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[NewYorkerfromMass]

1. But they're crying that Kerry won by dirty tricks and undue influence

They are villainizing Kerry in their own eyes. They are justifying their attacks.
Of course, Dean never hewed to the high road to begin with.

[D G]

12. It's true

Dean will either win a primary or have it stolen out from under him. As long as Kerry remains evil incarnate, it's all good. :eyes:

[farmbo]

26. Damn right it's true...Robo-calls at 2:00 am and Push-polling...

from unidentified sources slandering Dean were NOT figments of our imagination...any more than the Osama bin Ladin ads run in S Carolina.

Excuse us if we don't go quietly into the night.

[D G]

35. If Dean was so great, wouldn't he "overcome"?

Proceed as loudly as you like, pointing fingers all the way. It's sure to attract more voters!

[progressivebydesign]

49. Oh.. the way Al Gore was able to overcome? N/T

[LuminousX]

2. To go down without a fight is unbecoming of someone

we are investing our time and energy in to alter the face of American politics. It isn't about Dean, it has never been about Dean. He is the person who saw which way the parade was headed and jumped in front of it. He gave those who could not be heard a way to be heard.

If he goes down, is utterly destroyed by Kerry, by the process, so be it. In this process he has brought us one step closer to the revolution we so desperately need.

[Justitia]

3. smarmy condescension

...and exactly why your candidate holds no appeal for me - turns me off completely, in fact.

So, now that Gov Dean has done all the hard work of taking Bush to task, out in the open, he and all his supporters should just roll over and play dead while your guy waltzes in, unscathed and crowns himself king? Not a chance.

This is exactly why I will not support your candidate - ever.
Not to mention, he will be decimated in the general election.
I'm from Texas, and I've seen how Bu$hCo operates, up close and personal. He'll tear Kerry limb from limb over the next 9 mos.

I'll be voting for Gov Howard Dean, the only candidate to give me a reason to vote. And the only one who has a prayer against the Bu$hCo machine.

[Name removed]

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[Justitia]

7. funny, I see no results of that

All I see from Texas is Kerry enabling Bush, by voting for what Bush wanted.

Or conveniently being "absent" for those things Bush didn't want held up.

I would really like to have seen Kerry make a stand during the Medicare rip-off or the omnibus bill!

Never mind his vote which gave permission for this war-mongering president to do what he did. Sen Kennedy didn't hand it to Bush, why did Kerry????

[Name removed]

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[Justitia]

16. uninformed???? Get your facts straight.

Kerry couldn't be bothered to even VOTE ON THE BILL.

It passed by a slim margin. I stayed up all night to watch, and wondered "Where the hell are our presidential candidates???"

Oh yeah, too busy campaigning to actually do their jobs.

THIS is exactly why your candidate makes me furious.
Thanks for nothing Sen Kerry!

[Forkboy]

20. DU Rule Number 1

If you dont agree you're "uninformed".

[Name removed]

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[Forkboy]

24. Which part about Kerry not voting on the bill is a factual error?

[sangh0]

37. All of it

Kerry voted to filibuster the bill. Since they couldn't get the 40 voted needed to keep the filibuster going, the Dems weren't going to get 50 votes against the bill.

[Name removed]

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[Justitia]

46. so, it's only gestures that count?

not results?

[Justitia]

29. I'm waiting!

Just like I waited for Kerry to stand up to Bush until 6 am that morning!

So, the candidate "who fights valiantly for the citizenry" was yet again a no-show!

And you made no mention of his whereabouts on the omnibus bill - where was he then???

[Forkboy]

34. It certainly isn't you that is uninformed here

I'm waiting too...gotta go soon,hope to see an answer by then :shrug:

[sangh0]

38. Kerry voted to filibuster the Medicare bill

but the Dems lost.

[Justitia]

45. even more reason for Kerry to actually show up & vote

Kerry KNEW this would be a dogfight, especially after the filibuster failed.

He had a duty to be present and do whatever needed doing to stop this sham of a bill from passing. We all know he didn't bother making an appearance.

