Democrats lost the November elections fast, in the last two weeks

[alcibiades_mystery]

The response to the BushCo new Iraq push has been absolutely awful, and it is indeed the story now that Democrats "appear divided." The incredibly stupid "cut and run" rhetoric is taking hold and will carry the day. Is the "MSM" complicit? Of course. Watching the three uber-Republicans Campbell Brown, Tim Russert, and Norah O'Donnell discuss the failures of the Democrats on the Today show this morning with such glee (O'Donnell was smiling broadly through the entire report, quite a contrast from her grim visage and wincing when having to report on low Bush poll numbers) was disgusting in the extreme, but that's neither here nor there. The Democratic Party is apparently terminally unable to get its proverbial shit together, and it's beginning to get really fucking frustrating watching the so-called experts get out-maneuvered time and again with such amateurish GOP antics.

I say this in frustration, and maybe also because the baby has been crying all morning for some unknown reason and it's getting a bit under my skin, but I'd rather channel that through this forum than back at her. ;-)

[monarch]

1. The election is still in November.

We just have to do a better job with the media.

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. How many times to we have to get beat on this stupid "security" platform

Before we have a coherent, unified response to anything they throw out on it? How many fucking times? Better job with the media? In the next 4 months?!? They've been running this bullshit for five fucking years, and we still look like lost little children whenver they haul it out. It's fucking pathetic. Should we "stay the course?" Er, um, er, um, well on the one hand, and on the other, er, um, er, um.

People don't like weakness, and this fucking ridiculous response is just that. Yes, work like hell for November, but in the after-action report, I'll suggest that everyone can look at two weeks in June to see where the disaster hit this time. And I'm furious about it.

[doc mercer]

2. November

Have to agree .... the Dems has no one with balls right now

I am frustrated and get ready for the destruction forthcoming
with Bush able to snort coke his last 2 yrs and bomb whoever
he feels like

[TayTay]

3. So we should be the party of rigidity that fears debate?

The Democrats are divided over Iraq. Would you prefer a strong-arm tactic that totally disregards these differences of opinion and imposes artificial order on people. Would you really prefer that the Democrats ignore the issue of Iraq?

The US public is genuinely divided over this issue. The fact that the Democrats have differences of opinion makes them part of this ongoing dialogue with the public. It is possible to have a debate that invokes the issues in the way that the public feels them, as conflicting, difficult and at times painful. There is nothing wrong with this.

Do you really think the public wants a lock-step regime that has imposed an opinion from above and will not brook any dissent? Isn't that what we are trying to get away from? Isn't the sponsorship of free and open debate one of the things we are 'selling' to the American public this fall as a reason to elect Democrats?

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. I'd prefer a response that doesn't look like this:

Er, eum, er, um. Well, on the one hand, and, er, on the other, and er, um, there's also the position that, er, um, er, um.

Because that's what it looks like. You can have a big tent party and still have coherent, unified responses. Or, if you have more than one response, you can frame that in such a way that you don't look like a blithering pack of imbeciles. If we're selling open debate, can we please sell it, instead of selling half-stepping, timidity, and know-nothingness?

[Totally Committed]

8. AMEN!

I agree wholeheartedly!

TC

[TayTay]

13. How do you propose taking this out of the debate?

This is how many Americans engage in this debate. They want to do the right thing, but don't know what it is. They want the troops to come home and want Iraq to be stable.

I think if you would engage a lot of ordinary voters in debate on this, the talk might just mirror the 'oh, ahm, er, on the other hand' thing that you disdain.

Americans have no consensus on Iraq. They believe in contradictory things. It is not weakness to acknowledge this, it could be a great strength. We, as Democrats, don't have to believe the media bullshit that insists that everyone has to be rigid and read off the same page. That is mindless and dumb.

There is strength in allowing for debate. What are we afraid of?

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. I've never used this word "rigidity," nor would I propose it

And I'm with you in theory. hell, you just formulated a better response than the Democratic Party apparatus has been able to muster. Yes, I would love to hear somebody say: "It's not the Democrats who are divided; it's the country. And what's clear is that we better reflect the diversity of thought on this matter than the Republicans, who march in lockstep with the only option that the country doesn't want: 'staying the course' where the course is vague, amorphous, undefined, and without adequate benchmarks for success." Hallelujah! That's a response. But that's not what we have. I'm not for "rigidity" in theory. Hell, I'm not even a big fan of "consensus."

