.com/CurrentPolls.htm

Dean has been down and out here in Florida for some time. Liebeman was in the lead for most of the months prior to Iowa.

I went to a Dean rally in Florida and it had about 100 people, most of who came in from bordering states like Georgia,Alabama, and as far away as South Carolina

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

35. Kerry ahead 2-1. Why the whining?

Oh. I get it. It is the MEDIA!

LOL

[mikehiggins]

40. I have seen slews of Dean supporters on street corners

waving signs at passing cars here in Largo/Clearwater. This is the only county, I have been told, that went overwhelmingly for Gore in 2000 and has a special desire among Democrats for ABB.

That may be Kerry's strength right now since he has been fairly well-ordained as the "front-runner" in the media but it won't take much of a stumble for his support to fall apart.

The statement about gay marriage may do it. Lots of gays down here and they consider themselves a really oppressed minority (for pretty good reason, I'd say). Kerry didn't make himself any friends with his blunt opposition to court mandated gay marriage.

Iknow that's politics as usual, but that is also one of the caveats people have against Kerry. He represents politics as usual for the next four years. The only difference (and I don't deny it is a big difference, and I'll vote for Kerry in a heartbeat if he's our nominee) is that he's better than Bush.

The polls showing Bush's popularity dropping may actually may hurt Kerry as the days roll on. If it comes to be seen that just about ANY credible candidate can beat Bush, then the "Kerry magic" may prove as vulnerable as the "Dean Juggernaut" of earlier days.

[boxster]

44. Interesting. The date of that poll is before these comments were made.

So, these two Democratic leaders were looking at a more than two-to-one lead for Kerry and had the nerve to say that they thought he was the best candidate to face Bush this fall.

Shame on them! (sarcasm)

In other words, these comments had nothing to do with Dean's situation. He was 22 points behind Kerry before they were ever made.

[mitchum]

37. 0 for 9

what a troubling detail

[madfloridian]

39. Note the date on the quote I gave.

Thank you.

Boy, has this forum changed. We used to think the people should vote, not party heads.

[mrdmk]

41. I agree Dean is being shaken at this time

Dean wants to upset the apple cart. He wants to change Military Startagy, corporate mergers, taxes, NAFTA, international relations and probly the Democratic Party, perhaps more. He is not making many friends with people in power at this time. This is why you are observing the backlash seen now. Stick with your canidate and do what you have been doing. It is the only way of getting the word out.

[D G]

42. I still don't get it!

How is an opinion of your state Dem party chair being printed in the newspaper equivalent to preventing people from voting?

Do you expect the party chair of your state, when asked his opinion on the current state of the Democratic primaries, to say "No comment?"

When Gore endorsed Dean, there was a lot of handwringing on DU about Gore "deciding" the election, which I thought was silly because Gore does not control how I vote. And neither does my state party chair.

Please give the general public a little more credit for thinking for themselves.

[boxster]

45. Note the date on the poll in response #34.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=274616&mesg_id=277703&page=

Dean was 22 points behind Kerry days before these comments were ever made. These two people certainly aren't responsible for his decline in Florida.

[John_H]

46. Balme Dean. He's the one who ran away from his record.