Sorry, his record on this is what it is, no matter how much lipstick you put on the pig.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

58. No. Before the formal (actual) vote- everyone's vote was known

to each and every Senator, hence, the need for a filibuster.
Then it was a matter of voting for cloture to stop the filibuster, and the 'scumlicans got the votes they needed to override that.
Kerry was there for the cloture vote and left directly after when it was clear the filibuster was killed.
Kerry was absolutely there doing everything he could. He didn't need to waste his time on a pointless vote in a losing cause.

[Justitia]

60. Kerry needed to vote against this

I'm sorry, but after the arm-twisting shakedown in the House, Kerry absolutely should have been there to register his opposition both to the bill and the way it was rammed through.

What could possibly be more important than creating a historical record of your opposition? Running a campaign? Hardly.

He was elected to represent his constituents and he failed them in this regard, as well as the Dem party as a whole.

Like it or not, politicians are evaluated on their voting records.
You may see it as a "pointless vote", but how are we to judge the effectiveness of our congressional representatives on matters as important as the Medicare bill? This vote was the beginning of the dismantling of the New Deal, and Sen Kerry had an obligation to voice his opposition - he chose to campaign instead.

[sistersofmercy]

61. ...

Unfortunately, the posters here who just want to play up the perceived negative aspect of this vote aren't going to get it. Kind of reminds me of Monty Python. The truth behind the complaint is these posters wish Kerry had been there for the vote , not for taking a stand for what is right on a losing cause but quite simply so that he had not been campaigning.

[seaglass]

28. So you don't know that they do vote counts?

Daschle would have told Kerry he needed to stay if his vote was going to make a difference and Kerry would have stayed, same with Lieberman. It was a 54-44 vote, if they had stayed it would have been 52-46. They were there for the more important cloture vote.

As a resident of MA, I'm glad Kerry made the right choice and continued on with his campaign.

[Justitia]

33. convenient cop out

Sorry, if someone is running for POTUS, and runs on "looking out for the little guy" - I expect them to actually show up and make their vote a matter of historical record.

Some sign of disapproval would have at least been an indication where they stood on the issue.

As far as the Medicare bill went, the presence of our THREE presidential candidates could have made all the difference.



edit for spelling

[sangh0]

39. cheap shot

You don't explain how "actually show up and make their vote a matter of historical record" does ANYTHING for "the little guy", yet you insist it be done

Are you always in favor of futility?

Some sign of disapproval would have at least been an indication where they stood on the issue

I guess the vote to filibuster was a vote of approval, right?

As far as the Medicare bill went, the presence of our THREE presidential candidates could have made all the difference.

Yeah, right! The bill would have passed anyway. It got more than 50 votes. It doesn't matter if 49 Senators or 46 Senators voted against.

It made no difference at all

[Forkboy]

36. As a resident of Ma myself

I'm pissed at Kerry.

[seaglass]

53. Honestly because of this vote or because of other reasons?

I get that if you don't support the candidate that this could be an issue you would focus on, I'm just wondering if Kerry leading the effort to fillibuster with Kennedy means anything to you.

[Hawkeye-X]

30. dupe nt

[Hawkeye-X]

32. Kerry: All talk and no action

Yet he didn't show up for the Medicare vote. Dean was right. 19 years in the Senate, and what does Kerry do for healthcare? Absolutely NOTHING! At least Dean delivers what he promised.

Hawkeye-X

[blm]

23. YOU may not see results of Kerry's efforts against the BFEE, but HISTORY

Books will tell the tale of Kerry who is the one lamker who exposed more government corruption than ANY lawmaker in modern history.

Sorry you think that's no big thing. Thankfully, fairminded historians do.

[Eloriel]

54. It would BE a big deal if he'd done anything at all about it since

But he hasn't. It's just something on his resume that his supporters like to pull out every now and then to try to pretend Kerry has some fight in him. He doesn't. He's a careful, cautious, cowardly politician who has to find out which way the wind is blowing before he can speak at all. And THEN he tries to have it both ways, depending on who he's talking to.