That said, the theoretical state you speak of is all well and good. In theory. The problem with the so-called diversity of opinions is that it is perfectly functional for the virtual state of things prior to an action, but it just doesn't work in action. Debate is favorable, to be sure, but at the end of the day, you actually have to do something, and every action is unified. You can debate with yourself whether you want to get up and get a glass of water forever; the virtual is a multiplicity. But when it comes to action, you either get up or you don't. The actual is singular. This is the weakness that the GOP is playing on. We can praise the merits of debate til the cows come home. I'll be right there with you singing Glory Be. Meanwhile, the Republicans, who have an actual action to perform - however deficient it might be (and yes, it is the most deficient of all possible actions) - are actually performing it.

[TayTay]

24. This buys into the media obsession with unity

on the part of the Democrats. This is a false debate from the get-go. It is the 'horserace' mentality that reduces each argument to who is ahead and who is behind. There is nothing in the debate. It is a mindless repetition of poll numbers. That is all.

The news media does this primarily because it is cheaper than actual analysis. (It costs money to hire people, train them, put them to work searching through speeches, documents and putting them on the road so they can meet and talk with elected officials and candidates.)

This is one of the things that the political blogs can help alleviate. That is why a lot of people come to DU and other boards, so that they can hear about actual issues. There was a series of articles in the WaPo the other day that talked about how the MSM outlets, including newspapers, are losing readership or viewership and the web is picking up readers. The response of the MSM has been to cut jobs and cut investigative journalism in a mad dash to save profits. This is a downward spiral as the newspapers cut out the very thing that gave them life.

I think there is a hunger in the nation for an actual dialogue. I think people are tired of being thought of as stupid and incapable of hearing and argument and mulling it over. I refuse to bow down to this level of debate. I understand that there are people who are so invested in their way of thinking that they can't hear another side. But I do not support pandering to these people. This is a game that cannot be won. We gain nothing from this.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. I hear ya

And those high principles and a token'll getcha on the subway.

[halobeam]

29. Simple phrasing and effective. All dems could say this REPEATEDLY.

"It's not the Democrats who are divided; it's the country...and we represent ALL OF THEM"

[halobeam]

28. All true, IMO... but OP makes valid points too.

Particularly, our diversity of opinion is being "framed" in the simple manner most people understand it. Catchy-phrasy (i.e. cut and run), and they repeat every five minutes. Why throw out what's been working for the past five years?

Everyone in the Dem party can have different views, but they can also bring their response to the cut and run phrases, with a "back at ya" Catchy phrase that is in unison with each other. Howard Dean is excellent in this type of response phrasing/framing..

Now will they get their crap together enough to at least respond EFFECTIVELY to squelch these simplistic lies that are repeating and quite frankly "beating" our asses?

They haven't yet.

I agree with the OP.... they still haven't learned in which ways they can be unified, SIMPLY AND REPEATEDLY. These past two weeks are proof of that.

[TayTay]

31. The Republicans just had two weeks of great press

with everyone in the MSM pushing for them and praising them for being steadfast and unyielding in the pursuit of this occupation.

It did no good. The polls for Bush did not move. The American people have showen, in current polls, that they favor withdrawal plans.

Exactly where is the Bush argument gaining? Show me the voting groups that are buying into this. We know there is a core group of supporters for the Prez and the GOP. Please show me where the arguments of Rove and the Repubs in Congress is gaining ground outside of this group.

I see a party in freefall and a plan for Iraq that has little public support. I see the idea of withdrawal gaining strength. I do not see where the Repub talking points are sweeping America. This is not '04, this is two years and hundreds and hundreds of deaths and injuries in Iraq later. The American people are seeing this. All the spin in the world can't reverse that.

[halobeam]

34. Spin never changes facts, it changes perception of them.

Agree with all your points, I think we are saying much of the same thing. I just think the OP was about "framing" and spin work and responses to it.

The "facts" aren't in dispute, at least in this thread as I see it, unless I'm misunderstanding something here.

