Need help debunking a wing-nut

[mrgorth]

On another board a total wing nut is citing an article claiming that Al Gore gave a speech in Saudi Arabia where he said that post 9/11 the US govt. was indiscriminantly rounding up and abusing arab citizens. If he is right I would say that is a bit of an exaggeration on the part of President Gore and probably not the wisest thing to do considering PR concerns in the area. However, if the article or said wing nut is taking this out of context I'm happy to tell him to go find a spider hole to crawl into. Here's the article:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Saudi_Gore.html

[NMDemDist2]

1. I don't see anything false in Gore's remarks. make the RWer prove

where he's wrong on any count!

admitting mistakes (ie that we were wrong to round up arabs, or wrong to treat them badly) is a postition of strength not weakness.

[Bridget Burke]

2. The US government did round up & abuse Arab citizens.

Also Arab legal residents. As well as non-Arab Muslims.

Post-9/11 Immigrant Roundup Backfired - Report
by Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON - Measures take by the U.S. administration against Arab and Muslim immigrants after the Sep. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks against New York and the Pentagon have not only failed to protect U.S. security, but may have made it more vulnerable, according to a major report released here Thursday.

The round-up and detention of more than 1,200 immigrants after the attacks were particularly abusive, says the report by the Washington-based Migration Policy Institute (MPI) an influential think tank.

It said that the government's efforts to depict some of those who were detained as terrorists were simply wrong. ”The only charges brought against them were actually for routine immigration violations or ordinary crimes,'' concludes the 165-page report, ''America's Challenge: Domestic Security, Civil Liberties and National Unity After September 11''.

www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0627-03.htm

These detentions were discussed at DU. Gore criticized the Bush Regime's actions--which are quite well known in Saudi Arabia. But he pointed out that they did not reflect the viewpoint of the American people.

I see nothing wrong with this speech.

[onenote]

3. I've seen it posted that he said that

But I haven't seen a transcript of the speech so I can't confirm he said it or the context of the statement if it was made.

onenote

[sandnsea]

4. Good for Al

It wouldn't be like it was a secret in Saudi Arabia anyway, so it probably wouldn't be a bad idea for somebody from the US to tell them we aren't all lunatics like Bush. Yes, we indiscriminately rounded up Arab citizens after 9/11, and held them without lawyers and family notification. That's abusing people's civil and human rights. We had Arabs on the Canadian border filing for political asylum into Canada. That's what happened, good for Al for saying so.

[hwmnbn]

5. I guess it depends on what your definition of

exageration is. In Afghanistan, the "sweeps" netted most of the Gitmo prisoners. In Iraq, the "sweeps" netted most of the Abu Graib prisoners. The prisoners caught in surgical strikes is miniscule.

Regardless, is he arguing on the truthfulness of Gore's statement, or on the wiseness of it from a PR standpoint?

If the latter, the truth is not necessarily good PR. It is always the truth.

[ET Awful]

6. The US was rounding up and mistreating (if not abusing) arab citizens

Hundreds of them were detained. That's a fact.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/01/1520252

[papau]

7. Need Sources including US Gov reports on the topic?

The cites are from a paper I just read:


The Muslim News. “Attack on America—An Islamic Perspective.” 9/27/01 www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?sub=10148

“2001 FBI Hate Crimes Statistics Act.” Anti-Defamation League. 2004. http://www.adl.org/Learn/hate_crimes_laws/HCSA_FBI.asp

“Abdeen Jabara: Champion from and of the Heartland.” CaféArabica. http://www.cafearabica.com/people/people12/peojabara1.htmlAbdul-Malik, Johari.

“Civil Rights Concerns in the Metropolitan Washington, D.C., Area in the Aftermath if the September 11, 2001 Tragedies.”

Ch.6: Fears and Concerns of Affected, At-Risk Communities. www.usccr.gov/pubs/sac/dc0603/ch6.htm"Abuse of the Patriot Act."

The San Francisco Gate. Oct. 8, 2003. http://www.sfgate.com/cgibin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/10/08/EDG L626TD81.DTL Altheide, David L. Creating Fear: News and the Construction of Crisis. New York: Walter de Gruyter, Inc., 2002.

“Attack on America—An Islamic Perspective.” The Muslim News. 9/27/01 www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?sub=101Nu’man, Fareed H.

“The Muslim Population in the U.S.—‘A Brief Statement’.” American Muslim Council. Dec. 1992.

Anti-Defamation League. www.adl.org/adl.aspArzu, Lila. “Vandals Scrawl Racial Slurs, Damage Vehicles on Olney Street.” The Washington Post. October 13, 2003.

The Association of Muslim Lawyers. http://www.aml.org.uk/resources/islamophobia.htmBa-Yunus Ilyas and Siddiqui, M. Moin. A Report on Muslim Population in the United States of America. New York: Center for American Muslim Research and Information, 1998. Brill, Steven.

After: How America Confronted the September 12 Era. New York: Simon & Schuster, 2003.