Don't try to make Kerry into something he's not. He's a paper tiger -- all talk, no action. Pathetic.

[asthmaticeog]

17. Voting for

PATRIOT, IWR, and NCLB are funny ways of "fighting" the BFEE. I don't even understand why he's running against Bush*. Based on his voting record, it seems to me he likes this administration just fine.

Edit: factual error removed

[Hawkeye-X]

27. So where is Kerry succeeding in this fight?

No? Kerry is just rolling over and playing dead like a good BFEE and S&B lackey.

Think BCCI trial - it went nowhere.

Hawkeye-X

[sangh0]

40. In NH and IA so far

Where is Dean succeeding in this fight, or is there a different standard for Dean?

[demnan]

6. Welcome to DU, Lady Texan!

:hi:

[w4rma]

9. Hello from Virginia. I totally agree with you, Lady Texan.

Except for the "ever" part. :hi:

[buckeye1]

25. What?

If Dean can't beat Edwards or Kerry how can he beat Bush? I think Dean has all show and very little go. I have no dog in this fight,I will vote for Clark tuesday.

[LizW]

43. You go, Lady Texan!

Well said, and welcome to DU! :hi:

[ShaneGR]

4. When he got rid of Trippi, I realized it was all about him

Trippi showed up in Vermonet, middle-aged with severe Diabetes, and busted his ass making that guy into a real candidate. And what did he get for it?

Read the GQ magazine article about Trippi and Dean.

[nomaco-10]

15. You're so wrong....

It has never been all about Dean. If you knew anything about his campaign, which would be better characterized as a movement, you would know it's all about us. Us, being his supporters, us being you, me and anybody else that wants their country back. Us, being allowed to vote and make the descision whether or not he accepts matching funds, us writing letters, us driving the campaign, us swinging the bat to raise money, us going door to door. His campaign is "people powered" and has been from day one. It's not about Joe Trippi or even Dean himself.
All of the campaigns have had shake ups, Kerry's being the most notable. Clark has had some shake ups and Kucinich just hired Will Pitt, but for some reason it's as if Dean, as usual is all anyone wants to talk about in this regard.
I've seen Joe interviewed a dozen times and he has made it crystal clear that he still supports Howard and will do everything he can to work for Dean outside the campaign to make sure he gets elected. Too much has been made of this. Joe Trippi is still as enthusiastic about Dean as he was the first day he started and it makes some of his detractors especially in the media crazy. Dean, Dean, Dean.... LOL

[welshTerrier2]

8. somewhat disagree

as a kucinich-kerry supporter, i somewhat disagree with your characterization of Dean's current behavior ...

to the extent your remarks focus on his comments about Clark and Kerry being Republicans or fundraising like Republicans, I completely agree ...

However, Dean did a fantastic job on MTP yesterday and for that reason i think you've overstated when you said "Dean is close to throwing everything away ..." ... doing a great job on an important show like MTP is not throwing everything away ...

so ... i think to the extent that you highlighted his intra-party conduct, i agree with you ... but you, too, could have been more gracious by acknowledging Dean's excellent combativeness and skill on yesterday's show ... we all need to start healing some of the wounds no matter who's ox is getting gored (no pun intended ...)

[Zech Marquis]

11. hear hear!

excellent posting, well said! :toast: Instead of being above the mudslinging, Dean has gone head first into it.

[Duder]

13. Is that all there is?

'IF things keep going the way they are, the Democrats will nominate for president a man who was wrong on the Iraq war, wrong on the Bush tax cuts, wrong on the Bush education disaster, and wrong on the Patriot Act. And despite intimations of immutability by the media, all this has happened many, if not most, Democrats being unaware of the aforementioned.

In short, the Democrats are preparing to nominate someone who agreed with George Bush on many of the major issues of the day and has only lately discovered that this may not have been such a good idea and so is making gentle adjustments in both his opinions and autobiography. Not that the latter couldn't use some help, since the most interesting elements of it, according to the candidate's own repeated testimony, occurred more than three decades ago.