[OneBlueSky]

5. the place where Democrats have been unable to "get their . . .

proverbial shit together" is election fraud/election reform . . . with the current system -- voting on corporate machines, votes tabulated by Repug corporations -- we really have no chance in November . . .

and for reasons I truly cannot fathom, the Democrats have done squat to give this issue legs and to at least try to solve it . . . before November . . .

BushCo cannot afford to allow either house of Congress to be controlled by Democrats -- and they won't . . . right now they control everything, and have virtually unlimited resources at their disposal to ensure that election results come out the exactly way they want them to . . .

it happened in 2000 . . .

it happened in 2002 . . .

it happened in 2004 . . .

and you can be damn well sure it's going to happen in 2006 . . .

[Totally Committed]

11. That's because it's the ONE THING everyone on our side can agree with...

the feeling that the elections HAD to be stolen the last time because who in their right mind would have voted for the Bushies and their policies of enriching the rich while waging eternal war.

We need to get everyone on the same page about other sugjects as well.

TC

[tibbiit]

15. I agree with you 100%

I am also amazed at the dem response to obvious vote stealing.
Why would they not be shouting this from rooftops?
It doesnt compute at all.
tib

[zeemike]

18. You are right

And all of this media junk is just to cover the next theft, making us think that we did something wrong that made people vote against there own interest out of some kind of fear of the boogie man.

And at some point we must coincide that the Dems or at least some of them in the leadership position are going along with it by not making the election fraud a big issue as a way of keeping the Neo-Cons from throwing them out of office.

[Totally Committed]

7. The Democrats are the "Big Tent Party"...

this has been both its blessing and its curse. We need to find a way AROUND or THROUGH or OVER the media to get our message out, that's for sure. But first, we have to agree on a message. And, that brings us back to the "Big Tent". I guess we have to answer the question: How do we circle our wagons in this 'Big Tent', and unite under one banner when our own diversity is what drives this Party?

I'm beginning to think that there are the Republicans and then there's everyone who doesn't agree with them, and we are the Party of everyone who doesn't agree with them. So... we can't agree with each other, either. This is our challenge -- to get all these diverse groups with their own agendas to agree on one message and get that message out through a MSM that is, by far, now aligned with the other side.

Any thoughts on how best to unite us and who best to be our voice when our message finally emerges and a candidate that has the guts to take it to the other side relentlessly steps forth would be greatly appreciated.

TC

[halobeam]

32. See post 29....

is this what you mean?

[greekspeak]

9. We will have won them again by July 1

And who knows what will happen by August 1. November is months away. All the blather and ass-kissing, the pandering, threats, wedging....it is just a show. The media does what its owners say, and I have come to the conclusion that there is basically nothing we can do about what is broadcast. We can write a billion letters and e-mails, we can call, bitch, piss, moan, protest, demonstrate, and the MSM will still do whatever is going to make it money and please its RW owners and sponsors.

What will really make a difference is if the Dems can take seats in areas where Pukes don't own and operate crooked voting machines.

[Justice]

10. I totally disagree

Now the dialogue is about how and when we are going to get out. It is not stay the course, as men and women continue to die. It is not about ideology anymore - it is about incompetence - you cannot just say stay the course, because the course has been so poorly planned by Bush et al. I like it when John Kerry says that Iraqis have to save Iraq, not Americans.

Debate and dialogue is good - Americans want to get out of Iraq - debate how to get out - that is all good.

[halobeam]

33. Kerry on senate floor just said a minute ago:

Iraqi's themselves want us to set a timetable for withdrawal, does that mean they are "cut and running on themselves?" LMAO!

Good one, Sen. Kerry.

[OzarkDem]

12. Dems are doing fine, Today Show is propaganda

I saw it too, but I don't blame Dems on this one. It was blatant spin from Russert and the others. They're very concerned that Dems are taking advantage of an issue that hurts the GOP.

[Doctor_J]

14. The MSM will spin anything that happens in favor of

the Repukes. The reason "cut and run" is taking hold is because Rove tells them to repeat it, and not let in anyhting else, and they do it. It doesn't matter what the Dems say or how they say it.

For example, let's see when the whores on the Today show discuss this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2691043

[Mass]

16. They lost nothing, but the MSM is sure quick reading GOP talking points

once again. Is it because the Dems have no talking points or because the media ignore them.