Bush, George W. Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People. TheWhite House. 9/20/01. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.htmlCalhoun, Craig, et.al. Understanding September 11. New York : New Press : Distributed by W.W. Norton, 2002

“Despite American Newspaper Apology, Islamophobia Still Evident from September 11 Investigation.” The Egyptian Organization for Human Rights. 4/21/2003. www.eohr.org/PRESS/2003/1-4.HTMDorsey, Tom.

“Do You Really Care Who Holds No. 1 Spot?” The Courier Journal. 1/30/02. http://www.courier-journal.com/features/columns/dorsey/fe20020130dorsey.htmlDutta, Gautam.

“Civil Rights Concerns in the Metropolitan Washington, D.C., Area in the Aftermath if the September 11, 2001 Tragedies.” Ch.6: Fears and Concerns of Affected, At-Risk Communities. www.usccr.gov/pubs/sac/dc0603/ch6.htm

Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting. www.fair.org
Fenwick, Ben. “Muslim Girl Suspended From Oklahoma School Over Scarf.” Reuters. October 11, 2003

“Fingerprinting Proposal is Discriminatory, Say Muslims.” Media Review Net. June 5, 2002. http://www.mediareviewnet.com/FINGERPRINTING%20PROPOSAL%20IS%20DISCRIMINATORY%20SAY%20MUSLIMS.htm

Forum Against Islamophobia and Racism. www.fairuk.orgFritsch, Steve. “The Muslim American Community: Two Years After 9-11.” Queen City Forum. November 1, 2003. http://www.queencityforum.com/FritschArchive06.htmlFuller, Steve. Looking for Sociology after 11 September. October 17, 2001. http://www.socresonline.org.uk/6/3/fuller.htmlGokay, Bulent and Walker, R.B.J. 11 September 2001: War, Terror and Judgement. London, Portland, OR: Frank Cass, 2003. Goldstein, Amy. “Paige Calls NEA a ‘Terrorist’ Group.” Washingtonpost.com. 2/24/04. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wpdyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A64712-2004Feb23¬Found=trueHalliday, Fred. Two Hours that Shook the World: September 11, 2001: Causes and Consequences. London: Saqi Books, 2002. Hasan, Asma Gull. American Muslims. New York: The Continuum International Publishing Group Inc., 2002.

Hendi, Yahya. Civil Rights Concerns in the in the Metropolitan Washington, D.C. Area in the Aftermath of the September 11, 2001 Tragedies. Ch. 3: “Understanding Islam in America in the Aftermath of September 11.” www.usccr.gov/pubs/sac/dc0603/ch3.htm visited 10/21/2003 Henry, Ray. “Teen Gets 7 ½ Years For Attack on Student.” The Standard Times. March 20, 2004. http://www.queencityforum.com/FritschArchive06.htmlHenzell-Thomas, Jeremy. The Language of Islamophobia. Forum Against Islamophobia and Racism. September 28, 2003. http://65.39.144.73/ISLAM/misc/phobia.htmHershberg, Eric and Moore, Kevin W. Critical views of September 11 : Analyses fromAround the World. New York, NY: New Press, 2002. Honest Reports. www.honestreports.com/islamophobia.asp"INS Detention Standard: Detainee Classification System." http://uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/classif.pdf Islam in the United States—a Tentative Ascent: A Conversation with Yvonne Haddad. U.S. Department of State, International Information Programs. http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/islam/hadad.htmJohnson, Peter. “This Just In: The Future of News.” UA Today. 3/14/04. www.usatoday.com/life/2004-03-14-pew-report_x.htmKick, Russ. 50 Things You’re Not Supposed To Know. New York, NY: The Disinformation Company, Ltd, 2003. Leonard, Karen Isaksen. Muslims in the United States. New York, NY: Russell Sage Foundation, 2003. Lesch, David W. The Middle East and the United States. Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 2003. Lewis, Bernard. The Middle East and The West. New York: Harper Torchbooks, 1964. Lobe, Jim. “Iraq Blotted Out Rest of the World in 2003.” Oneworld.net. 1/7/04. www.oneworld.net/article/view/76280/1/McAlister, Melanie. Epic Encounters. Berkeley and Los Angeles, CA: University of California Press, Ltd. 2001. McGuckin, Frank. Terrorism in the United States. New York: The H.W. Wilson Company, 1997.