It may be the best that the Democrats can do, but they should realize that what they have is not so much an opponent of George Bush as a replacement should the president do himself in.' --Sam Smith

[cally]

14. The part I've most disliked about Dean is

his constant criticism of other Dems and then whining when he is attacked. His current behavior is just more of the same. I agree that this behavior marginalizes him and his supporters. I wish he would stop and run on the many important ideas he has.

[ChiefJoseph]

31. I agree

There seems to have been some cognitive dissonance in that regard.

[arendt]

18. This is beneath you, Pete.

> Kerry, who won Iowa and NH fair and square makes

Yeah, the media lands the pre-mix audio scream speech
on Dean, but Kerry won NH fair and square. Donnez-moi une break!

I will be the first to admit the Dean campaign made a
lot of political tactical errors in NH. But, the media
was breaking his legs.

You seem to want Dean to just go away, like Kerry who
early on said "Dean, Dean, Dean". Just couldn't understand
why the man wouldn't quit.

I've got news for you the Dean campaign is the John Havlicek
of Democratic Politics. His people believe that people,
not special interests, should run the Democratic Party.

I've never worked before in politics. I thought it was for
professionals. Now I see my mistake. It is professionals
like Kerry who put corporate interests first, even when
they are nominally Dems. In the Dean movement, Movement
is more important than Dean. Dean serves as a focus, but
the movement must stay organized.

If Dean loses and says support Kerry. I will. And I will
work for his success. But I'm keeping my membership card
in the movement.

The Democratic Party cannot become another rigid, centralized
party like the GOP. Or, do you want all dissent in this
party suppressed because we are "at war" with the GOP?


> It gives the media more fodder to bash him...

And, precisely what did the Kerry campaign say when it was
down and the media had annointed Dean? Did Kerry say that
it was OK to "bash" Dean? Two lilly-white Northern states
have voted. I'm not saying Dean will do well in the South,
but Kerry might not either. So, why should Dean quit?
And he is making honest points that Kerry's rhetoric has
no basis in fact. We hate that when * does it. Giving
Kerry a pass on it just sets us up to be called hypocrites
in the GE.

What is wrong with an old-fashioned convention, where
interest groups reach a compromise? I do not like the
media telling me when the race is over or which candidates
I should ignore.

Although I do not support Clark, I think he is getting
non-coverage at this crucial moment - the same way Dean
got negative coverage. And, BTW, I think there is something
to the correlation of Dean's negative coverage and the
call by Dean to "re-regulate corporate America, and
especially the media".

The longer the Dem race goes, the more *free* publicity we
get, the more the public gets to see what *honest* campaigning
(instead of BuschCo lies and smears) looks like.

As Kerry people told Dean: if your candidate can't take
these mild attacks from a Dem, how are they going to stand
up to the GOP hate machine? You don't think the GOP have
access to exactly the same facts Dean has?

Methinks your arguments are polemic rather than objective.
That is your prerogative, as it is mine to call you on them.

Peace and a gentlemanly discussion, I beg you,

arendt

[Name removed]

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[kayob1]

19. Here's something I don't understand.

and I will admit I am uninformed so you don't have to answer my question like that.

My daughter-in-law was in the Army in 2002, stationed at Fort Riley, Kansas. She told me her whole unit and half of Fort Riley had been replaced by reserves in September 2002; they had all been sent to Kuwait.

Wasn't the IWR vote in October? Isn't that correct?

I guess you could say they sent them all to Kuwait "just in case" but she is a paralegal - why would they send a whole unit of lawyers to Kuwait "just in case?" Maybe they were planning on suing Saddam?

That's the main reason I don't buy the "I was misled" stuff. Fort Riley is huge. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me (having been in the military 10 years myself - and during the Iran hostage thing) that they would send half the frickin' base to Kuwait if there was any question at all about invading Iraq.