BTW, the Dems are not that divided on Iraq. As Reid said, they all agree on the fact that we need to start to withdraw troops now, they all agree that Bush started this war on false pretenses and has made a mess of it. Why dont we hear all that.

[BeFree]

21. That's about what Kerry said in 2004

Bush started this war on false pretenses and has made a mess of it.

But not many of us got behind that message. Instead we were all over the map. The confusion at the grassroots level caused us to look divided. We now look as unified as we ever have, but the M$M, longing for more division, harks back to those days of division.

Our message is what Kerry has always said:

Bush started this war on false pretenses and has made a mess of it.

[napi21]

19. OH COME ON!!! This is the one thing the Pubs are GREAT AT!

Short memorable sound bites! I do credit Rove for this ability, but YOU don't have to fall for it!

There IS no good answer to Iraq! Should we pull out right away? Sure, I'd love to, BUT WE were the ones who made the damn mess in that Country! Hell, they only have electricity 4-6 hours a day, and the tems are in the 120 degrees+! Their water is contaminated, much of their infrastructure has been destroyed, they're able to pump their oil at less than 1/2 the rate than before we got there, and you still say...it's OK that we just leave?

I agree that we should respond differently to the "cut & run", but to demand that all Dems should be in lock step isnt the answer.

I was listening to Bernie Ward last night (KGO radio) and he was saying that Shrub was RIGHT when he said "mission accomplished". The war is OVER! What we have now is an occupation! The insurgency IS being caused by the people of Iraq wanting the occupiers OUT of their Country! They have a gov't now, their dictator has been removed, and THEY need to take control of THEIR Country! I think we should replace the word "war" with "occupation" in EVERY conversation and statement, and respond to the "cut & run" clip with maybe the Murtha clip of "stay & pay".

My suggestion is to take the amount of $$ that we are spending in Iraq for the next 6 months, give it to the head of the Iraqi gov't to rebuild their Country themselves, and then get out and let them handle it! Unfortunately, I think we DO have to pay for the mess OUR leaders made in that Country, but Iraq needs to take control now too!

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. Uh, I'm not falling for it

But I'm cognizant of the fact that it will probably work.

[sendero]

20. I don't think it's over...

... but in the last few days I do feel it (2006 elections) slipping away.

The right is just damn good at creating a bullshit scenario that lots of people will buy. They are even going as far as trying to use this little bit of momentum to sell the "we found WMDs" meme. And you know what? Plenty of people will buy it.

America can never be better than the average American voter. If the voters cannot see through this haze, we're fucked.

[peaches2003]

23. Average American Voter

The average voter's strong suit is NOT wanting to debate, look at all sides of an issue, or seeing through what is fed to them. Rove is a master at making them feel protected and safe with his bullshit. But it works. They want it simple and easy to understand- that's why "cut and run" is so effective- it paints the Dems as wimps.

[sendero]

25. I agree 100%....

... but I do think the Dems could counter this rhetoric if they put their minds to it. Dean does a pretty good job, but there are precious few who do.

[Totally Committed]

26. Absolutely agreed...

too few on our side willing to step up and refute what The Republicans lie about loudly and proudly. It's because MOST are either too busy worrying about their 2008 "Electability" or they are completely lacking in balls... pick one.

TC

[sendero]

27. I refuse..

... to "pick one" because I'm sure it is both :) :) :)

[wisteria]

30. WE need to let the stations know, that we are not buying into the

crap about C&R and the Dem's divided. We can see through the tactics and are tired of the rhetoric. This is all a diversion because the Republicans have no strategy for winning anything.We need to redeploy to succeed. The media repeated over and over that the Dem's don't have a plan- so now- when we are offering a real debate and a change of course- we are attacked for offering more than one way to win. I for one am tired of it, and will let each and evey station know it's time to get serious about Iraq.

[paulk]

36. despite the best efforts of the MSM to spin things for BushCo

Iraq is not going away.

Americans want a way to get out. They want a plan. At least the Democrats, divided as they are, are talking about it. The Republican's refusal to even debate this subject isn't going to help them in the long run. They can smear and spin - but next week more Americans will die in Iraq. And next month more will die. And more will continue to die in Iraq (and Afghanistan) right on up to the election.

"Stay the course" isn't a plan.