Mehdi, Beverlee Turner. The Arabs in America 1492-1977. Dobbs Ferry, NY: Oceana Publications, 1978. Mikkelsen, Randall. “Bush Takes on Christian Right Over Anti-Islam Words.” Middle East Information Center. November 13, 2001 http://middleeastinfo.org/article1607.htmlMiller, Abraham H. Terrorism: The Media and the Law. New York: Transnational Publishers, Inc., 1982. “Misperceptions, the Media and the Iraq War.” The PIPA/Knowledge Networks Poll.10/2/03. http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf“Muslim Groups Angered By Raids.” CBS News.com. March 22. 2002. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/22/attack/main504366.shtmlNadwi, Shaikh Riyad. “Attack on America—An Islamic Perspective.” The MuslimNews. 9/27/01 www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?sub=101Presidential Remarks. U.S. Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division. Sept. 26 and 17, 2001. http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/legalinfo/bushremarks.htmlPyszczynski, Tom, et.al. In the Wake of 9/11: The Psychology of Terror. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association, 2003. “Religion and Politics: Contention and Consensus: Growing Number Says IslamEncourages Violence Among Followers.” The PEW Research Center. 07/24/03. http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=189 visited 2/26/04. Robinson, B.A. “Verbal Attacks on Muslims By: Graham, Buckley, Hinn, Falwell, Robertson, Swaggart & Baldwin.” ReligiousTolerance.org. 2001, 2003. www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter18b.htmRoss, Wendy. “Bush at Islamic Center Urges Tolerance towards American Muslims.” Islam For Today. September 17, 2001. http://www.islamfortoday.com/bush01.htmThe Runnymede Trust. www.runnymedetrust.orgSabir, Nadirah Z. “A Year Lateer, Exploring What it Means to be an American and to be a Muslim.” The Muslim News. Oct. 9, 2002. www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?sub=177Said, Edward. “Arabs, Islam and the Dogmas of the West.” The New York Times Book Review, 31. Oct, 1976. Said, Edward. Orientalism. London: Pantheon Books, 1978. Said, Edward. “Orientalism 25 Years Later: Worldly Humanism v. the Empire-Builders.”

Counterpunch. 8/4/03 http://www.counterpunch.org/said08052003.htmlSardar, Ziauddin. Orientalism. Buckingham, Philadelphia: Open University Press: 1999. Sayyid, Bobby S. A Fundamental Fear: Eurocentrism and the Emergence of Islamism. London; New York: Zed Books, 1997.Shah, Mowahid. “The FBI and the Civil Rights of Arab-Americans.” ADC Issues. Issue 5. 1986. Simons, Thomas W., Jr. Islam in a Globalizing World. Stanford, California: Stanford University Press, 2003. Singh, Rajwant. “Civil Rights Concerns in the Metropolitan Washington, D.C., Area in the Aftermath if the September 11, 2001 Tragedies.” Ch.6 Fears and Concerns of Affected, At-Risk Communities. www.usccr.gov/pubs/sac/dc0603/ch6.htmSmith III, Ted J., Lichter, S. Robert and Louis Harris and Associates, Inc. What the People Want from the Press. Washington, DC: Center for Media and Public Affairs, 1997. Stogsdill, Sheila K. “Muslim Girl’s Father Plans Lawsuit Over School Rule.” The Oklahoman. October 11, 2003. Swanson, Vincent J. “Office Break-In at Prince George’s Muslim Association Raises Concerns About Post September 11thBacklash.” The Sentinel. March 20, 2004. http://www.thesentinel.com/280079623702626.phpTalbott, Strobe and Chanda, Nayan. The Age of Terror. Basic Books, 2001. “Terrorist Attacks on Americans: 1979-1988.” pbs online. 2001. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/etc/cron.html“Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.” The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. 1/15/97. http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/vii.htmlUniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT ACT) Act of 2001. http://uscis.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/inserts/publaw/publaw-24312?f=templates&fn=documentframe.htm#publaw-pl10756. 10/26/01 “U.S. is Battling Satan” BBC News. 10/17/03. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3199212.stm53
“Verbal Attacks on Muslims by: Graham, Buckley, Hinn, Falwell, Robertson, Swaggart & Baldwin.” ReligiousTolerance.org. Visited 9/17/2003. www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter18b.htmW. Shora, Kareem. American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. “Civil Rights Concerns in the Metropolitan Washington, D.C., Area in the Aftermath if the September 11, 2001 Tragedies.” Ch.6: Fears and Concerns of Affected, At-Risk Communities. www.usccr.gov/pubs/sac/dc0603/ch6.htmWhite, Bill. “Tiny Pro-War at Lincoln Memorial.” Overthrow.com. 3/23/03. http://www.overthrow.com/lsn/news.asp?articleID=4137Wilson, Jeff. “Islamic rights group files FCC complaint over LA radio skit.” The Mercury News. March 19, 2004. http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/peninsula/8229299.htmYazbeck Haddad, Yvonne. Muslims and the West: from Sojourners to Citizens. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press, 2002. i“Christian leader condemns Islam: Preacher Franklin Graham Calls Islam ‘Wicked, Violent,’” MSNBC Nightly News. www.msnbc.com/news/659057.aspii“Verbal Attacks on Muslims by: Graham, Buckley, Hinn, Falwell, Robertson, Swaggart & Baldwin.” ReligiousTolerance.org. Visited 9/17/2003. www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter18b.htmiiiSabir, Nadirah Z. p. 4

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/06/16/usdom8773.htm

[Viva_La_Revolution]

8. page 28 of "Fog Facts" by Larry Beinhart states...

"The Harper's Index collects statistics to wonder at. This pair is from April 2005:

*Number of US residents convicted of "international terrorism" between fall of 2001 and fall 2003: 184

*Median sentence given, in days: 14"