Maybe you could clear that up for me. Thanks in advance for your assistance.

[CWebster]

21. oh, you must mean his performance with Russert?

"A more statesmanlike and gracious attitude"...like Kerry has demonstrated throughout his entire campaign?

Now expecting everyone to bow down and kiss the ass of what we have been raging against for 3 years. You see it isn't about just Bush--it is those who wore those pink tutus for months and months, now suddenly stealing Dean's message as if they can steal his backbone.

[Eloriel]

44. Oh, c'mon, Pete, don't be silly

This is politics -- this is what the frontrunner gets. Dean got it in spades for MONTHS. Now you're upset? What about that "bring it on" thread you started yesterday?

Why on earth do you think that after having stolen Dean's entire message Kerry shouldn't get dinged -- and dinged again? Do you think he's somehow above reproach and has no flaws? The reason I despise him is his flaws, which are legion.

And I wouldn't exactly call his Iowa and NH wins "fair and square," with all the dirty tricks and political games that went on. That you do concerns me, frankly. He won, true enough, but calling it fair and square rankles a bit and does nothing for your credibility.

Here's a clue: Dean's attacks are plenty fair and square. If Kerry (and several others) can engage in the type of dirty tricks that have gone on, Dean does himself NO harm by pointing out Kerry's ample sins and failings. At least he's man enough to do it himself instead of playing dirty tricks behind the scenes and under the radar, and big enough (so far) not to point out that Kerry HAS no message of his own.

LOL - and since when have you ever been concerned about the media having "more fodder to bash him and to trivialize the importance of what he's added to this election cycle." Please show me where you've ever been concerned about that before where for Dean, so I won't consider this newfound concern as self-serving as it appears to be. IOW, got link(s)?

Anyway, be careful you don't slip into hypocrisy here, Pate -- you're getting a little close. You may want to go back and read that thread of yours from yesterday.

[Name removed]

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[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. I just don't see how someone can do all these things and then

unite the country. What happens when a foreign leader makes Dean angry? Will he call them names?

[CWebster]

52. Garbage. I am glad that Dean is still angry

and speaking out and not rolling over for this pompous boring phony who seems to believe he is entitled. He would be nothing if the media didn't become his own political mouthpiece.

I am angrier than ever and glad that Dean is still fighting.

[Eloriel]

56. NSMA -- just think for a minute

Dean got re-elected for 5 terms, even in a very tight 3-way race AFTER he signed Civil Unions the last time, and has a very impressive record of accomplishment. AND, many of his former political opponents are lined up right behind him in this race.

Those things don't happen if you're a hot head who can't work with others.

You've bought the media caricature of Dean. Not prudent.

[LizW]

48. What a familiar ring that has

"But I find his recent behavior sad for him, for his followers and for the party. A more statesmanlike and gracious attitude would cement his contribution to the process and would do honor to the hard work his supporters did (and continue to do)."

Where have I heard this before?

Oh! I remember now! It was around November and December of 2000.

:puke:

[progressivebydesign]

51. Bingo!

I was thinking that same thing.. and had just posted a response to that effect. When someone quipped that if Dean was so awesome, why can't he "overcome it"? Hmmmm. the way Al Gore overcame the negative media attacks and lies, and eventual hack job on the election results? Sore Loserman indeed!! Threads like these are just opportunities for people to attack Howard Dean. It's a sport I guess.

[stickdog]

50. Why don't you direct this complaint to Terry McAuliffe?

Or would the irony be too thick?

[JVS]

55. Use it or lose it.

[On the Road]

59. Pete, I Have Wondered the Same Thing

but I simply do not trust the depiction of the candidate any longer.

The most recent speech I heard from Dean was the town hall meeting before the NH primary. It was wonderful and positive. It would not surprise me any longer to see that speech characterized as "Dean Goes Negative!"

If it's based on hearing a whole interview or speech, that's fair. But if you've been attracted to Dean, please withold judgement if someone else is characterizing him.